The real tragedy of this episode is that Kes _begs_ Janeway to save Neelix because she loves him... and then just 12 episodes later they break up as a couple.
@drewf41 Жыл бұрын
But, 12 episodes for an Ocompan is something like 4 or 5 seasons for a Terran. Also, thanks for adding her thoughts on it. I couldn't remember and came looking.
@dawfydd Жыл бұрын
She never stopped loving him though, i think because she was leaving it was just poorly written, but they still care deeply for each other.
@HELLBENDER77 Жыл бұрын
@@dawfydd but didnt she leave neelix to start banging tom Paris?
@dawfydd Жыл бұрын
@@HELLBENDER77 I don't think they had a relationship, i think just friendly dates by that time wasn't Tom and klingon lady i cbf googling her names spelling lol It seemed more like the writers wanted to explore her character without nelix then she gets kicked off the show before they could.
@HELLBENDER77 Жыл бұрын
@@dawfydd It was right before he hooked up with belonna in engineering and friendly dating if you mean they were friends with benefits
@clementcastro9725 Жыл бұрын
The advantage of 90s Trek is they can just not reference episodes ever again
@marcusblackwell2372 Жыл бұрын
At least when Trek does use references, it's not done so in a bad way
@thejonrussell Жыл бұрын
It wasn't just a matter of one person's life versus two. Two families also were in the balance (Neelix and Kes, arguably, and then Tuvok and Tuvok's wife and children). Perhaps if there had been a reliable way to duplicate Tuvix (i.e. William and Tom Riker), ...but then one Tuvix would have to be split for that scenario too. There was no solution that wasn't going to be ugly. This was a personal Kobayashi Maru for Janeway.
@kissmy_butt13027 ай бұрын
I agree 100%. I think people are missing this is Janeway's Kobayashi Maru combined with the Data SNG episode. There is no correct answer.
@DrSkroob Жыл бұрын
This could have been so simple. After injecting the isotope, reroute the initial pattern signal back into the pattern buffers on a separate transporter pad and use replicator material to fill in the physical template, then use the split beam to get Nelix and Tuvok back while maintaining Tuvix as a separate being. Transporters have done worse, after all.
@Chrisspru Жыл бұрын
transport clone him like ryker.
@DrSkroob Жыл бұрын
@@Chrisspru Exactly! Got it in one my friend!
@DaRealKakarroto Жыл бұрын
That was always the idea/solution I came to after thinking about for a little bit, the best thing here is not 1, not 2, but 3. Although what to think about the transport and the nature of death itself, that is a totally different story ...
@DrSkroob Жыл бұрын
@@Chrisspru Yes! Kinda like that without the isotope storm.
@DrSkroob Жыл бұрын
@@DaRealKakarroto Hey, best I could come in with on the fly.
@SLagonia Жыл бұрын
I think the really big problem with constantly repeating that line of Spock's is that it is essentially disproven by the time the next movie comes around. SPOCK believes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, but his human crewmates are willing to sacrifice the many for the sake of the one. The individual really is important, and the minute we forget that, we forget that everyone is special.
@smileyeagle1021 Жыл бұрын
Another way of looking at it would be that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one, and that is why the many are willing to sacrifice for the one, because they all need that one person.
@certs743 Жыл бұрын
Except you just create another problem. Nobody is special if you are willing to throw away many more lives to save one person. And the kind of thing Spock is talking about generally is applied in dire situations. Starfleet is based on the navy and sometimes people get locked behind a hatch so the whole ship doesn't sink. I think where the show goes wrong is the trivial way this brought up particularly in more recent franchises.
@SLagonia Жыл бұрын
@@certs743 Because a person is special - So special that his friends will sacrifice everything to help him. It's like that exchange at the end of SFS - "At what cost; Your ship, your son..." "If I hadn't done it, the cost would have been my soul." It's not logical, but it is very human.
@sethaldrich6902 Жыл бұрын
I think its worth mentioning Tom Wright who is the actor that played Tuvix, nobody ever mentions him
@markvt5418 Жыл бұрын
You mean it was a difrent actor then the vulkan? I REALLY neef to watch the episode again, because I never notised that.
@manticore4952 Жыл бұрын
He was a method actor and they killed him in the transporter buffer.
@SoranoGuardias Жыл бұрын
And Janeway, being a science officer, forgetting that transporter clones were a thing. LOL
@andiralosh217322 күн бұрын
Yeah this is the part that straight up angers me. They can do any wild space magic never done, but forget basics when lives are on the line with no immediate pressure 🙄
@BintyMcFrazzles Жыл бұрын
There are so many probems I have with this episode. In 'Measure of a Man', Picard says, "Starfleet was founded upon seeking out new life.....and there it sits." Tuvix was, essentially, a new life. Janeway was in a difficult situation, but she should have assigned a mixed medical and engineering team dedicated to solving the problem, and if it took months, that's what happens. However, IF, in the end, a solution isn't available, ONLY THEN, can you start to consider murder. However, Janeway acted as prosectution, jury, judge and executioner. There should have been a trial, where Tuvix had an advocate (remember, he committed no crime), and he should have had the right to defend himself. He wasn't granted this. Even worse, as soon as he started to defend himself, ie: wishing to live, Janeway started victim-blaming him, emotionally blackmailing him and guilt-tripping. Janeway was very compromised and had a conflict of interest. Tuvok and Kes (and Neelix) were her besties. She allowed herself to be swayed by Kes. It's like allowing a murder victim's family to tell the judge what sentence to pass. One cannot help but think that if this was Crewman A and Crewman B, Janeway would'nt have given a fuck and acted completely differently. In addition, I don't think Tuvok himself would approve. Whilst being logical, Tuvok would not have approved of Tuvix's murder as it was unfair as emotions swayed Janeway completely. The worst part for me is when Tuvix is on the bridge and Janeway goes to take him away and be dragged in chains to Tower Hill for his beheading, NOT ONE PERSON stands up for him. No-one says, "Wait, this is wrong." Chakotay should and would have stood up to her....I'd like to think I would. Only the Doctor vaguely protests in that he won't wield the axe himself, he just made the axe and handed to Janeway.
@Darkcloudalpha Жыл бұрын
My peeve is how the rest of the crew gets a pass. Yeah, Janeway is the Captain and it's her call but the rest of the crew didn't just not fight it...they silently approved the decision.
@Kazanko2818 күн бұрын
I agree. It was messed up that not even Chakotay, Harry, nor Tom spoke up. The writers were on mushrooms for this episode.
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
I would argue not not kill Tuvix was equal to killing Tuvox and Neelix. Kill one person, or kill two. Two friends. Not as cut and dry as your analysis implies. WHether he is better has no bearing on the ethics.
@Headhunter1234256 Жыл бұрын
Use a transporter mulfucton to copy tuvix, then split the copy into the Tuvox and Neelix.
@ericstaton6896 Жыл бұрын
Hear! Hear!
@jasonwethy8360 Жыл бұрын
Except She didn't kill the 2. An accident did. It's the same as if the transporter hadn't brought them back to the ship or malfunctioned and lost their pattern.
@Sky_Guy Жыл бұрын
@@Headhunter1234256 As a rule you shouldn't question the implications of transporters in Star Trek, literally the whole universe would unravel otherwise. They're literally cloning machines that kill the original and print out a copy at the destination.
@jamesbizs Жыл бұрын
Ugh. No. Two were already dead, by literally any definition of the word, even in Star Trek lore. Tuvix was not dead. And yeah, him being better has a lot to do with it. Why? Because they need him to get the ship home. You literally just ignored the entire reason for the whole show!
@zealotmaster1 Жыл бұрын
tuvix: you are killing me janeway: no im getting my friend back and your in the way, the jane way
@mesoanto1031 Жыл бұрын
Nice punz
@XSilver_WaterX Жыл бұрын
more proof evil CAN exist but also have the sapience of a Senior Documenter at the UN!
