yeah my opinion is complicated for me all 5 of the star trek shows are something you could spend a life time analizing you could spend almost a life time trying to figure star trek in general. and that is something i find that sfdbris is doing and why i watch every star trek review he puts out because i feel like he makes me think his reviews are a perspeticve i did not think about and or i agree with him completely and it just feels nice to know someone sees and feels the same way i do.

Here’s a question to think about (if you haven’t) - why doesn’t Janeway build a cloak? Star fleet must have info on both Klingon and Romulan cloaks. After all, how many times has O’Brian had to fix the cloak on the Defiant? Is it just her stubbornness? I could see Picard or Sisko (or hell, even Chakotay) justifying building one on the idea that survival of the crew is paramount. And, at least in Picard’s case, he’d just report it to Starfleet and the stimulants/Klingons. It’s just an extension of the justification of using the phase cloak in “Pegasus”. How would a cloaked Voyager’s trip been different? I’d like to see your take on this idea.

A very boring 7 years when nothing happens! Considering at the beginning of their journey the Delta Quadrant species they come across are *barely* warp capible. No transporters, no replicators etc. Even United Earth 2151 had transporters! I doubt any of those species would know to use a phased polaron beam to detect cloaked ships. Voyager would have made it at least to Borg space with next to zero contacts. However that assumes that Janeway wouldn't be stopping to visit every new culture or every new astronomical phenomena. We know Voyager only averaged Warp 6 on her return journey and was constantly veering off course to keep the Starfleet ethos alive (and cure boredom). I believe in "Worst Case Scenario" this is the basis of the Maquis mutiny. It is out of frustration that Janeway constantly ignored routes home and constantly went off course to check shit out!

True. But would Janeway build a cloak (assuming they had all the materials and info)? As Lore Reloaded pointed out when he discussed the Prime Directive, Janeway might see the Treaty of Algeron as unbreakable. Never mind that there were no Romulan ships anywhere nearby to protest the treaty violation. As I stated, Picard showed he would use the technology to save his crew (T”The Pegasus”). And Sisko was totally pragmatic about a situation. He pretty much set up the assassination of a Romulan senator because the good outweighed the bad. Janeway, however, was more obsessed with strictly upholding Starfleet regulations. This was demonstrated when she relentlessly hunted the Equinox to the point she was risking her ship and crew. While it was (in my eyes, at least) a good and noble thing to try to stop the Equinox from killing more aliens, was it worth the risks she took? Or should, once there was risks to both the ship and the interpersonal relationships of the crew (specifically her and Chacotay and, to a lesser extent, her and Tuvok) should she have cut her losses and withdrew? Perhaps tried to contact the aliens and given them info to stop Equinox themselves, or convinced the aliens to withdraw, eventually stranding Equinox in a way that might have allowed Voyager to overtake her and allowed Janeway to bide her time until Equinox was weakened enough to make capture/destruction a simple matter. I know, I got off course (but another interesting idea - what should Voyager have done with Equinox?) but my point, assuming you still remember it, stands. With Janeway’s seemingly religious adherence to strict interpretation of Starfleet law (especially early on), would she even allow the construction of a cloak?

Your channel isn't a dictatorship, but Voyager under Space Hitler, I mean Janeway definitely is. Remember what she did to Paris for defying her as opposed to Sudor(I think that's how it's spelled) for committing murder. I didn't see anything about a court-martial. SFDebris did a short video accompanying hid review of Tuvix. It seems to explain a lot.

Agreed. The Borg are a manageable threat. Lore Reloaded is making the Last Jedi Leia mistake by thinking sacrifices can't be justified in a risk analysis scenario.

@@VVeremoose the Borg were well known of by the federation who knows how far Species 8472 would go if they were from a different realm of space than the Borg were that means they could had seen all life in the Delta Quadrant a threat and wouldn’t. Stop attacking all life. It just there but the entire Galaxy.

"your galaxy will be epurated from organic life" sounds a bit worse than the borg keeping on doing what they were doing

It's true that the member of 8472 who communicated with Kes did threaten the entire galaxy. But what does that really signify in terms of how Janeway should have responded to 8472? I mean, Starfleet doesn't start handing game-changing technology over to the Romulans every time some Klingon does a bit of chest thumping.

Very true, very true... However the Klingon's don't posses weapons that can destroy an entire fleet and planets with in seconds. If they did I think the stories around Klingon's, and Romulan's would be very different.

Remember 8472 were crazy, crazy over powerful.

I agree 8472 were powerful but so are the Klingons and federation if they wanted to be. It is stated in the omega directive that a 50 isoton explosion could destroy a small planet federation torpedoes go up to 200 isotons, not to mention the many other planet devastating weapons like thaleron radiation and 23rd century phasers that could crack continents the alpha quadrant powers could be warp in a destroy a planet but they chose not to. even if we ignore that and except 8472 were written as the superman species you forget that voyager had their kryptonite. A single federation starship with no support created a weaponised defence in a matter of days, the federation had more issue with the dominions shield piercing weapons and the breen energy dampener, you telling me that any of the as advanced or more advanced species in the delta quadrant wouldn't have developed a defence as fast? I agree threat was real but it was narrow minded to jump to conclusions like that, what happened to those federation principles she has multiple telepaths who could have tried to communicate, In hindsight the decision was stupid, however at the time while viable it was a rushed decision.

LOL..."shooting first and not asking anything."

