I love that Prof actually pushes his guests to justify their points and offers a lot of his own opinions rather than just rolling over and letting them say whatever they want.

CAN YOU BELIEVE MY PLAYGROUP IS DOING THIS TO MY POOR DECK

You hit it exactly: Playgroup discussion, keep multiple decks and try new things (star magic, planechase etc)

So...really interested in seeing the “Hot Daxos” deck.

Seto Kaiba spends money to win games. Not to have fun in EDH. Screw the rules I have money!

I am 99% sure this was a video to justify Prof purchasing a Gaea's Cradle.

This conversation seems to once again come down to people understanding their decks’ power levels and communicating about them ahead of time.

That's the first time I have heard anyone else making sure that the basic lands match the plane for your commander! You rock!

My solution turned out to be trying out Pauper EDH. Power creep isn't scary when new staples are one dollar tops.

I just started playing Commander this year (and Magic entirely) and was introduced by a group of long-term players with pretty impressive collections. It was a bit of a challenge once the beginner phase wore off and they stopped holding back, and I had to invest quite a bit to stay competitive. Luckily, they are pretty cool and are willing to play at lower power for the sake of fun sometimes. Edit: The point is it boils down to communication with who you are playing with and coming to a consensus on what power level you want to play at.

I simply loved this episode. So true in so many points! excellent job, prof!

This is a certified hood classic

Aquaman called, he wants his pants back.

Life gain with no win con. Sounds like a level of hell I don't want to be on.

One of the issues for me isn’t so much the arms race, it’s the time requirement to always upgrade decks.

The razor blade analogy was hilarious 😂

Pay to win? Let me introduce you to my proxy tribal

The arms race is out of hand on MTGO. Even with disclaimer *100% Jank, Testing, No Refined Decks* people join with turn 5 kozilek and say “well at least it’s not turn 3 with boots” The extreme power spike now makes it so “casual,” players are running what would be high power level decks two years ago.

This is a very good episode and I love the communication between the two of you. The thing I like the most about this episode is the "I don't want my fun to stop you from having fun" and I love that this conversation is being had. I'm a person who is having fun when everyone is having fun

This was such a great conversation. I'm all for people owning and running multiple decks to rotate through during game nights. My big concern is that new players may not have the card selection to do that, at least not effectively. In the pre-Covid times I had a really sweet Marwyn elfball deck that I would bring to game stores expressly to loan new players, so that no matter what the table was doing, they could get in and play at the same level.

At 10:00, when talking about razor blades, what I *heard* Prof say was, “Stick another razor on there, it’s the Mox Seven”

This series has quickly become my favorite series of yours. I love the in-depth conversations you curate, and the variety of different topics you have hit upon so far. Thank you!

We had a arms race in our play group this year. Someone in my play group picked up a Tabernacle in January. and Now i have the 5 original power lands - Tabernacle, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, Karakas, Library of Alexandria.

In our play group we have a rule of "I'm fine with you playing it if you're fine with me blowing it up", it tends to solve most issues.

Engagement because this is a great topic. I feel there's quite a difference between edh and standard. In my opinion this "drama" of powercreep stems from that unsaid rule of standard/sealed of "win at all costs" instead of edh's rule of "let's have fun at all costs".

I have a huge Magic collection dating back 20 plus years and I enjoy trying to find spots for cards that don't see play in other formats.

me: Are you gonna ultimate Tevesh? some evil edh player: yup me: sweet my commander says Phage

"The solution isn't to spend $200 on a Commander deck, it's to spend $1400 on seven Commander decks." - The Professor, December 2020.

My first response to "look what I got, gaea's cradle" isn't to recoil, it's to go "hell yeah, that's sick"

Great chat 👌 Good points brought up. As a long time edh player, the “arms race” / new cards is fun and keeps me up to date with new sets / buying singles. Keeps interest in my decks and fun new options so they don’t get boring. Can always put the old cards back in as well. Though I’m on a budget, usually putting in the new good $2 creature that synergies with my strategy. As a Shirei player, finding new 1 power creatures to use is enjoyable. Love using new budget stuff and breaking it. Nothing more satisfying then stomping the LGS guy with a $2000 deck with my $60 Shirei common death loops.

