The belt system is bad for my ever-expanding gut

I hope you break into the martial arts KZfaq mainstream, Jake. You consistently deliver high quality insights in an easily-digestible format and even my Dad, an extremely cynical former boxer who disagrees with everyone on principle, has nothing but praise for the stuff of yours I send on to him! Good work man, keep it up and hopefully you’ll reap the rewards.

Funny thing is, the belts were originally introduced simply as a way for coaches to pair up intermediate level students and above with each other away from introductory level students. All a black belt meant in the beginning was no longer a novice .

I had a new white belt come into my class. The guy was a beast. D1 wrestler and had some level of judo background. Belt colors mean nothing, and it was quite humbling to see that while he didn't know everything, he was more than capable of putting together what he already knew to the great dismay of many of our higher belts. Great video, and an excellent reminder to those who believe that a belt color is a talisman to ward off evil or guarantee success.

I used to compete in Judo a lot. I definetly had over 100 fights. My Gym was by far the best in the country and we were also pretty successful (we even won a few medals in the latest olympics) internationaly eventhough our coach wasn't the best fighter himself. And when it came to belts, you had to have competed at a certain poitn. We had a little booklet our coach would stamp after a tournament. The reason was because after a certain rank, I think it was 5th or 6th kyu, you had to have fought a certain number of competitions. It wasn't a crazy amount, maybe like 5 fights and it went up by 5 each rank. You didn't have to win, just part take. But our coach always said, if you want to rank up in a Martial Art we expect you to have Martial Experience. I always thought that was a very good take

The belt system is great for large groups from an instructor standpoint when you have a very objective curriculum. However, some schools have way too many. While I agree belts have become about getting money that was not their intended purpose. The belt system was first used in Judo and adopted from competitive swimming. The belt color did represent skill and it was created to keep the sport of judo fair so that all competitors were competing against equally skilled opponents and prevent mismatches. Basically no pee wee players going against major leaguers.

It might make sense for kids (some kids at least). I used to train judo as a kid but simply stopped "graduating" (doing the katas and tests) since i figured out a lower belt gave me an edge at competitions. Being underestimated is sometimes useful and I'm a lazy person so doing work for little benefit is not really my thing. I was also fortunate to be at a dojo with a competition focus so most of the coaches were supportive and did not push me to "get the belt".

Yaasss!! Besides the whole "I'm a black belt, so I know better," there's also the "I'm a fighter/champion, so I know better." I was arguing with someone once on where you should look during fighting. So, I asked a close-by black belt about it, and the answer was "you'll know when you fight" or "when you fight, you'll figure it out" (I can't remember exactly). This sounded wise for half a second, before it became painfully obvious that he didn't know the answer and just used his fighting experience as a way to dodge the question. A lot of times I hear you can't understand competition fighting (or you can't train others for it well) without actually fighting, which... cool. There are certain insights you get while fighting in competitions just like you get certain insights whenever you spar. But, even if I didn't get your fighting insights, I can still steal them from you. I can ask you and 20 different other Senseis, get the best information from all and combine it into a training curriculum that's superior to all of theirs. The advantage of the 'underdog' is that he's actually motivated to go ahead and do his research while the 'prodigy' will think whatever got him/her to the top will work for everyone.

I recently rolled with a white belt who has been training for years and he kept tapping before I even had the submission on. When I talked to him about it, it came out that he was doing it because he assumed a purple belt could tap him easily. I hopefully set him straight

There is another aspect of function that wasn't present, the gatekeeping of knowledge. That belts are used as a means to justify not teaching a student particular techniques because "they aren't ready for it" reinforcing the need for this progression and validation. Alternatively if belts are an indicator that the practitioner has some knowledge, it's a shorthand to enable instructors to adjust their lesson plan based on the assumed knowledge of the class. All in all the conclusion is that belts aren't an issue, it's the values we and the schools place on them and it's only in questioning the value of a belt that we can actually gain the benefits they may offer.

