Whenever I hear that bass line, I know I'm in store to learn a thing or two about a thing or two.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
in this case a thing or 3
@krazykraka7772 жыл бұрын
Richard knows a thing or two because he's seen a thing or two.
@DaneSaysStuff2 жыл бұрын
@@krazykraka777 Westech Performance, bum ba bum bum bum ba bum
@Austin-qq7kt2 жыл бұрын
😂
@codycooper39808 ай бұрын
A thing or two a day keeps a thing or two at bay
@NGG19832 жыл бұрын
those LS factory manifolds actually look like really nice quality castings. Sure makes the old kinked and ugly factory manifolds of the past look bad.
@altruismfirst64892 жыл бұрын
Would love to see heat proof coating on stock manifold or wrapped headers with heat proof coated combustion chambers could do for efficiency.
@JC-gw3yo2 жыл бұрын
I saw a test on Nick's Garage with a bone stock 2 four barrel 1970 426 Hemi. The factory rated this engine at 425 Horsepower. On the dyno with factory exhaust manifolds, the 1970 426 Hemi made 500 HP.. By adding only headers, the 426 Hemi made 550 Horsepower.
@g2skinny2 жыл бұрын
That’s 50 hp dude if you want to be totally stock appearing the 50 hp loss from the stock cast manifolds vs the headers is not bad at all
@Dr_Xyzt2 жыл бұрын
The lower RPM seems to gain more with headers when you have a cam. I've noticed that a lot of engines run cooler when they go to longtubes.
@MillerGarage2692 жыл бұрын
Good to know. Makes it worth it. I have a LQ4 block, with a cam. Doing speed engineering long tubes.
@sam_i_am64102 жыл бұрын
My work delivery truck is an Isuzu NPR-HD with a well-maintained beast of an LY6. Whether it's 1 stop or 10... all deliveries get done before 2 every day :)
@kennethpowers89952 жыл бұрын
I can answer this question before I even watch your dyno results; the answer is it depends. There are literally some engines that don’t pickup any power at all from aftermarket headers. This being the result of an engine that A) isn’t flow restricted on the exhaust side of things and/or B) has a decent factory setup that promotes scavenging. As far as boosted applications from what I’ve seen over the years it matters far more what is in front of the compressor wheel than what feeds the turbine wheel. More often than not I’ve changed boost pressure more with inlet piping than the exhaust setup, and typically see changes in spool rate with exhaust modifications rather than changes in overall total boost pressure. When I have seen gains on built NA engines from header changes, it’s not usually from flow it’s from the effects of scavenging. I know this because I rarely see a power difference from a change in primary diameter, and I have literally bashed and bent/Pryed on headers to make them fit off the wall swap applications to the point where I 100% know I diminished the inner diameter of the tube somewhat, and power did not change.
@joshrichards5282 жыл бұрын
I love how smooth ls charts are I test 350 crate motors for a living and they don’t come anywhere near that smooth no matter the combination
@gothicpagan.6662 жыл бұрын
100% spot on, the longer the cam duration the bigger the potential gains from the header. Especially noticeable on a street driven motor at low RPM, with the Wrong cam 😆
@1967davethewave2 жыл бұрын
Guys who love classic exhaust manifolds like Pontiac Ram Air, 426 Hemi or LS6 Chevy will argue endlessly that the manifolds are superior to long tube headers and that headers are only for high rpms. I learned a long time ago about the benefits of long tube headers at almost every rpm range but especially low and midrange due to the increased scavaging effect. Guys like Richard who have tested every possible combination and their only goal is what makes the best power, not what pulls at our heart strings, show every time that nothing beats a long tube header for making power. If you want trouble free operation, long life and easy fit then cast iron manifolds might be the way to go, but if you want to squeeze every bit of horsepower out of the engine then nothing can replace the long tubes!
@177SCmaro2 жыл бұрын
Long tube headers also sound awesome.
@P71ScrewHead2 жыл бұрын
i agree, never will i prefer stock over longtubes, never..
@bcbloc022 жыл бұрын
The Chrysler max wedge exhaust manifolds are really close to a header. Nicks Garage did a dyno test with them versus regular manifolds and I think they were 30hp better and less than 10hp off the long tube headers.
@1967davethewave2 жыл бұрын
@@bcbloc02 I saw that test too. And you can tell by looking at them they are good units. Pontiac had some Super Duty manifolds in the early 1960's that looked like cast long tube headers and they were made from aluminum to boot. I bet they were pretty good too but I've never seen a test on them.
@HGHG-sd4ht2 жыл бұрын
Another very nice test Richard, I was looking for such a test for sometime already 🙂 it really helps people to make a smart investment when upgrading their Engines and also helps to understand how to maximize the advantage of Long Tube Headers even further. Great test. Thanks again Richard.
@lazyhoundracing96212 жыл бұрын
I'm one of the other guys but you can't deny the beauty of the LS.
@jasoncunningham6714 Жыл бұрын
Ok guys what did we learn from this little adventure?... Doing this trumps all uncoolness into supreme coolness! Love it! Peace..
@toomanyhobbies20112 жыл бұрын
In the 70s, one of the best ways to get power was headers and free-flowing exhaust. Since the 2000s engines have improved so much that there just isn't much difference. Your results are about what I'd expect. For example: my 2003 GMC LQ4 has cast manifolds that are essentially short tube headers that feed into a 4" exhaust system.
