You are free to question anything in the LDS church just so long as you arrive at the approved answers.

Yes it is I lived five decades of being told what to eat, how do dress, what to watch and what to listen to. I took an oath to kill my self in the temple. I was told it was better than I come home in a 🌲 📦 than to come home early from a mission. And finally I was lied to by my leaders regarding the religion.

My experience with the LDS Church began in mid 1970s when I met a young Mormon, and despite me not being a Mormon, we married with the expectation I would eventually join, and frankly I initially expected to sooner rather than later. At first what I knew about the church was the idealized but highly truncated version afforded to investigators...the sanitized missionary discussions, the love you to death fellowshipping during Sunday services, the whole nine yards. Again, this is in the 70s before the internet. Yet, even with the information available things just weren't adding up. I had the temerity to do what investigators as well as members are discouraged to do and researched. When I discovered Smith's polygamy for example (learned about the polyandry much later), it was always, "that's anti-mormon lies." Same with the anachronisms in the BofM. Then there were the lies like the demographic excuses for Young's and subsequent polygamy that said there was an imbalance in the ratio of women to men. The words of wisdom...fat, and unfit mormons telling me I was sinful for drinking coffee. Then there was the idiocy that was almost insulting, like, the wine that Jesus created at the wedding feast wasn't really wine, just unfermented grape juice. Then I discovered Fawn Brodie's book, and I will never forget the angst and disgust from members. That is all satanic lies, you should only read church approved literature. In fact, I quickly observed Mormons are the most "devil made me do it" denomination out there, no small achievement among Christian sects. Having been a bit read on Stalin's Russia I fully realized the implications of this "only read church literature." Then there was the blatant, unapologetic indoctrination of children, the constant, mind numbingly repetitive " I KNOW Joseph Smith is a prophet," and I KNOW this church is true," clearly conflating knowledge with belief or faith. I was struck by parents instructing their small children to repeat this dogma in front of the congregation. The final clincher was when I was in a ward that made the mistake of allowing me, a non member, to attend the Sunday priesthood meetings, and learned things that were not intended for investigators or nonmembers. Over a number of years I came to the conclusion this church indeed has many of the traits of a cult. Maybe not a dangerous one like The People's Temple or Heaven's Gate, but a cult nevertheless. My coming to this conclusion eventually contributed mightily to the break up of my marriage after twenty five years. Devastating at the time, but in hindsight the best thing that happened to me. The information the modern internet now makes available serves to reenforce my conviction that this church is a cult, and to be an active member requires an effort to remain ignorant of and in denial of the facts.

This one just makes me mad. I'm getting on my soapbox for this: Granted, most human organizations share at least some cult-like characteristics. But how many have a mission field? Whether and to what extent the Church is a cult is certainly up for discussion. The mission field, however, is unquestionably a high-demand cult experience. For two years, every aspect of my life was controlled by rules laid down by a mission President. I had rules for when to wake up, when to study, when to work, when to eat, with whom I was allowed to eat, and when to go to bed. I had rules governing how I dressed, where I lived, how I could get around, and even what name I was to be known by (hint: it wasn't the name everyone at home called me but my title). I had no privacy to speak of. In addition to having a full-time companion who was never to be outside eye/ear shot from me, leadership had an uncontested right to enter my home at any time to ensure I was keeping missionary rules. I was not allowed to socialize with women, nor was I allowed to take in unapproved media including books, music, or movies. I was allowed to write letters home once per week but told not to share any doubts or discouragement. I was allowed to speak to my family twice per year. And leaving the mission field without the consent of my mission president would have been nearly impossible--even though I served in Tulsa, Oklahoma; a 12 hour drive from my home! To make it even creepier, from the time I first learned to listen in church, this experience was sold to me as the "Best 2 Years of My Life." The mission field is, 100% a cult experience. So let's be honest. If the core of leadership (even membership) of the church has been through this 2-year intense cult experience, how likely is it that those cult-like control tendencies continue into "civilian" church life? You don't just turn those feelings of dependence and blind faith off because now you can choose your own bedtime.

I've always known that it's a cult, but I never wanted to admit it.