I basically agree, but I still love belts. For me, they are fun. They help me to think about long term development. I also think belts should be individual and about personal progress, rather than an assumption about your ability to win fights. It's also a good record of time spent training and a reminder of your time on the mats.

your sarcastic persona or whatever it would be called... is so wonderfully entertaining :3

I agree with pretty much everything said in this video. I’m a 3rd Dan in taekwondo with my own club and with some of the jumping kicks I’ve used lower grades to demonstrate because they are younger, more flexible than me and can do them better 🤣

One of my BJJ coaches said your belt rank is just a representation of where your coach thinks your skill level and or knowledge is at.

I feel like you nail it on the head. It’s a mixture of everything, it’s positive reinforcement but its also something to show that you’ve done the work and gotten to a certain point. It’s kind of like those marathon challenges you see online that’ll give you a medal or something that shows you’ve reached a certain distance marker.

Another banger from Mr Violence!! Remember me? I was the guy struggling with grappling with women asking for advice. Something I left out was I had a lot of trauma associated with the touch of a woman's. But I've been getting more comfortable with rolling with them! Thank you for the advice. BJJ wasn't my cup of tea but I've been enjoying wrestling. One note though about no gi and gi. Wouldn't doing gi like... make you really good at something that gets only decent in no gi? Like wrestlers coming to MMA with an insane wrestling base vs a guy training in MMA from the beginning because aight at everything An anecdotal story from me supporting this is that a lot of guys (myself included) are ass with our hands because it's not very emphasized in muay thai. We supplemented it with some boxing because learning punching in a vacuum helps out a lot

I appreciate the way you make no claim to have any qualifications. It means you have to support your arguments from logic rather than being hypocritical and making an argument from authority.

Hmmm...suppose a martial art reinvented the belt system to have different belts based on the categories you described. For instance, someone might be a brown belt in competition, a green belt for time invested, and a white belt in fight analysis. Such a system would be more complicated for sure but theoretically would also remove most of the current downsides of modern belt systems.

A black belt is like a high-school Diploma. It isn't really equal and it doesn't really mean you are really good at something. In my experience.

It would be cool if belts were like lightsaber colors, and instead of rank they more so identified a person's interest or role. So you'd have a color for the ones who are competition based, and they'd have their own color system. Then you could have the ones more focused on light sparring/general fitness. Some could be more focused on sheer experience and knowledge, not necessarily matches won. It'd be kinda interesting to me, at least. Like you need help with your takedowns, so instead of just looking for a black belt you would look for a color signifying a person who is specializing in mentoring and knowledge.

Good stuff! Thanks for sharing. Belts are about motivation, accomplishment, recognition, pride, and rank/status … which can of themselves be good or bad, depending on how each of these reasons is viewed and/or utilized by an individual, a school, or an organization. There's an old saying, "Belts are for wearing around the waist, not the head."

They should have more belts you can earn for specific things and wear whichever one you want, like a camo belt for military service, $100 bill belt for how much money you've spent at the gym, gold belt for winning a championship/tournament, you could have some fun with that

I appreciate how thoughtful you are on this topic. The problem I see with removing belts as the solution to the problems you talk about is that there is going to be a hierarchy and egos whether you like it or not. The brain is constantly looking for and figuring out social hierarchies as a survival mechanism. To make matters worse, the brain is an efficient organ and it will almost always make use of some kind of shortcut to quickly and subconsciously figure out the hierarchy rather than activating the thinking brain and being all mindful about it. Belts just "solve" the problem and reduce the time spent figuring out who is higher and who is lower and narrow the process of ascending the hierarchy. Is it a perfect system that you can rely on without looking at anything else? I've watched McDojoLife, I know that it isn't. But as for the problems that belts "cause", I think they are just a visible representation of something we will always have to deal with. It would be better to try and improve the belt system, how we manage the hierarchy in a Dojo/gym, and educate people on how to identify charlatans, rather than remove belts and think it's going to flatten the hierarchy instead of just hiding it. If you want to keep egos in check, then social pressure and establishing a culture that punishes egotistical individuals is going to do a lot more than removing belts.

2nd Degree Taekwondo Black belt here, training for 23 years by now. I love your video and agree with your points but want to make an addition: As someone who does not like competitions for several reasons, I really like the belt graduation tests. It's challenging in an athletic and creative way, forces me to expand upon my standard training routine and especially black belt tests feel and look really cool for all present people, athletes, judges, trainers, and spectators alike. In the best case of a fair, well-regulated exam it's a sign of dedication and competence. At its worst an ego-stroking, cashgrab. But even I don't wear my belt in any martial art other than the one I graduated in and I am not too proud to take pointers from anyone who knows his stuff, no matter the belt.

