Left Mormonism 30 years ago, but will always have a heart for Mormons. Have seen many James White debates through the years & this one seems like a discussion between old friends. James & Alma interact with honesty, sincerity & respect.

I pray Mr. Allred will come to the true Christ. He seems like a nice man

Dr. James White is demonstrating that the LDS religion has a fundamentally different 'Jesus' than does historically orthodox Christianity (both Catholic and Protestant).

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

This is the first time I’ve gotten clarity on these differing ideas. Shoutout to both of these men for actually having brains to use, ears to listen, and mouths to speak.

The differences in belief are vast. Mormonism teaches heresy. They deny Sola Scriptura, monotheism, grace alone etc... The differences are a big deal.

"i tell my class half of what i say is true and you have to decide what that is " - alma, as kind and benevolant as a man he is, that statement alone shows a lack of theological doctrinal concern. the ideology of mormonism is slowly falling apart, and i can see alot of people who believe in its standards of doctorine, and esoteric doctorine are starting to finally see how corrupt it is..

This is such a good discussion, compared with some of the more heated discussions I've seen, this one exemplifies respect and was genuinely informative. You can see James (and indeed Alma), here, does not want to score points, but also does very precisely and firmly stand for what the bible says. Very helpful.

before me there was no god formed neither shall there be after me. how would i handle this scripture?

Dr. White, well done

I love lds people but im sorry it's so obviously a fallacy trying the nail down lds doctrine is like trying to nail jello to a wall they take such a simple and beautiful gospel and just complicate it and muddy it up I pray for the lds people that they would gain the eyes to see and the ears to hear and come to the true gospel and the saving faith of Christ I speak from experience just how much their teachings can confuse and make you feel lost I was raised lds in provo Utah right by byu in the heart of it and am so greatful to have found the biblical gospel and Christ inspite of their and sorry to put it bluntly lies

oh for crying out loud Mormons. Just admit that you have a separate religion and be done with it. There is no point to these discussions if this is not admitted.

Can we just appreciate that there’s an overhead projector behind Dr. White? Some of you won’t automatically know what that is xF

This Mormon strikes you as a nice ol' fella, but - man, the piles of horse manure some people will embrace to keep their little thing going is, quite frankly, utterly incredible. James has that toughness in debates and his opponents rarely leave the podium unshaken, but here he stayed civil - even friendly, though exposing, of course, the truth.

As soon as Allred said, “we don’t see the scriptures the same way you do,” at about 36 minutes, the debate really ended. That answered the question about whether Mormon beliefs are truly biblical.

LDS wow that guy danced around everything he should be a tap dancer... You have to believe in Joseph Smith JS not Jesus Christ JC a cult... Forgive them they no not what they do..🙌🙏💔💖👆

Unfortunate for Mormons but the actual bottom line is they have totally rejected Christ and the Scriptures...the Word of God, and, created their own religion.

Lots of "floating" decimal points. In other words, this is what "they" said but it's not cannon.

Watching Alma Allred is like watching Faucci on the the stand lying about emails, funding and whatnot. At least he isnt as bad as Kwaku making up quotes from books hes never read.

I think it would be helpful to point out that there is no definition of official doctrine that can pass its own test for officiality. Alma gives a definition of what's official doctrine of the church, but what Alma says is not official doctrine of the church.

Five minute opening statement where the guy didn't even defend some of his starting comments? Yikes.

No the Mormon Jesus is different the biblical Jesus never went to the Americas to preach to the native Americans

Bringing Bart Erhman was a low blow, James could’ve bring someone that has rebelled as a mormon as well. Yet he took the high road

OMG. He might as well not be a Mormon. He knows full well that you can't just pick and choose what you want to believe and still be a Mormon.

In the Mormon mind, as long as God is a man of flesh and bones, all the laws and ordinances of the Bible and Mormonism is viewed as being attainable. Until the Holy Spirit transforms their mind to think otherwise, the conversation either goes nowhere (except to plant seeds) or it ends up a bit frustrating.

Is there a book on how to witness to Mormons?

