Irrespective of how we, the viewers may feel about this encounter - I think it's appropriate as Christians to encourage one another to be regularly praying for Travis. 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves to be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors, do they not do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Even the Gentiles, do they not do the same? - Mt 5:43-47

Bro you got bodied by this guy. Calling someone arrogant doesn’t mean you automatically win

I keep thinking about Proverbs it says "you answers before listening, that is his folly and shame." this guy speaks before sentences formed almost every single time. I think I would've walked away and told him he's got atrocious manners, and that he should go home and read his Bible.

Really appreciate how the brother slowed down the conversation. Thank you for modeling how to do this. I take notes and go out when I can. Many Mormons at my school. May the Lord bless you and continue to grow Apologia ministries.

Travis is by far the smartest person in this discussion; Aaron is the nicest.

Change title to “protestant gets owned by mormon”

I love how Travis is holding Aaron accountable to his words. I love Aaron’s kindness. A Mormon that goes on the offensive… I don’t have any problem with it.

Aaron, great job I hear your heart, he clearly wouldn't receive it. I pray for the mustard seeds to grow!

A perfect example of someone listening just to respond rather than listening to learn.

This guy is a piece of work.

This guy did a great job keeping his composure, defusing the situation multiple times, using the opponent's terminology/language (such as Heavenly Father), & overall just staying focused on topic. Travis tried several times to shift the goal post, interrupt, gaslight, railroad his opponent, committed several fallacies, & was very quick to speak but slow to listen. Only insecure people need to belittle and talk over. Bro literally asked "source?" almost every sentence that came out of the other dudes mouth. He also had several contradictory statements the entire time throughout the conversation. Honestly sad to see how unintellectual he is. Most these comments saying the guy in black got "cooked" i guarantee were sent by the people from Travis' missionary group discussion just to hype him up. He's gotten cooked several times by EO apologists & doesn't even know basic theology. This is demonstrated & seen in the video by him not being able to distinguish the distinction between justification from sanctification. Remember folks, the LDS church comes out of the 1800 restoration movement known as the Stone-Campbell-Scott movement, just roughly a timeline of 200 years ago (Literally known for "restoring" the gospel in its fullness). The guy in the black did amazing & was so patient in a situation that most would have gotten frustrated in or let this get them under their skin. This was executed very well. May Travis repent from his false gospel & church beliefs, truly.

Only Travis is the one that totally understands what SWK was REALLY saying in his book ? Wow! That book totally made me realize how impossible the LDS gospel truly is.

Travis laid out a great explanation of LDS theology and how dishonest the gotcha questions are that are used in Apologia's street interviews. His style may turn some people off, but that doesn't negate that he theologically dismantled every false premise, doctrine, and assumption one by one. Aaron was patient and kind, but he still refused to have an honest discussion when Travis pointed to falsities about Mormon theology that he had been spreading. That's the problem with these type of discussions - the evangelical street preacher comes in with the premise that everything he believes is correct and what he "thinks" he knows about LDS theology is correct. When presented with an LDS apologist with a deep knowledge, evangelical street preachers never listen and continue to use the same tired mormon tropes that have been debunked many times before. LDS theology is basically Christianity-explained. I don't understand why evangelical pastors purposefully distort LDS theology and attack latter-day saints. Its just sad.

“Adam-God?” Oh thank you Aaron it was worth watching this far to see that conundrum you brought to light so beautifully. Sad that “people on the street” according to Travis cannot possibly understand because they aren’t as smart as him but Jesus taught children and the gospel is beautifully simple. 1:13:08

I think I interacted with Travis ten years ago on Facebook. Seeing this video explains so, so much.

Travis argues like Matt Dillahunty does, in the context of "atheism vs christianity" . It sounds like Travis is saying you can't know anything about anything, so idk how he knows anything about what LDS theology is. I'm sure he's going to come in here and tell me how dumb I am lol xD

I hope hope hope to have gracious patience Aaron has to someone as obstinate as Travis.

It's evident that Aaron participated in this conversation out of love for Travis. Pearls before swine entered my mind early on into the conversation, but I want to commend Aaron for continuing the talk for just short of two hours. The result may not have been a changed heart in Travis, but hopefully a soul saved from the thousands who will watch this video. Thank you for your faithfulness in serving!

As difficult as this attempt at a civil discussion was with Mr. Anderson, it was very instructive. Thank you for posting this. His arrogant attempts to control the discussion via interrupting, straw-manning, and provoking were extremely offputting. I have NO idea why anyone would want to be in any church that produces members like this. If this is the fruit of Mormonism, I'll pass! Mormons, I would simply ask you this: Is this the type of person that you want representing you and your church to outsiders?

