So if you take a single shot black powder rifle, convert it to a repeating black powder rifle, then convert it to a smokeless powder 40 years later, then drag it though multiple wars, then give it to semi trained troops in a harsh environment, then you let it rust for 100 years, your rifle might not be good anymore. I will keep that in mind.

I found one of these in my local gun shop. It had the chamber welded along with a weld on the firing pin hole . It had the words "don't fire" carved into the stock. Someone really did not want someone to fire it.

Quoted to me at a gunshow as I was buying a Vetterli, "Do you want a leash to go with that dog?"

The Italian Vetterli 1870/87/15. This fusion of Vetterli, Vitali, Mannlicher, and Salerno isn't a weapon of war. It's an experience.

I have this rifle. My great grand father bought a lamp and this was the base of the lamp lol. All they did was have a base the boot stock sat in and make shift light fixture at the end of barrel. my grand father inherited it and pulled the lamp apart and just kept the rifle. Then my dad got it. No body knew what it was my dad gave it to me and about 3 years ago I finally pieced its history together to find out it was this rifle.

The rifle still looks like something you'd see a sand person holding in Star Wars.

I still want a T-shirt that says "The Vetterli is bad, but it's better than a stick."

A moment of silence and a glass of wine for the fallen guns.

The one I bought came out of an estate. The man had owned it since 1940. It was still covered in grease inside and out from the arsenal rework from 1915.

In Fairness to this gun, nobody expected someone would be firing one 100 years later. As you said it was an emergency conversion.

Spiders? In my rifle? It's more likely than you think.

I think that might be a new record for "War were Declared" for these episodes.

This is the best conversion of an older rifle to something new that I’ve seen on this show

When this gun came out, tieing an onion to your belt was still high fashion

"Always keep an eye out for any spiders that might want to be living in your rifle." That's just sound life advice.

So I guess we have a couple of Anvil episodes to look forward to as Mark repairs a couple of self-destructed Vetterli rifles?

Glad to see Mae is alright :)

When Steam Punk fad was in vogue, this was a popular accessory. I saw one with all sorts of copper and brass attachments to make it look even more Victorian Era.

You and Ian are the best KZfaq channels

Great work guys thank you for allowing all of us to learn in a fun way. Greetings from up north🇨🇦🇨🇦

I want to say to all of you team in this series production have been doing a fantastic job in every episode. The level of detail, professionalism, and making sure to never let any bias you have or people have about certain guns influence your reviews is at a position so few gun documentaries or other online youtubers for guns can match. Be proud of yourselves and keep doing your good work. Congratulations on the number of subscribers all of you. I too suggest all those watching to share, drop a like to the video, and comment to help the channel grow. (I am not sure, but I have heard commenting does help garnish more attention from sponsors, youtube itself, or something good in helping the channel grow larger. I can't remember what it was, but it is something good.)

A new C&Rsenal? lemme just stop rewatching this episode of The Great war!

It explodes AND it has spiders in it???

Had one of these... Considered it a white elephant in my collection. It left in a series of trades that netted me my SVT-40. Definitely don't miss it.