Great stuff as usual! Personally, I love the positive reinforcement aspect. Like you said it makes it more fun which makes it easier to stick to it. But I do feel like their is too much emphasis on all of it. I guess what we need is more time explaining it kinda like you did! 👍 Makes me think of how people like you have been raising awareness on sparring etiquette which I've learned tons from.

this is a serious issue with top competitors that became coaches after retirement, short and stocky wrestlers are oblivious that their moves wont fit well on a tall thin guy (or the other way around) and as they are over specialized on a particular group of techniques they suck at teaching moves that might fit other body types/styles

your presendings are a gem and i am glad to have them

Also, coming from a traditional background that didn’t do belts, I can confirm that in spite of thinking that belts were only good for holding your pants up, I was walking on air for weeks after receiving two stripes together after training for a few months 😂

Just watched this, and really like your approach. Great video!

"Money won't make you happy" - said someone who doesn't have to worry about their bills "Real beauty is on the inside" - said the 10/10 supermodel who's never experienced being ugly a day in her life "Belts don't mean anything" - said someone who has reached the end of the belt progression "What is jiu-jitsu? Just get up" - said the 270lbs monster nicknamed Black Beast who can literally just get up

Great video! Well-balanced. Indeed, the belt system is just a tool, which can be used for good or bad. Ideally, I think it should be based on tangible criteria, and come with the necessary guidance to be used properly for beginners and higher ranks alike. Thanks for sharing! 🙏 - Patrick

Congratulations youve just awakened this utopian thought in me where we have a belt for every single skill and ability in martial arts lol

I just want to express my interest in that future video about gi, no-gi and training specificity. But great wideo, as always.

Another great video sir! Keep it up!

The question I'm coming away with is if the downsides of the belt system are greater than the upsides. I think that trade off should be the lens that we view the worthiness of any habit in a martial arts space. Side note: In the historical fencing organization I am a part of, we have a separate track for learning to teach and being a referee that is not fighting skill related. I think that being separate from our advancement system helps break down some of the issues you've highlighted. Thought? Love the content. Keep it up.

Tell the truth young man, consistently and with deliberate repetition, with redundancy for all lol. Your probably tired of me saying it, but this is a quality of content not often found through such a platform. Continue to distill and refine and grow down into your roots. Brilliant, just brilliant.

Very interesting. Great content!

I mean, isn’t it really both? Lol. You look at it from the perspective of kids classes for example. Getting belts, patches, certificates, whatever, gives them something to work toward. Keeps them interested. Cause if you’ve ever taught kids, you know that’s the most important part. Keeping them interested lol. As adults tho, it really is more of, you’re now paying the gym every month, helping to keep that gym going, which in turn, gives you a place to train. I think belts should be a personal thing. Does any one need a belt to be an accomplished martial artist? Well no, we have plenty examples of that thru history. Is having one for your accomplishments good? It can be if you let it. I’ve done martial arts for a few years and currently am training toward a black belt in karate. I know I don’t “need” that belt, but I’ve always been interested in karate and want it for my own personal satisfaction. That’s just my thoughts tho lol

I LOVE THIS!!😶 The honesty behind this is exactly what defines the idea of personal self improvement🤜✊️🤛

In Japan many federations will have a kyu/dan ranking system for personal progression, but a title based one for instruction-related positions (Kyoshi/Renshi/Hanshi). Not always how it’s used though, but FWIW the colored belt started with the Dai Nippon Butokukai in 1905 apparently, at a time where they already had titles for instructors, showing that such division of classification was most likely to serve this kind of objective.

I'm a seventy-five year old martial arts practitioner. I love it! There is always room for growth which keeps it interesting. I agree with you totally that belts are not really a necessity. In fact, in tournaments, I have found some competitors stay at a lower belt in order to compete with novices. One person had been a green belt for 10 years and had treasure drove of trophies on a mantle in his instructor's dojo. Another practice at a dojo I used to attend was the timing of belt promotions. To take the test, you had to pay a fee. Somehow belt tests always took place just before Christmas. I wonder why?

