Honda Civic, misfire, stall, hard start, weak spark (bad igniter)

Рет қаралды 105,366

12 жыл бұрын

In the field, a weak spark condition usually results in ignition coil replacement. However, there’s also the chance of an igniter issue causing poor saturation and prematurely limiting current flow in the coil windings. Rare, but possible, and it’ll burn you if you’re not aware of it. This is where the low amp probe and a lab scope shines during diagnostics.
Engine Performance Diagnostics chapter 22 pages 10-25
Symptoms
- intermittent stall, hesitation, misfire
- intermittent hard start
Fix
- replace ignition coil igniter
Tests shown
- how to use an in-line spark tester to identify an ignition issue
- how to use a low amp probe to view a coil current waveform
- how to use a lab scope to view a coil primary voltage waveform
- analyzing a coil current waveform, identifying current limiting
- using lab scope triggers during testing
Tools used
- in-line spark tester
- Picoscope automotive 4 channel lab scope
- inductive low amp probe
Playlist
- (Chapter 22) No Spark Troubleshooting, Ignition Coil & Module Testing
• (Chapter 22) No Spark ...
Related videos
- How to test for a shorted ignition coil (Honda Distributor)
• How to test for a shor...
- Basic Ignition Description, Operation and Testing (any car)
• Basic Ignition Descrip...
- Ignition System Designs, Operation and Testing (an SD Premium video)
• Ignition System Design...
- Ford 5.4 shorted coil primary winding and bad computer driver
• Ford 5.4 shorted coil ...
- How to identify a shorted ignition coil (Honda C.O.P.)
• How to identify a shor...
For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
Want even more diagnostic training? Whether you are a DIY trying to fix your own car, someone looking to become an auto technician, or a current auto technician that wants to get more into diagnostics, subscribe to ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdanner.com/join-sc... There is a 14 day free trial.
On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC.

Пікірлер: 113

@jimkillen1065 5 жыл бұрын

Thanks Paul; I have one of those cars , work car and it has acted like that before . I had to replace the valve cover gasket to help but not cure the problem . I do appreciate the video . I had no idea the module would cause this

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

I understand how you feel. Keep watching my videos and asking questions is all you can do. I won't be able to answer all of them but I will help you when I can. Have a great evening.

@dalix1951 11 жыл бұрын

Paul, awesome video as always. Love those scope patterns clear and up to the point. As a follow up, I recommend to anyone out there who wants better understanding of system operations to get Paul's e-book, I did and didn't regret it.

@jeremyshanks6937 7 жыл бұрын

I thought it was a great video. Excellent description and explanation. thanks for adding the known good waveforms from the new igniter. I have been burnt by this issue before.

@ScannerDanner 7 жыл бұрын

Thanks Jeremy

@joaoarendartchuk1532 11 жыл бұрын

Paul you are a great TECH. I learn so much everyday when i watch your videos. Thank you very much!!!!!

@somerandomguy3868 7 жыл бұрын

excellent as always thanks for taking the time to show us

@blarson1 11 жыл бұрын

This is bar none best case study video on the internet!

@potardo9851 3 жыл бұрын

I could definitely hear the difference in how those ran before and after. Sounds just like my fiances civic pre install of the new one. Makes sense considering the coil tests good but i was suspecting the spark even though the rest is good. Igniter was questionable.

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

yes, after the spike in the primary, everything else you are looking at is from the secondary ckt. feeding back. so we know we can see no fuel misfires on the secondary and that means we should be able to see it on the primary. i'll have to try it

@ScannerDanner 11 жыл бұрын

thanks for the plug!

@xxrevansblackopsxx 12 жыл бұрын

hey paul thanks for all of these videos. i live in pittsburgh and i would love to go to rosedale for school

@victorlewis8970 5 жыл бұрын

Wow thanks to this video, thank you, thank you, thank you, yes thanks God, God bless you SD.

@pico3423 11 жыл бұрын

very good, i have to watch more of these and buy your ebook,

@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics 10 жыл бұрын

Hi Paul, a quick question on this case study: Considering the igniter and coil are inside the distributor, how are you measuring the coil negative control voltage? Is the blue wire (the rpm signal for the tach) actually true coil negative, even though it's a separate output pin on the igniter?