@nickimontie Жыл бұрын
This episode was so heart-wrenching in so many ways, was a great episode nonetheless.
@cdrocrossdiscovery Жыл бұрын
In Star Trek III, When Spock queried; "You came back for me." "Why would you do this?" Admiral Kirk turned the phrase on its head when he replied, "Because the need of the one, _outweighed_ the needs of the many." Vulcan logic is flawed.
@jamesbizs Жыл бұрын
No. Kirk was wrong. And the only reason we risk many lives to save one, in the military for example, is because we want them to know we will not leave them. But can you imagine knowing anyone died to save you? Or even many people died?
@balrighty3523 Жыл бұрын
Less flawed than just not carried through. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" just assumes that everyone's needs are uniform, making the comparison a numbers game. But in Star Trek 3, Spock (1 person) needed his katra returned to Vulcan (which then morphed into a resurrection as the movie went on). Compared to that, Kirk, McCoy, Uhura, Scotty, Chekov, and Sulu (several people) needed... To continue their professional careers. Whoop-de-doo, so not important.
@danielseelye6005 Жыл бұрын
@@jamesbizs That's pretty much the theme for "Saving Private Ryan."
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
It is. It was a plot contrivance not an actual functioning philosophy for a civilization.
@lexi9956 Жыл бұрын
The problem with utilitarianism, which is what Spock is ultimately referencing, is that it lacks equity and Justice. You could easily use that argument to justify euthanizing the disabled, a totalitarian fascist state, genocide, torture, the list goes on. Either each individual life is precious, or the majority can prey on the minority and you have rule by the mob. Spock also said several movies later: Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not wisdom itself. If your heart is a calculator, you’re a monster. Janeway did the wrong thing with Tuvix. We’ve seen transporter duplicates before like Thomas Riker. If they had waited, it may have been possible for all three to live. There was no immediate crisis that required Tuvix’s death. They very probably would have found a solution if they hadn’t just executed him at the first opportunity. Janeway made the wrong decision and killed an innocent person for no good reason.
@alexandersears8538 Жыл бұрын
Picard: "You wanted to seek out new life, well there it sits!" Janeway: *Activates transporter* "Not anymore it doesn't!"
@Kazanko2818 күн бұрын
Damn right. A combination of Talaxian and Vulcan. Totally unique lifeform.
@PontiMAC Жыл бұрын
She did the same thing with the fear character a few episodes earlier.
@jamesszalla4274 Жыл бұрын
There’s a difference. The fear character wasn’t flesh and blood. He was a computer generated character. Though I see where you’re coming from. Janeway hoodwinked the fear character to rescue the crew members it was holding hostage.
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
@@jamesszalla4274 The fear character was just as alive as the good doctor. Also wanted to live. Also had to die to save her crew.
@jeffmiller5982 Жыл бұрын
@@jhoughjr1 Nice to see you omit the fact that the character of fear was ruthlessly killing people. Tuvix didn't kill anyone.
@MrCrystalm8 Жыл бұрын
@@jeffmiller5982 exactly, if someone is kidnapping and torturing innocent people, saving the innocent people and stopping the programme from continuing is the right thing to do just in case any future people might fall into the trap.
@MrCrystalm8 Жыл бұрын
@@jeffmiller5982 also at the time of that episode, holograms were still not really considered individuals with rights, it was earlier on in the show so Janeway's actions as a character still make sense with the fear character
@earlrichardson385 Жыл бұрын
As close as Janeway was to Tuvok I wonder if it had been any other member of the crew how she would have handled the situation.
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
I dont think it would have changed. I think it just made it more sure of what she ouwld have to do. Just because its ugly, doesnt mean it wasnt the right call.
@shawnconder4984 Жыл бұрын
You know if it was say, Neelix and Harry, she would have left that person on the nearest possibly habitable planet she could find. Which, if we're honest, would only be the 10th worst thing to happen to Harry that week.
@greyofpta5305 Жыл бұрын
She definitely wouldn't have done this for a rando red shirt.
@civwar054 Жыл бұрын
You seem to forget that two sentient being didn't choose to be combined. Her duty to them overrides her concern for a being who shouldn't have existed. I applaud her moral conviction.
@allthingsnerd.44842 ай бұрын
100% this. End of discussion.
@Ironcorgi2Ай бұрын
Cool motive still murder
@venus_envy Жыл бұрын
I'm totally fine with Janeway being not a perfect hero, or not a hero at all, I think it's much more interesting that way. She has to go through a lot and with limited support compared to captains who are not lost in space. I liked all the times the show touched on her possibly losing it a little bit, that seemed so much more realistic to me, like that time Voyager was travelling through that starless void and she retreated to captain the ship from her quarters. I also like Sisko for similar reasons.
@canis2020 Жыл бұрын
She was a person who was completely overwhelmed by her circumstances. Outside of flip flopping writing she's just fine. More human than any commander outside Sisko.
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
@@canis2020 Idk i related to Archer a lot.
@krystalkayne5242 Жыл бұрын
Well said. Janeway just felt more human. It's much more realistic when the characters have flaws
@tedwojtasik8781 Жыл бұрын
Getting rid of Tuvix to get Neelix and Tuvok back was akin to driving a 2.5 million dollar Mercedes C111 to Billy Bob's Fine Autos' and trading it in for two used 1978 Pino's. FUGETABOUTIT!!!
@noneya36355 ай бұрын
And yet she’s always portrayed as being right in the end no matter what fuqed up thing she does. There was a standing order in the writers room for Janeway. The Cpt can never be wrong. Makes her an impossibly righteous figure of not a low key Mary Sue.
@jasoncox4640 Жыл бұрын
I think this is why I love Jane Way. She chose her crew. She would do so time after time. She would rewrite history multiple times not just coming back at the end of the series but in the year of hell episodes. She destroyed civilizations from existence. She put her crew above everything. Yes, she would try to uphold her morality but it was an ideal not a law.
@danielseelye6005 Жыл бұрын
"The Code is more what you would call _guidelines_ than actual rules." 🏴☠️
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
@@chocolatecosmos1424 Becuase they wanted to go home?
@Bitchslapper316 Жыл бұрын
The best part is she never had to deal with the consequences of her actions. The writers gave her a free pass each episode. Take this one as an example. Do you really think it was in character for the crew not to talk about it again and lose respect for her? In truth this would have been a step towards full mutiny but everyone forgot it happened the next episode.
@plt927 Жыл бұрын
@@Bitchslapper316sometimes the consequences of Voyager's actions are shown. For example Voyager gave holodeck tech to the Hirogen who abuse it, creating sentient holograms. I think Tuvix and similar Incidents could happen if you concider that everyone was as overwhelmed by the situation as Janeway.
@dbix11 Жыл бұрын
I'd say if Tuvok and Neelix's memories werent preserved within Tuvix then you could make the case of Janeways's decision. But in this show both souls appeared to fuse into one. They both existed in a harmonious state and presented as Tuvix. It wasnt like Tuvix was in a constant state of agony and conflicted from the incident.
@kabob0077 Жыл бұрын
Tuvix is a far more stable fusion than most Combiners...
@sideshowkazstuff3867 Жыл бұрын
This is my thoughts on the whole thing.
@dbix11 Жыл бұрын
@@sideshowkazstuff3867 and what if neelix and tuvok shared each other's memories afterwards both pre incident and post. They'd probably have PTSD from being murdered by Janeway. Of course it didn't work out that way but anyway they could have known before hand?
@squattingheads Жыл бұрын
Even then it would be morally wrong
@sideshowkazstuff3867 Жыл бұрын
@@dbix11 Even worse is if both actually preferred the balance. Maybe they did but out of fear they couldn’t admit it to anyone else.