This Mormon is insufferable. I really kept giving him a chance and some grace but he continued to get worse and worse. Everything he says and believes is absolute but whenever anyone else speaks it’s question, question,question,deny, deny, deny. “According to who?” “Thats your understanding” “That’s a presupposition” “That’s your problem” “blah blah blah.” Many things come to mind about this Mormon but one thing really stands out. “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools” - Romans 1:22

As an exmormon with an online presence exposing their false doctrines I was recommended to watch this (from a believing Mormon) as she said Travis would “mop the floor with me.” As I watch this I am appalled anyone would accept his explanations and believe he soundly analyzes the history and teachings of the church. The lady going back & forth with me who loves Travis uses vocabulary and terms just like him in “defining doctrine” and downplaying any question as “presupposition.” It’s as if she admires and quotes him more than their actual prophet, which is terrifying. I am so impressed with Aaron’s composure and patience, love that he finally said pearls before swine at the end too!

I dont understand how you have the patience to talk with travis for 2+ hours. Keep up the good work

The Christian was so patient and respectful....some fruits of the spirit for sure!

Did this guy just say being born again is a "silly experience"? A burning in the bosom is not?

A conversation like this with Aaron well over a decade ago was instrumental in my eventual coming to Christ after I left Mormonism in 2020. I’ll pray for Travis that eventually the Holy Spirit will reach him and he will recognize his sin and error, repent, and turn to Christ.

I wonder if Travis has friends. Imagine being Travis’s manager.

You can learn a lot by demeanor in this conversation. Basically, Travis disqualifies any explanation given, generally before the statement is ever complete. He interrupts, he refuses to let scripture be quoted unless it is a single verse, etc. I was LDS and a missionary. We memorized verses from the Bible to support LDS beliefs. Most faithful LDS members who want to have a discussion like this at the very least would allow the other person to speak. Travis quotes little if any scripture and is intellectually dishonest about the consistency with which the LDS church leaders have described who God/Jesus are. The 1835 LDS former canon of the Lectures on Faith described Jesus and Heavenly father of being beings, Jesus with a body, the father being only spirit. Smith also described the Holy Spirit as being nothing more than the mindset between the two, not another god as the LDS church teaches today. Travis shuts down the arguments by interruption and he generally nullifies the authority of the Bible. When the Mormon explains that the Jews were polytheists he interrupts the Christian's explanation that their polytheism was something that God rebuked them for believing. That's pretty much the way the whole discussion goes. The Mormon is very controlling, very weak.

This mormon is clueless. He talks like he knows it all, but by his words proves he doesn't.

How many times are you guys going to post this video 😂 You got bested, cope with it😂

Really good example of difficult conversations you may run into while evangelizing! Really enjoyed this even though it was frustrating at parts (as I'm sure it was for Aaron!).

Aaron is clearly a better man than most, demonstrating patience and love where I know I wouldn’t be able to.

This man has a lot of pride..

Travis: An epitome of hypocrisy.

Just to clarify Travis recorded this and this whole conversation is over 3 hours long. So there might be things that have been left out.

Aaron, you were so extremely patient with him. In spite of his confusion tactics, especially in the way of rapid-fire assumptive statements, I applaud you for maintaining focus and being clear in your communication.

I have learned so much from Aaron Shafovaloff

This guy is so angry. I’m surprised usually Mormons are such nice people.

This Travis character is really hyped up. He should learn the art of not interrupting so much. I pray he eventually calms his spirit with Jesus.

This guy is so condescending yet thinks he’s the good guy.

This guy wants to hold you to a ridiculous standard that simply doesn't apply to him for no articulated reason.

His daughters come up to talk to him and this Travis dude waves them off with a “5 minutes darling”… oh his face!

Travis is straight up intellectually dishonest here at many points. The King Follett conversation is a prime example.

This Christian is the most patient loving person I’ve ever seen ever😢

I've never seen such a rude and arrogant LDS "apologist"! Sad. Thank you, Aaron and Apologia Church, for your ministry! God bless y'all.

This “LDS” guy is insufferable. He doesn’t seem to hold to any standard which allows him to duck & dodge at his pleasure. He calls his own church’s view irrelevant at one point. Such a lazy way to argue.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. God doesn't care it's 2024. You changed He hasn't and He doesn't care what our opinion is.

The way the Mormon had to dance and constantly interject means he doesn’t have a solid position

It’s like he presupposed subjective everything

Ive never seen such an aggressive mormon

Aaron here. I am the guy on the left. To those LDS missionaries out there watching this: I pray for you and I want you do know the grace of Jesus that I encountered. I encourage you to read the Gospel of John and Romans with humility.