A well thought out debate about the LDS Church. Keep the discussion going, Nemo. Thank you

The Mormon church should be characterized by it’s “fruits.” - Profit and non-profit companies in real estate, and assets totaling an excess of hundreds of Billions which are largely hoarded, not used charitably. - Repeated instances where the institution intervenes in politics, while claiming political neutrality to maintain it’s tax exempt status. - Hard stance to enforce sexual shaming in worthiness interviews on one on one interviews to investigate sexual matters of children and young adults without therapeutic credentials. By these fruits, the church is a sexual shame-promoting, political, and money hoarding organization.

Your content is so rational and well-done. Thanks for this!

Great video! I like the “horse” on the shelf behind you ;)

Nemo as usual great job in laying out the facts and flaws of the Mormon Church. I have noticed one thing the Mormon church does when it tries to defend its beliefs...it always tries to tie them to the Bible. Odd considering the Mormon church doesn’t consider the Bible reliable.

Thank you for your informative and concise evaluation. I appreciate that you are to the point and don't linger on for hours over subjects like some other podcasts. I am a loyal follower so far. Carry on.

YES! The comment about needing an attorney to leave the LDS religion, that's the icing on the cake. I'm grateful for your objective view points.

I appreciate you bringing up the bite model! It is interesting to note Hassan's statement that something can only be measured by how cult like it is. And it is also really interesting to look at how many boxes the church ticks off.

"to choose the way of everlasting death..." Well, when you put it that way the choice is clear, I choose death. I certainly don't choose a religion that preaches strict obedience and uses fear and veiled threats to control its members. David seems a nice guy but he certainly has an uphill battle when the leaders prove him wrong at every turn.

I ended a debate by asking a true believer "What would the church have to do different in order to be a cult?"

A cult is defined by having a leader or belief system that is to not be questioned. Cults are abusive. They follow the chart of coercion. There are cult-like aspects of the church such as being taught to not question the doctrine or teachings. If you are not free to think for yourself in an organization, you’re most likely in a cult.

I don't worry about being whisked away into a dark room and force-fed green jello. It's those Mormon "Utah Funeral Potatoes" that I worry about! (Thank God I never lived in Utah!)

Intelligent, thoughtful, reasonable, simple, respectful. Really enjoy your videos.

I agree that name calling may produce some emotional release for the person saying "cult." The focus for those who want to help those abused by the LDS should be on doctrinal issues, biblical research and translation, historical research, and the exposing of illegal and unethical activities.

Nemo , You are breath of fresh air!! Thanks for your logic, calm demeanor, and graciousness. We the many, are blessed.

Dude, I hope you are using any revenue from this channel to fund a legal education, because you would make a damn fine lawyer :)

This is a though one. The term cult can be stretched and used on so many ways. It also depends on people LDS or not. Everyone sees it different and lives different.

I like your approach. Dont loose faith. Errors are human but that doesn't get into God's way. I like that you are exposing the fallacies being used as old school marketingvtactics. I am finding out if i will become the communications and messaging manager for the Church Priesthool and family services committee. If hired I will really pay attention to your feedback. Keep us honest and errors in critical thinking called to attention. Thank you for serving Heavenly Father and Holy Mother in Heaven in this way. Fear not you are serving a critical mission that will have lasting effects for millennium. ✝️🤵😇👰📯🦄💓

I had not thought much on this topic, but I do consider the LDS doctrine non-Christian and that is what I mean by cult. I also think there are commonalities among cult religions; 1) they seek to isolate their members from outside information and non-supportive literature, 2) they dominate the time and activities of members, 3) they demand almost absolute allegiance to the elders/leaders and their teachings, 4) they make every attempt to bind families together and to keep member families in tight social circles (building community within their organization and isolating from "outsiders"), 5) if a member shows/voices any public disloyalty the punishments are drastic - shunning, excommunication, cut the offender off from members, friends, family and their social network. This describes the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Scientologists and even some "Christian" churches which seek to exert power and control over members. I am sorry that cult has a pejorative aspect to it in common usage, but my meaning is more descriptive. Christian doctrine teaches we are sinners saved by the blood sacrifice of Christ, the perfect lamb without spot or blemish (sinless) not by perfecting ourselves for perfection is unattainable. Christian doctrine teaches there is one God-head, and there never was or will be any like unto God. Jesus said that in heaven we are neither married nor given in marriage, though all Christians collectively are the bride of Christ. Cults do not teach these basic truths and they try to put blinders on their members to keep them from seeing outside the walls of their own organizations.