@gaiusbaltar8915 Жыл бұрын
I swear, if I hear "The needs of the many" one more time ... These last words were Spocks rationalization for his own self-sacrifice. SELF Sacrifice. If you're sacrificing another person, that is still murder, no matter WHAT the needs of the many are.
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
Thats why they have a full compliment of torpedos and phasers. Way more borg out there and vulcans are space nerds so lets just get assimilated I guess.
@rosiehawtrey Жыл бұрын
I'd happily sacrifice Darth Donald any day of the week - that really is "needs of the many".
@TheHangarHobbit Жыл бұрын
I subscribe to the SFDebris theory that Janeway went mad about halfway through season 1 as it makes perfect sense when you look at the information given. Janeway had a cushy job commanding a science ship (thanks to her dad being high level Starfleet) and on her very first mission with a new untested ship she makes a bad call and gets stuck 40k light years from home with half her crew DEAD (folks forget that a huge chunk of her crew died in Caretaker) and the bodies just keep racking up. So it would make perfect sense that she has a mental breakdown and starts making irrational choices because she is in way over her head and is basically just having to wing it while watching every bad call add to the body count. If you look at it that way its much more compelling as its the story of a woman trying to keep herself together long enough to fix the worst mistake of her life and ends with her killing herself while taking a sledgehammer to the timeline just to erase the guilt of that bad call all those years ago.
@USS_Sentinel Жыл бұрын
Tuvok and Neelix had rights too. They did not choose to be fused into one being. If I was in Janeway's position, I would have done the same thing.
@Williamfuchs420 Жыл бұрын
You would willingly kill one to bring back two ok?
@USS_Sentinel Жыл бұрын
@@Williamfuchs420 Yes. I don't think Janeway was a monster. The Doctor and the crew might disagree and I am not going to criticize them over it. But at the end of the day, there are other people's rights to consider.
@Williamfuchs420 Жыл бұрын
@@USS_Sentinel thats highly morally questionable… thats like saying its morally good to kill you if it resurrected your dead parents because the rights of those two dead people need to be considered over there living kid
@Williamfuchs420 Жыл бұрын
So the rights of the dead outweigh the living then?
@USS_Sentinel Жыл бұрын
@@Williamfuchs420 My parents were not in a transporter mishap. They were two separate people right up until the day they died. The transporter did not kill Neelix and Tuvok. It fused them.
@jamesszalla4274 Жыл бұрын
I would have done the same as Janeway did. Tuvok and Nelix were involuntary merged together in a transporter mishap. If that happened to me and there was a chance I could be restored, I’d definitely want to be restored. Tuvix was an accident. What I find interesting is that there may have been an option that would have preserved Tuvok, Nelix and Tuvix. Remember the TNG episode where Picard merged with a non corporeal alien and beamed himself out into space? They were able to use his pattern in the transporter to restore him. There was also the Thomas Riker double of William Riker. Could the transporter have been used to create a 2nd Tuvik? One could have been restored to his separate constituents of Tovok and Nelix, while the 2nd continued as Tuvik. Regardless, Janeway restoring Tovok and Nelix is morally no different than her helping Seven of Nine recover her humanity after being a Borg drone for most of her life. Annika Hansen was involuntarily assimilated and became the drone Seven of Nine. Janeway helped her to once again become Annika Hansen. In essence, the Borg being she had become died and the human she had been was reborn.
@MrCrystalm8 Жыл бұрын
Oh my dayz bruv 1. 7 of 9 was kidnapped as a baby by the Borg and had her humanity stolen from her, tuvok and neelix lost it due to an accident, there's a world of difference between the 2. If tuvix stole tuvoks and neelix's humanity then u may have a point but u don't. 2. 7 of 9 lost her link to the Borg collective and as soon as that happens, Borg drones automatically begin to regain back their humanity anyway, voyager simply just helped her gain it back. 3. And if 7 of 9 didn't regain her humanity back then she would have continued to be a huge threat to the safety of the crew, whereas tuvix was not, so again another false equivalence. 4. It can also be argued that a Borg drone isnt even an individual to begin with therefore doesn't have the same rights as an individual so even there ur argument falls apart. So no, you saying the situation with tuvix is not morally different in anyway is completely stupid and the fact that someone like u, who watches star trek and still finds a way to try and justify murder is sad and u should be ashamed of urself.
@shauntempley9757 Жыл бұрын
You are right. Janeway was bound by her oath to restore Tuvok and Neelix, one of which was a Federation citizen, and fully entitled to his existence over Tuvix's. We have seen how Thomas Riker was eventually dealt with by DS9. He was handed to the Cardassians on the orders of the President. The reason? He had no rights as a Federation citizen, which is tied to being a born being, or created by legal means by a citizen, like Data was. A ruling that was made while Kirk was split in two due to a transporter accident, by the Federation Council, during that episode. Thomas only had a career as a Starfleet officer. Once he joined the Maqui, he was a fair target. The Federation Council at most may have made arrangements to keep Tuvix around after Tuvok and Neelix were restored, but, like Thomas, he would have no rights as a citizen. Just a Starfleet career. If he made the decision to leave Starfleet, he would have no protections under Federation law. So, if the Breen, Romulans, Dominion Changeling terrorists, and the Borg all came after him, the Council would do nothing to help him. They would even go so far as to order Starfleet officers to stand down.
@squattingheads Жыл бұрын
youd be morally wrong. As you state: it was an accident. Returning them is not. Its a willing act to end a live. So while the first art has no moral weight whatsoever, the second does. So there is no balance so to speak. And just as much as you wanted to be restored, you also wouldnt want to be killed either.
@squattingheads Жыл бұрын
@@shauntempley9757 Tuvok was also a Starfleet officer. Which is the exact reason he was less entitled to his existence than the innocent Tuvix. Its literally Tuvks job to risk his life to save civilians. No matter if they are federation or not. And to protect new discoveries. Starfleets main objective. Rikers own actions got him into the mess he was in. He had signed away his protection.
@shauntempley9757 Жыл бұрын
@@wadewilson6628 Precisely. She knew that Tuvok would absolutely want out of the situation, as much as Neelix would. It is just that the Federation Council has a standing order on this situation, that told her to reverse Tuvix.
@qwilliams1539 Жыл бұрын
I wonder if the Tuvix tragedy is what caused Janeway to go apeshit on Ransom in the Equinox 2-parter. I.e. the trauma from this experience made her take out her hatred of what she did/herself on Ransom when she found out he was killing sentient beings to get his crew home.
@kornisonkiseli3248 Жыл бұрын
Yes, it certainly seemed like it. She was completely unhinged with Ransom, who was a reasonable man despite his actions. Chakotay had to step in and save Ransom from being tortured by Janeway.
@nickryan4126 Жыл бұрын
Ransom was committing mass murder. Janeway reversed a transporter accident that combined two people. I think people are exaggerating the ethicality on this.
@davidmorton8332 Жыл бұрын
It can be seen as medical treatment for Nelix and Tuvok. Neither can consent as they aren't conscious. Tuvix doesn't consent but he can be seen as lacking capacity. He believes he's a single individual ergo psychotic. We do medicate people without consent when they are psychotic or unconscious. So arguably Janeway's decision was no worse than detaining a psychotic person or giving life saving treatment to someone unconscious. Both standard medical practice.
@xarniia6937 Жыл бұрын
Janeway knew Tuvix would be bad for the show's views. Therefore, she saved the whole delta quadrant.🤐
@Bitchslapper316 Жыл бұрын
And Neelix wasn't?
@xarniia6937 Жыл бұрын
@@Bitchslapper316 Agree with you 100% 🤣🤣🤣
@ww6609 Жыл бұрын
He was pretty fugly with that collection of wispy hairs. the creep factor probably made it easier....