I have a few decks of varying power levels in order to match the table that I'm playing with. I do however upgrade those decks as new cards come out but his very rarely is a significant boost in power and is often a quality of life change. I do however have one deck that I will not upgrade anymore as it is on the upper level of power for where I feel a casual commander deck can beat. The path to upgrading the deck further is a very clear and obvious one but I refused to take it down that road because it will consistently start winning on Turn 3 and that's not really fun for anybody if they didn't sign up for that kind of game

I'm so glad to hear that someone else matches their basic lands to their Commander! Everyone in my playgroup thinks it's weird that I do that.

Commander has two opposing goals: "Play what your opponents can enjoy" and "Play what you enjoy (which probably involves winning)". The first can only sustain itself within a self-policing repeated group, because it's a classic prisoner's dilemma: playing what you enjoy is always more fun *for you*. At best, a person that is highly empathic (shares in others' fun) and has noncompetitive goals (being creative/splashy/chaotic) can accomplish both simultaneously, but that's dependent on their personality. We can't restrict the format to people with that personality. You can introduce chaotic elements for winning (points system/planechase) to level the playing field somewhat, but someone that wants to win can always optimize for them.

Thanks for the great video, guys! A high note for me was that just after Prof's shaving blade analogy, I got a Gillette ad lol

Prof, you nailed it in the head with needing multiple decks. The solution lies in WotC wanting to make a less in the short run to profit more in the long run. Making $20-30 precons of different archetypes with good value year after year gives us the choice to keep good backups that we as players can choose to keep as is or upgrade. The Inalla precon was very underwhelming. So I've dedicated my time to making that jank better. I'm never going to go out of my way to drop it and make new decks that I don't know I may not enjoy. It'll just be wasted money and a frustrating experience. But feed me precons to choose from that aren't overcosted in mana cost, and I'll buy in.

hearing the professor talk about on theme and artwork includes in his edh was super relatable for me.

That point about a new player being stomped after being told it was a casual format really hit home for me. My first time ever playing commander I sat down with three of my friends who tought me how to play with my awful Doran toughness deck, and they pulled out Najeela, Atraxa Superfriends, and Brago Stax. I almost quit the format after that. Thank goodness I found a playgroup that is social/casual enough to let me explore my interests and learn and develop without completely stomping me.

I don't even play commander but I'm gonna watch this whole video because this stuff is fascinating. Thanks as always Professor!

The systems in place to police the format: Rule Zero/Power Levels/The Social Contract. where never universally understood or accepted. Moreover they are insufficient when Commander is the most popular and widely played format especially when it’s now being played more often and through different mediums with strangers.

i'd say my signature deck is my atraxa superfriends, but I still have a lot of fun playing with my hydra tribal or with my gishath one. I always try to match my dexk powerlevel with the table i'm going to play with, That's where the fun comes from.

Prof, I'm so happy to hear about your Basic Lands matching the Plane of your commander! I do a similar thing where I have a process to determine which basics to use in my decks (mine are more art / style based but still)!

THANK YOU PROF! i enjoy videos like this one and was refreshing hoping to find and untitled podcast!

Dave, that nerf gun dig at the end made me lolololol super hard

Really great conversation and great conclusions. Commander is like a neighbourhood which has become gentrified. The solution is to find somewhere new to start over . custom rules and innovation by players themselves offers the best chance of this.

Great point on Tevesh Szat, it feels bad to lose your commander. If getting your commander shuffled into your deck is annoying (which was why the tuck rule was changed), having it stolen is outright frustrating.

Very nice video! I think that one of the most important steps in stopping me from running the arms race was realizing that EDH is not about winning. For example I have a (blue) Braids deck that's not about winning but about having everyone at the table make huge, ridiculous plays. Sure, the deck can win, and it is decently optimized in its own way, but that's not the focus. The focus is having fun and making everyone do crazy stuff, and it's one of the decks I enjoy the most 😁

I find that the arms race can lead to two different things (My example in both cases will be Jeweled Lotus): 1. People get the cards that others play just because they are good. It's strictly better commander ramp and does something that no other card in magic really does. 2. Players adapt to the arms race in order to negate the need to keep up with stronger cards. If I'm playing a 3 colour deck I probably won't run the Lotus because I feel the need to run Collector Ouphe the more people begin to run the powerful artifact, and boy oh boy is it cheaper.