Getting away from the church sure felt like escaping a cult...

I would really like to see you delve more deeply into the BITE Model. I feel like focusing on the vague definition found in the dictionary makes it too easy for members to step away from recognizing what cult behavior really is. The Mormons don't check all of Steve Hassan's boxes, but reading his book was a real eye opener about how I had spent my life being emotionally manipulated into believing they were the "True" church.

I deeply appreciate your clear and critical thoughts.

I really appreciate your use of logic vs. fallacies, Nemo!

I’m so glad that you are able to be clear minded and see the logical fallacies because as a teenager age 17 trying to communicate with my parents they tell me things that get me confused and then later I realize it is just a logical fallacy. It is so hard. I say that all mormons should become lawyers because when push comes to shove they can twist words and ideas around in order to support belief

Excellent analysis. My critical thinking & argumentation professor would be proud.

"I teach [the people] correct principles, and they govern themselves." ---Smith, Jr. Actually, Doug, this is an "urban legend", among the members of the LDS Church in Utah. (I researched it years ago, and there is no written evidence that Smith ever said such a thing.) (Paul H. Dunn concocted faith-promoting 'stories', as well.)

People forget that benign cults are still cults and not religions. I suppose some cults could be beneficial if the leader/doctrine doesn’t use the inordinate amount of control over the cult members for his/her own nefarious purposes.

It’s totally a cult.

Great job Nemo. I had to go through an attorney to get my Name out. My family has judged me and most has stopped talking to me.

Is Mormonism a Cult? -Yes. (Roll Credits)

Thank you Nemo for your balanced logic , for your calm and gracious demeanor, for your economy of words. You are able to cut through difficult and pain full issues, and get to the heart of the matter. Well done.❤ I am Exmormon. My experience, and what l have learned about it is bad. You help me examine Mormonism with less trauma. If you leave Mormonism, you will be shunned.😥

If only Saints Unscripted would run through the BITE model...

Mormons also have a taught persecution complex. The Missouri extermination order used as a way to cause them.to see anyone who disagrees as a persecutor.

Great work as always, love your concise and accurate language. Till next time my friend!

Great video. You touched on this, but I'd be curious to know whether you would assert that every religion is a cult. Personally I wouldn't, not only because I'm not familiar with every religion (just as no one I see), but because if any definition of "cult" is either synonymous with or a superset of "religion" then it's not a definition worth using and loses all power as a diagnostic tool (as you elegantly term it). Great video as always my friend!

I wasn’t allowed to talk to my family while I was on my mission, and they were all members!

One difference between a religion and a cult is that religions tolerate and mostly ignore any critics and naysayers, and just move forward with those who have common beliefs. Cults, on the other hand, have very little tolerance for members who question or criticize the organization or its leaders, and will move to punish and penalize offenders in many ways, usually making it as public and painful as possible. Social pressure is a powerful tool, and one that cults depend upon heavily for their status and longevity.

When I first began exploring Christianity, I was surprised at how loosely Christians use the word “cult” to apply to any religion that both claims to believe in Jesus Christ but denies specific traditional or orthodox creeds (e.g. the Trinity). Mainstream Christianity’s use of “cult” strikes me as an extraordinarily rigid and aggressive tactic to maintain a certain level of conformity and exclusivness. That said, just because the word “cult” is applied loosely to your religion by some doesn’t mean your religion has no cult characteristics. Others have assessed the LDS Church according to the more objective and evaluative BITE model, and I recommend those videos here on KZfaq.

Saw you on Mormonism Live. Subscribed as soon as I found you. Great content!!!

A feature of a cult is that it is a high demand religion. In this respect Christianity, as taught by Christ, was more of a cult than modern mormonism is. This is because Christians were required to give up all their possessions. Christ also taught that no-one was worthy of Him who loved their father and mother more. Early Christianity was not family orientated, and believers were required to forsake all including their families... unlike mormonism where families are sealed together forever. Where Mormonism genuinely is more of a cult in the pejorative sense, is the deliberate concealment of information from members. Christianity is in the Bible, where people can interpret and argue about it as much as they like. But mormonism is more complex and it takes quite a while for converts to know what they have actually joined. If they knew what they were getting into many would never have got involved.