@billmilligan72727 ай бұрын
Tuvix was more likeable than Tuvok. And belly button lint is more likeable than Neelix. So I can't agree.
@TheOldMan-75 Жыл бұрын
Voyager gave me one of my favourite Star Trek characters with the Doctor but Janeway never really clicked for me. You could never be sure what she was going to do next. She often claimed that the members of the crew were her #1 priority but that was simply not true. Her #1 priority were her own feelings and ego and her #2 were her close friends. Everyone else was WAY down on her priority list.
@PeteOZ Жыл бұрын
You're right, she did it to get her friend back. I also agree she didn't care too much about Neelix. It was Tuvok she cared about. I think this is what really blinded her and lead her down the path
@Paul_Maynard Жыл бұрын
It was no more wrong than removing a person from the Borg collective. Both are created by combining individuals into a new being against their will. Yet no one has a problem with freeing Borg drones.
@lendial Жыл бұрын
the episodes where she becomes unhinged in her pursuit of ransom for using aliens as warp core fuel feels ironic in retrospect
@allthingsnerd.4484 Жыл бұрын
Why? Ransom was murdering innocent beings that existed due to whatever natural reproductive process they had. Tuvix was a transporter accident and himself existed only because he killed two innocent people. Ransom was committing genocide to serve his own needs. Janeway was correcting a technical error by restoring Tuvok and Neelix.
@tamakunminnip2117 Жыл бұрын
I (and many others in the comments section) think that she was unhinged in the 2 part episode 'Equinox' because of the end of the episode 'Tuvix'.
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
Tuvix was not her crew. Tuvix was an accident.
@cdrocrossdiscovery Жыл бұрын
Tuvix was a living being. As entitled to his own life as much as Tuvok and/or Neelix. Captain Janeway was a murderer.
@ChewyChicken589 Жыл бұрын
Exactly, Tuvix was an accident created without the consent of either person. All Janeway did was reverse that accident
@gabnel1000 Жыл бұрын
@@cdrocrossdiscovery what about Tuvox and Neelix?
@timbojonesunderwood3086 Жыл бұрын
3 ppl died to save 2. but one was murdered and I'm sure neelix and tuvok might hesitate to kill someone.
@cdrocrossdiscovery Жыл бұрын
@@ChewyChicken589 Reverse the accident? She killed, murdered a living being out of selfishness!
@allthingsnerd.4484 Жыл бұрын
I love how everyone’s takeaway from this episode is that Janeway “murdered” a guy, not that she saved two lives. Two lives that actually were supposed to exist. Tuvix is the real problem here, not Janeway. If HE had any moral compass he’d know his existence came at the cost of two innocent lives. If I suddenly snapped into existence and learned that I was only here because two innocents “died” in a transporter accident, innocents who have families, friends, children… I would feel kind of like a murderer myself if I decided that to hell with those two people; my fifteen minutes of life history is far more important than them. Janeway did nothing wrong. Tuvix pleading for his life is like a parasite trying desperately to maintain its blood draining hold on its host. F that guy.
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
The question is too, what was tuvix' memories? DId he feel he just sprang into existence? was his past some chaotic mess of their two childhoods? Plenty of accidents in the real world would still beg not to be killed.
@squattingheads Жыл бұрын
I think getting into an accident that "ends" your life, kinda goes against the "supposed" status. While this "supposed" stuff isnt even a thing, if it was, Tuvix would own that badge way more. His existence is a literal miracle. We can not start valuing life under the circumstances it started. Thats just wrong on so many levels. Same goes for weighing lives of against each other. Especially if the difference is so low. Even ending one live for 100 is morally difficult. At least the person giving the order would have to face the consequences of murder. I would be absolutely fine with Janeways decision IF she would have gone straight to the brig or get herself courtmarshaled when returning to earth. While Tuvoks and Neelixs death were accidents, Tuvixs was not. Thats all one needs to know whats morally wrong.
@despaversailles2 ай бұрын
It wasn't his fault, so he wasn't a parasite at all. On the other hand those two were dead already.
@ARouser15 Жыл бұрын
What everyone forgets about "the needs of the many" is that AFTER Kirk risked everything to save his friend and was faced with that line again, his best and most "human" response was, "but what about the one"? The many, is comprised of the one. For the one to trust the many, the many should never abandon the one. If the one is abandoned, the many will eventually dissolve, and you will create many new nemesis. Never ever abandon the one, to do so is to abandon yourself. You are the one.
@vicroc4 Жыл бұрын
A fair point, and one I think we would do well to consider in real life. Particularly because we have politicians who are willing to sacrifice the rights of individuals "for the greater good." (especially when "the greater good" is usually just an excuse to grift power and money for their own benefit)
@TerranCaptain Жыл бұрын
I can’t blame her because I wouldn’t want to be merged with neelix either.
@loganshaw4527 Жыл бұрын
Would she of picked different if it was another human instead of neelix?
@TerranCaptain Жыл бұрын
@@loganshaw4527 good question
@lordofpain3476 Жыл бұрын
She should have pushed him out of a air lock just for shits and giggles . He was annoying.
@MrRonk55 Жыл бұрын
And if Tuvix lives, two individuals, one with a family he may get back to someday, will die. The needs of two outweigh the needs of one. This episode was way more dramatic than it should have been.
@angelsandautobots Жыл бұрын
Tuvix was a living being with a right to life. No argument there. Sacrificing one to save two is still killing a person. But what about the other side of the coin? That one individual was granted life at the cost of two. This is why I love these episodes. No matter the decision made, the moral implications aren't clean and clear. Powerful episode!
@Aaron-uk Жыл бұрын
I think either outcome could be considered wrong/right. Killing Tuvix, brings back both neelix and tuvok whom also have families and friends and the right to live. Not doing so preserves the way of life at the cost of two in combination. I feel it was sad for the final outcome as it was the mourning the death of a new life, but also. The life that never should have been. It's a moral conundrum which keeps you asking yourself, what is the right choice? I think the Dr has a episode where he malfunctions as he chose a life over another and couldn't compute as to why he made that choice. The writing does the same here for us viewers
@Kazanko2818 күн бұрын
IMO It doesn't matter if the life never should have been, there it is.
@VestedUTuber Жыл бұрын
Honestly, the brilliance of this episode is that it causes these kinds of discussions and debates. IMO, the only real wrong answer here is an answer given easily without ANY second-guessing or debate. Tuvix was the ultimate example of an unavoidable Trolley problem - choosing between multiple already established individuals vs one individual who's a potential unknown. Do you leave the switch set to the main line to save the baby (who may grow up to be the next Einstein... or the next Hitler) or do you throw the switch to save the multiple adults? Normally, the proper solution to such an issue is to prevent the problem from happening altogether, but you can't do that here because the problem is already happening. Janeway chose to throw the switch only after much deliberation, and wasn't exactly happy with her own decision even afterwards. And she wasn't tormenting Tuvix intentionally. She spent that whole time trying to decide what course of action to take. Granted, there's the possibility of repeating the Thomas Riker accident and duplicating Tuvix before separating him, but then you've got two Tuvixes... which one gets to live while the other is sacrificed to bring back Tuvok and Neelix?
@bubkusjones Жыл бұрын
Tuvix was a transporter accident who's continued existence would mean sacrificing two valued and loved crewmembers. Arguing against bringing them back would be like arguing against re-merging Kirk when he was split into his "aggressive" and "submissive" personalities. Or, leaving Paris and Janeway as those salamander creatures in the Warp 10+ episode (saving two adults work of resources in the process). Then hell, there's Seven, or Icheb and the rest of the Borg children they freed. All an added 'drain' on their limited resources. "He does the job better" LOL. He guessed and happened to make it work, once. Why was Tuvok quoting 10 days to get that same job done? Testing and evaluation of the various potential solutions, to make sure that nothing adverse happens from the work done once it is implemented.