#lostbutnotforgotten

Oh Yeah that was awsome . Everyone of the crew felt so badass and intimidating, the change of look just by adding black gloves. Janeways new hairstyle was the best.

That would have been a cool show. Even just a little mini series would have been nice.

Mirror universe Voyager.

*its, Makara. No apostrophe if it's possessive, but yes apostrophe if it's a conjunction of 'it is'. Like what I just did there.

I think this is extremely succinct. It also makes a lot of sense.. I think that's a good way of explaining it as well, yea.

totally agree with this, think it is why DS9 will ever be my fave species, it managed to provide depth on a smaller number of alien races which really paid off the longer the series went on. Voyager always felt like the worst offender to the reset button and monster of the week, perhaps the premise of the show guaranteed that, but it suffers by comparison to both of the other 24th century set Trek shows

this accurately put into words what I think about this issue as well. Its an issue of writing episode by episode content and only having a vague plan of where you are going. Each individual episode needs to holds some sort of stakes or problem to be solved within that specific episode unless they decide to do a longer arc.

That is a problem with the Star Trek series and its multiple writers. It's as if the production team never kept a lore book. For instance one writer would say that warp 10 was infinity yet the next writer would have a star ship go far beyond warp 10 while the computer could calculate this. There is several minutes on KZfaq just showing these mistakes. The story arc then becomes clunky like it did with Voyager.

I guess that's why the Xindi (a species written to fill a whole season of Enterprise) is by far one of the best written alien race in Star Trek.

Oh I completely agree.. Don't get me started on that mess X_x

make a video bout it. Fuck i screamed at my tv when i saw that

I'll address it at some point for sure.. I think Picard was on par with Janeway in mess ups.

In hindsight it is unlikely that plan would have worked. In Voyager we saw the Borg had ways to cut off entire ships if need be to prevent the spread of bad info.

Picard's decision was definitely a mistake, however it was a mistake based on empathy to *not* kill an entire species. Janeway's mistake was to actually commit genocide and she did entirely for selfish reasons.

+LostMercenary99 Its not very Starfleet to consider the situation and try more diplomacy..especially when you don't know who you are talking to..

Considering the danger level in the situation, trying to approach 8472 would be too much of a gamble. Not only did they make their threats as a statement of fact but they opened fire on sight to boot.With that kind of mindset combined with firepower that can wipe out a butt puckering 15 Borg cubes single handedly and then having Voyager ask them for a talk while not shooting them in the process would be a plain suicidal move. You need a bargining position in any diplomatic venture. Voyager had bugger all besides praying. I agree Janeway's deal with Borg screwed many races but at the end of the day, Janeway is a broken mess who wants her crew home and bugger all else. Personally I would have gone with Chakotay's plan. RUN!!!!

It's apart of starfleet to accept the dangers. Sisko would sue for peace, even if it was to get him killed.. Picard and Kirk to. Yea, species 8472 did fire on Voyager.. Let's consider that a moment.. Hmmm.. Species 8472 could absolutely decimate borg cubes.. destroy dozens at a time with one ship - but couldn't destroy voyager? Almost as if..they were warning shot. You know a smart starfleet captain might have noticed that..

Accepting dangers is one thing. Accepting obvious suicide is another. Like I said earlier if you want to sue for peace, sure go right ahead, but make sure you can fight back if it doesn't work. Without the latter, the former is a pointless excercise that is likely to get you killed. Take the Klingons for example. Talk only pisses them off. But kick the crap out of them enough times and then you earn enough respect for pece talks. Also what you call a warning shot, I call pure luck (or plot armor because, y'know, Voyager). 8472 do not do warning shots. They don't do warnings period. They seek to purge all that is not them. The minute the pilot saw the away team it sliced Harry across the stomach and tired to kill the others before the beam out came. Kes herself describes feeling nothing but a pure cold malevolence and hatred from them. No diplomacy is going to happen there and Janeway recognised that. I give Janeway a lot of crap but in this instance she instantly saw the threat and knew there would be no talking with such a force.

@@LoreReloaded Still. That Species was EXTREMLY Hostile, so assuming they are Hostile is... you know... just the Truth. You're ignoring such Facts. It was far too much of a Gamble. Heck, can we even call that a Gamble? Isnt it almost certain that 8472 would have fired? Isnt it certain Voyager would then lose?

Not exactly, the Voyager didn't have any anti-species 8472 technology before the alliance with the Borg, so if the Borg assimilate them they just assimilate a ship, which will have no impact on the war. If they assimilated the Voyager, they would have been doomed.

I was thinking of a Picard like assimilation, one in which they keep the crew able to have a mind of their own.

Olivier Poulin why should they do that? It is in the Borg style to assimilate an entire ship and leave them with some kind of individuality. Besides they will still be Borg, so they can't research because they assimilate, they don't innovate on their own. Locutus could talk and negotiate but it was still a drone.

Voyager had the principles of an anti 8472 weapon thax to the doctor ad=nd a few borg corpses... The alliance with the borg only got the weapons built quicker (with just one drone, 7/9 ! So Voyager crew could have built the weapon themeselves but it would have taken more time. And still one ship that could be oneshot by the enemy isn't a reliable defense for the entire galaxy. By allying the Borg, Janeway also assured to have some meatshield between her and the 8472: the Borg themselves... Better having Borg cubers destroyed than us. I think that her initial plan was not getting into fluidic space, remember it was 7/9 ordered by the Collective that got Voyager into Fluidic space in the first place. Janeway plan was to remain on her course home while designing the weapon, in sort, having some meatshield between her and the 8472, as well as some logistics to help her get home quicker. Better keep the Borg busy, thinking that the 8472 would eventually adapt and take over the Borg later on. By the time Voyager reached Federation space, Janeway could either made contact with the 8472 pr told the Federation about the threat. Unfortunately, the Borg were more desperate than she thought and accelerated things up.