@Anarchy-Is-Liberty2 жыл бұрын
I agree!! It's not worth the wasted money, time and headaches buying/using fancy headers to gain a couple of horsepower!!
@onemoremisfit2 жыл бұрын
I have a 2002 Avalanche, stock 5.3, and I added a Whipple SC that makes 6 psi boost. I put long tube headers on it and they were nothing but trouble. First, the headers for the truck do not have tubes that lay neat and tidy like his dyno headers. They have tubes that loop upward and make contact with the LS ign wires, forcing you to solve that problem. Then they make access the spark plugs more difficult. And they have a clearance issue with the 4x4 front pinion. And they crowd the starter, making it more prone to heat failure and more difficult to change out when it fails. They were not worth it. I now have a little more cam in it, very mild, stock idle with .050" more lift than stock. The 706 heads have been CNC ported and the chambers polished & cc'd, still the same Whipple SC. I now have the stock exhaust manifolds back on and I will install a good performance exhaust system behind the stock manifolds. I am looking forward to fewer under-hood problems and I don't mind if there is a small HP penalty. The engine runs well, BUT unfortunately I can't drive it right now because the engine has to come back apart ... apparently Comp Cams has sold me a bad set of lifters and they clack like mad after the engine warms up. Quiet on cold start but excessive lash noise gradually comes in as it warms past 180 degrees.
@johnsheetz6639 Жыл бұрын
Very true! malaise era cars had the worst exhaust systems ever just a plain dual exhaust system begins at 20 or more even a better air filter would add a few hopefully you would be lucky enough to have a four barrel.
@onemoremisfit Жыл бұрын
@@bigboreracing356 I'm 63, retired, and I put ~ $30K into a frame-off restoration on the truck since 3 years ago. No regrets, it's been fun but the next time the engine comes apart it's getting stock GM lifters instead of Comp Cams. When you grow up you might rethink stamping emojis all over what you write.
@onemoremisfit Жыл бұрын
@@bigboreracing356 I never would have guessed.
@J0eBl0e2 жыл бұрын
Got your clips out of order there, you put the supercharged comparison before the cammed comparison, but the narration was opposite. Not a big deal, still a great video.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
My bad
@Low7602 жыл бұрын
I just got a Holden VF v8 (Chevy SS) with an l77. This is relevant to me. Excellent
@sombra61532 жыл бұрын
I once had a 92 Mustang LX with JBA 1 1/2 inch shorties, K&N filter and silencer removed, Flowmasters, and bumped up timing. It ran decent while still pretty stock and reliable. Then I drove an 88-89 convertible with long tubes and possibly a larger throttle body. I think the cats were also missing. That car ran really strong. I didn’t see much else over stock. Led me to believe the long tubes worked better than the shorties.
@dennisrobinson8008 Жыл бұрын
On the 5.0 mustang the long tube would help alot. The intake ports were poor and the scavenging would help fill the cylinder on the overlap.
@mikelawler22782 жыл бұрын
I love that you show the dyno results in the graph and not just top numbers. I'm really curious how short, medium, and long tube headers compare throughout the rpm range since everyone else only shows numbers and I prefer the low to mid rpm range for 2 builds I have going. A Jeep YJ and a daily driver 56 Bel Air, both getting 5.3 LS swaps.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
LONG TUBES ARE BETTER EVERYWHERE
@mikelawler22782 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 They'll definitely fit in the Jeep. There may be clearance issues on the Bel Air lol
@edspencer71212 жыл бұрын
I've got an example of full tube headers, lightly ported heads, and a stock 2 barrel intake. This is 9n my 1970 Mercury Cougar, 2 barrel Windsor. I had a valve job done to them and at the same time I hogged out the EGR bumps from the exhaust ports, blended the bowls and port matched the openings. Put a set of Hooked Super Comp headers on it with dual exhaust to the back. I couldn't afford a new carb and intake set up at the time so I ran what the factory sent. The set up was scavenging so much the engine developed a bad lean mis at 50 MPH and got worse from there. I was only 2 miles from home to figure that out. So off comes the top off the carb and I figured to drill out the main jets 0.010" to start. Much better! I still had a hard time coming off the line, like not enough timing. Tipped in 5 degrees on the distributor and now she comes alive! Not an LS story but relatable. A few little things can make a big difference without spending a lot of money. Good video BTW.
@donthompson21882 жыл бұрын
I would love to see this test between manifolds vs shorty vs long tube headers at part throttle freeway cruise. A fuel consumption test.
@radamson12 жыл бұрын
Those are some fing pretty good factory manifolds, kinda short tube headers,
@Anarchy-Is-Liberty2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, and imagine the headaches they would save on a lot of swap installs!!
@3800S12 жыл бұрын
I have always seen substantial gains across the entire rev range when upgrading from cast to long tube headers on my Buick L27 V6 engines, typically 18-20kW gain on a stock engine. I also found I am completely knock limited on cast manifolds to a max of 22º peak WOT timing where I can get to MBT of 28-29º without being knock limited once I go to long tube headers. I use the pacemaker headers here in Australia and they have tubes about 700-850mm long depending if you get the street or competition headers.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
IS THE CHANGE IN POWER FROM THE TIMING?
@3800S12 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 Not really. I ran E85 on a stock engine with cast manifolds mainly to test the knock limits of E85 and found MBT was 23, 24ishº virtually as stock, stock is 22º The headers changed the point of MBT. Oh and as for the E85 I saw no knock even to 40º. With ULP it would knock only about 2º past the factory settings with cast manifolds. So the factory cast manifolds were knock limited and MBT pretty much. With headers the MBT moved up and the knock limit moved up even more which gave much more safety margin, therefore no longer knock limited allowing MBT to be well enough below the knock limit. It would seem with these combos they behave very differently.