@ScannerDanner 10 жыл бұрын

I'm pretty sure it is true coil - voltage. It is a parallel branch off of the pin on the igniter that controls coil negative (used for the tach as you stated)

@Mark33090 12 жыл бұрын

My first car was a 1998 Acura Integra, a Honda of course. Car would have an intermittent stutter, but eventually died. Had it towed and they replaced the ignitor. So I fully agree with you LeakyDiaper (just read the name as I was typing it, nice).

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

All the time my friend.

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

no problem, thank you

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

it is as juergen said and I am measuring the collapse of the primary magnetic field with it.

@mckoylach1622 2 жыл бұрын

Great diagnostic procedures,Paul, although I have no knowledge of how to read or use the scope,thanks

@ScannerDanner 11 жыл бұрын

Thank you!!

@MrFishface5 6 жыл бұрын

So If I have a 6amp reading on the input wire while cranking that means the ignitor is good?

@ScannerDanner 11 жыл бұрын

thank you very much!

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

thank you

@JoelAutomotiveInaction 11 жыл бұрын

When you install inline spark tester normally on vehicles cranking but not starting how many kv are you specting to see as minimum ? Does it varies from waste spark and cop?? Minimum kv?? Thanks Paul

@fieroboom 3 жыл бұрын

Had a very similar issue with my '95 Integra. I put a new eBay ignitor in it just to see if it was worth the massive savings. It ran amazingly, but the ignitor & coil get EXTREMELY hot, especially here in Savannah summer, and the car just suddenly dies out of nowhere. Once cooled, it will restart & continue until it overheats again... I suspect the new ignitor's internal ground or coil current limiter circuit is insufficient, & I REALLY wanna know exactly what it's doing to understand it better, but I don't have a working scope at the moment. 😢

@allanblazek6214 2 жыл бұрын

Replace whole distributor great video thanks

@ronaldwatkins6079 5 жыл бұрын

How do you used test light on 2000 ford expeditions

@robertlesaca3964 5 жыл бұрын

Hi Paul...Im working on a 2007 GMC express Savana 4.3L. Its a no start, good fuel pressure but a weak spark. Im suspecting an ignition module/ignitor problem. I have not done a scope yet - its a pain in the butt taking out the engine cover - and pin probed 3-wire CKP (bottom of engine close to crank pulley) sensor, which is terribly soaked with oil, and got a reading of 11.53V in one wire and almost identical 8.53 V on the two remaining wires. Am I right in suspecting an ignition module problem? Thank you

@mckoylach1622 6 жыл бұрын

Great video

@ELITEDIAGNOSTICS 12 жыл бұрын

Malisa696 hope Paul doesn't mind me answering your question, the answer is yes do some r&d with a good car adding propane disconnecting injector etc do a WOT test and look at your KV line and the slope of the burn line and you should have the answers you require. Paul inside video again keep em coming pal :)

@mysterync 11 жыл бұрын

Id like your input on watching primary vs secondary, amperage vs voltage. Ive got attenuated leads to view primary/injection circuits and ive considered attachments for secondary, is it worth it?

@omarG19100 12 жыл бұрын

@ScnnerDanner like sometimes when im sittin in traffic the car will be run smooth, then i feel the car shake a lil bit as if it was chillylol. while this is happening the idle which is 800 will drop to like 750-700 then pick back up.