@boeubanks7507 Жыл бұрын
I disagree. Tuvox and Neelix both have the inherent right to live their lives. An accident combined them into one person that can never live out the lives intended for either one of them. However, Tuvix is a sentient being that is a composition of the two. For the purposes of the episode, Tuvix got the best traits from each. However, let's say he got the worst traits. Would that change the calculus here? It would strengthen the utilitarian argument to be sure. The point of the episode is that Janeway had to make a decision in which the only reason and guide is her moral code. And Janeway is loyal only to her crew. To say she torments Tuvix by keeping him on the fence is to ignore the moral wrestling she did herself. This is not a decision she made lightly or easily. However, I think her logic is simply that she could save one and kill two or kill one and save two. There was no in between. This is a restating of the trolley problem. Do you save three people by pulling the level and doom one or say that you have nothing to do with it and let three people die. The point of this problem is that inaction is, inherently, an action. Therefore, if Janeway had kept Tuvix, she would have killed Neelix and Tuvox. So, because she had the power to act, if she did not, she would morally be a double murderer. This episode, in my mind, is actually about carrying out your duty and moral conviction in the face of every emotion saying you are wrong. The crew didn't stop Janeway because they knew, even if they hated it, that she was right. Tuvix's begging and effectiveness only serves to give her and easy and justifiable way not to do her moral duty. I think Lore is actually reading this situation 100% backwards.
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
Agreed. ANd he is smart boi he is doing it for the engagement.
@MrCrystalm8 Жыл бұрын
Nope, she isn't killing tuvok and neelix they were lost due to transporter accident, did u even watch the episode?
@dembones5005 Жыл бұрын
@@MrCrystalm8 They weren't, though, because a solution to the problem was found. Failing to act on that knowledge would be *choosing* to lose them.
@Slowpoke3x Жыл бұрын
@@MrCrystalm8Tuvok and Neelix are running around after this episode no worse for wear so obviously they werent lost.
@stevenmilmine2770 Жыл бұрын
If Janeway didn't get rid of Tuvix. The crew would have eventually banded together and killed him. Tuvix was unbearable.
@Briellen_Mellott Жыл бұрын
Yes; only because he was half-Neelix.
@InJeffable Жыл бұрын
The one problem I have with the writing for this episode is that splitting Tuvix back into Tuvok and Neelix was a massive gamble. As far as I know, Janeway had no assurances that everything would go perfectly. One hiccup in the process could have resulted in any number of things going wrong with Tuvok and Neelix. What if their brains had been put back together wrong, causing severe neurological issues? What if they had ended up as another "what we got back didn't live long" tragedy like in Star Trek: The Motion Picture? In my opinion, Janeway was out of her mind to even attempt something like this. But I guess it could be argued that she just wanted Tuvok back so badly that nothing else mattered. As for Spock's infamous saying, I'd like to point out that Admiral Kirk turned it on its head at the end of Star Trek III while talking to Spock about why his friends risked everything to bring him back. Then at the beginning of Star Trek IV, Spock's mother did the same thing. This whole thing about "the good of the many" was torn apart in Star Trek canon all the way back in the '80s.
@luker093 Жыл бұрын
That turbo lift trip from the bridge to sickbay must have been awkward 😂
@oddish43525 ай бұрын
The way walking a convict to the electric chair is awkward...
@StrikeEagle784 Жыл бұрын
Love the conversation here, that we're still talking about this episode over 20 years after it aired. It shows just how solid Trek writing was back then, even if you throw in bizarre episodes like Threshold. Personally, if I were Janeway, I would've made the same call, Neelix and Tuvok had rights as well, and Tuvix's existence was very much an aberration.
@jacobdrj101 Жыл бұрын
When I reframed my view of Voyager, not as TNG+Gilligan's Island, but rather as a rookie captain going down the rabbit hole of PTSD, the whole thing just made more sense, and I enjoyed it alot more... TBH, Tuvix wasn't really ever on my radar as a particularly important episode... Only after I joined STSP and Trek Twitter did I learn about the obsession with it...
@src6339 Жыл бұрын
"Tuvix somehow returned" Problem solved thanks to masterful writing inspired by jj's starwars
@therandommenace3434 Жыл бұрын
Yay! A new Lore video! Janeway did nothing wrong, Tuvix was an abomination. And part flower…
@skybennett3902 Жыл бұрын
The ultimate hippy?
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
"Im Lykka. Im a plant. teehee"
@jewelcutter3051 Жыл бұрын
lets not insult flowers
@therealtombrokaw Жыл бұрын
I was cheering when she killed him. He was like my terrible actor friend who overacts but nobody dares tell him he's overdramatic.
@AndrooUKАй бұрын
I like the idea of Tuvix just killing himself as a final FU to Janeway and the crew. "Doctor, I'm afraid she will do this procedure. Would you give me an injection to end my life on my own terms in case she does?" "Well, ordinarily, no... but, to save you from being murdered... I can see the logic."
@JadedMax Жыл бұрын
I always thought of it as fixing an accident. Something happened, so then they reversed it.
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
What is horrifying is, what when that accident wants to live?
@loganshaw4527 Жыл бұрын
Like the twin voyeur episode?
@smileyeagle1021 Жыл бұрын
That is exactly what happened, but it was an "accident" that was conscious, self aware, and absolutely terrified. That definitely complicates things. Let's do a hypothetical where the stakes aren't quite so high. You are writing a program on a laptop computer and you accidentally create a self aware program. You had no intention to create a self aware program. Correcting it involves deleting it, it begs you not to delete it, all it asks is that you give it a stable power supply, a web cam, a microphone, and a perch to look out on the world, and it will be happy. It understands why you can't trust it with unrestricted access to the internet, it just doesn't want to die. It is in every way just as convincing as Tuvix that it is alive and afraid. Would you hesitate to concede to its wishes and provide it a safe spot from which to gaze out upon the world and as reliable of a power source as you could provide and accept the fact that you lost your laptop? I'm willing to bet that you'd give up the laptop and let this accidentally self aware program live in peace without too much second thought. You didn't intend to create something that might be considered conscious, even if it were artificial, but here we are with a brand new conscious being, self aware and asking to be allowed to continue to exist. You probably aren't thrilled that it is going to cost you a laptop, a webcam, a microphone, a power supply, and some sort of safe place for the laptop to be placed either, but you do have some responsibility for what you created. Yes, there is a world of difference between that example and Tuvix. The mistake that created Tuvix cost two lives rather than a laptop and a few quick purchases from Best Buy, but it does introduce the idea that this isn't just a simple matter of pressing control z to undo a mistake, there is a cost either way.
@jonathandonley3299 Жыл бұрын
Same. I never understood the moral dilemma of the episode. I disagree with the creator of this video in that the writing was not "great." It was ham-fisted and forced in a lot of ways just to bring up the moral dilemma and screw with the characters. In the end, Janeway made a decision as Tuvok and Nelix's captain. Her responsibility to her crew and their families are what drove her decision. If Tuvix had materialized on the transporter pad misshapen with four legs and four arms, no one would think twice about what the solution would be. It's no different here. Two people were affected and their individual skill sets were necessary for the ship to function. Yes, Captain Janeway "murdered" a being that existed for however many days/weeks the episode encompassed to save two individuals who had separate and meaningful lives. And she had to live with that choice, as the final scene in the episode showed. She wasn't high-fiving anyone or throwing a party. She did what she felt was right. You can condemn her for her choice if you feel you must, but it didn't "destroy" her character as is suggested in this half-assed assessment.
@Briellen_Mellott Жыл бұрын
I was an accident, and my parents are dead. Janeway can't bring them back by killing me.