I agree with everything you said especially "I think you're vastly overestimating their disinterest" the proof of that comes when we learn about Seven of Nines assimilation. a small ship was enough to peak there interest had the borg sensors detected a federation ship that far from federation space I'd be willing to bet they'd investigate further to determine how it came to be so far from home.

Janeway routinely ignored advice from everyone ESPECIALLY her first officer. :(

andrucles Captains prerogative? lol

Lets not Forget:The BORG was the one that shoot first.They invaded the Galaxy/Dimenson of 8472.8472 had to a certain Degree the Right to be pissed.The destruction of anything and anyone else beside the Borg of Course is over the top.

Not a bad, if not morbid, idea..

A step further, idle around borg space in the mean time and go the long way. Monitor the war then act when 8472 moves on.

All good except 8472 knew about the nano weapon though Kes. If Voyager left them alone long enough they may have developed a defense. Or more likely hunt Voyager down and destroy it. I don't think Voyager could run anywhere to escape 8472.

But the latter seasons seem to contradict it. As Voyager encountered this earth replica this "Commander Archer" stated, theat they are training for an observation mission, not for a war. I think Janeway misinterpreted the Species intentions. As the Borg attacked their habitat, they were seen as a hostile invader that had to be repelled. The Borg have invaded the Species 8472 habitat several times, always trying to assimalte 8472. I think up to that point they had no intention of invading our galaxy. They just wanted to repel the Borg. But as the Borg keep coming back, they decided that this threat must end permantly, starting an invasion into our galaxy. As they are the only sentient species within their habitat, they assumed that the Borg are their counterparts from another dimension, not knowing about the vast amount of other species in our galaxy. As they destroyed the 15 Cubes Voyager encountered early, they had literally no interest, maybe not even the knowledge, about other species. Then Voyager encountered the first bioship, attempting to remove the weapon or steal the ship. Given the more symbiotic nature of ship and pilot, this was misinterpretated as an attack. Thinking of Voyager as another hostile element to be eradicated, maybe even Borg, the pilot decides to fire upon the ship. Voyager got a full hit, without taking too much damage. In fact we see that one or two blasts from a bioship are enough to dismantle a cube. A ship bigger and more advanced than Voyager will ever be. Janeway, scared to hell not being able to get her crew home, allies with the Borg. The Borg on the other hand see an unexpected advantage. Humans have repelled two Borg invasions, just by being ressourceful. The Borg don't have a deeper understanding of 8472, cause they don't do research, they just assimliate and everything is fine. Voyager on the other hand has done some research, found a possible solution to the Borgs problem. While they were working on the Cube, 8742 attacked again and again. Dismantling several ships, destroying planets in a metter of seconds, even attacking the Cube Voyager is following. They dismantle the Cube, but the Voyager was able to escape. I think even up to that point 8472 doesn't see Voyager as a threat. But then 7 of 9 opened a sigularity to the 8472 habitat. Now Voyager is an invader, retrofitted with Borg technoloy and immediately starting to attack the intercepting ships. In order to make sure this threat is eradicated they sent out a fleet persuing Voyager and are ultimately defeated. Now aware of the threat they decide to infiltrate the Federation, preparing an invasion, to prevent humanity invading them. Much to their surprise they encounter the Voyager again, only to recognize that the Federation is not threat to them. Janeway informs them, that they were just travellesr and that the Federation doesn't even know about 8472, ultimately leading 8472 to cease hostilities. In my optinion Janeway made all things worse. She ultimately failed to use that opportunity. At least she could have tried to establish communications with 8472, maybe finding an ally against the Borg, who is also capable of entering our reality at any point they intend to.

i agree that is was a bad decision, but I don't think the buck as it were stops at Janeway's feet she made a decision with the info she had, a narrow minded and somewhat rushed decision. however none of the senior staff gave viable alternatives chakotay only suggested running. That crew had multiple telepaths on board and anyone of them or all of them could have tried to communicate with 8472, they could have developed that Nano tech themselves and used it to barter a deal with 8472 they get an escort and they wont tell the borg about the weapon the borg die and they leave everyone wins, hell there is a chance that 8472 could have got voyager home since they use those portals to just appear in different parts of our galaxy

+Richard Alexander We don't know that to be true. No

Lore Reloaded Janeway asked Kess to reach out again to talk with 8472 but after trying, she tells Janeway that they have cut off all communication. Since 8472 was once again firing upon anyone and everyone in their reach, what else would you have tried differently? Holding your hands up and saying, "time out"? Did you even pay attention to the sequence of events in these episodes? You might want to go back and watch them again.

Can you tell me if kes talked to the leader of 8472 or not?

We know. From history and in-universe experience. You are just semi-ignorant of the show, history and full of prejudice. Would fit in Jar-Jar Abrams treks perfectly ;)

+Jeff Hallam I intend to do a 'Captains Lore' series

Lore Reloaded good because Kirk murdered aliens and enemies and broke the Prime Directive and Temporal Prime Directive more than anyone.

Lore Reloaded he was a “war time” captain he had little choice.

