A good, clean bearing edge helps too. I've noticed no big difference between the sound of my wrapped finish on my Pearl master studio kit and the Laquered finish on my Master Customs. In fact I find the wrapped finish has a warmer tone and a faster decay.

@@GredelsRage Which is exactly the point. The 'warmer' tone is the added mass and the faster decay is the decreased sustain. Therefore, your wrapped finish does, in fact, alter the drum. Now, is it a bad thing, no, not necessarily, but to some it might be. Some folks want to be purists 'just because', others are looking for a specific sound. The later are less likely to tell you you're doing wrong and say, that sound isn't for me. The others are just being pretentious. As for me, I tend to approach each kit on its own merit and use them accordingly. A looser, plastic kit might sound better in a boomy open hall, where a more active sustain might sound a bit better in a more sedate room. I hate absolutes, because they are 'absolutely wrong'. lol

@Eric Stearns so my sound is just personal preference? Makes sense.

If a drum is wrapped correctly (glued with a 3M or = contact cement) the wrap virtually becomes one with the shell. I’’ve been playing professionally and re-finishing drums since 1972. I’ve had natural finish drums that I played, then wrapped and there was no difference in sound. I have to say I always bought my materials from Precision Drum Company because the quality is top notch. There are some really cheap wraps out there that I would not use.

Plus , if you don't have a good tune to play , none of it matters

Thank you! Stayed tuned.... I'm tackling shell materials next (wood(s), metal(s), acrylic, fiberglass.....). A bit daunting, but hoping to have at least a part one shortly (probably wood as a first video on this followed by another for metal, etc., but we'll have to see). I'm trying to keep it focused, so it doesn't wind up being an hour or more of me bloviating! I appreciate the encouraging words! Thanks.

Those 5-ply Slingys are HEAVY DRUMS! I LOVE them (a buddy of mine has the copper wrap versions, and they have balls for days!

Yeah, I've seen their pattern for wrapping drums. Don't know how true that is, though certainly a flat, round shell is ideal. Depends, I guess on the actual outer diameter of the shell... if the head can spin freely on the shell. I'd be curious to do an audition to see what difference it does make. Interestingly, Ludwig (which I understand is now owned by DW) machines their plastic wraps with a beveled thickness at the ends that tapers down to nothing, allowing the seams to be perfectly flat, not raised, preserving the roundness of the shell.

The early wrapped kits from DW were so crude in their finish I could see why they got scientific about it..

The wrap quality will vary with who did it, how long ago and what procedure and materials were used. So, bubbles may - or may not - happen.

Thank you so much!!

My kids gave me that hat for Christmas a couple years back. ;)

I am actually working to devise a scientific way of demonstrating this, among other things I've talked about in the other videos so far. The discussion is useful, I believe, but I really desire to demonstrate these realities in a obvious way. Stay tuned... I think I have come up with a way and will try it out shortly. Thanks!

I got that story from the book "Beatles Gear" by Andy Babiuk. The story you tell is quite different from the one in that book. According to the book Ivor Arbiter (who ran Drum City in London) was, apparently, the Ludwig importer for the UK, and he was willing to do a deal with Ringo for a free drum kit only in exchange for having the Ludwig logo painted prominent on the head to be clearly visible from the audience (before then the Ludwig logo was on there, yes, but at the bottom, and not very big. By having it big it would be advertising for a brand that HAD to come through Arbiter, so he'd have a piece of all of the Ludwig kits sold in the UK. The book goes on to reveal that Ivor Arbiter also created the famous 'drop T' Beatles logo that was used on all the bass drum heads (all of which were hand painted by Arbiter's drum head painter guy -- yeah, a dude who custom painted band logos on drum heads for Arbiter!). The book clearly shows the differences between each of the hand painted logos on the various kits.... pretty interesting stuff. Arbiter reportedly designed that drop T logo in his office after Brian Epstein balked at the idea of having a large "Ludwig" on the drum head of a band called The Beatles, so Arbiter thought up the logo then and there to include as well. Also, in Rob Cook's wonderful book, "The Ludwig Book," he tells the story, related by William Ludwig II, that his parents were both shocked, when watching the Beatles' original performance on the Ed Sullivan Show in 1964, to see the hand-painted "Ludwig" logo so prominently displayed, which was something they had never seen before, a story which seems to confirm that the large logo was not a Ludwig decision, but Ivor Arbiter's attempt to sell more Ludwigs into Britain. Nevertheless, I wasn't there (not around, myself, till the summer of 1968! ;) so wouldn't be shocked if there was some nuance to the story that has been lost over the years. Thanks so much for being here!