I have been around the Vetterli modelM1870/87/15 for more than 50 years.My Father bought me one when I was 15 years old .I have been shooting it as long as I have owned it .I have every version of these old rifles and 6 of the long infantry rifles.They all shoot fine no issues .The safety points you have mentioned are however valid.The points I would like to make is that these rifles were converted under a war time emergency act.They however not considered a last ditch emergency weapon but was officially known as substitute standard Rifle for infantry model 1870 /87/15 and they were most definitely issued to front line units from 1917 on ,and you are right they saw heavy service during WW 2 in Africa .I have been a collector and real gun smith for many years .These rifle were sold off in 1960 as scrap many of them of them tinkered with by people bolts miss matched old parts replaced with other old parts so on and so on.Not unlike many 19 th Century ilitar These rifles lack the safety engineering of later designs they can be extremely dangerous if all is not in order.Ammunition is major cause for concern most modern ammunition for the Carcano is not safe for the vetterli the rifle is designed to and proofed by Italian government to shoot the M1891 Carcano ammunition both Norma and PPU ammunition exceed normal service pressure and velocity of standard carcano M91 Italian Ammunition ok for a carcano though many don’t shoot well with it.Military surplus if you find it is to old can be dangerous and unreliable .One more thing is bullets their are real issues with bore size I have acquired a large supply of pulled surplus 160 grain carcano bullets one hundred were measured at random of the thousands I have acquired the have an average diameters of .265 not .267 or .268 the. 267/268 diameter bullets can be Dangerous in both the Carcano and most assuredly the old vetterli .In the case of the vetterli never use .267/.268 years ago I developed a good load for my vetterli rifles works well in all them norma or ppu cartridge cases CCI or winchester ,Remington large rifle primmer 27.grains IMR 4895 129 gain Hornady 6.5 .264 dia. Spitzer non boat tail velocity 1900 fps cases and the rifles are not stressed by this load is very very accurate .Pointed6.5 bullets work fine in these rifles however boat tail bullets do not work well at all give vary poor accuracy.I have been using the above load for many years it is also accurate in my carcanos even the cavalry carbines Italian 6.5 rifle s generally works fine keep your velocity’s to well under 2000 fps

I'm kinda curious as to if black powder loaded 6.5 would run more reliably and safely in these. Burns slower with a lower pressure, with a lower squib chance.

At some point you have to cut back on the forward slashes in your designations.

I wonder why no one thought to say "Do we really need the last eight or ten inches of barrel? Let's cut it back."

I've been waiting for the Mosin Nagant M91 for so damn long... Great video as always although I love the deep dive into these I'd love to see WWII after.

You are way braver than I am for shooting that rifle, Mae. Especially while watching the little puff of gas blow back towards you. I also noticed how rough looking the action was while working it. Is that typical of all the Vetterli-Carcano-Mannlicher-not-so-much-Vitali 1870/87/15 rifles? I remember fiddling around with one I found at a gun shop last year and good god that thing was finnicky in the bolt department. It was loose and prone to tilting to the sides causing it to lock up a bit unless you gave it a bit of a wiggle and be more slow and deliberate when closing it.

Haha after my last comment, I knew this was going to be next. I love these videos lots of good info

This is my second time watching this, and even knowing the outcome, seeing Mae fire this thing was terrifying.

Well you wanted to know, I have one in beautiful condition. It also seems that instead of going to Africa, it wound up in Spain as it has a Spanish Arsenal stamp (or at least that is what I was told I haven't found a good resource yet to confirm the stamp myself) The Bolt while a bit stiff isn't horrible and the bore is real nice. The only issue with the chamber is some old oil residue in it.

"it's STILL a terrible rifle, but still (barely though) better than a stick..."

Marvelous...Thanks so much for this video. I've owned one of these rifles for decades, but only recently have devoted any time to this old beast. Interesting history! I'm very pleased to learn about this in detail, finally. Also, while I have had mine out to shoot ( it does...did...this time) I have a new appreciation for the potential dynamics involved.

just bought an 1882 model-cleaned it and inspected the bolt and barrel-ran 12 rds though it-no issues accurate-clip had issues falling out. used 6.5x52 carcano softpoint made by prc. good luck-love the gun and history great c& r

Great job Othais. It's nice to see all of those Patreon bucks going to use. Keep it up.

Rusty Chambers is the name of my elected representative.

I just bought one of these. Sad to hear it won't handle commercial loads. Really wanted to take it right out to shoot.

Once again: Outstanding!

Finally the bore conversion process

25:33 holy cow. Thanks for risking your faces for the firing footage :O

Well Othais, you made my night.

I almost picked one up on Sunday; Thanks for the heads up. (Definitely a great wallhanger!)

One of these rifles showed up in my garage Sat. 5/7/22, along with some machine gun parts. I cleaned it and hung it on the wall above three other Italian shorter rifles. Will never be fired.. PJH

Thanks, for another great episode.

