Jigglypuff, Ganondorf and Zelda all being bottom 3 for 2 consecutive games (Brawl and Smash 4) will forever be the funniest and saddest thing to ever happen in competitive Smash

6:20 Something to specify about Jr. is that if the game registers that you hit both the koopa and the cart, Smash 4 treats it as a koopa hit, so he takes more damage. In Smash Ultimate, this priority was reversed.

Jigglypuff was intentionally made bad in Smash 4. Nerfing an already bad character in Brawl, giving it the worst custom moves in the game, and refusing to give Puff any buffs in the numerous updates despite being unanimously considered the worst character in the game.

One thing I liked about Smash 4 Ganondorf is that his up smash's endlag is done before the attack animation finishes. I remember catching people off guard with a forward tilt after up smashing back in the For Glory days.

DDD is so absurd to me. You see the giant hammer and must think "that has to hit like a truck" but it often feels like you just hit someone with a weighted sandbag. A lot of his hammer moves don't KO

When i was playing in a smash 4 group at my university, i was once complemented as "the best zelda player they had ever played against". It seems like a big complement till you realize, i was the only zelda player they had played against.

as someone who mains falco in every game he’s in, smash 4 was a necessary punishment for 6 years of chain grabs but we been so back since ultimate came out

I think the biggest problem with Doctor Mario is that people try to play him as Mario... When he's _not._ His combos and recovery are completely different.

Fun fact about Kirby in Smash 4, his exhale is BUSTED. If your opponent is at a high % and you exhale them they can be shot really far away. Give it a try on Temple, pop the CPU to 999%, and exhale from the left platform.

As a day 1 3ds Pac-Main, I never dropped the character. I remember playing late nights in for glory against japanese players, and somehow winning. Sometimes by clutch. When cloud and bayo dropped, I had mewtwo as my second main. Difficult times indeed. Now on Ultimate, Pac-Man is hella good and fun. Only thing I miss is his up tilt and down throw to dash combo

You didn't really mention the most important nerf to falco, the fact that his laser doesn't autocancel anymore. This autocancel is what made it so good in melee and brawl, and taking that away is the single biggest nerf to him in this game, but you didn't even mention it. Also his fair was changed in brawl, not smash 4

I forgot how ass Falco was 💀 Also Kirby did pretty well vs Fox and Sheik imo. You just had to know how to get in there and box with them. Fun times.

As a lifelong Bowser and Ganondorf main, I feel that the devs looked at Brawl, said, "We kinda screwed both of them," decided to fix one, and turned Bowser into Melee Ganondorf from then on and left Ganondorf as Melee Bowser.

i Just hate how Ganondorf always has to be bad because Sakurai can't be given enough time to make an actual moveset for him

15:23 to make matters worse, in one patch they nerfed his air speed wich made him Slower in the air than in Brawl.

I honestly think Smash 4's low tiers are very underrated and a whole lot of them feel better to play than Brawl's low tiers. Can't say the same for King Dedede unfortunately, he's downright abysmal.

It's crazy how even when Ganon got giga buffed in Ultimate, he's still the worst character. But Ultimates low tiers are actually viable unlike other games in the series. Why is the game with the most characters the most balanced?

The highest placement in Smash Zelda ever had was D tier lol

Smash 4 never gets credit for having the most unpredictable and unique newcomers. Rosalina? Villager? Little Mac? WII FIT?BAYO? C’mon yo

My main is kinda falco and it hurts that he was low tier

As someone who mains Falco in Smash 4, there's a few things that weren't mentioned that also contribute to him being awful. His jab is incredibly easy to SDI out of and avoid the finisher. Some characters like Peach could even directly punish him for landing the jab so it was often not even a button worth going for. Phantasm flat out just doesn't have a hitbox on like the last entire half of the move. You're not gonna pull any sort of Ult-esque Phantasm into aerial type stuff. Usmash was changed from Brawl to 4 from a single hit ala Fox to a multihit and it had issues connecting a lot of the time. The 2nd hit was the one with all the launching power and opponents could just...fall out from the first hit. Usmash got buffed 3 separate times in the game. Blaster was mentioned but man was it complete crap. Against some characters like Sonic, you could only afford to even land the move at max range. Any closer and even after the hit, they had enough time to run up and punish you because there was so much endlag. At the end of the day, I still mained Falco because my Brawl main wasn't in the game (Wolf) and he felt like one of the absolute few characters in Smash 4 who could attempt edgeguarding and have it actually be worth it. Granted, part of that is because Falco was so bad that he kinda had to go offstage to get kills but I really wasn't a fan of how insanely easy recovering in Smash 4 was. Ledgeguarding (not edgeguarding) is just such a boring way to play the game. I did like how Blaster at least forced some characters like Samus to play more mindfully since they couldn't charge moves for free and dtilt has a nice disjoint on it and even Reflector was an okay, long ranged poke. I'm not even a fan of Ult Falco since there's a lot of stuff from 4 and Melee Falco that I miss. Reflector is mostly only good now for reflecting, fsmash lost some range since he doesn't lunge forward as much, I think dtilt lost some range too. There's also just more options for characters who can edgeguard in Ult.