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

thanks man

@ScannerDanner 11 жыл бұрын

thank you and if you do i promise you will not be disappointed

@captainknuckles6421 6 жыл бұрын

ScannerDanner I have a 93 Civic dx and it has a little hard time to start . At first I thought it would be the main relay then I checked the ignition switch and it was fine to so my last three things I had in mind was the ECU and the fuel pump and the coil . It gets good voltage as well at the end I ended up replaceing everything and it still has a hard time turning on . Please help and thank you

@LeakyDiaper 12 жыл бұрын

Any old school Honda owner will tell ya, if it has a distributor, just buy an igniter and have it handy. Your gonna need it at some point. Just a Honda thang. :)

@luciferjr4204 4 жыл бұрын

I have a civic 91 at the 12:22 my car doez the same thing when it gets hot it starts to shake & i have a code 4

@mrbriceno3949 5 жыл бұрын

Thank you for making this video. It is incredibly deataiIed. I wish i saw it a month ago!!! I recently changed the fan switch thermo switch radiator cap distributor cap rotor Ignition wire spark plugs the EGR valve and now Im going to change the icm or igniter.. This was the worse car problem ive ever expirienced. I would have never found out if it werent for you. Wish me luck

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

depends on the model, is it a honda van?

@oggonzalez9291 8 жыл бұрын

Can one weak spark in a coil pack cause idle surge?

@sleepwalker29 4 жыл бұрын

My 2.3L Honda starts but takes 30 seconds to a minute to crank. I thought it was my methanol. Cars been sitting. But when it cranks it runs. Think my coil is shorted.

@powerofknowledge7771 3 жыл бұрын

Wish you could have shown us an example of the rough start. Would have loved to know what that sounded like.

@heartbreakkash9579 6 ай бұрын

Like a go cart

@-BEASTOR- 12 жыл бұрын

So much work for such a little problem,. I still dont understand how it can happen,. mayby it whas bad when they where connected right and on the process switched? that would really hurt for the owner. If you dont have those tools you really got a problem and the car would go to a scrapyard. Great video btw!

@omarG19100 12 жыл бұрын

@ScannerDanner yeah im bout to ry that. Thanks alot bro =D.

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

it could be a lot of things my friend. start with a coil output test and see how far the spark jumps to a test light on each tower...be careful

@dblr616 11 жыл бұрын

Hey paul im wondering if u can check out this video i just posted got a question for u. The car has a hesitation @ cruise speeds my first thought was plug wires i tried a set of used ones which were all within spec when i ohmed them out same pattern on the scope with both sets

@malisa696 12 жыл бұрын

I have a question but it is not related to this video. Can I use ignition coil primary voltage waveform to determine a no fuel misfire or to determine lean or rich condition? Thank you.

@omarG19100 12 жыл бұрын

@scannerDanner Hey man. Do you think my hestitation whole tryna to re accelarate from a stop has somethig to do with the coils or module? i checked for Vac leaks and learning th 98 saturn sl1 model is famous for intake manifold leaks, However i found none. New NGK plugs, wires, and cleaned throttle/iac. thingt dont do it all the time so ts hard to gure =(

@MrJgonzalez2 12 жыл бұрын

Paul, how true is it that scan tools misidentify cylinder misfires?

@Dante40222 3 жыл бұрын

What would cause the ignitor to go bad?

@codyatkinson4832 4 жыл бұрын

Now you got me wondering if my random p1399 code is due to a bad igniter or icm. 🧐, great video

@ScannerDanner 4 жыл бұрын

the igniter is the icm (ignition control module) or did you mean ECM (engine control module)

@codyatkinson4832 4 жыл бұрын

I meant the coil itself.

@mikeybigfoot1354 Жыл бұрын

I have an 07 Civic 1.8L lost power on 95 and limped it home thinking I blew my engine... Turns out it's was #4 cylinder coil pack failed two days prior installed new NGK PLUGS THINKING THAT DID IT. WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK. KEEP IN MIND THAT CYLINDER IS GETTING A BIT OF OIL IN IT FROM A BAD VALVE COVER GASKET

@leoarai5277 4 жыл бұрын

I recently bought a 89 Civic with the 1.5 dual point injection. After car warms up it wil stall. And then when i start it up again vehicle will lose power and sputter.(rpms can barely reach 2000rpm) Iv been told ots the iacv but have not replace it yet. Could this be a igniter issue

@ScannerDanner 4 жыл бұрын

those were the exact symptoms this one had And the IAC valve is absolutely NOT your problem with those symptoms

@addictionandrecoverytalk 4 жыл бұрын

I have a 2000 Honda Civic dx just put the motor and it was running fine now it’s giving me problems sometimes it starts right up runs fine turn it off let it sit for a little and it cranks but won’t start and when it does start it got a nasty mis fire what can be the problem

@ScannerDanner 4 жыл бұрын

Find out what you are missing when it is not starting. Spark or injector pulse, then we go from there

@codywichman213 8 жыл бұрын

I would have like to seen the new igniters ground voltage compared to the old one. based on current it would have to be closer to ground on the new one to increase current flow.