+Jeff Hallam war wasn't occurung when he released biological agents on the maquis

And VOY was actually closet reinstallment to TOS.

.. If you read the comments..absolutely noone forgets that ;P Regardless of why the writers did write them that way..the fact is..they did. Which means that Species 8472 could be reasoned with. We don't know whom kes talked to.. Was it the leader? A soldier? The delegetimized klansman that noone listens to? They didn't try hard enough.. And because of that - entire civilizations were destroyed..

+Augustine Raymann Species 8472 could be negotiated with and be stopped.

Species 8472 declared their intentions to annihilate all life in the galaxy as they viewed it as a virus, and by kicking the ass of the Borg- the most lethal enemy of the Federation and one of the most powerful factions in the galaxy-, they demonstrated that they might well have the power to pull it off, or at the very least only be stopped after killing a hell of a lot of people. They were basically presented like a cross between the Xenomorphs and the Daleks in those first two episodes. Yes, they COULD have been negotiated with, but all the evidence facing Voyager at the time suggested otherwise, and time was of the essence as the Borg were losing and losing badly.

Better the evil you know we know the Borg 8472 are a complete unknown

8472 had only encountered the Borg (who attacked them first) at the point where they saw Voyager. It's natural to assume that they would be pissed, and when encountering someone with psychic powers, would immediately threaten them and say that they will kill everyone in the galaxy. However, even though Janeway is always preaching about her Federation values, she decided to immediately assist the borg, instead of trying to find out WHY 8472 wants to do this.

RRW I would assume they don't want their people to be assimilated or They were on a noble crusade to destroy what they view as nazis of the universe.

No, it wasn't. As they came to learn, once they bothered to investigate, Species 8472 was actually not very interested in our universe and certainly didn't want to stick around long enough to purge *all* life in it. However, the Borg had invaded their dimension, and when Species 8472 repelled the invasion and counter-attacked, they found themselves in the middle of Borg-controlled space. It was logical for them to therefore assume that the Borg were the ruling power in this strange new dimension. In all likelihood, once Species 8472 figured out that this was not the case, they would have settled for wiping out the Borg and returning home. But Janeway (a Starfleet explorer mind you) ironically decides that the unknown is too scary and thus she should ally with a known power - even though that power is explicitly an enemy. Stupidity.

the borg aren't hell bent on destroying everything tho. the borg at least leave primitive civilizations without technological "uniqueness" alone and are only interested in new technology that increases their "perfection". Species 8472 was literally trying to exterminate every living thing in the Delta quadrant, and had the power to literally destroy planets as easily as swatting a fly. Anyway Janeway made the correct choice, they ended up destroying the borg queen in the finale, and hinted that their was going to be a treaty with 8472 after meeting them in the fake starfleet training camp.

But we see species 8472 being reasonable later on

Yea, as I've said.. I like how the character is portrayed but not written. What about this is specifically hateful? I talk to her actions and how stupid I think they are.. Is there something beyond my disagreement with how she handles things?

Lore Reloaded It's not this specific video in the sense that every time she's brought up, you take shots at her. I do agree with certain criticisms about how she's written at times. Picard is more problematic to me than her. He could've destroyed the Borg with Hue & chose not too. Hands down Sisko is clearly the best of all the captains. He had the high minded morality with genuine human emotions & relationships. But in times where hard decisions had to be made, he was willing to compromise those views for the greater good.

However, some members of Species 8472 gained a new appreciation for the experiences of humanoid species after assuming their forms. For example, "Valerie Archer" expressed fondness for various works of Federation art, literature, and music. (VOY: "In the Flesh")

But at first they were insanely paranoid...

Not to mention, that it means that 8427 killed ALL COMPETITION in Fluidic space in a first place. Otherwise, they would not have concept of 'aliens' or even need for weapons or concept of war other than mating competition.

+sebastian wilkins I think your premise is flawed. We assume they are a bigger threat..we find they can be reasoned with later...had We done more research..or more diplomacy..and she shows the height of hypocrisy during the Equinox debacle :p

Lore Reloaded your own cognitive bias obscure your vision and shows in your video. I can over look dozens of errors you make but having met and spoke to the panels, you have misinterpreted the character. Theirs always consequences, but 8472 only communicated and took notice of voyager once it had use it's nanite weaponry. Before this, as shown they tries to squash voyager like a fly and were unwilling and caused mental changes to kes. Communication wasn't possible at the time due to the lack of subspace communications by 8472 and voyager limited telepathic communication abilities.

+sebastian wilkins One of the reasons I point out my view of Janeway is to ensure any bias that may feed through shows. And you are welcome to point out my flaws anytime. Everyone else does. What people say on panels and what happens on screen are two different things. You can say a character is smart all you want..but if you write them stupid? It is what it is. Voyager makes no further attempt to contact them and we cant be sure they wouldn't be succrsful. Even if we assume they wouldn't be.. Its unlikely 8472 would destroy the galaxy.

Side bar: Not to detract from our discussion - Since you're a regular commentor/viewer - would you mind if I used your comment about Panels/what people say and discuss my thoughts on it? Not specific to this video but my thoughts on 'X' person says this in a panel so it means 'Y' in this episode or movie ? I feel like we're on good enough terms that I can discuss why I find it a flawed idea.. If not, no harm no foul - just thought I'd ask.

Lore Reloaded it is easy to say how you would do things differently with fore knowledge, but being surrounded on all sides by Borg ships and your one hope being essentially a gate way to another dimension filled with bishops, she did what he her mind was the best course of action and she could predict how events would unfold. Without the birds intervention, they wouldn't have secured communications with 8472, kes would still have gone off and transcended and they wouldn't have the nanite weaponry.