I got into the tourney scene with Smash 4 Jigglypuff I didn't do so well, but hey I got used to the tourney scene

talking about how bad pacman is in smash 4 really puts in perspective just how huge his changes in ultimate were

I really like Smash 4 puff, but the Cloud matchup is downright ungrateful

"Pac-Man has the worst grab in the game." Meanwhile there's Villager with the frame 15 grab.

who in the world would put PAC in smash 4 anywhere that wasnt mid tier?

Funny how Falco is mid in air, and he’s literally a BIRD

Future Smash games, plural. You keep saying that, are you referring to the beta for the new game Smash Receptacle, or just mods?

1:06 Literally Ultimate Lucas lol

This mfs handmovements be getting me angry 😭

I absolutely love this channel and getting to know some of the lesser talked about aspects in smash

Remember when Bowser Jr was leaked and people were saying he is a clone of Diddy Kong? 😂

Kirby can beat a high tier hell I remember a Kirby beating Mario late in Smash 4.

Oh wow, I bet you weren't expecting this one..... 15:36 Ganondorf had some potential except for the fact that he's the slowest character in the game and the worst recovery. Players did see really minor success with him but nothing to write home about.

I love how Little Mac is just... out.

SSB4 low/bottom tiers is a definite step-up over the previous game's low/bottom tiers, through the combination of them having more tools and the top tiers not quite being as polarizing as previous games. However, if you are talking about vanilla SSB4, back when the game first came out, then that is absolutely not the case. The low/bottom tiers of vanilla SSB4 were absolute struggle characters, and vanilla SSB4 Zelda, Charizard, and Mii Swordfighter were 3 of the worst characters to ever exist in Smash. Vanilla SSB4 Zelda was likely the worst version of the character in the series, as she was essentially a toned down Brawl Zelda with very little of the combo game she would have in the final version. Similarly, vanilla SSB4 Shulk was one of the most hilariously dysfunctional characters to ever exist in Smash. Vanilla SSB4 was a very cursed time that not many people today remember about.

Here’s an interesting query: How would the low tiers have been if they had their custom moves? Would they have risen out of the bottom or would they have stayed where they are?

awesome vid :)) i always love remembering the older smash games also totally unrelated but I’ve been looking for the name of the song that plays during the bowser jr section pleeeease tell me the name of the song 😭😭 (5:10 ish)

this was a good video, i think the music choice is a bit weird and offputting, and the pace of interesting visual content could be improved, but the script was very informative and well paced. great work sir i enjoyed

this game looks a lot more polished than i remember

This was not a good time for many of us, huh?

the phrase “low tier alumni” SENT me bro 💀

I will say, Puff did have SOME potential in smash 4 with stuff like Sing Cancel and her timeout ability.

Honest content production values have increased I see

I just looked at my calendar like that Harvey Birdman scene

It's honestly laughable that they didn't give any small buffs for Dedede and Puff, yet other low tiers such as Ganon or Falco received some buffs. It's as if even the developers themselves hated Dedede and Puff in Smash 4. Also, a fun fact: in the first tier list for Smash 4, Puff did not take the last place. Zelda landed on the last place instead, but in the second tier list, she did rise slightly, causing Puff to be stuck in the last place following Zelda's slight rise.

Oh hell yeah, OutRun 2 music. I honestly forgot how awful Smash 4 Pac-Man's grab was, wow.

How did triforce tier happen twice lol

How did Jigglypuff, Zelda, and Ganondorf remain bottom 3 for two games?

When Honest post it just makes everyone day better!

Yo. I heard advance wars music in Dr. Mario’s section

Ult's competitive scene would lasted a lot longer if they kept doing balance patches

Got to hand to Ultimate for fixing some of these characters. They just didn’t work in 4. I enjoy playing Bowser Jr in Ultimate.

I always enjoyed playing Dr Mario and Jigglypuff in smash 4, thank god me and my friends never bought the dlc, that wouldn’t have been fun

I want one smash game (that isn't 64) where Kirby is a high tier character I deserve it

I think something in Kirby's favor in this game specifically was the fact that his down b can destroy shields since it hits the shield twice, the air hitbox and the landing one. And having your shield broken against Kirby is pretty much a death sentence because hammer flip is so obscenely strong I do wish they kept that feature in for Ultimate, would actually give stone more of a threat value, but at the very least it's significantly stronger in ultimate than it is in any other smash game.

Correct me if Im wrong, but I heard Jigglypuff was never changed during any balance patch in Smash 4. That could also be another reason she's the worst character

They can't catch a break.

I've been a smash 4 puff main for years and she isn't as bad as people say imo. Simply don't face bayo and she can function.

13:23 what happened to Male Wii Fits thing above his head?