@ScannerDanner 8 жыл бұрын

+Cody Wichman I have a picture of that in my book. Section 22 page 20 (if you have my book) Sorry I didn't show that in this video

@codywichman213 8 жыл бұрын

Thanks. The book shows what I was looking for.

@1mouse3 8 жыл бұрын

nice ground lead

@mrbriceno3949 5 жыл бұрын

True

@heartbreakkash9579 6 ай бұрын

Yeah im here 2024 to tell you that I was the guy to change the coil and now im Headed to the icm

@MHJDenmark 12 жыл бұрын

So why was the igniter limiting the coil so low?

@garlicbreadjenkins5780 4 жыл бұрын

2004 es, slow start, stalls at stop only with ac. New sparkplugs, sparkplug tube seals leak on all 4 tubes

@ScannerDanner 4 жыл бұрын

slow start, meaning it cranks over slowly (weak battery etc) or it takes a long time to start (extended crank time). Any engine that stalls at stops, the first thing that needs to be looked at is the throttle body. Is it dirty? I have videos on this

@fermate1991 6 жыл бұрын

Good.

@kareem2027 4 жыл бұрын

I have an 01Civic that does something like the car in the video. It starts hard and will run for 20-25 minutes but then will stall. But if I wait a bit it will start up again for another period of time and repeat the process. The thing is my car is a standard (1.7L) and I'm not aware of any igniter on it. Any idea where to look to correct the problem?

@ScannerDanner 4 жыл бұрын

Starts hard? You mean cranks for a long time? Check fuel psi first

@leslietheunissen7847 3 жыл бұрын

My car does the same but starts immediately

@leslietheunissen7847 3 жыл бұрын

So could it be my module? I already replaced my coil about a month ago.. Car drives for like 2 minutes then dies out, it will eventually start again after 5 minutes but will repeat the process.. I've already checked fuel pressure its good

@leslietheunissen7847 3 жыл бұрын

It's a eg d15b3 carb

@sailorbob74133 6 жыл бұрын

Can you weigh in on the issue of visual appearance of the spark? I've read various opinions about thin orange / yellow spark vs. thick blue spark and what their significance is. Also, can weak spark ( without misfire ) result in a lean signal at idle on the O2?

@ScannerDanner 6 жыл бұрын

Sure. An orange colored spark is typically thought of as being weak, while this can be the case, there are other causes. For example, when testing for spark with a variable gap tester, if you close the air gap, the spark will be more orange, if you open the air gap the spark will be blue. This is due to current flow differences. When the gap is narrow the spark travels across the electrode for a longer period of time. (burn time) and makes the spark look orange. When the gap is increased, the coil has to build more energy (voltage) before it can overcome the gap and when it finally does, it is in the form of a higher voltage spark. This results in less burn time as well. Remember a coil will produce the same energy each time it fires and will be "used up" in the from of voltage and current combined. And they will always be opposite each other. As for your O2 question, a lean condition does require more energy because fuel acts as a conductor, however these are tough to pick out in a secondary pattern unless the injector is not firing at all, then it is easy to see.

@sailorbob74133 6 жыл бұрын

Wow, that's exactly opposite of what I was expecting. I assumed that as blue light is higher energy, that would correlate to the lower voltage higher amperage / current flow at a smaller gap and the lower energy yellow / orange light would correlate to higher voltage lower current flow at the larger gap. But you're saying the color of the spark is correlated to the voltage, not the current. I've gotta go out and test that. Regarding the O2 question, couldn't a weak spark show as a short burn line ( less than 1ms ), with little or no oscillations at it's end, resulting in an incomplete burn and a false lean condition?