I think it’s a good way to gauge the progress of a student. I also believe that it depends on the how the belt was achieved. Some people pay for them and others by hard work. Hard work should always be acknowledged. I don’t feel that it is BS, in the right hands a black belt can do a lot for someone. That being said accolades to an egomaniac can have dire consequences. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power' -A. Lincoln

It's definitely good for the new people who have never trained, might be woefully out of shape, and have never thrown a punch before...i.e., me when I first joined my academy. As you mentioned in the video, it's a visual reward and reinforcement to the new person that they're working towards a goal. I'm only 1 1/2 years in to my journey but still recognize a lot of weaknesses that I have to work on and my blue sash, while rewarding and I'm proud to have earned it, also shows how little I know. There's nothing wrong with being compensated for providing a service, teaching total newbies martial arts, helping them get more physically fit, and furthering the continuation of the martial art.

Goin down an armchair rabbit hole today. Enjoying the info, laughin my ass off, and chasing the things you’re saying around in my head. I love it. I love it all.

As a life-long gamer, the belt system strikes me as very similar to an achievement system - you'll want those achievements, but getting them won't necessarily make you better at that specific game, though some do require genuine skill/long-term time investment to acquire. Elo ranking, by contrast, does measure skill within a specific group setting and can be equated more to competition rankings. I'm contemplating on refusing a belt if I ever get into any form of martial art (mainly interested in Greco-Roman wrestling, bare knuckle boxing, MMA, and potentially Muay Thai). For now, I'm still mainly a lifter that has a heavy boxing bag at home.

Very well articulated

It's a good motivation technique and helps instructors to quickly differentiate in mixed classes.

Seeing this I agree with most points, although I’m very glad that at our gym and from most of my experiences black belts I met have been very humble and knowledgeable of the fact that they are still people who don’t know everything there is to know

4:10 just because you're an expert in something doesn't mean you can't be wrong in that subject I love the appeal to power/authority fallacy

It is not hard to tell a world champion he doesn't deserve a bb at all. "A bb means mastery and understanding of the arts, you lack understanding and thus you don't deserve a bb yet" Tadaaaah

Surprised no one criticises the test/exam vibes. I myself already went to school, I already went to university, when I want to join a martial arts club, it is to go there, enjoy my time, and learn. Exams turn it into a disheartening 'do or die' or 'pass and FAIL' experience, I don't want these unnecessary nerves. The only nerves I need to face are that of purely fighting. That's why boxing takes the cake for me: simple, effective, and it's all about you stepping into the ring, learning yourself and learning via the guidance of the coach observing you. Enjoy the journey, appreciate the learning, trust the process, no need to learn 50 push-ups by month X, there's no time limit nor any duration to learn anything, it's YOUR journey and yours alone, no need to compare yourself to others which is a toxic habit belts can get you into.

Dude doesn’t run out of Batman T-shirts, great channel btw…

I agree, in my experience at several gyms the color rankings seem arbitrary or based more on longevity and number of classes attended. Classes are divided by color rankings so *in theory* people would be paired w partners similar to their ability, but often that’s not the case. I’ve been paired w people several ranks above me who are definitely less skilled and knowledgeable than I am, and people several ranks below me who end up teaching me tons. I am curious to know in your opinion, what is the best way to divide up classes to give students the best experience and opportunity to grow.

I am discovering the Art knows your dedication 🙏

Can relate with this. Spent 15 years as a kendoka, an art with a large amount of quality control in the higher grades. You can't get your higher grades without going to an official grading done by a federal jury. We don't wear any markings that distinguish us but use the same kyu-dan system. Compare that to my karate dojo, with next to no quality control, black belts are awarded as participation awards. Eg my girlfriend has spent about 9 years there and just got her belt. Whenever I compare her onowledge, skill and what have you to what she'd need to get a black belt equivalent in kendo... She'd still have quite some learning to do. Don't get me started on the guy who's inherited the dojo's absolute lack of skill, knowledge or coaching ability. Bloody frustrating

I'm a first Dan black belt in karate and I never pass up an opportunity to learn something new from anyone. If it's clear to me that they know what they're talking about and the technique looks valid I couldn't care less about your age or rank. My instructor is a 6th Dan but she'll often ask me to demonstrate a lot of the spinning kicks and high kicks simply because she's not as flexible and agile as she once was, whereas I'm young and quite flexible so I'm better for demonstration purposes. Great video Jake

Great points ma man.