@hydrocarbon827211 ай бұрын
@@3800S1 I'd wager a big bet it's going to vary based on the engine - particularly the header design. Stock LS headers flow & scavenge very well, while I've seen many other engines that had headers that were huge restrictions. I certainly wouldn't think an original 1954 SBC would come close to 10lb-ft of a modern race header. Turbo guys consistently have made >1000hp (750kW) to the wheels with stock LS truck headers - and have track times that indicate it's not just a bunch of high-reading dynos.
@guy8582 жыл бұрын
been doing cars all my life.. you have some of the best videos on you-tube...
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
THNX
@CrazyPetez2 жыл бұрын
I know that the old style SBC is no longer a go-to power plant, but it would have been interesting to compare that generation’s stock log style exhaust manifolds to long tube headers. Sure there would be a much more impressive gains with the headers.
@dmw73202 жыл бұрын
Or a test with the new Hooker cast iron manifolds for the SBC.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
done that many times-same type of gains
@dennisrobinson8008 Жыл бұрын
It's similar. They've done that comparison often. 0
@driverjamescopeland Жыл бұрын
Since GM pioneered their modern casting practices, factory manifolds have been outflowing most shorty headers since the LS6. I'm not surprised to see them hold up well, in comparison to full length primaries... especially given how most of today's full length headers have junk collectors.
@richardholdener1727 Жыл бұрын
flow is not what makes power on the headers vs manifolds-that would be scavenging
@driverjamescopeland Жыл бұрын
@Richard Holdener - what you meant to say is "[bench] flow is not [necessarily] what makes power...". Had you said that, you'd be correct. As stated, however, it's quite wrong. Flow is literally what makes power. The power of any internal combustion engine is most closely related to its flow rate. Better scavenging IS LITERALLY better flow. It is an increase in volumetric efficiency, caused by the low pressure left behind by exhaust pulses. True, you you can have a header that "flows well" on the bench, but is crap for your engine... but that's because the bench doesn't "flow" like your engine, and your engine isn't "flowing" as well with those particular headers. All other parameters kept relatively the same (fuel, compression, timing, bore, stroke, etc...), scavenging increases horsepower because you are decreasing resistance through the exhaust stroke, and increasing volumetric efficiency as the piston slows to TDC and transitions into the intake phase.
@brucebeamer22982 жыл бұрын
Was investigating cams for my 5.7 challenger and I think it was motor trend had you as an Expert on cams and intake/ exhaust 👍👍
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
there are cam videos up on 5.7L Hemis
@brucebeamer22982 жыл бұрын
Yep, been watching, just not sure of what I'm hearing, lol
@ianm4322 жыл бұрын
This is exactly what I needed to see. I picked up a set of 1 7/8 headers for CHEAP for my 6.2. They won't fit currently but it's an easy modification for them to work. The problem is then I'm left with a set of nice stainless headers that only fit a 03+ crown vic when I pull them off to go turbo.I was planning on running manifolds until I sort any bugs out of my l92 (with tsp stage 1 LS3 225/230 .629"/615" 114) swap before building the turbo buuuut cheap is cheap.
@P71ScrewHead2 жыл бұрын
i have an 09 P71 that i'm about to put Maximizer/OBX headers on, gonna be sweet.. Oh, n cams n other bolt ons..
@ianm4322 жыл бұрын
@@P71ScrewHead I've been down that road with the 4.6 in other crown vics and I was always disappointed. I hope you have a converter and gears on order too. I'm very excited to finally make real power with the 6.2 LS swap.
@P71ScrewHead2 жыл бұрын
@@ianm432 Oh yeah, i know what you mean, modding the 2v is more for the love of the 2v than for huge power gains..lol If anyone really wants great amounts of power, everyone'd build big blocks, that'll be my next build, a 632ci BBC/BBF over 800hp n/a.. With power adder looking at over 2k hp.. Edit: forgot to mention that yeah, getting 3.73s n might hold off on a converter for future mod..
@ianm4322 жыл бұрын
@@P71ScrewHead absolutely do not skip the converter. It was the best mod I ever did on my 2011. Better than the 5spd swap on my 2003
@P71ScrewHead2 жыл бұрын
@@ianm432 what stall did you go with?? i have looked into a 2800 stall tho..
@billybobbubbawubba9457 Жыл бұрын
This is a testament to the stock manifolds! I'll think I'll pass on my stock 5.3.
@JimLBon2 жыл бұрын
I’m always interested in this topic because I’ve never met a set of headers worth the trouble.
@177SCmaro2 жыл бұрын
Funny, for me every set of headers I've put on were worth it. I even fabricated headers for my camaro one bend at a time because of the unusual motor swap.
@P71ScrewHead2 жыл бұрын
what do you have, a 4cy motor?? lol.. Longtube headers always win..
@christophermix68452 жыл бұрын
Really? Headers were definitely my favorite mod that I've done to my truck. Huge difference!
@randyschmidt192 жыл бұрын
@@P71ScrewHead hahah and even on a 4cyl gains are abundant, especially in the midrange
@P71ScrewHead2 жыл бұрын
@@randyschmidt19 for sure man, never seen an engine not benefit from longtubes..