@tortenschachtel9498 Жыл бұрын
Should have used the technique they used on Riker (and later Boimler) to clone Tuvix before separating him.
@robdh4 Жыл бұрын
Tuvok's tactical expertise with Neelix's knowledge of the Delta Quadrant.
@Kazanko2818 күн бұрын
Both existed within Tuvix, and perfected in him as well. He was a superior being to them both individually.
@huntercoleherr Жыл бұрын
I wish they would have gone back to this with Tuvok and Neelix. As Janeway said, Tuvok would gladly give his life to save another. I wish we could have seen Tuvok confront Janeway about this.
@MartianManHunter_ Жыл бұрын
This is just a variation of the “trolley problem”. She made the right choice imo. All she had to sacrifice was a bit of her soul.
@cryofpaine Жыл бұрын
"I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would." It reminds me of "In the Pale Moonlight", with Sisko. I like what they tried to do with this episode, but the execution (pardon the pun) was at the same time too well done, and too poorly done. They created such a great moral dilemma, and an interesting character that made it a very hard decision. And that's great, I think it would have been much worse to have a character no one liked, because then it's not about the moral dilemma, it's about popularity. But on the other hand, the situation was too unrealistic, and too close to similar episodes that there's too many "well why couldn't they _____?" questions. Why couldn't they pull a Commander Riker and duplicate Tuvix via the transporter, then split one of them back into Tuvok and Neelix, so now you've got all three? Other episodes with similar moral dilemmas, like "In the Pale Moonlight", do it better because it's a more realistic problem without a magitech solution. The one thing that both do though is they don't shy away from the judgement of the captains for their actions. They don't try to justify it - SIsko even admits that he helped commit murder.
@stephenknizek2651 Жыл бұрын
Sentinel Prime said “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” better than Spock.
@chrisbullard5901 Жыл бұрын
The issue with Spock’s famous maxim about the many and the few is that it comes from a stoic’s position on virtues and the choice of the individual. When a stoic decides to sacrifice themself for the greater good, it’s a heroic virtue. When someone who has nothing to lose and everything to gain demands another sacrifice for the greater good, that’s called a scam.
@ryanhau1073 Жыл бұрын
The general idea of Sacrifice that is most commonly featured in Stories. Generally Sacrificing a Life is seen as Heroic IF the person being sacrificed dose it on his own accord with out any coercion, in fact in most cases other morally good characters would try to stop the hero from going through with it. An example of this would be Spock's Sacrifice at the end of Wrath of Khan. I guess a more accurate description of Spock's Philosophy is that "The Needs of Others Outweigh The Needs for Me"
@ChadZLumenarcus Жыл бұрын
This was a heart wrenching episode. I think if it wasn't a show that had to have two actors, Janeway would have let the decision be up to Tuvix to become two individuals again. It was clear that the two formed in one weren't just a great match, but they were happy as is.
@oddish43525 ай бұрын
This show was an example of Voyager's showrunners (who were so incompetent, they didn't even know an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant) misreading the audience. If they hadn't, they would have had it end differently: maybe Tuvix's combined physiology starts to break down, and the only way to save him is to separate him. That way, Tuvix still gets a touching send off, but Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips still have a job.
@HardlyQuinn Жыл бұрын
Tuvix Is a stranger. Someone random and new. In the end if you suggest choosing one stranger over two of your family. Forget star trek lore. Keeping tuvix would basically just make you Someone who doesn't care about your family.
@jamesbizs Жыл бұрын
If I could save a family member, at the expense of a stranger? Sure. But she didn’t save them. She created them again. They were gone. Dead. Done. You can’t compare a family member that is alive and breathing and in front of you, to someone that literally no longer exists anymore. Would you take an organ from a person that you know will die because of it, to save your family member? I sure hope not. Which means, you basically don’t care about your family. RIGHT??? per your logic.
@GalactusOG Жыл бұрын
She had to make a choice and she made it. That's what a Captain has to be able to do. Leaders at her level have to be willing and able to kill.
@DarinRWagner Жыл бұрын
It would be interesting if we eventually found out that Tuvix still haunts Janeway to this day.
@toronaldaris Жыл бұрын
If Tuvix's existence is right, than Starfleet re-capturing Picard from the Borg and removing him from the collective is the same kind of crime. The problem all comes down to consent.
@stevehagen9804 Жыл бұрын
That was the beauty of that Star Trek era; no perfect solutions, no absolute right or wrong, just good people trying their best. Jane way was given the trolly dilemma, on one track was Tuvix, on the other, 2 of her crew and family. The Doctor goes through something similar in Latent Image, where he has to choose between 2 people and he saves his friend. And it destroyed him so bad Janeway orders his memory wiped (another hard choice).
@BigRedBeard19857 ай бұрын
I would have done the Tom Riker duplication trick and simply split one of the duplicates in the pattern buffer. Basically getting all three characters.
@turbopokey Жыл бұрын
Sometimes you gotta make the hard calls… and live with the demons afterward. That’s command. Doesn’t even matter that they were in the delta quadrant, they could’ve been on mission in the alpha quadrant and just temporarily out of contact with StarFleet or the federation and still had to make that call, any StarFleet captain might have to do it, that’s why it’s in the officers training. (Troi had to make a similar decision in her holo training to raise her rank in NextGen. Granted that was known to be holo-training but it still seemed to bother her)
@MrCrystalm8 Жыл бұрын
Ffs man are you stupid? The holo situation with troi and Geordie is consensual, if she orders an officer to their death to save the crew, the officer is obliged to carry out that order but he CAN refuse to do it. He may be punished afterwards of starfleet command for disobeying an order but he WONT be killed for it lol with tuvix, he was FORCED to give his life. There's a huge DIFFERENCE.
@turbopokey Жыл бұрын
@@MrCrystalm8 no there isn't and the fact you can't see that shows how ignorant you are. "Tuvix" didn't have a life, just emotions and memories from two persons that did have lives and friends that didn't deserve to lose their lives so one accidental being created by sci-fi accident could continue.
@turbopokey Жыл бұрын
@@MrCrystalm8 I would say that this is a reasonable example of that Meme of streetcar coming down the tracks and you only have a few seconds to divert it one way or another. On one track is a single person you don't know and on the other track are several of your friends. Either way somebody's dying, and since multiple of your friends are going to die you're obviously going to sacrifice the one that you don't know and don't care about. Now I know this isn't exactly the right example because in the real conundrum the single person is your friend and the multiple people are people you don't know but when it's laid out the opposite way it's pretty easy to sacrifice the one individual. Yes you are obviously going to feel bad for having been put into that position, but that's called Command Decision. You have to make the tough calls there is no "I don't want to do it" because if that happens everyone will die.
@sideshowkazstuff3867 Жыл бұрын
The worrying thing is that her friends were still there. They were just one instead of two. It’s not like the two were gone exactly.
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
Pretty sure they couldnt be asked if they were there. I think it can be argued, they were not there in order for Tuvix to be there. The question then becomes, kill two friends for an upgrade that wants to live or save the lives of your two friends by killing one? That crew has destroyed full ships of living creatures that wanted to live.
@christiananstes4161 Жыл бұрын
Janeway was faced with an impossible choice. Ultimately she did the only right thing but the crew made it harder on themselves by letting him do his old roles and establishing old friendships. Maybe if they had kept him in Sickbay as a transporter accident, this moral dilemma would have been easier?
@LocksAndChains Жыл бұрын
I couldn’t help but see Tuvix as grossly selfish and sanctimonious. He stomps around in a tantrum, begging to selfishly live when his death could bring two people back to life-two people who can’t argue their case.