Great video!

Love your insights and videos. People like to throw words out there that make the hearers to immediately form an opinion and judge without knowing facts. Cult is one of those words. Yes, the church has many rules. Yes, the church has many not so honest leaders. Yes, the church has lots of money. Yes, the church uses methods of shame, coercion, and such thru convincing members to do what they are told (some call it brainwashing). One big difference that the church is NOT a cult, is the fact there are no locked gates or barricaded compounds to prevent people from leaving. Members are free to come and go. Of course the leaders don't want members to leave. Less members means less money. The leaders want power and control but it's not enforced physically. Only members on missions have various restrictions. Otherwise, folks can leave the church or stay.

Wow! Very nice rational breakdown. This is great! Love this!

Nemo. Always fair and balanced. A modern Mormon treasure.

How about the secret handshakes, otherwise known as ( signs & tokens) so you can have access to Heaven… well maybe their heaven, to pass through the veil… what bat crap craziness was I being taught!

Great video! I love your responses to Saints Unscrupulous ... I mean Unscripted! 😳

Our definition of a cult is any group that teaches allegiance is to anyone other than God alone.

Love your videos! I hope you keep doing them.

After over 50 years in the LDS church it's very cultish. If you're in it long enough you won't see it, is generational. You know no different. For us it's life. . Just because somebody says the church is a cult doesn't mean it's a negative. Read the definition. I have to say there are many rituals secrets and off the wall stuff that makes us, LDS church a cult. But even as recently as Brother Bentar's talk about male Mormon missions, freedom gone. Mind control has begun. It's a cult. When you lose your freedom to make your own life choices you're in a cult, mind control cult. Thank you Nemo, you are correct. Love your videos.

one interesting thing ive noticed is that the jackasses at fair mormon or midnight mormons pick on several different youtubers with mockery and asshattery. I have never seen them pick on you. They know that you have standing in any argument that they float. Well done.

Nemo, I have been listening to your presentations for a while now. I commend you on how you provide simple straight forward thoughts on often very controversial issues. Compared to the many other social media commentators on LDS issues, I find yours to be easy to understand, short, concise and in a non-emotional format. A joy to listen to. Of course, your beautiful English accent only adds to your creditability compared to us Utah English speakers who butcher the queen's language.

That Bill Gates reference hasn't aged well now that he is going through a divorce due to infidelity and his ties to Jeffrey Epstein . S.U is implying that because Bill carries himself as a harmless goofball that is what he is most likely to be. When examining parallels between persons or organizations, each item should be valued on its individual merits.

Another Great episode! Thank you Nemo

The church is true and all the blessings. i am very grateful for the church they saved my life and put me on the path of redemption even after all my sins since my baptism

You're brilliant, my friend...plain and simple

Thank you for the explanation of the core beliefs of Christianity as it contrasts to legalism, the core of the vast majority of religions and denominations.

Great channel. Thanks for your thoughts.

What does he mean ‘we don’t threaten you with Hell if you leave?’ Or is my understanding or apostates being sent to outer darkness missing something? Wasn’t there that image from the Ensign (or whatever it’s called now) with the shoots and ladder image sending apostates directly there?

Great information. Insightful as always.

Key takeaways: watch "the Burbs" if you haven't. Also, watch it again if you have. Is there a kind of fallacy that's Part vs. Whole? Composition? Perhaps? "Lots of places have drains, like my bathtub, so what if this dank champer oh pain has a drain in the middle of it by these chains. Are you saying that MY washroom is a torture den?" I can kind of get where this fellah is coming from, and I really feel like he's being genuine, and send like my mind of feller. It's not just the charismatic leader, it's the other pieces which, once in symphony, can kiiind of sound like flavor-aid.

I think "apostate", a term used by Mormons to describe those who leave is perjorative too...

You did a great job on this!!!

I hope David watches this - straight up logic.