You're not terrible at butchering the languages... You're very good... at butchering them 😉

Sorry I am a year late to the party but I wanted to throw in my 2 Cents concerning this rifle, having owned several over the years. I believe that the biggest problem you had with these rifles failing is the bore diameter. I am not sure if you used surplus 6.5 Carcano ammunition or handloads or a combination of the two? However something to be aware of is that the bore diameter on most of these rifles is between .263 and .265. Standard 1891 Carcano (and the later models) have a bore diameter of anywhere between .267 up to .270. The two 70/87/15's that I currently own both have a bore diameter of approx~ .2638. My guess is that if you were using the "proper" sized bullets for the modern 1891 Carcano then you were creating an extremely high pressure situation in the 70/87/15 due to undersized bore thus causing catastrophic failure. Just something to think about.

Thank you for this. I found a nice vetterli 1870/87/15 with a very smooth action. I'm a little worried about shooting it though. I'll have to do more research on proper loading. On the plus side, it's heavy enough to make a great club.

I own one. 1877 in 6.5 Carcano, serial #UV7939 with matching stock same serial number. Very good condition for it's age.

Hey othais,are you going to do a video on the belgian 1889 mauser/ottoman 1890 mauser?

Just started re watching this one as i have picked up an 1870/67/15 and Othias talked about spiders living in the wood fillers around the mag. And low and behold, there is a dead spider right in there on mine. He sure does read his books well!

33:16 Just bought a pretty one! Living in France and sharing a border with Italy has its upsides. Sometimes.

A twenty inch bayonet on the end of that thing is scary, ideal for guarding POWs and civilians.

The ' provvisorio' indicates that these were ad-hoc workshops set up by the state arsenals, probably attached to artillery establishments (Artiglieria) ...

I just ordered one of these, I’ve seen a few videos of these and Mae’s is the only one of seen with blow by

3:56 the gun got mad you hit it on the table and ran away before 4:05. I think. Or maybe different cuts. But I'm pretty sure these old rifles have feelings, too!

Great description of your issues...

One thing I would like to see that shouldn’t add to your expense of these videos, adding the point of aim Mae is holding to see how well she is aiming. Thanks love the history lesson.

Awesome video! I have one of these in surprisingly nice shape (no AOI brand, go figure) and the action, while still pretty nasty, is a lot smoother than yours seems to be. And to play devils advocate for the gun, I feel like even if the Italians were aware the conversion was marginal at best, they probably only expected them to last the duration of the war. And maybe that was all they figured they needed at the time.

11:45 Does the ejection port look crude? _Really_ crude?

I must insist @C&Rsenal , you cant put this Piece and the Reichsrevolver on the same Place. The Reichsrevolver might be Clumsy, outdated and slow, but it is ABSOLUTELY Safe and Reliable. Greetings from a big Reichsrevolver Fan :D

Where should we go to view all your videos if KZfaq decides to can your channel? I don't want to lose this series.

superb video as usual, one very little remark: "Carcano" has the accent on the first "a" keep going!

I’m looking at one of these at the moment.. gotta think on it for a while more

You Guys so so so ROCK! I know this weapon. and others using the Vettali magazine conversion (Dutch Beaumont) it is cool. and Othias KNOWS HIS GUNS. Ian..and Othias. thats all anyone needs to know. They say it.......... it IS Nuff said

4:32 *_WAR WERE DECLARED!_*

Came over to check y'all out. I found out about your channel from an old Taofledermaus video. I know I'll love your channel, because... guns... need I say more?

I loaded about 17g from about 30+g...and at 200 yards I was getting about a 8 inch grouping. Loved it!!!!!

Oh goody another great video

Have you considered using Trailboss? Can have full case capacity and very low pressure and low velocity.

The day after this came out, I was at Cabela's, and this was sitting on the rack. I couldn't believe it! I said "Hey! I know what that is!" I handled it, and put it back. The next day, it was gone. Not feeling guilty on passing it up. Later though, I thought I heard a distant explosion. Lol.