I think a healthy way to look at the game is coming to the session ready to lose 75% of the time. Some days that means no wins some days you'll get 3 wins. But if 4 people split the wins you should only expect around the average.

Personally I have always abided by this creed. Be sure to read the room /game and most importantly just because you have a card/combo or legal target(ie land) does not mean you have to make that play. With great power comes an even greater responsibility. Please remember commander is a social game meant to be fun for all those playing

Sen triplets but each one is it’s own card Gavin: WRITE THAT DOWN WRITE THAT DOWN! Disclaimer: This is a joke

18:00 it's not as long as everyone has fun, it's more along the lines that everyone agrees and plays with the same expectations.

Great video, Prof and Dave. Talking to other players is great. :]

7, 8, 9 commander decks. Those are rookie numbers! I'm working on my 39th right now!

Jumping on the Monopoly example... Playing a fully optimized deck vs a precon is like starting a game with all Baltic Avenue already owned. Everyone else is fighting over scraps while you are already making hotels. The other players won't have fun if they know defeat is inevitable, and they will be less likely to want to play again. Keeping everyone at the same power level, however high or low it may be, keeps games more "fair" for everyone.

Golden ending

I bought two of my friends each a copy of Mana Drain for their EDH decks. SELF-INFLICTED ARMS RAAAAAACE

That Craw Wurm in the thumbnail makes me really nostalgic, as it was in the first deck I ever played with together with my girlfriend at the time, even if that was only 3 years ago

I think the Arms Race is a great part of the Format. I like the ability to keep looking for cards and searching around for the greatest editions of cards. Archaic out of date decks are great too.

I love the achievment idea and I think you could even do a kickstarter with those achievments printed as cards. I feel a lot of us would be interested.

I replied to another comment down here, but thought I should say it here. Domini Metzger had a great point about the time aspect the arms race brings to Commander. I think that's one of the main and unspoken issues here. One of the best selling points of Commander is that it's supposed to be a legacy format, you don't need to get a new deck every year or two to keep playing. But especially in the last 4 years or so it feels like with how many products and overpowered cards are pushed in our faces, it makes Commander sometimes feel like oh I have to get a new deck or oh I have to replace half of the cards I have to keep up. This isn't standard or extended, I didn't abandon those formats back in 2012 or 2013 to face the issue of rotation and the costs of it now. I know I don't usually run into this issue as much now that I'm more seasoned and can ignore the itchy feeling in my wallet to buy the better version of some cards, but I know it turns ppl off when they feel like they have to buy $35-$80 cards to keep up every 2 or 3 months.

Something my playgroup liked doing when we could still play in person was laying all our decks out in a grid, and rolling to determine who played what. It has this chaos draft sort of energy that just made stuff fun even when my Arcum Dagsson deck dunks on everyone else in turn 8.

Great video! The thing I think people miss though with Tevesh is that he encourages you to sacrifice those stolen commanders after stealing them. As such, anyone playing him that doesn’t want to be a (insert bad word) has a reason (draw 3 cards) to do so. I think to be fair to Wizards, they designed the card with that in mind.

I am changing all the cards in my Commander deck to cards with the old card frame because I think they look nicer. I'm aware that it will maybe decrease the power level of my deck but I like the challange to get it to do what it is supposed to do ^^

For commander you can balance decks by following what your deck wants to do. Not just focusing on winning fast.

This entire episode hit home so hard. My local LGS is not open and has always been very optimized or higher powered, and alternative store that people play much more lower powered or gimmicky. That alternative store was open and both those kind of player began to mix, the context of this video was very much a reality for both groups to find their place to play together and enjoy the game.

Man that EDH points bit took me back. Me and my friends (still play EDH with them to this day!) came up with pretty much the same idea. Our system definitely promoted degenerate play, but hey, our decks were so jank then that going infinite or 1TKOing someone was super impressive.

I use a Tevesh Szat/Gilanra deck, and have an understanding with the playgroup that when Tevesh gets too close to ultimate, I let them take swing at him and block only to keep him alive. Keep him off the ultimate safely.

okay, good chat, lots of good important things, but there's a few big things I think was completely left out of this conversation that needs to be addressed by the community: People not fortunate enough to have playgroups, miscommunications in our language as they relate to rule 0, and the homogenization of "casual magic" into a single format that was never intended for that purpose. I've left plenty of long comments on these and other things that I personally feel need to be addressed more in these very comments on your channel, but I think I'm going to finally have to write an open letter about these issues, and this video has helped me greatly form those ideas into more sharable thoughts. so thanks.