Let’s look at the direct definition of the word “cult” and then the direct detention of “sinister” and then we can debate whether or not the church has “sinister” practices. I believe if the church has “sinister” practices then we can safely conclude that it is a cult. But what part of the practices seem harmful or evil?

I see the church as somewhere between cult in the serious sense of the word Heaven's Gate etc and faiths that require nothing of people in terms of time and commitment. Same with the modesty standards. We aren't quite as extreme as Muslim women who wear burqa and niqab but not as extreme on the other end where anything goes. Also within the faith there are individuals and families that are more hardline than others, that use the fear of God to control rather than the love of God to free.

A lot of people don't use the term "cult," probably for reasons discussed here. Instead, they might use a more precise term, such as "high-demand/high-control religion" or "new religious movement." A high-demand/high-control religion is defined as "a faith community that requires obedience; discourages its members from questioning its rules, principles, and practices; expects subservience and loyalty; discourages trusting relationships outside the group; perpetuates the notion that those within the group are right and superior to those outside of it; promotes extreme or polarizing beliefs; and expects its members to suppress their authentic selves in exchange for the sense of belonging and security the group offers. Even if you haven’t been part of a religion that fits this profile, you’ve probably encountered groups characterized by some of these elements, whether in the form of a family system, a couple struggling with domestic violence, or a political group."

I was told that when I left the church, that I was choosing to be with Satan and the fallen angels in outer darkness. I would still be resurrected, but could enter heaven. I really don't like when leaders/members intentionally distort the truth. If God revealed that to joey, then it cannot be amended. Unless his god doesn't always tell the truth.

Hi Nemo, thanks to Peter and yourself I know more than I ever wanted to about the LDS. There are any number of ways I’ve been enlightened by your discussions.just listened to you on “21st century saints “ as well. Btw the link to your KZfaq under their podcast is somehow incorrect. For this and other queries there’s no easy way to message you. No doubt providing an email is out of the question.

What you need to ask a Mormon is name one cult that calls itself a cult, most people in a cult believe that they have found the truth and they are so special to be a member of that group

Great upload! And I am thrilled that you used Steve Hassan’s recently updated edition for its 30th Anniversary, “Freedom of Mind.” In the book, he says because the word cult is so charged, he labels any religion, Relatioship, political ideologies, etc. as imposing “undo influence.”

I think the thing that rings cult to me about the LDS church is how anti intellectual they appear to be. From what I’ve heard from a lot of former members and even from clips of church leaders is that you are taught to doubt your doubts, doubt everything that runs contrary to what the church teaches you and try get your information from the cult. Even the more modern youth oriented apologists you can see constantly trying to employ subtle half truths and logical fallacies to cover their tracks and try dissuade members from questioning themselves. I’m not sure if it’s also true but I’ve heard from some ex Mormons that the idea of the Holy Spirit and praying being the only way to confirm your beliefs is also quite dubious to me. There are a lot of other weird things about the church but this is just one of them that rings some red flags to me.

Red Flag: Obey the current prophet. Do not question. As per LDS leaders in conference talks, don't pray to God for confirmation that what a current prophet and apostle said is true and correct. Just obey.

If there is a human at the head of your religion it's a cult. There is only one mediator between man and the father.

You can choose to not follow the principles they teach you. It's totally your choice! Except then you can't enter the temple to see your family member get married if you don't follow the rules and pay money. Yeah, totally a fair, uncoerced choice. /S

Would you consider go to the #allreligionsmust protest outside Jehovah witness convetintion?

Academic critics have always questioned the legitimacy of Smith as a prophet as well as the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. Criticism has expanded to include claims of historical revisionism.

Doing great work NEMO!! Thanks for what you Do!!

LOL!!! Terrible timing for the reference to Bill Gates!!! What was the nick name of Epstiens plane he flew on?

Another great podcast from Nemo. I could not agree more with your conclusions.

Great stuff as always!

David is so smart, I don’t see how he honestly says the things he does.