@milojanis49012 жыл бұрын
You make great videos, Richard. That said, it may help to make a comparison list, in addition to the graphs. For instance....... Stock manifold Hp Hp w/LTs 415hp 432 Don't have room on phone screen to elaborate. You provide great info, but there's so much, it's hard to keep it all straight. But I'm subscribed, and I like 👍 👌!
@silentbravo2 жыл бұрын
Yeah the editing is quite good already but the numbers that flash on the screen could just be placed somewhere on the screen for a short while as they are discussed, like the cam specs listed, and also especially in the dyno charts I would like to see the gains/losses posted as a number somewhere on the screen, so we don't have to go count bars and guess. Engine Masters (motortrend) on KZfaq did some really nice editing on their dyno videos, a full screen break down with the gains posted and each runs maximum numbers.
@Tedkelvin2 жыл бұрын
Next do 180⁰ headers
@genemounce83022 жыл бұрын
I learnted somethin new, AGAIN. 😎🤙 Appreciate it R.H. saving me money on the daily!
@michaelallen25012 жыл бұрын
I feel like my 1 3/4 longtubes are the right package for my boosted and cammed gen 2 LT1. When it eventually gets some AFR heads, a larger cam and a smaller pulley it'll be time for 1 7/8 longtubes.
@FXIIBeaver2 жыл бұрын
Go 2 inch
@1flynlow2 жыл бұрын
@@FXIIBeaver go 3 inch
@FXIIBeaver2 жыл бұрын
@@1flynlow they make 3 inch headers? Does that even fit anything not custom fabbed for it.
@Anarchy-Is-Liberty2 жыл бұрын
@@1flynlow Go 12 inch!
@OOICU8122 жыл бұрын
@@Anarchy-Is-Liberty anything over 7 inches is overkill.
@venturahwy762 жыл бұрын
Now I'd like to see a test Stock exhaust manifolds VS holley cast iron manifolds VS headers. With and without cam.
@krisjones12862 жыл бұрын
Didn't motortend do just that?
@venturahwy762 жыл бұрын
@@krisjones1286 I just read that article. Search for Everthing you need to know about hooker small block chevy manifolds. They say if your over 550 hp use headers if your after every last hp.
@Jesusprayerwarriorbw2 жыл бұрын
Love how u get down to brass tacks! Now try to get the Koenigsegg free valve to have precise control of the valves!
@YZFoFittie2 жыл бұрын
Been waiting for this!
@sirjhonson82182 жыл бұрын
The LS manifolds are good enough and dont go threw header gaskets . Every time I had headers I kept burning out gaskets . If your on the street I would manifolds and headers on the track.
@artlife62102 жыл бұрын
try Percys next time, never had one leak in years on multiple vehicles
@rustinpenner56612 жыл бұрын
31 lb ft of torque difference is enuf for me to put up with headers...
@coupe50h2 жыл бұрын
I agree, also burning up starters isnt worth the trouble. Sure you can wrap it but not worth it for me on the street anyway.
@rustinpenner56612 жыл бұрын
@@coupe50h never had the starter issue... Maybe depends on the application
@coupe50h2 жыл бұрын
@@rustinpenner5661 yes indeed, also Coated headers are the way to go, and in most applications, wrap all nearby wiring, even if it's several inches from the tubes. Another thing is plug wires sure do catch alot of abuse, of course there is remedies for that too.
@joeyjojojr.shabadoo9152 жыл бұрын
Years back, In an S10 SBC swap, I started out with factory manifolds (the little logs that went over the plugs, passenger side angle output, drivers side straight dump) and at the time, there were no long tube headers available, so I went with what everyone else was doing, the Headman shorty headers and WHAT A MISTAKE. For the little bit gained above 4500 RPM, too much was lost everywhere below. I will never buy shorty headers for anything ever again.
@otm6462 жыл бұрын
This concept that Richard pushes of being "flow restricted" is flawed. I understand why he does it, it's simplifies things for the average person but it masks the true physics of what's going on here. The engine is a pump, any type of inlet or outlet appendage is going to reduce air flow through the pump as it's a restriction. Might not be a major issue but it's still a factor. Pumping losses from the exhaust system don't go away under any circumstances.
@jimmy_olds2 жыл бұрын
Now do an over plug log style SBC manifolds versus long tubes! Lol I bet the gains would be much more dramatic. Those manifolds were/are awful.
@venturahwy762 жыл бұрын
And hooker cast iron manifolds VS stock VS headers
@jimmy_olds2 жыл бұрын
@@venturahwy76 yes!! Good call
@bowhite12932 жыл бұрын
I tested 1 7/8 vs 2 on my SS. Gained nothing at or below peak but did gain in the overrev. NA LS3.
@BadAssEngineering2 жыл бұрын
Another video just like this with a Gen V engine would be money
@ja54352 жыл бұрын
I would literally do anything to buy one of your old Ls based engine’s
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
go to the junkyard-that is where I get all of mine
@brandonpayne12072 жыл бұрын
I would love to see a comparison between different sizes of longtube headers. 1 5/8 vs 1 3/4 vs 1 7/8 on a stock 350 or ls 5.3l, although it might be hard to find a 1 5/8 for an ls. And the difference between similar headers with cheap vs proper collector.
@milojanis49012 жыл бұрын
Dead giveaway as to the easy big power LS engines make compared to traditional SBC is the lack of 1-5/8" header size!! They don't do anything for the LS motors, except-MAYBE-the 4.8L....