God man, looking back, Smash 4 is slow as hell compared to Ultimate

1:02 useless tractor beams hehe I remember how bad this was. Glad Pac got buffed

I miss brawl dedede

Surprised ya didn't mention the massive landing lag increase B-Air got on Kirby. That in combination with the huge hitbox reduction is what basically decimated Kirby's neutral game from Brawl. Kirby could no longer really play an air game and now had to mostly stay grounded but this was before Ultimate allowed you to cancel your dash with all your actions and was before F-Tilt got a major knockback and endlag buff and Dash Attack...actually became useable. So Kirby found himself just having to waddle around a lot. He could finesse certain fast fallers like Sheik, Captain Falcon, and Fox but outside of matchups like that his combos were surprisingly subpar. I honestly to this day feel launch Ultimate Kirby was better than final SSB4 Kirby just because the mechanical changes and some direct changes finally gave Kirby a semblance of a neutral game. Being forced to just walk up and power shield with Kirby when his range already got nerfed was just pain.

I was a brawl falco player and when i saw the nerfs falco got in this game, i was devistated

As one of the 12 Dedede fanatics in Smash 4, I honestly think he was underrated in the meta. Not a good character, but better than bottom tier status. Changing Waddle Dees to Gordos was definitely a buff and made him one of the best ledgetrap characters in the game. Most of KOs would come from stuff like ledge gordo with down smash or from soft neutral air to up air being a 50/50. He had the fastest fall speed in the game, which combined with multiple jumps made floating and landing in neutral extremely important to his gameplay. His downfall had little to do with Gordo being reflectable because you shouldn't throw that in neutral in the first place. It was the horrendous horizontal aerial speed that made approaching zoners a chore.

zelda's phantom does have one advantage over ultimate it was a way better defensive tool since the armor could block attacks it worked more as a terrible get off me or even anti projectile vs ultimate making it a top 10 baiting tool

Ultimate was my first ever smash game so i really appreciate these kinda of videos

They buffed Ganon a lot in updates what go look at his patch notes and come back they changed and fixed so much the thing with S4 patches is they actually made SUBSTANTIAL changes to characters when buffing/nerfing them, not like Ult where you'll see DK's ftilt do more knockback and they think that will fix his issues. Ganon got a makeover compared to how he was on release and it kinda irks me when people talk about S4 when they don't know S4 history because there's so many things that just get overlooked.

why is this persons content so honest like he never says anything not honest

Wait, isn't Little Mac bottom tier?

this is a great and very informative video, but you might want to try a little harder with your in game footage. Most of the character traits you tried to show either very clearly didn’t combo or kill, and inbetween those moments you would just sparsely hit the cpu. Showing tournament footage inbetween moments where you’re personally demonstrating characters capabilities would be nice, as well as actually comboing when you’re talking about character combos.

Never understand why they nerfed kirby he wasnt even a top tier in brawl why the hell nerf him????

Pac-Man did have sort of a late-meta renaissance, thanks to a player named Tea.

two of my most played characters in smash 4 were Falco (Falco was my go-to) and Puff, good times lol

I was just watching a Smash video, yeah the Smash 4 low tiers are better then Brawl's, but worse then 64's and Ultimate's. Great video

I know she was terrible, but Smash 4 was where I got interested in playing Zelda.

Im a Doc main 😂 been playing him since Melee. Over the years, I find myself saying, "Why don't I just play Mario".....turns out my Mario is cheeks 😂 the combos are not too different, but I'm so used to Doc combos it makes my Mario suffer 😂

0:04 pre patch bayo up smash lol - I killed bowser at 54 with it too.

I'll never get 9ver how Tea somehow managed to beat multiple top Rosas in Smash 4 with PacMan

It’s sad cuz I was a JR main in smash 4. And I loved playing as him.

Foward air being nerfed in kill power was sorta bot really a buff because weak fair was one of her only combo tools into rest.

jigglypuff also had some terrible combo potential, she is really good in ult now at least, she has so many tools and amazing movement and a AMAZING combo game. she is only mid tier but mid is good in ultimate because the game is well balanced, she has a lot of good wininng matchups like minmin and fox and kazuya and corrin. etc. love puff in ult.

I remember Pac Man was complete trash, his grab was horrible, his down air never connected and his other aerials weak as hell

I did in fact main jr and puff in sm4sh and I actually did a pretty good job holding my own

So is Kirbs 2nd smash low tier again. Maybe ultimate can solve him something, right? *Right?...*

lol i won the only tournament i played in using bowser jr but it was a school one so like obvs none of us are super good players but i felt good doing it 😂

Random Sensei theme ha ha

Does anyone think Nintendo made characters unviable on purpose? If that’s the case, why even bother having the character?

I look forward to Sm4sh's top tiers!

Bazinga

Tr4sh 4, great times (not)

Yeah. Wii Fit Trainer should've never happened.

As a low tier connoseur this makes me really appreciate ultimates balance

I must have something severely wrong with me to have mained Ganondorf throughout all of this

smash 4 is so weird to me tf you mean FALCO is low tier?

I love Smash 4 Falco 💙

Fun fact, Zelda has been a low tier in all of her appearances in smash Bros

Honestly I remember the days little mac was an F tier then people realized how absolutely busted he is lol. He had a mechanic so busted they had to make an ultimate dlc character have it too

Imagine nerfing a low tier.