As a former mormon i can say... not quite.

1:33:43 funny. Here is a part of an article from 11/15/22. SALT LAKE CITY (AP) - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said Tuesday it would back proposed federal legislation to safeguard same-sex marriages, marking the latest show of support for the measure from conservative-leaning groups.

Is there a single Mormon on the planet with the guts to say they speak for the Mormon Church? I have never seen one debate where they don't begin by spending ten minutes distancing themselves from the LDS...It's as if they know they're going to have to admit their beliefs are untenable but don't want to get backlash from other Mormons.

21:48 well biblically speaking everytime they went after different gods YAHWEH was very angry with them. Of course they worshipped other gods, why are heretical jews your standard and not scripture?

“So there are multiple ways through Mormonism that you could appropriately understand who [Jesus] is?” “Absolutely” Ok - it’s a hard no for me big dog.

No.

The constant misrepresentation of the Doctrine of Jesus Chris of Latter-day Saints is always funny to me. It's been this way for over 200 years. The same arguments have been made for over 200 years. How strange that Mr. White insists that the doctrine has changed, because the arguments against the church have remained pretty consistent.

Lmao when the heretic brings up Bart ehrman

No, Mormonism is not biblical, they believe Jesus is created, but he is all eternal and divine. They believe Jesus and God are exalted men gods. They are not Christians!!

as a lifetime member who's seen almost every doctrine change either somewhat or completely, i find the fact that polygamy is still alive and well in a doctrinal way abhorrent.just like the scripture that says a "persons skin color will be white and delightsome if they become righteous", has become an embarrassment and has been changed i look forward to the day that the sin of polygamy will also be denounced.i dont think it will ever happen though because almost all the adult males would leave the church.

Alma is just as the pharisees and scribes, who do not know God and therefore can not hear His word! His wickedness suppresses the Truth.

“We believe everything and much more” that’s a lie you don’t believe in the bible at all. You teach completely different things about Jesus. It’s insulting to Christ :(

No it’s not

55:29 jaw dropping stupidity, so just Jesus is just whatever you want him to be according to the LDS.

Man I have a hard time having patience with james white..I will tell you this that I know that a baby can grow up and become an adult. We can grow up and become like our Heavenly Father. I am only one and the Father of my children that does not mean that there cannot be more fathers. The same is true with our Heavenly Father. He is only one and and the Father of our spirit that does not mean that there cannot be more fathers in heaven to. Is thee really any limit to space? .it is so easy to understand for me .

Is Jesus of evangelical christians the Jesus of the Bible?

Mr. Allred is the first Mormon who I have heard admit that Mormons believe in many gods. Christians believe there is only One God.

I appreciate fully how two men of greatly different religious beliefs can discuss the topic of their beliefs in a peaceful and constructive manner. It would be such a blessing to the world if this was always the norm.

this is the reason I quit mormonism.....

I applaud White's tactfulness. I would have brought up how ridiculous the Joe Smith / gold plates story is. The God of the Bible was constantly directly in contact with his people from (at least) creation to the apostles. Why would there be an 1800 year gap of silence before the "true" gospel was discovered?

The discussion didn't get spicy until the end when they began to talk about the atonement lol.

I'm very pleased to see that the Mormon was willing to take part in this debate. I pray there are more like this and even debates with the JWs.

Mr. Allred mentions that Luke described the "atonement" in the garden. There was no atonement in the OT where an animal was not killed or where an animal sweat blood as an atonement.

Mormonism today is very different from the Mormonism I researched back in the 80's however their tactic of being disingenuous and obfuscating the facts about their own doctrine remains exactly the same. Alma may be a nice guy but he uses the same method I have found many of their missionaries use... maybe that's because he teaches them how to do that. James White hits the nail on the head and keeps going after the same method Alma is using and he is right to do so because it exposes their dishonesty in dealing with outsiders. With Mormonism it always comes down to definition of the central Christian doctrines (what do we mean and what do they mean by redemption, grace, salvation and more specifically the nature, character and person of God. At this point they are arguing semantics. James had him trapped when he asked Alma if their God was eternal; Alma avoided one of their central beliefs that as man is God once was as God is man shall become. In essence the Mormon god was once a man who obtained godhood Alma fudged it at this one point even trying to deny that was a central tenant of their belief system. This exposes them every time Well done James White.