Wouldnt a BADGE system like in scouts work better? Black belt with a gold star embroidered on it for showing up, a gold fist badge for winning competitions, one for knowledge & coaching etc.

In judo, they used to have belt tournaments. Someone would fight against people of the same belt. If you go 10 and 0 you would get promoted to the next level. When I was competing to get a brown belt or a black belt you had to be evaluated by a provincial or national (depending on the level) grading board. But before you could test, you needed to accrue a certain number of "points". You got points by winning in competition - more points for beating someone of a higher rank than you and less for beating someone of a lower rank than you (and none for beating someone of a much lower rank than you). You needed 110 points as a brown belt to test for your black belt. More than once after a national championship, I have seen someone be given a promotion on the spot without having to test. That is usually due to their performance at the tournament and often combined with performances at other international tournaments where the grading board decides this person clearly demonstrates the ability to be the next rank and does not need to be tested. Yes, there were paths for "non-competitors" to get promoted, but that required more time at each level. Being an instructor, referee, or administrator helped. But belt color was and should be about being good at your martial art - not about having come to practice for the longest, or paid the most in testing fees over the years.

You should have talked about where the belt system came from. I was waiting for you to mention that it all began around 1896 with the founder of Judo Jigaro Kano. Before that there was no belt system. Thank you for the video great presentation as always

You absolutely nailed it

Ooooohhhh I can’t wait to watch this!

I had an experience with being given a belt but not for fighting skill. After I moved I kept practicing kajukenbo and doing what I could. When I finally got to have another class with my teacher he ended up giving me my third green stripe (how belts work in Kajukenbo is you start with no belt, then white belt next, and then you have three stripes in between belts after that) He straight up told ne “you didn’t earn this stripe cause you’re good at fighting. You earned it because you were diligent in practicing and you listen attentively when I’m telling you things.”

I personally think belts look cool but that's about it. I love your channel bro youre so fucking awesome ans smart man

Yeah true, when i was switching from jiu jitsu to kickboxing my mom wanted me to wait until after the belt/slip exams, and i just wasn't having fun there so i switched without going for that month.

That kindergarden secret had killed me 😂

Can relate, my 3rd dan blackbelt kyokushin instructor was a specimen and can teach but some of the black belts under him are just kata machines but cant fight.

Thank you ! Yes a bit of both!

In Kendo, we dont wear belts, but we use the Kyudan ranking system to sort folks based on their memorization of techniques and philosophy. Theyre qualified to teach, but the rank only establishes their minimum understanding of shiai necessary to teach. Also, for us, first degree blackbelt is (shodan or First Dan) is a basic compentency (Senpai, upperclassmen, higher ranking lower enlisted in the military) You dont start teaching as a Sensei (teacher, NCO in the military) until fourth dan/degree black belt. The idea that you respect and dont challenge is about teaching respect, but youre expected to challenge the ideas in you mind, and to test your new resulting ideas in shiai/sparring, and once youre 4th dan, to leave and start teaching yourself.

External validation and not a positive reinforcement is not a negative nor signifier that someone is mentally weak or stupid. A lot of MMA UFC Gymbros talk about how they don't need a belt because it's external and "They know how good they are" and don't care what others think. Except the act of fighting is explicitly a social act where your goodness or badness at that act requires it to be done in comparison to other people. It's ok for people to be motivated by external validation such as belts or stickers, and it's especially ok in a field where your skill level requires it to be compared to others. Unfortunately when talked about there's almost always an implication that using positive reinforcement or external validation is an appeal to a weakness in humanity, instead of just how humans work. I do agree that belts can mean a lot of different things, even within the same martial art, but as long as people are honest about that I think some general consensus on what they mean is achievable, and we shouldn't use exceptions to throw out the entire system.

"There are great coaches that are bad fighters" like Ramsey Dewey.

Honestly I'd say it's a mix of both and the reason I say that is because certain gyms will not promote you to a higher belt unless you have the skills and others will despite the lack of skills. It's a dilemma I've seen quite a bit of but I don't think I have any better answer than what you might be able to come up with.