Exactly, to not even try diplomacy when you are a Federation captain/representative and diplomacy is your main creed is just retarded, I totally agree with the assessment in this video. When I first came upon Voyager I thought "a strong female captain, that's great" but then I realized this show almost opposes the female empowerment movement by making that lead female an incompetent fool who frequently makes mistakes and gets her crew and other people - including many innocents - killed. Characters making mistakes may make them seem more real/human but the amount of mistakes Janeway makes and the fact she basically arrogantly refuses to learn from the majority of those mistakes make her the worst choice to captain a starship ever, whoever gave her that commission should be fired for their incompetence. I love Kate Mulgrew as an actor and had a huge crush on her during this show but damn her character was written horribly, it was hard for me to believe anyone would give her command of a starship - who'd she fuck to get there? ... lol

Jon Grey I'd have thought even in the direct of circumstances a Feddie captain would instinctively fall back on talking first as second nature.

[Edit: I apologize for how long this is, lol] Well I actually kind of disagree there, I don't have a problem with a more militant Fed captain if that "darker" view is actually woven into the story and the characters themselves in a significant way like it is with ST:Discovery but it just didn't work for me with Voyager because Janeway was very erratic in when, how and IF she followed the rules or upheld the creed the Fed is based on and seemed to do so based purely on her own whims at times while other times she acted like those rules and the Fed creed were religious commandments that MUST be strictly upheld. In Discovery the captain and the whole crew are all aware of and in agreement with the philosophy of bending or breaking the rules to get results and they feel justified in doing so because they reason - whether rightly or wrongly it's still very human - that since their end goal is to END a war killing many people and restore the peace that they are basically indirectly following the Fed creed of seeking peace even while they technically violate it at times. Diplomacy had already failed numerous times before most of Discovery's crew adopted it's ways, Janeway just threw diplomacy away and said "let's kick some ass!". Janeway was just too erratic for me to believe she was ever allowed command of a Fed starship, they should have much higher standards. It was just bad writing of a character that could have been much better in my opinion.

Jon Grey woah that's a lot to read... ookay... very true. Sorry just poking fun, that wasn't so long.

Diplomacy??? Do you not remember their first encounter with 8472? They boarded the cube one of their bioships was attached to to investigate what happened to the cube and if possible, what the bioship was since scans couldn't get much info. The moment one of 8472 got near them it attacked THEM without warning or provocation. They never had the *chance* to use diplomacy in that episode and further still, we had Kes, who saw what would happen to Harry moments before it did and who could hear the intent of 8472 to destroy everyone and everything in our galaxy, not just the Borg. In the end Janeway made the correct decision, this fully unknown enemy who could toss aside the Borg like a ragdoll had to be stopped. The Borg can be fought and defeated, the Federation was getting better at it constantly but without combining Federation ingenuity with raw Borg power, there was little hope anyone could survive 8472's assault.

..things would have gone different..for sure..

You should watch SFdebris reviews on Voyager, he has a parody Janeway that is evil but uses the actions of actual Janeway that I think is excellently done.

I'll give my opinions to ofcourse..

resolute germ I, for one, don't see Captain Janeway as evil. To me, she becomes psychopathic as a result of her decision to destroy the only technology that would get her and her crew home. What bit of restraint she had previous to that incident gets left behind in the Alpha Quadrant.

Tucheh Stone If Janeway is truly a psychopath, that would be legitimate reason to relieve her of command. Only problem is that the Doctor is a computer program that can be altered, say, to ignore Janeway's psychopathic behavior. Remember, she treats an insubordinate crew member worse than a convicted murderer. Its within the realm of possibility that she would prevent anyone, for ANY reason, from relieving her of command.

Well there wasn't enough done. Do we know who Kes was talking to? Was it the LEader? A soldier? The 8472 species version of the Klan that isn't really legitimate in their society? We don't know, they didn't try. They also don't take into account that they were just attacked and bombarded by a species that wanted to destroy them. We know they do talk because in later episodes they come to a peace and have a conversation. And it's the height of hubris to consider that no other species could beat them.

+Luke Edmundson The one she didn't show mercy to and basically got killed ..in equinox?

Just because it's entertaining does not mean she didn't make bad decisions, same goes for you finding TNG to be boring and pointless. All of the captains made some pretty horrific mistakes, doesn't make hers any less egregious.. though you are welcome to your opinion and if you like her - very cool.

And then didn't when Voyager actually talked to them.

I Agree with Mark species 8472 was set on genocide at the time. Talking would not have done anything at that point only action. It was only after being faced with a serious threat of massive retaliation and destruction that they bothered to take time to learn more about their enemies and found themselves in a place where diplomacy could occur and was preferable. Often civilizations who oppose each other don’t engage in diplomacy because it’s easy they talk because the alternative is so terrible that they really have no other realistic choice.

And then later were talked down.. She assumed they couldn't be talked down when they could.