Thanks for posting! Shows quite clear that Mormons pick and choose what they want to believe. Bruce R. McConkie and Brigham Young would've disagreed with Mr. Allred.

This is a great debate. Thanks Aaron S. for posting it. Lord Bless, BH

Mr. Alfred says "We don't go out and say 'What you believe is wrong.'" But according to Joseph Smith's _History,_ all other churches are wrong, and all their creeds are an abomination to God, and all of their members are corrupt (History 1:19). All I know is they told me my baptism was invalid.

Masterful job Dr. White.

This was a great dialog! I was disappointed that I could not attend myself. As a graduate of the University of Utah, I also appreciated his humorous jabs at BYU (although it's all in good fun; no serious criticism was meant by him or myself).

Judging from Mr. Allred's opening remarks, poor guy just really didn't want to be there at all.

This was one of the most wonderful dialogues I've ever been blessed to observe. James White never fails to produce meaningful and learned moments from his works. Just want to note some interesting things that I think really brought out the issue with this dialogue. Firstly, I think James handled himself superbly. I was raised on the basic concepts of logic (A cannot be non-A) and one could say the foundation for all my thinking has been the Law of Non-Contradiction, and so I've taken that basic concept and applied it virtually everything. Therefore whenever I hear, from any context, someone begin to use terminology that allows relativism or "it could possibly be this or possibly that" red flags go up for me. That's a sign of weakness, and the potential for corrosive problems to enter into ideas or concepts, and I think that's what has happened with Mormonism. Of course, it had to happen. If you don't have a solid foundation of truth, you don't really have any choice but to one way or another, go down the road of subjectivism that ends up destroying your entire system. One thing I don't see a whole lot of people talking about is how Dr. White quickly presented problems of consistency with Dr. Allred's argumentation against the Bible's reliability. I don't think Allred recognized what he was doing at about the 30-minute mark and how his initial argument would backfire on himself. When Allred brought up naturalistic sources as arguments against the Bible (not to refute it, but to demonstrate it's not a complete revelation) and Bart Ehrman I was quickly beginning to think (and I'm glad James brought it up) that if Allred was going to use those methods against the Bible, then they must also be valid for the Book of Mormon, and they would equally do serious damage to it. But Allred wouldn't allow that, and so essentially what you have from him is a double standard: you can use Ehrman and naturalistic epistemology on the Bible but not on the Book of Mormon. I don't think that was Allred's intention, but most people don't really know how to think presuppositionally, and so he didn't really realize what he was doing. Eventually, White got Allred to admit that when it comes to understanding Scripture, Ehrman was ignorant and didn't understand it, then we can dismiss Ehrman and his works on both the Book of Mormon and Bible and he essentially refuted himself. Again, I don't think he noticed that, but that's what happened, and that's why the short burst of laughter from the audience. Which is it? Are we going to allow Ehrman presuppositions or not? If yes, then it does damage to the Bible and the Book of Mormon. You can't use Ehrman selectively--either his material is genuine or it's not. So I thought that was really well-done for White to catch that and demonstrate that Allred was using essentially a double-standard. Great discussion, and really brought out some amazing things and the problems with Mormonism today.

That was a great conversation. Appreciate both viewpoints. Although only agree with one.