First of all, the greatest participation trophy I've ever getting forgetting my ass kicked for 5 years was getting my purple belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu I think belts mean different things to different people. I also believe that belts are more of an individual thing and you are responsible for the worth of said belt also, I would like to mention that you having a higher ranking belt does not necessarily make you better than anyone else

The only people who say or think belts matter are those who haven't gotten it and realised the game didn't magically get easier now. I used to have a problem with the belt system always thinking I deserved a higher belt or rank than I got. Nowadays I like the idea of being lower ranked as less is expected of me, and it hurts the egos of the higher belts when they get beaten by one >:)

I am a lover of the belt system. I find myself quite fond of the ides that our modern sport of mma was based on martial artist who compared belt rankings of different styles, battling to or near to the death to prove their styles superiority. Quite fond and almost nastolgic of the idea. There are issues like you said, but in a sport where the cost for failure is potentially serious injury or maiming then I think it's best to establish levels to combat, like the belts or rankings. People need a system to let them know where they stand, or their ego will run away with them.

Just as pointed out in this video: the belt system has pros and cons. I admit that in my early career it was very important to me.

Enjoy the objective views you share and seems to me belt systems are two sides of the same coin. I guess it just depends on what side it lands on.

This is your best video and l I agree with everything you say.

Back in the day, belts meant something. Now it's been diluted to where it's unrecognizable. To see a black belt in a school other than the head instructor left us awestruck. Now I see black belts sitting on the floor playing with their toys waiting for class to start.

My main reason for wanting to get the next level patch is because I enjoy the ego of nominally being the highest rank at the club. I can't fight for shit (which is why I'm taking boxing and kickboxing classes), but the idea of having a cool new patch does keep me motivated to keep training. It also helps that the higher-level curriculum is essentially guarded like a sacred text, so you can't even legitimately view it until you reach the required rank. I mean, the instructor is happy to show me everything from everywhere in the curriculum, even the stuff HE doesn't officially have access to, but the organization itself is...kind of stupid that way. But the advent-calendar-style approach to revealing the curriculum does provide an incentive to keep going, even though from a training perspective it's stupid.

Yeah, I need a not-a-certificate. Where's the nearest authorizing "Picked Off a Table" branch?

Your mannerisms in this video are so close to Jesse Enkamp Karate Nerd. Did you do that on purpose? If so, spot on. If not, uncanny...

i have never been a fan of any belt/grading systems. and of course to large extent it is like you say just part of marketing to keep the clients entertained with some sort of more tangible goal- as otherwise it is often difficult to notice our own progress especially when everyone around us is also progressing. I do however like European judo approach where it is quite easy to get to brown belt(circa 4 years of training at most clubs i came across)but once you do to get it, to get the actual black belt you have to gather competition points which can only be obtained by winning with another brown belt. more talented at competing in judo get to black belt quicker. if memory serves me well quickest way to get black belt in judo as a brown belt is to win 3 matches against other brown belts by ippon in a row- during one tournament. if you fail but you win at least some matches those points accumulate toward next competition until you gather X amount of points required for black belt. judokas that get their black belts this way in general are good scrappers- it does not however mean that their technical knowledge and or teaching methodology (or that they even have any) is good. but they can scrap well

Good points. I completely agree with everything you said. Whilst I was learning we had 6 kyu grades, however we only ever trained in white belts until becoming a black belt. Even then we dont have anything external markers such as tabs to distinguish between the dan grades. Now that I teach I rarely teach in Gi, because of the lot of the points you mentioned. I don't like the hierarchy. I do think "rewards" to show progression is a good idea but I'm not sure on current structures as learning isn't linear. You gave the example between teaching and competing, there is also proficiency with different techniques or styles. For example if you have a weapon based MA someone might be good with weapons but terrible empty hand or visa versa. It then becomes difficult to grade skill as its can sometimes be comparing apple and pears. I suppose that's why it would be difficult to have a belt system or similar in MMA (as it encompasses so many skills and specialisms). Personally I think the two really should sit separately, competition or proficiency rank and rank in teaching (assistant coach, specialism coach etc). Anyway, just some thoughts!