I have one that I had since 1966 the barrel looks like new inside and the bluing is almost perfect the action is very sloppy (loose) the wood looks a little better than the one in the video I only shot it one time (4 or 5 rounds) back in the 60s. I have several clips of original ammo. I was never confident that it was safe so I just put it away. I Think that might of been a good decision.

I have a question: are those numbers for the 10.4 Vetterli accurate? I would have expected way less muzzle speed than 610m/s (I would have guessed 450 m/s or something in the vecinity)

Thanks for this video. Was looking at one of these. Now I think I'll move on to something safer.

I did occasionally entertain the idea of shooting mine but have decided to leave it hanging on the wall. glad none of you were hurt. It hangs opposing my Nepalese Gehendra. Another gun I will not shoot. They do look cool up there though. Thanks for another great video.

So the sleeveing of the barrel: I've read about and seen some videos on Chinese Bren guns sleeved with SKS barrels for 7.62x39, would they have used the same process?

I wonder how many of these rifles they broke when working out the conversion technique and then during the process of mass conversion?

This is such good info

*Sleep is for reasonable individuals*

When you put out that gun I was like: OMG they didn't really shoot it did they? I'm kinda happy non of you got seriously hurt by it. I still want to see many future episodes ^^'

I've also read that some saw use in the Spanish Civil War, although there is not much evidence to support this. The short bayonets are relatively common here though

I found this very helpful and interesting, I have just been gifted with my great grandfathers vetterli that I am still struggling to fully identify wich one it is..I have researched so hard and can not still pin point the exact model. I am hoping someone can help me pls..it is in tip top shape and completely original and fully working . It has the letters MW stamped above the serial number..and several other identifying marks on the stock as well..

just out of curiosity what powder did you use? I wonder if that possibly contributed to the failures of the rifle. Considering black powder rounds in weak actions like the Trapdoor Springfield can still be safely shot with smokeless.

thanks

I'm not a legit gun nut but I like this era of history and the aesthetic of bolt action rifles, so I mostly judge an old rifle on how much I like its, well, bolt. And this rifle has a very nice one, its really cool for some reason.

The look of flabbergasted disgust on Mae's face at the thought of a Vetterli 15 and Reichsrevolver is a wonder to behold.

Would you take one of these (a non exploding one) or a lebel into the great war???

Just a quick question. Do you plan to put out those info cards in a printed version? Or maybe like a deck of playing cards?

Can't wait for your finnish pronunciation. Keep up the good work folks!

Would a safe alternative be loading this 6.5 in black powder? I am re barreling one now and want to shoot it before I hang it on the wall.

I put 4 rounds through mine but stopped after I saw that the bolt was leaving a ring and dent around the primer. Still beautiful gun and worth it if cheap. Mine still has bluing on the barrel.

wow that's a lot of work

I have a query. If they had all those issues of the barrel liner and the logistics issues therein with the Vetterli Carcano, why didn't they just use Carcano Barrels from the factory? Not even making purpose built Vetterli barrels in 6.5, but doing what the French did with the Berthier and having them use Lebel barrels. I would think the reason would be that it would pull barrels that could be used for actual Carcanos for these more old fashioned rifles, but it is not as if they are adding Carcano magazines from the production lines, and the magazine is an integral part of the feed system of the Mannlicher style magazine. So if something was to know why they didn't just unscrew the old barrels and screw in a Carcano barrel, I would be happy to learn.

When you talk about 50% loads, is this from a load in a manual or are you downloading PPU ammo to 50%?

Mae sounded so happy to shoot this weapon

"Non sei un soldato italiano !" If you had done your research, you'd have known the safety of the Vetterli-Carcano was the inspiration for the Lawgiver's.

Why not use trailboss? Trail boss it the best for situations like these, full case fill, no chance for squibs and like 40% pressure, i feed my 88/05 a steady diet of that and its super fun and safe

What software do you guys use for your animations?

I want to get one of these, and load black powder 6.5 carcano. Did you guys chrono the loads? I'm curious how fast those 50% loads were going.