I liked the bit with Mr Clinton smiling over the top of the table.

I know this is cliché however this is a saying for a reason. Communication is key.

As an EDH player, having multiple decks is a huge bonus for playgroups as you guys stated. I personally have a Chulane deck which I enjoy playing. It’s budgetish around $150 with no Craterhoof and mainly cards under $5. The nice thing about Chulane is that he is cheap with a lot of power, that allows budget players to compete with higher power level decks that cost a lot more money. Because of Chulane I can play budget with competitive people with $2000+ decks and I still have a chance to win. Cheap powerful cards are a huge help to players like himself. But I also have weaker decks, all the way down to a Stitcher Geralf janky monk-blue zombie tribal that is purely fun and flavour.

What I love about commander is that if I go to EDHRec or Goldfish because I want to build say, a Tatyova deck is that I have a myriad of options from where to choose from to build the deck, I have 2000 cards from which I can choose only 99, and trying to guess which are the betters or the ones that I should keep is the most fun. But I fear an arms race because it seems like there are more auto-includes than ever. I fear one day wanting to build a commander and having just 150 cards from which to choose from if I want to play "properly". I fear that one day my beloved Sword of The Animist will become a Wishcoin Crab.

I think white fixes a lot of this. Part of the issue is that most edh players that I’ve played with don’t love hate bears, land destruction, resource denial, stax, or running lots of removal. It seems like a case of wanting things both ways. If you want to curb an arms race, leaning more into white’s strengths checks many degenerate strategies. For example, if you choose to run big mana decks, you may need to deal with a static orb or Thalia every now and then. Edh would be much more balanced if the culture around what’s fun shifts to include more of white’s strengths.

Ngl a triple partner Legendary Sen Triplets sounds really fun. One's white, one's blue and one's black they all interact with each other some way. Nice thinking Prof

I like the point on, "just have more decks." Not all your decks have to be the best. I'm currently rotating through 14 different decks in my play group. Therefore my decks power levels range in; does one specific thing to win, to just a fun themed deck I through together with cards already in my collection. Magic is a game of deck building, and you can do whatever you want with it.

Everyone in every playgroup should have access to, say for example, Gaea's Cradle if they want to play with the most powerful legal cards. A print out that you cut to fit into a sleeve or even a nice $3 proxy that you buy online. Same goes for Mox Diamond, Volcanic Island etc etc. No one has to spend crazy money on this stuff if everyone, as friends, agrees that proxies are cool and you're all free to print up whatever you want to have fun with

And this is why I moved more towards the Block and Brawl formats. I don't have to worry about "keeping up", I make the deck after all the sets for that block/rotation are released and I never have to touch the deck again, and I can still get fun matches in. I still have Commander decks, but I am keeping that number to a minimum.

cool to hear Dave started on SWCCG! I started with MTG, but got heavily into SWCCG when it was out. Also love the take about not winning ever. lol i sit down to play commander and my main goal is to make the game go as long as possible. ahh good times. gonna play my circle of protection deck over skype this weekend...

It all depends on your playgroup. If you find the right one that fits your expectations then there shouldn't be an issue with an arms race.

32:00 I think this is the main thing Dave was trying to explain

The most powerful thing a new player can do is BUY SINGLES FROM THEIR LOCAL GAME STORE I remember the switch our early playgroup went through from "cards I have" to "cards I got from packs" to "cards I bought individually from the LGS/Internet"

Introducing: Trartners! 9:32

My friends and I have made an active effort to do the exact opposite. Our commander decks have been in an arms race for years now, and we're at the point where our average deck is over $1,000 just to remain competitive in the type of environment that's been cultivated by that arms race. So my last deck I put together was an Ayula, Queen Among Bears mono green bear tribal deck. And each of us are now looking at the "unofficial commander tier list" and putting together decks from the bottom 2 tiers of commanders. My Ayula deck was only a few hundred dollars, and it has neither a craterhoof nor a gaea's cradle in a mono green deck, and I can say frankly I don't miss having cards like that in the discussion almost every single game.