@@drumdotpizza Very interesting, thanks for getting back to me. That story makes alot of sense too. I had heard the story of Ivor drawing up The Beatles logo on a scrap piece of paper because Brian didn’t want the Ludwig logo without a Beatles logo exactly how you stated. The more I think about it, would the Ludwig logo really have just been a sticker back then anyway? Probably not, it would have been painted on back in those days. I’m not sure if I knew that the same guy painted all of his drum heads, that’s pretty kool to know. The story I heard was from an interview with Ringo, I’ll try to find the link, I’m sure it’s easy to find on KZfaq. Just because it’s coming straight from Ringo, doesn’t mean it’s exactly true though of course. It could be a condensed version of what really happened. Again, what you’re saying makes a lot more sense, especially from the standpoint of a drum dealer. Thanks again, I love learning more about music history, and Ringo is one of the reasons I really got into drumming when I was younger. Hope you have a good day.

Well said!

Did you see the Bell Brass that just sold on eBay???? $24k!!!!!!!!

Exactly. I find it interesting (and disheartening) that people too often confuse their opinion and preference with empirical, objective absolutes. I know you're talking drums here, but really, how much more peaceful I believe people's own lives would be if they would simply embrace this idea on a larger scale -- and how much more peaceful the world would be as a natural consequence.

@@drumdotpizza omg. You took the words out of my mouth!

@DrumDotPizza not at all dude. Drum philosophy is life philosophy. Do something because you want to youll suck at first. This isnt sucking. Its learning. IT, Nursing, Music, if you want it fo it (but please getbyour bad nursing out the way in school)

Thank you so much! I'm always reluctant to say someone (including myself) is 'correct' or 'incorrect' about a subjective perception. But yes, speaking empirically, DW was correct in stating that wrapping a drum in plastic alters the performance/sound of the drum. As to whether that is a good or bad thing is in the ear of the beholder, of course, and not an objectively "correct" or "incorrect" way to build a drum. To John and Don (I assume) NOT wrapping is the preferred approach, but market forces has had them wrapping their drums in plastic for over 30 years now (and I truly doubt they could have become the powerhouse manufacturer they are had they refused to do so). Interestingly, DW's "Classics" series was created to replicate the sound of the drums of the 30s, 40s and 50s (mahogany/poplar shells, large maple reinforcing rings, rounded edges, AND plastic wrap!). When ordering a set you can "choose from a wide variety of Finish-Ply wraps." I'm guessing they'll do all finishes upon request, of course, but this is part of their promotion for this series. Plastic wrap truly is part of the sound (and charm) of old drums.

Thank you for the insightful reply, looking forward to more of your content!

Excellent, thank you! I have a new book to put on my reading list!

@@drumdotpizza No problem! Its a great read

Thank you for your kind words and for being here!

Have you ever removed the copper wrap from early 70s Slingerlands? They only made that finish for a couple of years, but it is downright deadly stuff.... will slice you to pieces trying to remove it! Yeah, the American companies used lots of glue and pressure on their wrapped finishes. The mahogany shells in particular (Slingerland used an outer ply of mahogany just about up to 1980) are prone to being pulled apart/shredded when pulling the finish off. Lots of heat to soften the adhesive will help preserve the mahogany veneer it's glued to. From what I've seen Japanese companies (Pearl, especially) often used tape only at the seams for their wraps (and the hardware obviously holds the wrap on well), which makes rewrapping those drums something of a breeze, usually. Having said that I did remove wrap from a Tama Imperialstar shell from early 80s that was glued all the way around (factory Metallic White wrap), so they did glue some all the way around. Other vintage Imperialstars were taped, so Tama, at least, evolved their method of wrapping shells over time. Thanks so much for being here!!

@@drumdotpizza I'm stripping an 80's luan Gretsch Blackhawk right now and the final damage was repairable. Tried the heat gun and it melted the wrap before the double sided tape let go.5 rows of tape and the ends...

Another man who love Ringo... so glad to have you here!!!

@@drumdotpizza my pleasure !!!! I learn a lot from your videos ( I owned a Hayman gold wrap Vibrasonic kit back in the 70.s, It was a 2nd hand kit 20 13 16 y 14 wood snare. Was in a terrible condition when I got it. I rewraped the kit in White marine and then sold it and bought my first 2nd hand Ludwig kit 22 13 16 1970 white marine....... what an instrument !!!!! - Blue Olive badge and clear interiors )

@@frenkelsoundco6962 Lovely! I love the 3-ply Ludwigs as well. In fact, if you're interested in a second kick for your WMP Ludwig kick I actually have a 22x14 shell, early 70s, clear interior in WMP (same as yours), but no hardware on it. Gonna list it on Reverb later today, in fact, so just thought I'd throw that out there (though I doubt you're actually looking for one). Great drums, those!!!