@ScannerDanner 6 жыл бұрын

The blue light is higher voltage but less burn time. The orange light is lower voltage but longer burn time. The energy is the same on each event A lean misfire, the energy needed to maintain the burn cannot be supported, so yes a short burn time with a vary large coil oscillation at the end of it due to a lot of left over energy inside of the coil. A weak spark is a different topic altogether. A weak spark from a failing coil would have a difficult time jumping any air gap at all (depending on how weak the coil is), the spark may actually still be blue (very thin but still blue) and not jump past a 1/4 inch gap. And yes, when viewed on a waveform, you would have a very short burn time and possibly no reserve coil oscillation. So do you see how misleading it is to say an orange spark is a weak spark and a blue spark is good?

@ScannerDanner 6 жыл бұрын

As an experiment, my students and I do this all the time with a waste spark coil set up in the classroom. We can catch paper on fire with a narrow air gap and only punch holes through the paper with a large air gap.

@sailorbob74133 6 жыл бұрын

ScannerDanner so can you really imply anything at all from spark color when using a variable gap spark tester? a really cool experiment would be to vary the saturation of the coil while maintaining a constant Gap so that only the current and time change but not the voltage and see how that affects the spark color.

@juergenscholl2843 12 жыл бұрын

DC voltage of coil primariy circuit

@sheeptoshepherd4624 Жыл бұрын

Hey, I have a 91 civic SI It won’t start and backfires out of the intake. Timing is good. Has fuel and spark where to go to next? Thanks so much

@ScannerDanner Жыл бұрын

Backfiring out of the intake during cranking is suggesting a timing issue. Or maybe you put the plug wires on wrong? When did the problem start?

@sheeptoshepherd4624 Жыл бұрын

@@ScannerDanner I just bought the car for cheap to learn on to be honest. Guy said it sit for a year

@sheeptoshepherd4624 Жыл бұрын

@@ScannerDanner also I check the plug wires and they were put on correctly

@serchmarc 11 жыл бұрын

DONE

@jdean399 10 жыл бұрын

Hi Paul, could you explain to me how you knew it was the ignitor and not a bad coil? Thanks,great videos,Iam really enjoying them,you have inspired me to learn,just got a Modis and Iam loving it!

@ScannerDanner 10 жыл бұрын

Watch this video lecture Section 22 No Start, No Spark Diagnosis (Part 3) Start at the 47:36 minute mark. If you are not a subscriber yet, it is free for 14 days. It is too complicated to put into text here to answer your question.

@serchmarc 11 жыл бұрын

can you send me a private message with the info about the ebook? how to buy it from another country (latin america) and the price ,can you reply?

@adrianherrera543 4 жыл бұрын

I don't know if I missed it but how did he solve the problem?

@ScannerDanner 4 жыл бұрын

it is in the title (bad igniter)

@adrianherrera543 4 жыл бұрын

@@ScannerDanner sorry I missed that. Question I've changed this part on mine and still no spark here and there it comes and goes I'm completely confused.

@ScannerDanner 4 жыл бұрын

@@adrianherrera543 this video may help you kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Y8B3f9KEuNXbiY0.html

@angelo80409 3 жыл бұрын

Would a check engine light pop up?

@ScannerDanner 3 жыл бұрын

Not on this year, maybe a lean code, possibly

@angelo80409 3 жыл бұрын

@@ScannerDanner oh okay, I'm guessing in my lexus 94 sc400 it wouldn't throw up any codes. I appreciate it,I'm trying to figure out why my car has been having issues for 8 months.

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

:-) pico rules

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

I can't answer that. I wish I could....because its bad :-)

@ericmerrifield6274 4 жыл бұрын

Hey i have a hondah 96 prelude and it dies when im sittin and take alot to get it goin ita 5 speed and like to die when i take off and i haveto floor it get the rpms up n slowly let the clutch out and it bogs itself out and then cathces

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

:-) now you know how they fail

@ScannerDanner 12 жыл бұрын

that's awesome. if you fill out your name and email on my webpage, I can make sure that one of our admissions reps. contact you if you like.