The Mormon guy has a nasty habit of equivocating when convenient and obfuscating by over complication when convenient. That’s really disappointing to see from someone who wants to be taken seriously

They always attack God’s word. Obviously the foul words coming out of his mouth reveal the condition of his heart. This was good! It’s amazing how when God saved me I knew nothing of scripture. When He changed my heart I thirsted for His word and to do good deeds. He can’t get past the fact that God would forgive his sins and he is secure in his salvation. There’s always work in the this poor man’s mind. He must learn that his works are like filthy rags

why is the guy with glasses so mad?

How could God have ever sinned? He sent His Son into this world as a living sacrifice for our sins and His Son replaced the unblemished sacrifices. If the Son was unblemished how could the Father have been blemished?

This Mormon apologist is impossible. He is dishonest about the LDS faith and the Christian faith. Might possibly be the proudest person I’ve ever seen.

Not an effective "apologist". He wants to argue for the authority of his LDS "apostles" but says "classic latter day saints' understanding is irrelevant". He is like those papalists who argue for the authority of the latest pope to totally contradict what has previously been authoritatively taught invoking papal authority. Mormonism is full of doctrinal and moral confusion because it denigrates the authority of God's word in the Bible.

❤ Aaron was extremely longsuffering with this interruptung, closed- minded proud man. Praying for him🙏💔

Thought I’d be fair and go watch the full conversation and see if the extra hour would by some miracle make Travis look better… it didn’t. Even more rude, factually incorrect statements, kept cutting them off and never letting them finish a sentence, called them stupid over and over, and then for some reason tries to say he’s not Travis and then gets annoyed when the guy tries to clarify. Really odd behavior

Mr. Travis thinks that making it sound like someone is ATTACKING his person is a valid argument to shut down FACTS... HISTORICAL FACTS, BACKED BY SCHOLARS, ARCHEOLOGIST, ETC ETC... 🤦‍♀️ Kudos to Aaron for enduring 2 hrs of this... 🎉 PRAYING FOR MR. TRAVIS TO TRULLY SEEk THE TRUTH AND FOR GOD TO SOFTEN HIS HEART...

Travis won...... most annoying, most interrupting, most antagonistic, most deflecting....if he is going to reject scripture, shut down points being made before they are finished and only accept his own opinion.... it is impossible to lose, but he has disqualified himself from actually winning anything. He might as well put his fingers in his ears and mumble incoherently.

The original conversation was over 3 hours long. Why'd you cut out so much Aaron? Also, Travis' approach to Gospel principles is very circumspect (which may inform or be informed by his background in Law and a previous period of time as an Athiest). Generally-Speaking, when people talk and interact, there are a lot of assumptions going on that we don't even think about, so the value in taking a circumspect approach in the realm of God yields the fruits of a more profound and confidence-building result. (Takes stepping-stones to get to that point, so don't worry too much about it. God can and will work with you as you are.)

Whew! Hard to believe I made it through the whole thing. The gospel is simple. Way more so than the Mormon apologist wanted to make it

Apologia really took an L on this one.

Many times he says "I disagree with that premise..." or "I don't agree with that theology..." He's proving that he is the authority over Scripture. I also find it interesting that he makes no claims with what he or the church believes. (an atheist tactic to avoid being wrong)

Travis (LDS): "You would have to rely a revelator, which we would call a "seer" to understand those texts. " Aaron(Christian): "Do you think that your prophets have given a consistent picture of who God is?" Travis: "Yes" Aaron: "Adam God?" Travis: "Well. I don't think that's doctrine. I don't think that he was speaking doctrine". Aaron: "So when you say that the LDS prophets have given a consistent view of God you're only referring to its cannon?" Travis: "What's wrong with that doctrine?" Aaron: "Well, your leaders condemn it." Travis: "It's not false doctrine. It's misunderstood doctrine and the scholarship on this is robust." I do not believe that Travis is intellectually disabled, but I do believe that he is spiritually disabled. He has been taught to put his faith in the LDS leaders over what God revealed thousands of years ago. When they change the doctrine, the LDS convince themselves of a way to excuse the history that proves that the LDS isn't consistent, because it isn't the restoration that they claim that it is. In the course of 2 minutes Travis claims that it wasn't doctrine, then that it is "misunderstood doctrine". The LDS learn to pivot quickly when confronted with a contradiction. Becoming an apologist for the LDS doctrine can be damaging to the ability to logic. It was one of the things that I noted when I was LDS, and realizing that it was broken logic a significant part of my path to exiting.