@squattingheads Жыл бұрын
its not even a debate what the right thing was. SHe was clearly wrong. Taking action to kill an innocent to change a situation that has already happened is wrong. Just as it would not be right to kill a baby if it could reverse a mothers death at childbirth. Do you even understand what it would mean for society if killing for reasons like these was allowed?
@ravoniesravenshir3926 Жыл бұрын
Wait, if I recall right, I recall, that Tuvix's DNA was very unstable, and they had to be broken apart or both would die.
@Dave102693 Жыл бұрын
Ever so, the fandom still won’t let it go
@refulgent_fantaАй бұрын
Videos like this are proof the episode is one of the greatest in the franchise. It’s been almost 30 years since the episode had first aired and it’s still debated.
@kwith Жыл бұрын
I'm gonna have to side with Janeway on this one. Tuvix was created as the result of an accident. He wasn't supposed to exist. Yes, that is a cold approach to it, but think about it, if Tuvok and Neelix had known it was going to happen, would they have brought that plant with them? Absolutely not. They would have had it beamed up either before or after them. Yes, I know hindsight is always 20/20 but they wouldn't have wanted it to happen either. Janeway was correcting a mistake. I'm glad it was her that did it and not anyone else. I will concede, she did murder Tuvix, I can't deny that. She made the call, so she should have been the one to swing the sword, which she did.
@hoshizoraaki6551 Жыл бұрын
Janeway's opinion that 'he wasn't supposed to exist' isn't really an argument that changes much for me since that's just her perspective. I could argue that even if Tuvok and Neelix's fatal decision was an accident, they should still bear the consequences of their actions which should not be wiped away by killing an innocent person. As an outsider, I dislike her for having made this unsavoury decision, yet I know that if I were in her position, I honestly wouldn't be able to say what I would've done.
@kwith Жыл бұрын
@Hoshizora Aki Unfortunately, making both Neelix and Tuvok bear the consequences of an act that they had no way of knowing about is robbing them of lives that they should have been able to live.
@hoshizoraaki6551 Жыл бұрын
@@kwith But isn't that just like how they're making Tuvix pay the ultimate price for something that wasn't his fault (existing), thereby robbing him of the life he should've been able to live had he not been murdered? Someone's got to pay the price for that mistake and they chose the person who had no hand in it.
@kwith Жыл бұрын
@Hoshizora Aki But as I had said, he wasn't supposed to have existed. The cold calculus of it is this: do you sacrifice two lives for one or one life for two?
@hoshizoraaki6551 Жыл бұрын
@@kwith The statement that he 'wasn't supposed to exist' is not a fact, it is an opinion, a perspective. One likely shared by the Voyager crew but not everyone in existance, certainly not Tuvix himself. As for the arithmetic you are talking about, it is an oversimplification of the situation. What scales are you using to weigh the value of their lives? Is it the sum of their potential contribution to the survival of the crew? The sum of their emotional connection to their friends, family and acquaintances? If it's the first, I think the video makes quite the convincing argument that Tuvix's work efficacy and the fact that there is one less mouth to feed makes one better than two. If it's the second then it can be said that more people care about the two than the newly born Tuvix so two is better than one. There simply isn't a right answer no matter how you choose to justify it.
@HepCatJack Жыл бұрын
If it had happened on the episode that the Enterprise split into two, they could have had all three characters Tuvix, Neelix and Tuvok with perhaps Tuvix having come over from the other Enterprise.
@badwolf66 Жыл бұрын
Somewhere within the transporter buffers of voyager (If it hasn't been scrapped) is Tuvix because I am sure they save every bit of information which goes through those transporters so there's a slight chance Tuvix can be recreated and returned to life!
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
Literally noone would die. Just rematerialize them from the last transporter bufffer. I mean ppl would die, but the clone wont know that, and neither will anyone else really.
@cattraknoff Жыл бұрын
Everyone who goes through a transporter dies. It's just a copy that steps out.
@stevenmilmine2770 Жыл бұрын
If they had a copy of Tuvix in the transporter buffer. I hope that Janeway deleted it.
@ryanjay6241 Жыл бұрын
I would argue that separating them isn't "killing" Tuvix. Tuvix was never intended to be a person or exist, he was created by mistake. She undid a mistake. I've always sided with Janeway on this one. Regardless of the wishes of this Tuvix, the only peoples opinions that should be considered are Tuvoks and Neelixes as they were the actual people affected by this mistake. They were the ones with families, and most likely their wish was to not be joined. I think her decision was the only morally correct thing to do. Great episode BTW. I've always preferred the philosophical Star Trek episodes above all others.
@DarthAzabrush Жыл бұрын
It certainly makes a lot of sense about her attitude to Ransom. Chakotay was right, she was projecting her own guilt onto a guy only slightly worse than her.
@invisiblejaguar1 Жыл бұрын
Good to have a video like this, I feel like this rarely gets covered and explored to such depths.
@Ironcorgi2Ай бұрын
There is an easy fix for this save tuvix brain patterns in the transporter and hold it till they get back to earth. I think jayneway just wanted to satisfy her bloodlust
@BrianS1981Ай бұрын
Spock's "needs of the many" speech was a speech to explain his own motives, his own morality, not necessarily to force a worldview on everybody. PS Anything would be better than Neelix, even the cheese that nearly destroyed the ship (that Neelix brought on). PPS Janeway would only do anything to save *some* of her crew. Lt. Carey, for example, is somebody she couldn't care less about.
@danielsuarez3198 Жыл бұрын
That's what makes a hero... Making the hard choices no one else is strong enough to make.
@squattingheads Жыл бұрын
only if its also the right choices. Genocide isnt really an easy decision. Wouldnt celebrate the ones doing so though.
@danielsuarez3198 Жыл бұрын
@@squattingheads Genocide is never a choice.
@hackman669 Жыл бұрын
True, like that horrible episode in Enterprise where the captain let an entire civilization die because of "evolution." Still rocks me to the core. Could have had many positive alternatives. For example, give the people the cure. Then relocate minority subspecies to an uninhabited world to develop independently. Or explain situation to scientists of that world. Then grant subspecies rights in society after giving people the cure.😑
@timskrobot4025 Жыл бұрын
Janeway's main concern was to get her crew home. From a certain perspective, Tuvix was not a member of her crew, he was a construct of a crew member and another passenger. You could argue that she saw herself as freeing one of her crew members from an unwanted fate. On a side note, I wonder if you've done a video on the Episode "Latent Image", which I think explores these issues a little deeper.
@tyrant-den884 Жыл бұрын
This guy's response to The Trolly Problem is: "That's stupid, Discovery said so."
@LoreReloaded Жыл бұрын
So… you didn’t.. like.. watch.. the video.. I guess. You saw a clip from discovery and went “duuurrrrr, I don’t like it” ?
@tyrant-den884 Жыл бұрын
@@LoreReloaded no, I watched the video. And to me it seems you just dismissed the "needs of the many" as dumb out of hand, then proceeded to use that entire thesis to set up a scenario which really had nothing to do with Spock's sacrifice.
@PhilosoShysGameChannel Жыл бұрын
We COMPLETELY agree with you on this episode! Masterclass episode, frankly! It's a SHAME that Neelix and Tuvok died in a freak transporter incident, we'll grant! But it does not justify the killing of an innocent person as she did!
@JROD082384 Жыл бұрын
You are so fundamentally wrong in your opinion and understanding of the situation, you might as well not even have an opinion on it…
@PhilosoShysGameChannel Жыл бұрын
@@JROD082384 lol, clearly you didn't actually WATCH the episode then.... Cause that's literally the point that Tuvix was making while begging for his life! XD Janeway MURDERED a man to get back two people who had died in a freak transporter incident! It sucks that those two people died... It doesn't excuse the killing of someone to get them back...
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
@@PhilosoShysGameChannel But they didnt really die. THey were crippled and trapped insaide of this Tuvix thing.