Or that the telepathic message Kes got in that brief moment wasn't accurate. Could very well have just been 8472s way of saying stay out of this, or anything less sinister that's being lost in translation. If telepathy is a mental ability it would also be safe to assume ones own experiences or biases may influence how a telepathic message is received. Much like we do every day with speaking. Isn't uncommon to misunderstand someone's intent, or for us to say the entirely wrong thing at the wrong time. Just my take on why it probably isn't the best command decision to rely on a single persons experience or view. Part of leadership is taking in all possible solutions and determining what should work best in your situation. A skill I don't feel Janeway is very good with. Unless it's some scientific problem she can technobabble her way through. Kind of makes sense for the captain of a science vessel. Overall I can't blame Janeway entirely for her mistakes. Tough situation, and one she probably never gave a moments thought to having to handle until it was happening in front of her. (The entire series not just the Borg/8472) Just the wrong person in the wrong place really. Or Voyager was just not written very well... Take your pick :P

They only talked once Voyager had a gun to their heads.

Saquist exactly, they were all "We're going to kill you all" until Janeway said "We've nanoprobes that will kill YOU" then they were all "ermmmm, buds?" Alex Turials "You should always try to reason until you have no other choice" if someone comes running at you will a knife, screaming that he's going to kill you are you going talk to him or try yo take him down

Klingons didn't have planet killers and were not steamrolling over your largest enemy known to date. Klingons were not outside of the galaxy.

Yea, except in this scenario.. Germany attacked Japan..brought a massive fleet.. failed.. then US threatened one attempt at communication.. Then threatened nuclear weapons.. and then did it .. no attempts at further diplomacy which is very unstarfleet.

Lore Reloaded fair-ish. I would say a better example would be some Koreans show up on the shore of Japan to start shit. They get trounced, because technology is an abomination (if you recall they hate, I mean *hate* non-bio tech... they also see no difference between the Borg on voyager at this point). Then Japanese discover US. They will literally see no difference, because hey... not fluidic enough, and what's with all this infernal abomination metal stuff everywhere? Species 8472 considered itself perfect. With fluidic space being the pinnacle of reality. I don't see any amount of convincing convincing enough till they get their assessment handed to them at least once. You might be able to get me with you found the *one* ISIS loving fluidic space is best space I hate all tech Jhadist. But if I was the grand pooba of Species 8472 I would keep those kinds of people far behind the front lines. Cuz this exact reason. I would have liked to have seen a line of dialogue between episodes like "We have sent diplomatic beacons but they haven't been answered." To which anyone would say "Yeah what do you expect?! They hate tech... dumbest captain ever. Why divert enegry resources to this when you could have just developed the phage sooner?" Honesty I think she was probably the best captain in the franchise. She had a stupid bad hand, and played it to the best of her ability upholding ideals, while doing what she thought was the most important. The return of the crew. That said she does have mistakes. Given the info, time table and threat it was the best call. IMO

Lore Reloaded thanks for the quick reply though. This video got me to "like/Sub" :)

+Sum Arber No problems..I do try to respond..though due to the amount of comments and the.. Mmm.. Passion..some can have..I may come off a bit short or angered when I'm not..so sorry if it came off that way :) Glad you enjoyed.. The channel is a discussion so I welcome dissent..even if it means we never agree

Lore Reloaded dude fandoms man... It's like secular religion.

The channels a discussion, not one guy who knows it all ;) What do you disagree with?

As far as I know, 8472 was completely hostile and at the time(and after) posed a larger threat then the borg (the invade this universe bits and and purge every one if I remember and there lack of responding even after using the nano torpedoes on them in fluidic space) later episodes they even built a station to infiltrate Star fleet and then they manged to do peace with them This 2-3 episode and this video (witch I did not agree with as well) seemed more about the implications after which showed up with the actual advanced ship that had that slipstream drive thing, that actually brought the Borg into fluidic space and started the war (8472 lost and unfortunately they lost there home planet and surrounding areas to borg)

The points raised are valid, but I still feel inclined to interject with the old saying: "Hindsight is 20/20." What little they _did_ see of Species 8472 showed they were terrifyingly powerful, openly hostile to all other species in the galaxy, and they had to make a decision fast. I don't really consider it bad writing if it realistically portrays a flawed person making a flawed decision under pressure. I should point out that Janeway's decision was influenced by Kes's visions, which included several pretty clear signs that 8472 was hostile and unlikely to negotiate with Voyager. Furthermore, she was desperate to get her crew home at any cost. She didn't want to turn around and navigate _around_ Borg space _and_ Species 8472. Does this make her a flawed person? Certainly. Does it make her a bad character? Eh...I wouldn't say so. I believe that was part of the point of the two-part episode, especially considering the subplot where Chakotay argues with her largely from your position for most of the story, and briefly overrules her when she's rendered comatose, only to once again end up overruled when she wakes up. To be fair, however, 8472 _was_ after them, and she _did_ make at least a modest effort to talk them down, it just didn't work. Honestly, I think Star Trek is at its most boring when characters behave like perfect paragons of morality with perfectly sound judgment. Maybe that's just me. I was always a sucker for DS9, myself.

As I understand it, Starfleet isn't opposed to cloaking devices on principle, but rather as a pragmatic part of the of trying to keep peace with the Romulans.

Indeed. Starfleet didn't have cloaking devices because they didn't want a war with the Romulans.. and looked at it as a necessary give. Though we know they developed better cloaks than the Romulans.

The Treaty of Algeron forbid the development of cloaking tech by the Federation; hence the _Pegasus_ incident.