It's crazy to have so much hubris that you can repeatedly call someone stupid over and over and still can say your not being confrontational

The LDS denomination is ridiculous. For example: -Their forever changing doctrine. -Their leadership runs off opinions/interpretations. Whoever claims personal revelation is from YHWH actually worships themselves. This guy in the hat & glasses doesn’t understand what he’s defending.

Travis Anderson has repeatedly said that losing your temper is a sign of low intelligence. In this video, we see him losing his temper repeatedly. I guess he has low intelligence, according to himself. He also seems to be willing to embrace homosexuality which is surprising and he also seems to deny that the LDS is a restorationists church. It appears he has adopted the idea that the church is being restored and has not actually been restored, which puts him at odds with Smith.

Around the 26min mark the man speaking for mormonism describes works based "salvation" and earlier in the video he mocks the born again experience. Jesus said that eternal life was to know God - "know" as in intimacy. We are saved by grace not by any work. I was a mormon for years, went through the temple to be married, obtained all the priesthoods, learned the handshakes, symbols, etc... it is not biblical christianity and has no power to save.

Travis makes excellent points. Aaron is stuck in his preemptive nonsensical Fallacious bubble.

Man this was an exhausting conversation. I commend the guy trying to witness to the Mormon. I personally don’t know if I could mentally handle his behavior. God have mercy on his soul.

No one in the comments would be able to hold a conversation like this. It’s pretty evident in what they are commenting. Go read.

"You can't live in a world of 'this is objective' and 'this is subjective'". -Travis Uhuh. 😐 "Can He actually speak a word from the sky that everybody hears and can understand the same way?" -Travis Umm... 😐 "I don't have a god that interferes with my own free will and agency". 👋🙄 Right. So basically Travis is; -not sure of his reality, -he cannot tell what is real and what isn't, -he cannot tell what's true and what isn't, -and he refuses the ultimate authority of God who tells him the truth about reality. 🗺️ This guy is up the creek without a paddle, LOST and CONFUSED, and even if someone got him a map he would still be lost because he's blind and refuses to see... 🕶️ 😑 And people go to this guy for support of their delusions that allow to remain slaves of sin, in the snare of the devil, and bound to hell... ☠️ Literally the Biblical, Jesus-given definition of the "blind leading the blind". You wasted your time with this man my brother, you should have left him alone like Jesus said to do and focused on saving a soul instead. 👇😐 "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." -Matthew 15:14 📖

1:40 its over. Aaron trapped him. Travis world view is incoherent. In a formal debate you listen to your opponent and then when your time comes up you challenge the ideas proposed by your opponenet. Travis couldnt even do that for 15 seconds. Trust me this type of behavior spreads into all aspects of his life even personal relationships. Hes insufferable. Most likely a narcissist.

Actually, I want to thank Apologia for posting this. It takes a lot of bravery to post a video of yourself getting owned

I was somewhat surprised to hear Travis say that the analogy of a Father adopting a child can be used to explain grace and salvation. That is LITERALLY the analogy God uses in His word to explain grace and salvation! The only reason Travis says "it doesn't make sense" is because Mormonism cannot comprehend actual, biblical grace and salvation. The analogy doesn't make sense within a Mormon mindset, which is why he said "it doesn't work" and "it doesn't make sense." Yet, that's exactly how God explained it... Telling.

I think it’s very important to have these conversations, but I think it’s so counterproductive of sharing it, when the thumbnail includes divisive clickbait to call the guy arrogant. Even if he was acting a certain way, just let that speak for itself, you don’t have to feed into it for views.

it seems to be if u have modern day apostles you can overwright all of the bible....

Everyone has presuppositions Travis, it’s unavoidable and natural. 1:09:11

Just as I thought you were giving someone who wasn’t caught off guard by you proper representation at last, you cut it off when Aaron decided it was pearls before swine. You guys are hopeless.

You got eviscerated, mainly because you have no clue as to your own interpretive lens.

Alternative Title: Apologia church makes the mistake of interviewing someone who actually knows the doctrine of his church, therefore doesn't go very well, which leads to calling said member "Swine, arrogant, and insolent." If you are going to preach to Mormons that they are going to hell because they dont believe in your man made beliefs about a 2000 year old document, you should be more prepared.

Middle aged, pseudo intellectual, wanna be hipster dude is exhausting.