@FirstLast-we8cb2 жыл бұрын
@@milojanis4901 Agreed. I at one time had found a comparison... but damn if I can't find it now. Results being I have 1 7/8 long tubes on my 6.2 Denali.
@HioSSilver19992 жыл бұрын
1 7/8 for my 6.0 2500hd seems to work very well. Only ls i would put 1 3/4 on is a 5.3. And even then 1 7/8 might be better.
@brandonpayne12072 жыл бұрын
@@milojanis4901 yeah, I think the 4.8 would be the only ls to utilize the 1 5/8 headers but I think the exhaust port is bigger that 1 5/8 anyways so it probably wouldn't be any better than stock.
@brandonpayne12072 жыл бұрын
@@HioSSilver1999 I have a 5.3l with a BTR torque cam and I went with the 1 3/4 on it but it is my daily driver too. I think if I went with a stage 3 cam or wilder then the 1 7/8 would probably be better.
@VcArena2 жыл бұрын
I really like this test. Basically I have a lq9 with a stock ls3 topend and a small custom cam which is 228 231 620 lift or something really close. Runs decent, but was dynoed in 2nd gear instead of 3rd. Only managed 395wheel but did have the wrong valve springs from the eBay seller who built the heads. Almost dropped multiple valves.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
also test in 3rd gear
@VcArena2 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 I wish the tuner did, was declined because I had 2:73s and he was scared the driveshaft would fly out 😞
@rickgrimes41332 жыл бұрын
You should do a test on crossover pipes x,h,y And the effects it has on the power band Scavenging
@linoleumshake2 жыл бұрын
8-1 collector too. Sounds amazing
@evanc61102 жыл бұрын
Yes I'd like to see this. I don't know the size limitations in the dyno room. I would atleast like richard to make a comment on this.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
Engine Masters did a H and X pipe test I think
@rickgrimes41332 жыл бұрын
Please revisit it!!! Love to see you do it
@dilsher122 жыл бұрын
Gotta love the torque 'curve' if you can call it that with the whipple
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
plateau
@timcartwright46792 жыл бұрын
One of the more interesting results I've seen was cast iron manifolds with a Y pipe into a large single system.
@ME-pl4gx2 жыл бұрын
Do you remember the results?
@timcartwright46792 жыл бұрын
@@ME-pl4gx it was on one of the engine masters episodes.
@jasonlanier87582 жыл бұрын
Awesome test results
@MustangsTrainsMowers2 жыл бұрын
Just don’t buy cheap thin wall headers. Early 2000’s I installed Hedman 2 piece long tube headers on a 1983 F150 with the 300-6 and 4 speed. The starter was complete trapped by the tubes and the amount of heat radiating into the engine bay was immense. Either buy good thick metal headers or wrap them or get them ceramic coated. The EFI 300-6 started with the 1987 F150 and I found them to be much more reliable than the carbed ones that were a hassle to keep running good.
@radioguy16202 жыл бұрын
one trick most miss with the carbed 300's were the carb was two piece and would still run pretty well if the two large phillips screws that join the parts together were a bit loose.used to use an offset screwdriver to tighten mine regularly , made a difference.
@MustangsTrainsMowers2 жыл бұрын
I had lots of trouble with those carbs. I’d rather have a 2 barrel or small 4 barrel or else EFI.
@rogerowens56692 жыл бұрын
You always have to factor in the Scavenging effect a lot of people don't realize or even know how it works
@1967davethewave2 жыл бұрын
You are so right. That is why I watch these engine experts like Richard. They actually teach you what's going on and why it's good or bad, not just hyperbole from something that someone said 50 years ago and it's been repeated as truth ever since.
@1flynlow2 жыл бұрын
but would it be better with an x pipe here rather than the divorced headers?
@rogerowens56692 жыл бұрын
@@1967davethewave I don't even understand that statement Scavenging is a natural occurrence is going to happen and what you want is to promote better Scavenging I don't know anything about this fifty-year-old whatever nonsense you're talking about building power has always been about math before computers came out you have to be able to literally write down the equation for horsepower
@rogerowens56692 жыл бұрын
@@1flynlow to be honest with you bro you're you're talking about a full on exhaust system we're even the size of the collector makes a difference
@1967davethewave2 жыл бұрын
@@rogerowens5669 What? I agree with you and you call my statement nonsense? Are you off your meds today?
@captainboose87882 жыл бұрын
Might have to grab a set of Header for my Hemi Ram and 6.1 Challenger, good stuff
@venturahwy762 жыл бұрын
Wow not as much of a difference as I thought there would be. The scavenging effect down low was a surprise.
@jacklynch60892 жыл бұрын
Please add Hooker Manifolds to a test like this
@kelinjohnson74212 жыл бұрын
The worst things about this guys videos is when they end.
@danielwilson66652 жыл бұрын
That’s a great demonstration of how much more power is available when a tuned length long tube header produces such a strong scavenging effect. Some guys I know just can’t understand how the higher pressure exhaust pulses can be combined in such a way, as to create a much lower pressure area in the collector that actually scavenges more spent exhaust out of the cylinders. It’s not magic but when comparing the results of this fairly conclusive dyno test, those power gains across such a broad rpm range can definitely be felt in the seat of the pants 😱.
@Anarchy-Is-Liberty2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, which boils down to not much at all!!