Hmmm those were really well constructed arguments. What are your thoughts on Josh Barnett saying how catch wrestling suffered by not having a belts concept. Both from the standpoint of lineage verification and the commercialization of the art that could increase the amounts of students?

This was pretty nuanced. The many reasons one would get a belt, be it time, competition, or contributions. I also agree that sometimes the belts can turn into a negative to the spirit of things. Some folks appeal to authority per the black belt and no one should be above learning or criticism in good faith. Ive seen black belts turn folks egotistical. The irony is sometimes that same ego actually screws them later because they sometimes become too proud to learn

I'm a 2-star red belt and I'm a member of the pioneering batch of students in my city for my martial art. I out-rank most of my classmates except for other seniors. When our instructor is unavailable, we seniors are tasked to teach the lower belts. I usually end up being in a class taught by a student one rank below me (1-star red belt) and quite frankly, he's far better than me. I just started training a year or so before him, but he has a background in karate and is pretty damn good. Belts, in my experience, only tell you what form a student should know, and how long they've trained. To be fair, if their belt is high enough, it's not unreasonable to assume they're at least decent at what they do.

I agree that this can be bad. I am learning BJJ, but I have a wrestling background, and on many occasions, we were allowed to practice submissions in wrestling, and our coach would deviate from the pinning rule on those days we worked concessions techniques. If there was no submission, then it was freestyle wrestling. One thing that I liked was that I was judged on my skill. I have trained in BJJ with a wrestler's mindset to free myself from the negative aspects of the belt focus. I started BJJ with over 10 years of experience with wrestling; no belt needed. I recall one time I applied a gut-wrench on a blue belt when taking his back and he was not used to the technique. I also learned that moves like the can opener were illegal during this time. The instructor let me go with a kneebar during a roll but told me I could not utilize it until I reached a higher belt level despite learning about these techniques in the wrestling I did. Then, for some unknown reason, his school closed, and I could not find him. I now train in BJJ in a better place, and I am on the verge of earning a blue belt. I am sure that the wrestling I learned helped, and best of all, no belt is needed, and I can just focus on the techniques.

Before I received real training, I walked into a belt school and asked the “instructor” if they taught headbutts, knees and elbows? And he said “No, because those moves are way to lethal”. No joke. Feel bad for the other students there that were paying their hard earned money in order to get ripped off.

My friend is a black belt in Red Dragon Karate, Kung Fu and Judo. He got a brutal butt kicking at a bar by a dude who was a big brute. My friend’s kicks bounced off him like a nerf football. The fight ended up on the ground and my friend tried an arm bar but to no avail. The guy literally pulled my friend up off the ground with his arm that my friend was trying to submit. My friend probably would’ve won the fight if he had the element of surprise. However, they agreed to go outside and square off against each other. My friend had to get stitches and call in sick for a week. I stopped hanging out with him because he kept putting my life in danger. I go out to have fun, not to fight.

I'm a "1.5" Dan in WT TKD. In general I agree, particularly for kids.. the belt system is a way to keep them going and parents are literally paying for a Black Belt when they sign up. I think adults take it a lot more seriously... particularly since we have to fight through a lot more injuries. We also try to get the most out of the program since we know the cost of NOT being able to defend ourselves. The forms, kicks and expectations also get more challenging the higher rank in Dan you go. We do have to demonstrate proficiency. Some other arts such as BJJ have more combat induced qualifications, and to say you are Golden Gloves in Boxing means something too. All Masters are also not created equal, there are some however that I know which I would absolutely not want to face in true combat.

I know I'm late on this topic but it may make sense to come up with a system that actually has a scorecard system. Each category, such as competition, coaching, analysis, technique, tenure, etc could have an individual score and people leveled up in that way. I know it sounds like a combination of Boy Scout badges and RPG stats but I think this could serve as an improved yet imperfect way to be clear about people's abilities AND give well defined goals to keep them motivated.

Based on my experience I think they’re great or even necessary for kids, but not so much for adults

Personally I do like the reward system that belts give but I do agree with all the points you have made. Personally I think some of the problem is the media perception of black belts being badasses. I do wonder whether a system like the scout badges would work better, while there are levels they don't inform hierarchy and there are also specific badges based on what you did to achieve that level.