Really weird to hear the prof say he finds it problematic for someone to run a card that hoses a specific tech of another player they regularly play against. That’s kinda the whole fun of an arms race within a play group. I play Thraximundar, I’m expecting one of my opponents to run a Sigarda, if their deck allows for it, to counter me. And I make sure to run non-sacrifice based removal in my deck just in case. An arms race can be quite fun in a group’s meta. It keeps it evolving. It doesn’t always have to mean spending more, just building differently to keep everyone’s power level at the table in check.

I run mass land destruction on Obosh. I didn't tell the playgroup and they were impressed that I killed everyone from Dingus Egg damage using Decree of Annihilion.

My playgroup actually started using a special deck of global effects and every rotation we flip a new one. Chaos mtg think it is? Really spiced our games up I'll be discussing a points systen for sure though. Sounds fun

People have wanted EDH support, it only natural it would turn into arms race especially being the most dominant format at the moment at least in cardboard.

Hell is other people, but this video makes Commander sound close.

I have a monoblack commander. I intentionally didn't put in any tutor or Necropotence. I just wished people would focus on having fun, and stopped going all in for the win, spending thousands of dollars in cards with minimal optimization, just to have the very best cards.

prof almost predicted background enchantments in Baldur’s Gate

How many razors do we need for our razors? There was a skit on MadTV by the name of Razor Spishak, where they talk about a 20 razor shaver.

Well articulated arguments. I guess the core solution is speaking with your friends. Just like how keeping your emotions inside is bad for you. It’s damaging to have the pressure to keep up with optimized decks

Prof, you are a dapper looking man. Don't let that inner voice tell you any different

Some things were never made "specifically" to be competitive. Such as EDH. My understanding is EDH was created by pro players in-between competitive matches just to have fun. I believe it's foundation should stay in the realm of let's just have fun. Build a deck that expresses you.

I like going back to my old-school highschool roots sometimes. Limiting yourself to a block or two for deck building, reasonable budget restrictions, not having a commander (eg just a 99 card singleton). Also I am working on a set of lower powered cards for one of my decks just to be able to tone it down. I've also seen people create 2-4 decks based around the same commander without duplication, then pick one before play starts at random. It forces players to find non-optimal cards.

The issue for me with cards like Chulane and some of the cards in Commander Legends (Apex Devastator) is that you end up in a situation where cards have way too many effects tacked onto them and you end up in a Yugioh situation where you barely even consider what your opponent is doing anymore. You're playing to your win condition and ignoring everything else around you. This is what I worry about most happening to MTG.

My playgroup is super competitive and it was kind of refreshing to play in a more social beer and pretzels pod a few weeks ago. I finally played my cats and dog red white deck 🥺

The point system is a really good idea! I recently moved out and I am meeting a new group of player whose meta is not my fun. It's complicated.

“It’s not gonna matter professor, you aren’t going to win with a Nerf gun no matter how big the darts are.” Oh ho ho.... *pulls out NERF Centurion mega blaster and lays down Nerf War* I beg to disagree!

I started EDH in a tight group that encouraged creativity mainly by discouraging good stuffs i.e. tutor bans. That group fell apart due to expanding the group and including people of a different mind set. Since then I have played in the wild mainly at lgs. I tried promoting old school EDH (pre-mirrodin) but realized people want to play with new shiny toys. Having an optimized mana base is fine and usually makes games less clunky in early turns, having good stuffs is fine and kinda necessary in order to compete in average mettas. What I try to encourage as an elder dragon is a flavor race. I personally still ban tutors, I don't play op generals and try not to cast my general regardless, but my biggest flavor push is to not build optimally. If you can predict the outcome before playing based on the generals and then that outcome becomes true, well you just played a boring game. To not be predictable is easily attained by removing the usual wincons, if something is overplayed (hoof), if it elicits groans (lattice), if it's too easy (combo), if it becomes sollitare (extra turns), just remove it. I find the longer people have played the more likely they are to agree with these principles. Newer players have less of a base to compare this too because they haven't seen hoof end games. They don't want to pull cards because they don't have a wide collection to sub them with. And they don't get that combo is easy because they havn't seen it enough to have an opinion formed by it.The RC has done a poor job conveying what casual is as well. Hardly any of the people I play with know who Sheldon is or what rule 0 is. To make it worse wotc is catering to spikes whom are now flooding casual tables. Be the change you desire to see in EDH. My hope is that other people start a flavor race too.