@bajkerjohnvolta2 жыл бұрын
this test would much more interesting to se on N/A setup. i changed header on my ex Honda civic 1.4 D14A3 (75HP) engine from stock 4-1 (short) to 4-2-1 long (unequal length) and i can say difference while driving was extremely noticeable, car gained LOTS of torque. HP wise i don't know what happened, but there was some gain for sure. Before you had to wait on those 4,5k RPM for engine to breathe well, after long tube 4-2-1 header, engine started to get power around 2k - 2,5k rpm and acceleration was noticeable compared to stock.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
so no dyno test?
@bajkerjohnvolta2 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 nope, dont have anyone around to test it.
@frankdatank77512 жыл бұрын
I was running 40 ifr, 72 primary jet on my ls swapped obs with stock cast headers. When I installed 1 3/4 headers, I had to lean out the jets to 35 ifr and 65 primary jet , so yes theres a big scavenging effect with longtube headers, I had to jet down because of how rich it was with tubes , just an fyi
@darrenditmar29912 жыл бұрын
Sport bikes are a good example of this Most every performance sport bike has like has a 4 and a one collector. Harley's use a 2 in the one that offers the same scavenging effect to up the performance versus a straight pipe.
@foxfordcatguy22832 жыл бұрын
*4 into 1 *2 into 1
@deansapp46352 жыл бұрын
How about a test between stock exhaust manifolds and Extrude hone exhaust manifolds
@danielpeterson28432 жыл бұрын
Finally I get to find out if the tbss manifolds on my 5.3 are robbing power
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
tbss intake manifold?
@shadowopsairman15832 жыл бұрын
The breadbox intake which is on Gen 4 LS and Trailblazer are the same and perform better than the Gen 3 Intake. So Gen 3-4-aftermarket MSD Air Force/FAST LSX/R/T
@danielpeterson28432 жыл бұрын
No exhaust manifolds. They were a tight inexpensive option to fit my 4wd s10
@danielpeterson28432 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 I did however recently get a tbss I take for the lq9 I'm swapping into the truck. Just working on choosing a cam
@scotttimpany28452 жыл бұрын
Recently became aware that the B16 heads are a 6 bolt version of the LS3 head. Kind of neat. That givves guys another choice in LSX heads... the Chevrolet LSX-DR doesn't seem to get much love.
@stephenhodge64412 жыл бұрын
What is a b16 head? I googled it and Honda motors are showing up in the search.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
B15 is the GM Perf crate motor
@scotttimpany28452 жыл бұрын
@@stephenhodge6441 Typo... fat fingers and bad eyes. B15... where "B" is for boost and 15 means 15 lbs. I did some surfing yesterday and found that GMPP makes a few 6 bolt performance heads. You can buy em as cast or CNC machined, but they're expensive. Prices are much higher than aftermarket items from Texas Speed etc.
@silentbravo2 жыл бұрын
Great video, excellent info. I see you have your clips in wrong order though, not that it matters to much. We go from stock manifold/long tube comparison on stock block to the full beast supercharged dyno run, and then back to the stock vs cammed setup on the finale. Thanks for the content.
@NightWrencher2 жыл бұрын
What about in a turbo application? Long tube headers vs stock. I imagine it wont affect the output as much because the turbo itself is a restriction? 🧐
@FXIIBeaver2 жыл бұрын
Shorties always shorties.
@evanc61102 жыл бұрын
I think he covered this in a video somewhere
@NightWrencher2 жыл бұрын
@@evanc6110 I dont think he has because he said in a livestream recently that he wanted to test ut
@177SCmaro2 жыл бұрын
In theory, a turbo should like equal length runners with runner lenght being a compromise between response and scavenging (so, most stock and street applications short or even no runners, racing medium to long) but I've never seen different primary tube lengths tested to confirm this.
@NightWrencher2 жыл бұрын
@@177SCmaro yeah but one you build enough back pressure, it wont actually matter what the tubes are. At least thats what I think
@cuzz632 жыл бұрын
I would like to see what mid length do vs long tube...sometimes your limited to what you can use and its nice to know if its worth it. Also if you have mid length headers and added a collector extension would you see much difference.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
that was almost included
@Anarchy-Is-Liberty2 жыл бұрын
He's got a video out somewhere using cast iron, shorty, and long tubes. I was very surprised to find out that the gains really aren't at all that much, like maybe 4-10hp on average! It's totally made me re-think my future street builds between 400-600hp and all the headaches that are sometimes associated with trying to fit a set of over priced, named brand, leaky junk headers on a vehicle!! Do I really want to spend $350+ dollars, endless headaches, and banging on header tubes to gain 3-6hp? Yeah, probably not!
@cuzz632 жыл бұрын
@@Anarchy-Is-Liberty you have a point esp when your talking about under 400hp engines.
@cuzz632 жыл бұрын
@@Anarchy-Is-Liberty depending on the motor there are often factory exhaust that arent awful.