At my bjj gym, my coach said that no one is guaranteed a black belt or any belt in his class. You have to, not only make enough classes, but also show improvement and a certain level of understanding and execution of technique to get another rank.

or you could pull and Elvis and buy the instructor a Cadillac. I do love this video. I both love and hate the belt system, I have met people who have done nothing but obsess over belt collection and people who shrug it off. Coming from small town BC we've had instructors come and go. And the first clubs I belonged to were small independent clubs. Belt tests were free and up to the integrity of the instructor. Then a national level group came in CSKA, This was the first time I had been charged for a belt test. An examiner came from a big center and told us whether we deserved a belt or not. Suddenly politics became more important than the school for my remaining couple years I never got past my green belt, ( I was a green belt for a number of years before then I think in total I was a green belt for 6 yrs.) After that club folded a TKD club came in for a couple years, I don't care about styles I just like to go train and do as I please . That was my first exposure to the " double testing that is common locally for some clubs . 35 bucks for each belt level you want to test for . ( justified by saying that we can only come by to test you 2 or 3 times a year. ) But when you barely pass your first belt level and do even worse on your next level how do you justify the higher belt awarded. Now as a practicing falconer I fully understand the positive reinforcement model of training . That is how we train our hawks and falcons. And it works on people. But what put me off belt training the most was the guy that comes to the club saying how he has all these black belts in different Karate systems. Oh wait most of these systems use the same Kata, sometime indistinguishable from each other so what's the point. Now I do like the belts for as you say positive reinforcement, a goal to work for and helping students to know who to watch ( to some point ) A few years ago mostly due to injury though politics had a lot to do with it to I walked away from formal Judo training with my brown belt. I was talking to my my first karate instructor and we got to talking about belt ranks and how I didn't really want to spend the 500 buts or more to test for my Judo black belt anyway , He said to me to get a blank certificate he would fill it in and promote me to black belt . He said that he felt that when combining what I learned over the year qualified me in his eyes as a black belt. Some years later I haven't done it. His words mean more than any piece of paper or cloth. OH and the other thing that pissed me off was one club I dropped in on was words from one of the students that the instructor often threatened to strip someone of their belt rank for actions that would go against the club. But how does stripping a belt change anything , because the knowledge is still there? this just always bothers me. The biggest knock I get from other instructors is my wearing of my white belt to their clubs. I tell them I'm not trying to make a fool of anyone, but I don't want to unduly influence their students with my different forms and that it would be impolite to just walk in and claim a belt rank from a system that might have different criteria. Sorry for the long read but I have way to many opinions on this subject.

I agree with what you're saying. So it falls to the black belts to do what they ask everyone else to do and check our egos at the door as well. If someone else is better at something than I am, I'll ask them to teach it to you. I don't compete against many of my students but I'm very clear that it has nothing to do with me be "so deadly" that it's not safe for them. It's because I'm old and fragile, and they're amazing athletes who I can't even serve as a warm-up for anymore. I'm good at what I'm good at, and I'm fine not being good at everything. As anyone senior, we have to accept what we're good at and what we aren't.

I only wore three belts my whole early training life, white, brown, black, which symbolized work and sweat as did the color of my gi from white to black. Now recognized as the grandfather in my system I still only wear a black belt.

I’m not gon hold u Ima blue belt in bjj and that validation definitely helps me keep going buuuuuut it also / should represent a certain level of skill so I feel like it’s both, it can be a distraction and a dishonest business move but if done properly I can be motivation and a proper recognition of skill and achievements which I think is ok as long as the achievement is earned

I’ve heard stories of sensei’s only pushing the belt system so that the student can get feedback on their techniques. I also have heard about getting the new belt can almost be a participatory award in some dojos The mma dojo I go to has some people who compete locally (and do fairly respectable from what I can tell) and I’ve heard more than once from the older fellas there - I’d be willing to put one of our blue belts vs some of these other dojo’s black belts (speaking about other local dojos). Now I’m all about having a basic level of pride and even about real practice and possibly competing just to gauge your own ability - but I didn’t join my dojo to compete competitive mma or to get into bar fight and win with some trick. So I often think to myself - these people act like Netflix’s Cobra Kai is real life 😂