And I read somewhere that all federation ships have the design schematics in their database and it can be unlocked by an admirals order. If war ever got hot with the Romulans, Starfleet command would issue a general order and ships would upgrade themselves in flight. Now seriously, they couldn't hack or fake those commands, or even get them legit once contact was made (the doctor beams to the Prometheus) - the rules only applied in the alpha and beta quadrants, as per the Defiant agreement, which was bent anyway. And Starfleet engineers knew enough about cloaks that they could probably build their own anyway, also B'Elanna was half Klingon, and in the Marque, she never looked at or researched a design ? And didn't the Klingons supply the marque with some cloaks ? Also Voyager defeated a couple of cloaked ships, they could have ripped them off. In the fifth episode of series one (Neelix gets a lung swiped) they capture a couple of Vidians with "sophisticated cloaking technology". Stripping it just to work out what they were up against would be obvious, and since you've now got it? And while doing that, they also could have taken the Vidians medical database and sickbay (which would have saved Tuvix,), stick those two in an escape pod if you're still feeling moralistic and want another species besides the Kazon now hunting you.....(imagine if Sisko, with Garak onboard, had been in command "Sorry captain, I thought it prudent", as Garak stands astride the corpses). And Seven of Nine defiantly knew how to build a cloak (and a lot of other very useful tech from more advanced species the Borg nabbed - she did leave the collective before species 116 got totally assimilated, but the Borg would have grabbed a few quantum slipstream ships while she was still connected). Still the list of useful tech that Voyager could have but didn't acquire if worth a video series in itself (credit please ;). Just off the top of my head, coaxial warp, that 40,x light year transporter the aliens who replaced the crew but played dumb used. The Voth personal cloaking device Tom nicked (And another personal cloak from that species that you can't remember, she was onboard for a month, just get the technical specs on paper for when they release that computer virus), the body of that 29th century drone they accidentally created - besides the doctors emitter it had personal transporters and shields and a lot of goodies (why didn't the Borg go full out to get the doctors emitter after that ?). And of course a shitload of weapons and shield tech.

while I agree there was much they could have "nabbed", I disagree with what you say about 7 and her knowledge, yes she retained much of the Borgs knowledge but IIRC she regularly stated that the tech used by the borg cant be fully intergraded since voyager is too primitive. If this is the case that borg tech is too advanced for use by voyager how are they supposed to comprehend Voth tech arguably the most technologically advanced species shown in star trek their ships dwarf the borgs (voth city ship estimated to be 11km 6.8miles long near triple a cube) and they are on face value more advanced and have many capabilities that surpass the borg.

One can only wonder how you can't see my point of view when you agree with her decisions ;P

I have to disagree with the Chekotay angle ...He always annoyed the crap out of me and seemed more like a brawler than a professional

Royal Hopper Well you’d have to write him better too. He never struck me as a brawler-he decked one of the ex-Maquis in “Learning Curve” and apparently used to box, but generally seemed less eager to resort to force than Janeway. Really he was just very, very dull. A beige character of ever there was one.

I watched that episode a few days ago although I confess I didnt remember the name of the episode until you wrote it.. He was a very standard outcast with a heart of gold misunderstood rebel type and no there wasnt lot of brawling on screen but it was implied in his history as a maqi and some episodes backstory and in his general attitude. I think he was meant as a foil. The pragmatist l to Janeways childlike enthusiasm and idealism ..but your right about that particular point ..It just didnt work

I had to look up the episode title myself. I'm pretty sure it was the last time they showed any friction between the crews without some outside interference coming into play.

Ugh... because actaully Chakotay had Starfleet Academy educaiton but only command experience from Maquis ? He was exactly that ? And by the way, he was BY FAR BEST FIRST OFFICER in all of the series. Offering well founded criticism and support to the captain. Far better than Riker or host of faceless others.

#oorah

William Brinkley Sisko hates the Borg the most. They killed his wife.

There's an idea.

Nope, she is cleary written as a heroic character. Just a badly made one.

Z Zs that's what an anti hero is a heroic character that does morally questionable actions for a greater cause or because they're morally more grey.

Lore Reloaded I mean it makes sense. she doesn't do things for the greater good but what is best for voyager and her crew. is she evil? no just morally questionable.

Lore Reloaded I would consider Sisko anti hero material as well although in a vary different way to Janeway. Maybe a tragic hero perhaps?

you should watch voyager more often. We don't know for a fact if all of species 8472 wanted to and we know they actually are willing to negotiate and have peace in later episodes.. thanks for the comment ;)

They were rampaging throug space making good on their promise - what more more proof do you need ? Remember, this is first time we actually saw _casual_ planet killer on ST.

Lore Reloaded It could be argued, though, that the only reason 8472 were willing to negotiate at that point was because Voyager had taken away their "untouchable" advantage. They went from unstoppable juggernauts to vulnerable and that would have naturally shifted their goals in our dimension.

After that message, they made no attempt to actually parlay or conversate with them. To apologize or make peace.. And we know Species 8472 is up for it because later episodes show 8472 making peace with them.

Lore Reloaded 8472 was up for it when they were hanging around in human suits and after they said they were starting to feel like humans. During the first encounters, Voyager was almost destroyed within moments, giving them no time for negotiations. The telepathic communication appeared to take its toll on Kes too. It was all happening too fast for the standard Starfleet meet and greet approach.