There seem to be a lot of comments from Mormons that are overly dismissive of Andersons behaviors throughout the conversation. It’s as though they have no category in their thinking that these things are condemned by the scriptures. 1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, slanderers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power; avoid such people as these. - 2 Tim 3:1-5 We see Anderson being boastful, arrogant, unloving, irreconcilable, without self-control, conceited, etc. Such behaviors are not a ‘win’ , they are a sin. Accordingly, 1 Cor 13:1-4 outlines that even if you know all there is to know and don’t have love, you’re merely making noise as we see done here on Andersons end.

Who told this guy a person can't read, study and interpret what God has to say in his word..

LETS MAKE 100 BILLY 100 TRILLY 🙏🙏🙏🙏

33:00 where would he get the idea members believe what the prophet said because they’re lazy?! Travis, this is disingenuous and lazy to just throw out the obvious truth because it’s inconvenient.

We all know that Travis (burner account: ​ @LazarusSchell) lies throughout this video, but a great example is at the 35:35 mark of this video. @LazarusSchell says that the King Follett discourse is an obscure passage. This is lie. Travis knows it's a lie. Yet he repeats the lie multiple times. What does the church says about what Travis is saying? "There is no complete or verbatim record of what Joseph said, but several individuals took notes, making this one of Joseph’s best-recorded sermons. In the sermon, Joseph taught about divine nature and eternal progression. He countered the long-standing theological tradition that treated God as wholly different than humanity. He explained that “if men do not comprehend the character of God they do not comprehend themselves.”3 He taught that God “was once as one of us” and that “all the spirits that God ever sent into the world” were “susceptible of enlargement,” having the capacity to become like God in the eternities.4 Joseph also taught that a core part of each person is coeternal with God, comparing this divine core to a ring, without beginning or end." - THE LDS CHURCH How many lies can you spot in what Travis was presenting based on this text directly from the church's website? How about Google AI? "AI Overview The King Follett Discourse, delivered by Joseph Smith on April 7, 1844 at a general conference in Nauvoo, Illinois, is considered one of his greatest sermons. The sermon included several important teachings, including: Humanity's premortal existence: God was once human, and all spirits sent into the world have the potential to become like God in the eternities Divine potential: People can become gods, and a core part of each person is coeternal with God The nature of God: God is like a man, and the Father once lived on Earth as Jesus Christ does The Joseph Smith Papers Accounts of the “King Follett Sermon” - The Joseph Smith Papers Joseph Smith gave an address on 7 April 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois, at a general conference... The discourse also included the idea that people must learn how to make themselves gods. LDS Church president Lorenzo Snow later summarized some of the discourse's doctrines in a couplet that is often repeated in the church: "As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be". Generative AI is experimental." Travis is a liar and should be ignored by Christians and Mormons alike.

Thanks for posting this, learned much about the Mormon theology! great work by Travis

20 min in Aaron realized he is getting schooled and cannot compete with the intellectual superiority of Travis so he knows the only way this video will be successful is by trying to depict Travis as an “arrogant” and rude person and he is so patient and Christlike. Aaron knows Travis entirely dismantled his theology and the way he approaches Mormons.

Even if we gave Travis doctrines, theology from only a single chapter from one author he would go right back to his view of possible errancy due to human origins. He wants to only adhere to what is said by whoever is in charge today.

This dude is very hostile.

This guy is manifesting. Excellent patience from Aaron 👏🏻

Ahhhh and here is the problem. At 102:47 the Badger (Travis) said,” I’VE decided God can only do certain things.” After watching all of the video, I’m so confused on Mormonism now. I have no idea what the LDS believe but I thought I knew. First Travis said he believes in Heavenly mother then he said no heavenly mother? Is this guy making up his own doctrine or is what he said actually true?

Mr. Anderson keeps asking for 1 Scripture, from the Bible, that outright explains or says Trinity. Can he apply that same criteria to LDS beliefs of theTelestial kingdom, God was a man that became a God, pre-existence, temple marriage, using only the Bible?

“Theres not a single Divine author of scripture” -ignoramus “All scripture is God breathed” -God

I’m surprised y’all posted this instead of “gotcha” questions to unsuspecting members. Travis won, time to close up shop and convert to the true church.

The fact that Travis didn’t know what “keep coming back to the cross” means is argument enough that he’s not a Christian

I love how many strawmen the Mormon creates while also using the weak defense mechanism golden oldie "That's YOUR view of scripture." No, it is the PROPER view of scripture, and it is utterly sloppy debating tactics to assume your opponent is incorrect when you cannot find support for LDS doctrine nor any fallibility in Christian teachings since Jesus & the apostles.

Wait a minute. Why didn't it include the entire interview? Somebody emailed me the whole interview. Why did you guys cut off the last twenty or thirty minutes?