@kennybrandow49942 жыл бұрын
X pipe vs y pipe vs h pipe no muffler
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
I think Engine Masters did that
@cartermackenzie11352 жыл бұрын
Now try an 8 to 1 header
@Wickhaven12 жыл бұрын
My stock Pontiac exhaust manifolds can care less...Anything was better than that 180 hp! 800 is a hell of a difference (cam, heads, pistons, ring gap, rods, crank, fuel injection, 7875 Vs, e85)...Modified factory Y pipe, swollen up to 3” feeding into a single 3’ long 3” down pipe
@sethl66262 жыл бұрын
I’d like to see stock manifolds versus shorties on a 5.3, I swapped to shorties on my stock LM7 and I personally noticed quite a difference
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
that video is up
@jimmyjimbo612 жыл бұрын
Richard, I realize that 99% of folks could care less about cast iron exhaust manifolds. And I realize that Cast iron exhaust manifolds kill power substantially, especially in the upper rpm ranges. I have a set of cnc'ed and ported (by Brzezinski) corvette ram horns and wonder just how much power they are capable of making over 3000 rpm, but... I cant find any dyno numbers anywhere. I would really be interested in what it would take to make 450 to 475hp with these manifolds. Thanks for reading, Jim
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
STOCK MANIFOLDS TYPICALLY LOSE MORE POWER IN THE LOWER RPM RANGES, WHERE THEY LACK SCAVENGING, THE PORTED RAMS MIGHT FLOW WELL UP TOP
@edwardprokopchuk32642 жыл бұрын
If the difference between stock vs long tube headers is only 10HP, then I can probably get that gain from primary (maybe even secondary) cat delete and save me a ton of money in the process. Probably much easier to increase flow by removing restrictions (cat) than by improving the manifold design. Great video!
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
the gains from long tubes are not flow restrictions
@chopperking0072 жыл бұрын
Yeh what e said....
@mewrongway2 жыл бұрын
You the Man Richard! Thanks
@Tumbleweed_Tx2 жыл бұрын
what I learned was they don't offer up enough performance advantage to go through the hassle of installing them on your car unless the engine is already out. I know, that's an unpopular opinion here.
@mb-fs1yo2 жыл бұрын
Would like to see this test including the truck log manifold, srt manifold, and long tubes on a 5.7- 6.4 hemi.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
I HAVE RUN HEADER TESTS ON THE HEMI
@NightWrencher2 жыл бұрын
Now this is what I really needed to know
@infamousnova2 жыл бұрын
What you gonna do now?
@smokenchoken17362 жыл бұрын
In the Ford FE world a set of stock manifolds vs pickup truck headers are worth 30+ hp even on a basically stock low compression emissions motor
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
BBC headers can be worth a lot too
@smokenchoken17362 жыл бұрын
Definitely, most definitely
@D3thM3tal2 жыл бұрын
I'd be curious how the home made pass side turbo manifold/header is compared to the Hooker Blackheart stuff. Toss in a comparison between a log or Fahler Speed style manifold and everyone will see what is worth doing.
@dilsher122 жыл бұрын
I'm quite sure it would make not much of a difference unless you're making way over 1000hp .
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
the Holley turbo system is somewhat restrictive (the merge point) after the cross over. A different design with more flow will add power and drop back pressure
@russelljackson70342 жыл бұрын
Right on
@Johnnyroten2 жыл бұрын
I don’t like how you change components up like adding a cam or valve springs. Can’t you just do a straight up comparison with a stock engine? Some of us just want to know if long tubes will benefit us without mechanical upgrades.
@dandewar84032 жыл бұрын
A video on working out matching header pipe sizes to the motor would be good. A K series Honda won’t need 1 7/8” header pipes but does say a mid sized motor like the 3800??
@BeamRider1002 жыл бұрын
Per piston the K24 would be flowing and revving much more.
@rickypennington95442 жыл бұрын
I would like something on another Other Guys engine. Dodge 4.7l v8. Plenty of those in Ram, Dakota, and Durangos.
@jamesgeorge48742 жыл бұрын
Nobody makes cams, heads, intake aftermarket performance parts for them, maybe headers, but they aren't known for their toughness, it was designed for the 99 Jeep Grand Cherokee, as a lightweight, torque biased V8. Their internals are weak.
@Einimas2 жыл бұрын
Maybe you covered it in one of the previous videos, have you tried a long tube headder vs stock on high comp motor?
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
same kind of results
@exploringgodscountry9 ай бұрын
I'm curious about the LS1/LS6 (C5 Corvette) manifolds versus the newer log style exhaust manifolds. The C5 Vette manifolds almost look like headers but are cast of course.
@richardholdener17279 ай бұрын
they are short-long tubes work much better
@EricErnst2 жыл бұрын
I'd like to see long tubes vs manifolds on a supercharged application. Maybe even shorties if they're available.I feel like the positive pressure on the intake is more powerful than the scavenging effect from the headers and therefore nullifies the positive effects of the headers. The cylinder filling is done primarily through the positive pressure from the intake rather than the negative pressure wave in the exhaust. An episode of engine masters had a similar result where header/exhaust size didn't seem to matter in a supercharged application. Then the power gain is an issue of headers having superior flow and not the scavenging effect. I know it is fairly uncommon to find someone who has spent thousands on a supercharger and is running the stock manifolds so there aren't that many examples in the wild. The example you show here shows a power gain with the bigger headers. I believe that can be attributed to the higher flow rate of the bigger 1⅞ primaries. If I'm wrong, please correct me. You've certainly seen a lot more examples of this than I have. This application is unlike a turbocharged application as there is only additional pressure on the intake rather than the exhaust.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
reflected waves (intake and exhaust) are still play on a supercharged motor, the short runners in a typical PD blower intake are not effective in this rpm range (they are tuned for 9000+). they do not work with the header scavenging
@lilman2272 жыл бұрын
Question. Could you theoretically increase horsepower on a supercharged engine by decreasing the blower pulley diameter, then tune it by scaling the fuel injectors linearly with the percentage increase of the supercharger rpm? Basically tune the vehicle without involving the ecm
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
if you knew the change in airflow and AF for both sides of the equation and both were linear (might not be the case)
@lilman2272 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks for the reply! There’s enough equipment over here for me to simulate what the change in airflow will be, so thanks for the heads up there! I’m gonna give it a shot! I have a 10% overdrive pulley for a 2.4L IHI twin screw supercharger on a 6.2L v8 engine. I’m assuming 11.4% bigger injectors is close enough to make up for it. My next question would be if the clutched pulley on the blower will give me trouble. I think it’s a niche situation at that point, so I’ll have to test it myself.