@@drumdotpizza thanks !!!! but...... I live in Argentina so its a bit far !!!!! I sold the Ludwig Kit in 1981 and then bought a brand new Gretsch Black Nitron 22 12 13 16 standard sizes

Tape would allow you to go back to the original finish, yes, though I don't know what harm, if any, the adhesive of the tape would do to the finish while on the drum.

@@drumdotpizza Thanks for replying man, I appreciate it! Not a lot of guys do but you seem to make the effort. Oh no, I didn't mean the tape would harm it. I meant painting the shells or glueing the wrap would be more work, a big pain in the ass, more expensive and non reversible. With just the tape, in the worst case scenario, I'd have to remove some residue if I ever decided to take the wrap off. Getting a better looking drumkit and having the option to go back with minimal effort cleaning up sound great to me. Anyway, thanks again man. have a good one.

You're right! Beauty is in the ear of the beholder! And I prefer tea! ;)

"God's honest truth". -Morgan Freeman as "Red" on The Shawshank Redemption.

Agreed!

Yes, I agree. I would argue the bearing edge has a much more profound impact on the sound of a drum than plastic wrap would. (And heads. And tuning, and muffling...)

LOL DW hogwash.

Yes You are 100% Correct

A Lacquered shell actually has more dampening affect than Wrapped one. It is absorbed deeply into it and seals it totally.

I am in full agreement with you -- one of the things I noticed over the decades of recording drums is that virtually ALL entry level (and some mid-level) drum kits lack a sealer on the interior -- the wood is raw and bare. As a result the drums lack clarity and definition in the higher frequencies (which get sucked up by the raw wood). ALL professional drums for the last many decades have sealed interiors, even if it is only an oil rubbed finish (which doesn't shine). The wood is sealed, however, and that layer of protection keeps the shell from sucking up the highs so much, so they reflect and hang around a little longer inside the drum, creating greater clarity and a brighter, livelier tone (regardless of the mass of the shell). I haven't yet gotten to this topic in my video discussions, but it is coming, so that's just a little preview ;) So take an early Pacific CX or MX series maple kit, for example, and seal the interiors (and smooth the bearing edges of the shrapnel left behind from the routing table with a little 320 grit sandpaper before sealing), and they become very nice drums indeed! Cheap and effective!!

@DrumDotPizza lol. Nice comment about the 320 grit. Everyone says don't go above 220 grit. On bearing edges, i finish with 320 grit then 0000 steel wool.

I don't think most drummers know who Ellis Tolin was. I bought a big set of Sonor phonic drums from him with concert toms. They had a sharp 45 degree edge and even though they were thick shells, they had no sustain. They sounded good, but the note cut off right away. They were covered on the shell in thick plastic, too. The glue mentioned in the video that was sticky was probably just contact cement, which wouldn't hold the plastic tightly to the shell.

@@davidlanier7006 Thank you so much for bringing this up! Your post provides an interesting reality that I hadn't thought about including in this series of discussions, but now I might (because it's worth addressing, IMO): concert toms. Single heads toms have no resonant heads to interact with the batter for a longer period of time. As such the sustain of concert toms depends heavily on the type of head used (heavier films and/or dual-ply heads will produce far less sustain) as well as the tuning used. Anything above midrange tension will likely shorten the decay of the drum (even more so for smaller diameters). Thin, single-ply heads tuned at or below midrange will produce the greatest sustain on a concert tom in my experience. The lack of resonant head severely limits sustain.

@david lanier you're correct about the contact cement, but it's a specific type; 3m fastbond 30NF. I use it exclusively, and it's the one precision drum uses too. Gotta love Sonor, it was my first kit. But mine were thin shell, definitely a beginner model. They were somewhat resonant, as i best recall. So you were familiar with music city in Philly?

No matter what anyone thinks...I prefer my wrapped drums for gigs, while my natural wood set stays safely at home. Cheers!

Right on! I'm a fan of that slightly darker tone (I like the stronger fundamental it produces).

I'm actually going to try to knock out a couple of comparison videos the week after Christmas, so hopefully I can, and they'll be ready to post probably just after the new year.

I actually have a video on isolation mounts for toms (including RIMS design) coming up, but not so much in the way one might think.... I think I'll be clearing up a few misconceptions (at least one, anyway, a big one that I bit hard on about 40 years back and haven't felt the need to question till just recently. If you're a real drum geek you might like it. I suspect most folks will just move on to another video, but at least I can get some stuff off my chest and ask a few new questions.... I may just learn a few things in the process!