1:09:39 Allred: "We don't go out and say, 'What you believe is wrong.' That is not the premise of our missionary effort." SAY WHAT??!!?? ":My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that ALL WERE WRONG-and which I should join.I was answered that I must join none of them, for THEY WERE ALL WRONG...." --Joseph Smith-History 1:18-19a (emphasis added)

This discussion demonstrates what Dr. White pointed out at the beginning. Even after over 1 hour and 40 minutes, the parameters for what would be considered Mormon doctrinal positions about the godhead that differentiates from evangelical Christianity were never solidly established. Personal interpretations seems to be more and more acceptable than dogma in these days. Mr. Allred was very careful not to say, "This is the official position of the Mormon church." Instead, he mentioned a number of times what he personally believed without establishing the reliability of the authoritative source(s) for his beliefs. However, truth is not interpretive. My own perceptions about truth doesn't change truth. But yielding to truth can change my perceptions. Either Jesus was always the eternal God, or He had a beginning like the JW's Michael. Both cannot be true. Neither can the Jesus of evangelical Christianity and the Jesus of Mormonism both be true. One can save, the other can't.

Allred says part of the Atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane because Luke says Jesus "bled from every pore." Excuse me, Luke NEVER says anything about Jesus bleeding from every pore: " And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." (Lk 22:44). In fact if you know the Greek, Jesus didn't bleed at all in the Garden (compare that with what Hebrews 9:22 says, "without the shedding of blood there is no atonement." Luke only says his sweat was "as it were" NOT "it was." In other words the drops of sweat came down as hard as great drops of blood would have. There is a Greek word for sweating blood, αιματοϋδρίωση which Luke (a physician who would be familiar with the term and had the word in Koine available to him) does not use, but rather he uses αἷμα, a medical term for ordinary watery sweat. If Jesus bled in the Garden, Luke would certainly be the first to tell us by the use of the correct term. But Allred's assertion that Jesus "bled from every pore" is NOWHERE. Jesus supposed "atonement" in the Garden is another falsehood concocted by the Latter-day Saint in an attempt to destroy the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

this was one of the most interesting debates I've seen in awhile James White did an exceptional job of trying to nail Jell-O to a wall. I found the Mormon apologist to be extremely hard to nail down as far as what he actually believed and the actual teachings of the LDS Church. if I had been under him asking the same questions not only would I have been discouraged in my faith but I would have been more confused than when I was at non-believer. it was very hard to track what he was saying when James White ask him pointed questions. if he has some serious standing as an apologist in the LDS church then that church is in very big trouble

I used to be mormon then woke up but they taught us Jesus is our elder brother and jesus and Lucifer are brothers. Lol

So we would have to abandon certainty to be Mormon....

I thought I knew what Mormon doctrine was but after watching this I'm left a little bit confused. It seems to me like a development has happened over the years.

I just left the Mormon church and it was the best thing I ever did, they are so wrong

It's the "and much more," which he speaks after 1:50, that is of concern.

Without the Bible, Mormonism could not exist. All that's really happened is that the Bible has been picked over to create something new.

Bible - Jesus was God who became a man (but remains God.) Mormons - Jesus was a man who through his obedience was rewarded to become a god (among many, many gods the Mormons believe exist.)

Our God is NOT the God of confusion, but this guy Alma in this video, is. In and out of "doctrine" and "scriptures", you can choose to believe this or that about Mormonism. My gosh, such devisiveness and fluidness of the Mormon "religion". "Choose the parts you like and reject what you don't". Uuuugh! I just want to scream at him! If a prophet is a prophet, you don't HAVE to "cannonize" what he says and some will be cannonized and some not, as proved later to be false. We were given the test for false prophets, which the Mormons do NOT use, they just throw it aside in order to make Mormonism "fit" and stay, "true". Ouch!

It's not the same Jesus.

Is a good thing he was joking about voting Bill Clinton before things hit the fan in 2017

1:14:38 I think I would have taken him to task on that one. You can totally believe that some Spirit impregnated a human being, yet, you have a problem with said Virgin still being a Virgin after birth? Is he not aware of the many Miracles (let alone the creation of the universe) that has been done?! He get's hung up on that one thing?! weird.

Alma is right on the mark. In mormonism today, you can believe anything you want and be a mormon with one exception. You still have to send in your money. LOL

The Mormon gentleman is very confusing and seems to be very confused himself.

The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak as been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the matters of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (Church News, June 20, 1998, p70) Gordon B Hinckley We Look to Christ 2002 General Conference April

Masterful job Alma Allred