@morelanmn2 жыл бұрын
I did a paper in high school on headers. Two items I could never get the manufactures to answer. Item one: Does the same header made of different metals flow at a different rate. Carbon steel, vrs stainless steel, vrs titanium tubing, vrs, coatings? Item two: What header collector flows better? The square four that you see on almost all headers produced now(88). During that time the fast racer ran custom made flat four collectors(OOOO). Even Chrysler use them on the factory race cars they produced. The Chrysler Kit cars. What set of collectors is better?
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
collector size, shape and length all change the power curve (there is no ideal-except possible for a given combination and designed operating range).
@brianfrost3032 жыл бұрын
The only time i've seen a flat header collector used was for space limitations. But it would be interesting to compare them on a dyno.
@morelanmn2 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 ,, Thank you for the reply, But does what the material the header is made of matters? (stainless is smoother than carbon steel) ,,Then does the same headers with only the collector shape change only ( yes I know two pipes will be longer) effect the data.
@Anarchy-Is-Liberty2 жыл бұрын
I would have loved to seen a set of shorty (block hugger) type headers tested as well!! Building an S10, one of the things I'm told all the time is to use "block hugger" headers, yet it was pounded into my head my entire life that to make real power from a set of headers, you need to use long tube headers!! I have always wondered if cast iron manifolds vs block huggers vs long tube headers was actually a thing. At this point, I am planning on welding up my own set of long tube headers for the S10, but would be nice to know if all of the effort is worth it. Engine is a 460 BBC with 620+hp, and will be running a 250hp shot of NOS along with it.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
long tubes make more than every other short-style header or cast manifold (even block hugger)
@Mopargocar Жыл бұрын
Nice video but not one dyno run we can see? It'd be nice to hear it run.
@richardholdener1727 Жыл бұрын
if you listen-there was dyno noise
@Mopargocar Жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 again, you're providing great info so don't think I'm trolling. I'd just like to see some full dyno runs.
@scottpynn91082 жыл бұрын
Love the videos as always. did you ever get to test the LS4 intake on a 4.8 or a 5.3 vs a LS1 or LS6 intake? would love to see the results as its so cheap and readily available
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
Not yet!
@scutchnuts2 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 have you tested 1 7/8 shorties?
@greasemonkeychris41282 жыл бұрын
Have you done a tri-y vs 4-1 comparison? There's probably bugger all difference between them in reality but there seems to be two distinct camps claiming one is better than the other.
@koalapwr2 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@jesusflores39078 ай бұрын
i have a doubt, why it makes 433 hp almost bone stock on the dyno more than the gm numbers of 364 hp advertises?, is it because of open exhaust, the cam swap, or because of running without accesories, or the efi custom pcm?
@richardholdener17278 ай бұрын
all of that-GM tests and certifies the power output of their stock motors differently-with all accs, full exhaust, fuel air intake, run at 200 degrees with the factory tune
@melancoholic35962 жыл бұрын
Hey Richard, I'm curious about your thoughts on job security as things are trending towards electric vehicles. Do you know if what you do will still be allowed in the future? I love engines and want to keep them alive as long as possible but I worry about their place in the world moving forward. Do you think they'll still allow gasoline powered vehicles but with a tax so that only the wealthy can collect them?
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
that would be along way off and I can install a Kenne Bell Boost a Pump on an EV Too! PS-I've also sun hybrid vehicles at Bonneville
@Toys4Life2 жыл бұрын
If each test had a set of catalytic converters on it, how different do you think the results would be. Would the cats kill the scavenging?
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
SCAVENGING STILL WORKS
@WandersOfficial2 жыл бұрын
thank you for doing these types of really detailed analyisis...im in love with the content.!> dude..make a video of you shredding a car or truck some where...we need to see you drive some wild vehicles..q>>!>q>>!>q>!q
@ophirb25 Жыл бұрын
I wonder what is the limit - if any - to the length of the headers, is there a point where they become too long and drop power.
@mattmorrison69582 жыл бұрын
Like that you emphasized that it isn't just flow. Also the relation between camshaft and headers, with the headers likely being able to "protect" the bottom and midrange from the potential reversion from a more aggressive cam profile. Would the supercharged application be more about reducing exhaust pumping losses with a larger primary since there is such a large delta P during overlap where scavenging is never an issue?
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
scavenging still takes place-the big difference might be that the supercharged motor has a very short intake runner length (not in sync with headers)
@gristlevonraben2 жыл бұрын
very cool video
@brysons7525 Жыл бұрын
Hey Richard, I may have missed it, but on the Supercharged LS. Was there a difference in boost numbers with the different headers, everything else being the same? I was curious if there mightve been a restriction there. 🤔
@Jackdelfranco682 жыл бұрын
Nice work! Any chance you can show a comparison between shorty and long tube heders?
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
that video is up
@dannynorth10562 ай бұрын
Hi Richard, for my 06 Z71 I can only find exhaust systems that use the original style gm cross over to passenger side. Even the long tube types use it. It seems that this would cause unequal flow or is it negligible? Mild cam and cai so far. Thanks!