"resistance is futile" is just propaganda & intimidation obviously as 116 the 116th species the Borg have made contact with have held against them up to the time of Borg making contact with 8742 the 8742nd species come across by the Borg. So that is a hell of a lot of time and species later so obviously their resistance was not futile for a very long time. Also there is no way Borg assimilated that many species. So many species the Borg reject for assimilation and many too they couldn't assimilate totally like 116 or at all even.. For 116 to fall straight after 8742 pushed back can only mean Janeway's weapon helped the Borg. I do not believe that only 20, 000 116 remain unassimilated though. If they were fighting Borg for hundreds or thousands of years thy would have sent hundreds of FTL colony ships out into space to escape the impending flood of Borg. Also they wouldn't be fighting Borg on own they would have remnant refugees from many of the 115 species from earlier Borg attacks plus any other alien civilisations adjecant to themselves and the borg. Any civ under attack from an alien race in one direction would be looking for allies all along the line and trying to ascertain the extent of the enemy's area of control. After all if you can find allies in rear and on flanks of your enemy you can take the heat off your one front by opening fronts at enemy's sides and rear. Janeay if a real leader would have contacted all civs in area and organised an alliance.

I think the way she is acted, is spectacular. That's why I like Mulgrew.

I dunno. A lot of things "grow o"n a person that aren't that great. Moles, colon polyps, etc.

Like fungus.

Why choose that? it makes for the possibility of interesting character conflicts. As we see later she becomes troubled about it and is criticised by others. It helps establish the Janeway character and how she's unwilling to cross certain lines to solve a problem. It also shows how Federation philosophy is so much a part of everyday life that the crew will support her and understand the decision. They chose it because it's interesting and that's what stories are all about.

I never thought of it that way, that's an interesting theory

Michael McCormack your galaxy will be purged rings to mind I think there is a high chance they would have carried on

I came to the conclusion that after the war with the Borg they would have went home because of the way they interacted with voyager. The first ship could of chased voyager and destroyed it. but it let them go. You can't say that the beam it firer was at full power. we seen those beam take out a Borg cube and voyager survived a direct hit. The second ship hit the cube holding voyager with only enough power to disable shields. But why attack that ship at all they were going to destroy the star system and cubes with it. or better yet why not destroy the cube that would of taken out voyager to. the only conclusion is they were given voyager a chance to get away. They only said "your galaxy will be purged" after voyager entered their space. In the episode (in the flesh) they said that was a way of defensing them self. as a way to scare voyager away in my opinion. They were only interested in the Borg at the time. then they classed the federation as a bigger threat because it was a fed ship the created bio weapons to be used against them. + while at war with the Borg they didn't try to attack other races you can't say that they didn't have resources to do so 1 bio-ship was all they needed to destroy 15+ cubes and 9 were need to destroy a planet. they had thousands of ships. and other races were weaker then the Borg. Not only that they reentered our galaxy and were more interested in finding out if the federation was planing to invade their space. instead of attacking other races. sure in their minds now the Borg and the fed have a weapon that can be used against them but others didn't.

True that the first ime I saw the 15 cubes destroyed, before the telepathic contact I'd told myself "Oh, someone who can get us rid of the Borg nuisance, cool, let's make friends with them, piece of cake, the Federation is saved". True Janeway made it overly complicated. The was lucky she could convince them later on not to attack the Federation.

If they were just trying to scare Voyager by saying that they are going to kill everyone and everything in the galaxy then they only have themselves to blame for Voyager being so scared of them that they worked with the Borg.

tfw you're a fucking moron who thinks saying "women aren't bad" is "SJW".

Disagree with the former, but completely agree with the bureaucrat thing. Weird how so many people think themselves more competent than Janeway who's contextually stuck in a complete hellhold, has to manage a ship in the bermuda triangle of the galaxy while they sit back and nitpick in their calm office, spinning in their chair Dunning Krugering all the while. Just a thought.

+Person Oisels I said I put it aside because we're talking about a fucking TV show and not real life.

Grizzly907LA News, Politics and opinion. Amen to that!!!!! Well said

Sergio Milho 8472 was a bigger threat. They would have wiped out every race.

Kenneth Draper didn't the borg assimilate them? If that is the case Borg after that is now a bigger threat.

The weapon Voyager's doctor created didn't allow the Borg to assimilate 8472. It was merely highly effective at killing them.

Sergio Milho. The Borg would have gained more technology and knowledge, but the Borg would still be the Borg. Ignoring most beings and only attacking/assimilating those with knowledge or resources they deem worthwhile. I have hypothesized that all the interactions with the Borg up until First Contact was simply the Borg prodding the Federation into advancing to a point that they are worthy of assimilation.

DrewLSsix that is actually a neat idea. Like, show them what you have, see how they respond and advance to combat you, assimilate them including the new technology that can defeat your old tech, modernize. So you think they haven't really been trying to assimilate earnestly? It's all been a ruse to push the federation to a much better technological level. I'd love to hear more. I don't want to step on your theoretical toes.

ale rep at least she's a step up from vice admiral holdo.

no need to ever apologize for big comments ;)

Ha ha, thanks for understanding. One thing I think we can both agree on is that Voyager has a lot of grey lines that characters walk on. And also that the writing was pretty haphazard at times but nevertheless I quite enjoy Voyager. On this particular debate there are good points for both sides, you did a great video. Everyone will weigh things up a little differently. You have a new subscriber in me!

My argument would be that , if they had attempted negotiations more than once, it would have went sooner.

On top of that I would also say that the Borg would have eventually destroyed or assimilated Voyager. Voyager was gathering intelligence on Borg space, and if it ever fell into enemy hands, it could clearly provide a map to some key installation or blind spot in Borg space (I think it was the same logic Janeway used). It would not be in the Borg's interest to have blind spots in their defenses because it would open them up to surprise attacks.