When I call anything a cult, it meets from official policy, teaching, and doctrines and comparing it to the BITE model, and the more it meets, then it it’s higher on the spectrum of cults. Yes, there is a certain views of “cult” that people want to distance themselves from, like Jonestown, and Heavens Gate, which David mentions. There’s similarly between me (independent evangelical Christian) and a reformed baptist, but the more something meets the BITE model, then the more it is a cult then something comparing something like Non-denominational church is rural Australia, or SDA, or LDS or even political Groups. When I try to explain to a former LDS friend, they thought it was an attack on them as a person, when they have a better “Education” when I use very specific and clear terms. And just to David’s point, not once did a member give me cookies, when I left. Also, when I left Nemo, I didn’t have to send a notarised letter by a lawyer, or had to go to meetings, but I did include in the email addresses that I sent my resigning letter to, was my bishop and stake president. Clearly stating there’s no way I can stay a member after taking advice of church leaders and studying the faith and “doubting my doubts”.

Mormonism is not a cult Mormonism is not a cult Mormonism is not a cult Mormonism is not a cult Mormonism is not a cult REPEAT...

“If it looks like a snake, sounds like a snake, and moves like a snake.. it’s a snake. Except for when you’re making valid comparisons between legitimate harmful cults and our church.. otherwise, it’s not a snake. Because I say so” 😂

Cult: from the Latin Cultus, meaning "worship".

Is the B.I.T.E model accepted among the sociological and psychological professions as the way to diagnose cultism(in the contemporary use of the word)? Or is it a very well written dissertation that is in no way authoritative? If we appeal to the B.I.T.E. model as our method for assessment, what are we assuming or presupposing? Are we assuming thar this model was made independently of religious prejudice? Could it be that Steve Hassan presupposed or relabeled certain religions as cults and then developed a model to justify his prejudices? In fact, that is the method he used. The cults, like Maoist China, were identified first, the BITE model came to describe their methods later. Many methods listed are already utilized by both extreme and moderate societies. For me the question is, but when do humans justify their uses? Mililtary taining is seen as a necessity to the national security of nearly all governments. The typical methods utilized by even western nations in the training of their force resemble the BITE model quite completely. Why are we ok with this? Is it because we benefit as a society from it? I only use this example to show that it really seems to be the ideals and intentions of the institution that utilizes some methods that must align with public ethics and morality to be accepted rather than the use of the methods themselves. No doubt people have been, are, and will be harmed by many different forms of religious zealotry that most can wasily accept as cult like behavior.

That comment... “We might bring you some cookies”... Is disgusting, it is so indicative of the way that so many Mormon people view and treat those who have left the church... my sister-in-law lamented to me once that she was “going to be so sad that I wouldn't be in the Celestial Kingdom with her”... Presuming I suppose that being Mormon was a sure way to get there... DISGUSTING!!!!!

Golly gee, it sure is beautiful seeing all the "Former LDS" moving on from their "cult-related trauma" that they never need stand on the Name, skills, wisdom, and knowledge they inherited from the church. The ego is a fascinating beast; surely nothing of merit can be gleaned from a people of such stubborn resilience?...by all logic they should have been destroyed several times over if they did not draw from the memory of truth and long-suffering. Who can look about the time we are now in and not see use of Lehi's Dream, Wars and rumors of Wars in "America" before Columbus, Proclamation to the World, Word of Wisdom, Porter Rockwell, John Browning, Ezra T. Benson (on The Constitution), Executive Order 44, etc. As for me; i have been equally guilty and blinded but i also now behold that great and spacious building everytime i pick up this phone...i choose to put my shoulder to the wheel, for not doing so hath made me weary.

Douglas "Nemo" is 100% correct

High demand religion is probably a more accurate label.

David doesn’t want to talk, hence they block any non Mormon questions on their channel. It’s just for reinforcement of the church not actual answers to questions. You should ask a hard question on his channel, no answer and blocking you is the solution!

It is a cult. But telling that to Mormons is not going to help them or you. It will destroy any chance of you and them having a discussion with them. But I’m going to not call something a cult just because it makes a Mormon mad.

I would say that the church is most definitely a cult, but one that's kinda trying to not be a cult. But so long as the prophet sits in the throne of God without a system of checks and balances, it will continue to be a cult.

Are any of your sources outdated? How credible are they? No malicious intent here I’m just asking a question?

Does anyone else just wait for the BITE model to show up?