@@drumdotpizza Right on glad to hear and i'll be on the look out, and thanks for letting me know. Yeah I was sarcastic on my comment and like you i've been around a long time seen it all on the subject(s.) That being said it can get a lil over the top on certain things like wrap etc, then we're like man that 69 silver sparkle Ludwig sounds soooo good! ( : We all have to do what best for us plus try and create our own voice and get our complete set ergonomically comfortable, and of coarse looking and sounding good. I've actually played a wrap most of my drum life (a few decades) and got nothing but compliments so 'it is what it is...' I really enjoy your videos keep em coming and thanks again for the reply. Peace

I've not played the wood/fiberglass shells from Pearl. Heard good things about them (mostly), and would really like to try them. I have a lauan kit that I'm gonna redo (stencil kit) that I'm considering lining with fiberglass inside. This is the combo Pearl used, I understand (lauan shell w/fiberglass inside). Not sure yet though. The shells themselves are much heavier than any stencil kit I've ever seen (12 ply!!), and I may just spiffy them up, cut new edges, refinish, etc. just to see how good I can make them as a lauan kit.... We'll see...

Correct! Imperialstars were the ones with zolacoat interiors. In the video I mention Superstars and re-rings, not knowing for sure if they ever had them, but certain that by the early 1980s they did NOT (same with Imperialstars -- had re-rings early on, but they stopped that by early 1980s). Neil's custom red lacquer kit, however DID use re-rings, which I think is interesting, since Tama had stopped using them by that point. I guess they were just going off the Hayman kit that Neil liked so much?

Wrap is part of the drum and does impact sound, but I see it as 'this or that,' not 'good or bad.' I've played different drum sets that were identical in all but wrap on one and lacquer on another, and quite honestly differences in tone didn't really jump out at me. Whatever difference there was was minimal and easily addressed by head selection and tuning. Bottom line is I think people really bite hard on marketing when really it's just mostly marketing. Based in science, perhaps, but we're talking tiny percentages of impact, so frankly if you dig the look, wrap or stain, go for it!

Precisely! Martin, in fact, makes a very nice (and costly) guitar called the D-35, which is a dreadnought model with a 3-piece back known for its notably darker tone than the 2-piece back version (the D-28). It's darker, because the 3-piece design results in a body that doesn't resonate so easily, so just like in drum shells, when it can't vibrate as easily the make vibrating element (strings, not heads, in the case of the D-35) can produce a stronger fundamental sound. Like heavier drums the D-35 isn't actually producing less high frequency information, but it isn't robbed of the LF content the way a more resonant body design is, so it feels darker overall. Plastic does that for drums, and I, for one, would be fascinated to see what it does on a quality acoustic guitar! Might be a bit overkill, certainly compared to amore traditional design, but could be pretty fun (and amazing to look at!! :)

Beauty is in the ear of the beholder, and it seems your ears are most pleased with thinner, more resonant drums that have a higher percentage of harmonics to fundamental. I'm in the other camp... LOVES me some fundamental! And yes, DW bought the tooling from Camco (turret lugs, etc.), but Don and John built their drums from a different mindset than Camco from the outset. In fact, when I first learned about "Drum Workshop" drums they made only natural maple finish. Period. They avoided wraps from the beginning, and for cost reasons didn't offer other finishes stock. That was around 1980 (they were mostly just selling their 5000 chain drive pedals at that point). Within 10 years they were quickly becoming the Rolls Royce of drums and still refusing to wrap any drums in plastic. Eventually demand won out, though, and they started wrapping them. Thanks so much for being here and chiming in!

That might just be the bottom line! :) Shameless plug... have you seen my video on building a Ringo (1963 black oyster pearl) Jazz Festival snare drum clone? It's a very fun drum (and a lot cheaper than buying a legit BOP Jazz Festival from the 60s!)

@@drumdotpizza I am interested! I found a great old Jazz Festival from the 60's at Sam Adato's drum shop. So loud! (responsive)🙂

John Good IS a marketing genius.

Great point, thanks for that! Layer upon layer of lacquer/poly/whatever does impeded the vibration of the shell too (the hardness and elasticity of such finishes is quite different than ANY wood that it would be applied to, so yes, it definitely affects the sound, particularly if the layers are thick).

Plastic is plastic! Back in the day covered finishes or pearl finishes, as they were known at that time , were more expensive than lacquer or duco painted finishes . Check out some old drum catalogs.

DW makes (or at least MADE) a concrete snare drum (part of their Collector's series, IIRC).... I want to play one.

I'm for it!!

The interior ply of that drum (basswood) isn't finished, that is there is no seal or coating on it. It's bare wood. And basswood is very soft, so the sound of the drum will be dark. If you want to brighten it put a couple coats of tung oil or the like on it (or seal with light coat of lacquer, poly, etc.). That will brighten the drum and make it sound like a more expensive drum.

@@drumdotpizza thanks for the sesponse man

Thank you! You can find me at Drumdotpizza on FB. Thanks for being here!