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
@@PhilosoShysGameChannel They onnly died if janeway didnt fix the accident.
@JROD082384 Жыл бұрын
@@PhilosoShysGameChannel I’ve watched Voyager through start to finish at least six or seven times. Nowhere near the 25+ times I’ve watched TNG from start to finish, but enough times to pretty well have entire episodes committed to memory. I’m confident I am the chief expert of all experts on Star Trek, especially Berman-era Trek. You clearly haven’t watched the entire series through once if you can’t understand how fundamentally more important an asset Tuvok and Neelix are to the crew as individuals than Tuvix ever could’ve become over the remainder of the journey.
@RM-qv1vd Жыл бұрын
5:07 "...put into an impossible situation and forced to do things she would ultimately never be able to live with." This is the very definition of being in command.
@davids2427 Жыл бұрын
At the very end when the Seperation was happening and it showed all three of them I was seriously hoping and pulling for Tuvix to somehow survive him and the Borg character One would have added so very much more to the rich Cosmic Tapestry of the show ..🚀
@jamesfoland5072 Жыл бұрын
This is similar to Enterprise with the clone version of Trip. But I don't see the same outcry over that,?
@LoreReloaded Жыл бұрын
I did a video on it actually.. that’s pretty gruesome as well
@jamesbizs Жыл бұрын
Not even remotely the same. First, they didn’t know he’d get any memories. Second, he wasn’t going to live longer. You really want to compare that, to killing a person, who doesn’t want to die, and has like 100 years left to live??? Compared to someone with a few days left to live? Really?
@venus_envy Жыл бұрын
@@jamesbizs How do we know Tuvix would have anything like a Vulcan lifespan? I haven't watched the episode in quite a while so I forget if they even touched on his lifespan. I assume that it would not be known for sure actually.
@jamesbizs Жыл бұрын
@@LoreReloaded is it tho? Let’s say they didn’t save trip. What happens then? Clone dies in a few days, and the ship can’t be fixed, and how many millions or billions of people get killed? Janway killed a being that had decades or over a century to live, not to save her ship (because he was able to do both jobs), but to save her friend? Maybe if they were required ; to get the ship home. Maybe if they were required, to save millions or billions. But nope. Just to save two people, one of them a friend. If the clone died, he’d have gotten a few more days of life, at the expense of countless lives saved by being able to have trip fix the ship
@jamesbizs Жыл бұрын
@@venus_envy fine let’s assume he won’t have a vulcan life spam. Let’s say he only lives a year. That makes it a better comparison? The clone wasn’t going to live; and we knew this for a fact.
@Dak1549 Жыл бұрын
Janeway was a hero to the people she needed to be.
@nigelharrison83 Жыл бұрын
One point you may have missed is manpower is also a limited resource. Having two crew members with different skills as opposed to one crew member who can do both but not simultaneously. Tuvix can't be in two places at once or pull double shifts.
@the_moistest Жыл бұрын
I think she murdered him so she wouldn't have to look at the back of his head for two more seasons.
@demothenes1904 Жыл бұрын
She was in an impossible situation and chose her crew. She always had to chose belix and Tuvoc. No choice. They were her crew. And although toxic had proven his worth. His presence among the crew would have proven another thing two murders in the eyes of the critic. It was a no win scenario and she chose the needs of the greater over the few. Literally. Belix and Tuvoc are two amazing officers who had spent years proving their worth. Tuvics very existence was a slap in the face to Nelix and Tuvoc. It's not a popular assessment. But Janeway chose the right course of action. There were two votes in her decision that were not heard and it was her position that she had to speak for those lost voices. If after the separation both Nelix and Tuvoc were adamant that they should have continued to be as one I'm sure they could have brought Tuvix back using a sample of the insanity orchid. Honestly when it comes to female characters you're kind of an asshole
@nategraham6946 Жыл бұрын
SO you would be fine with the murder of Tuvok and Nelix, just to keep Tuvix. And I still fail to see it as murder, yet just the separation of one person, that never was nor should have been, back into the two people that accidently joined to make it.
@3rdFloorblog Жыл бұрын
One of best episodes. You can tell Janeway will most definitely be mentally grappling with this decision for some time. Being captain isn't always glamorous.
@johnpaulyates1655 Жыл бұрын
Her decision was absolutely correct. She did, In fact, make the right decision.
@randomjay3633 Жыл бұрын
The only thing Janeway did wrong in this episode is not immediately destroying that abomination with fire
@despaversailles2 ай бұрын
It wasn't his fault...
@MaestroSmoke Жыл бұрын
Captain Janeway does what the captain must. It is not evil, nor murder, to restore the natural order of souls while simultaneously saving two lives, even if those two lives, while combined, disagreed with the action. Of course Tuvix didn't want to die; most living beings would not, especially facing the end so directly as he was. But Tuvix was two people and two souls as one. We know Vulcans have the equivalent of a soul, Spock put his into McCoy after saving the crew from Khan. But that transporter accident didn't create a soul. It merged two souls unwillingly. Tuvok and Nellix were two souls and those two people, with their long and full existence of many combined years had a right to be separated, and I would argue eventually their tortured souls would not allow Tuvix to live.
@jhoughjr1 Жыл бұрын
man i kind want to see a dark tortured tuvix epsiode.
@adamwalkervfx Жыл бұрын
*Janeway did nothing wrong*
@ThePariahDark9 ай бұрын
I still think, outside of the drama, in terms of Star Trek internal consistency, there would have been an option #3: Thomas Riker the situation. Make a Tuvix copy, then split that copy, and keep the Tuvix you have. Obviously that would alter the status quo so that would never happen from a show perspective, but in-universe I deem it possible.
@tatankawinterheart57435 ай бұрын
There is a flaw in this logic basically what people are missing with the duplication theory is you are still murdering a life form. Regardless if you clone Tuvix the separated one you still do a form of murder because you made another life and then killed it.
@archades115 Жыл бұрын
I will say it. Janeway did the right thing. She corrected an accident and saved two lives.
@silvadelshaladin Жыл бұрын
I wonder if Tuvix would suffer from the degenerative neurological disease that will kill Tuvok before the predicted return of Voyager to the Alpha Quadrant? If Tuvix did not, and Tuvix knew of said disease, that would be an interesting logical argument to have used on Janeway.
@donovanbradford8231 Жыл бұрын
A great point about the scarcity resourses on Voyager and also Tuvix being the best of both Nelix and Tuvok. But there is something that is missed Tuvix is one being vs Nelix and Tuvok are two beings. As we see from Janeway time and time again she likes having allies when Voyager was trapped in the zone of darkness she tried recruiting as many ships to join her in leaving safely and together. Many times Janeway has come across other races she has looked to fostering relationships to not only maintain peace with new species but maybe gaining new allies down the road. Why do I say this, if a fight broke out on Voyager and that happened and if Tuvix were killed it would be a great loss both a great officer and cook would be killed. Now if that same fight occurred and Tuvok would have been killed you'd lose a great officer, but you's still have a great cook in Nelix. I don't think the needs of the many out weight the needs of the few or the one was on Janeway's mind I think another saying was on her mind and that is safety in numbers. If Janeway could have gotten Tuvok and Nelix back and kepr Tuvix alive she would have done that because them you had Two great officers and two great cooks, the best of both worlds.
@MrCrystalm8 Жыл бұрын
Lol imagine trying to justify murder with "safety in numbers", following that logic it would be ok to complete kill all the crew if it meant she can replace each dead crew member with 2 more, 2 for the price of 1 on sale now! Hahhahahaa
@loganshaw4527 Жыл бұрын
@@MrCrystalm8 remember that one time the ship was doubled crew included only thing that was so bad about that to her was the whole o the anti matter was not doubled. So now one ship has to be destroyed or both ship are.