Is the Latter-day Saint religion a CULT?! Ep. 119

  Рет қаралды 15,134

Saints Unscripted

Saints Unscripted

3 жыл бұрын

“Cult” in the New World Encyclopedia: bit.ly/3wzdd7r
“Do Latter-day Saints belong to a cult?” by Jeff Lindsay: bit.ly/3g3MFph
Methodist author Andrew Tevington responds to the question, “Is Mormonism a cult, as is widely taught in some circles?”: bit.ly/3s12aQZ
“Why No One Should Ever Use the Word ‘Cult,’” by Guy Harrison in Psychology Today: bit.ly/3sZkT0p
Transcript/additional notes: bit.ly/3oci4Yk
Notes:
-One common list of characteristics used by critics to argue that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a cult is Steven Hassan’s BITE Model of Authoritarian Control. The model describes “the specific methods that cults use to recruit and maintain control over people.”
The “B” stands for Behavior Control. “I” for Information Control. “T” for Thought Control. And “E” for Emotional Control. According to his website: “Destructive mind control can be determined when the overall effect of these four components promotes dependency and obedience to some leader or cause; it is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present.
“Like many techniques, it is not inherently good or evil. If mind control techniques are used to empower an individual to have more choice, and authority for their life remains within themselves, the effects can be beneficial. ... Mind control becomes destructive when it undermines a person’s ability to think and act independently.”
As expressed in this video, the problem is that pretty much any religion is going to check off many of the boxes on this list. It seems to me quite the challenge to label our faith as a cult without doing the same thing to Christ’s early church, or pretty much any existing faith. Isn’t the goal of all of Christianity to promote a certain sense of “dependency and obedience” to God? And the fact that “it is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present” leaves the question of who does and does not meet a minimum standard open to interpretation. There is no minimum standard of boxes that need to be “checked.” Thus, all one must do to label any out-group a dangerous cult is draw a few parallels and voila!
It’s extremely difficult for our Christian friends to apply the label “cult” to Latter-day Saints without creating a very noticeable double-standard. Source for quotes: bit.ly/3cW0YKf
From letter by George Albert Smith: “I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.”
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Пікірлер: 531
@cumomsandcureloms
@cumomsandcureloms Жыл бұрын
Any argument that we are a cult can only be a circular argument
@whatsup3270
@whatsup3270 3 жыл бұрын
Cult -> benefits leader Religion -> benefits followers
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
That makes sense.
@whatsup3270
@whatsup3270 3 жыл бұрын
@@jayakron3076 and what would those sacrifices be? fyi Joseph's wives were interviewed I think it was a court proceeding, what they said was pretty shocking, and I would say self explaining. But more important many cults use a standard formula in which the members live off the welfare system. They work for the mission which in service, but the sale of all goods and services go to the leader. And often the other motivator, yes that is sex, gets involved. Now I don't want involved but once they start to groom children, well its time to get involved. Look up Tony Alamo, Warren Jeffs, and David Koresh and see if it fits
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
@@jayakron3076 no one is getting rich in our church with donations. Most General Authorities have money they earned and saved from when they worked their 9-5 jobs, before becoming G.A.'s. Many of those televangelists are billionaires. Kenneth Copeland is supposedly worth almost $800,000,000! Yes, that's eight hundred million dollars.
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
@@lindalds Lower level clergy are not paid. High church officials get six figures, plus perks. And because someone was brave enough to break the secret about a year ago, we now know that there is over 100 Billion dollars of wealth in just the investments arm of the church. That doesn't count real estate holdings or church owned for-profit businesses etc. Scientology raises a lot of eyebrows with 2-3 Billion total wealth. LDS church likely has 100 times that in total. Church authorities are not happy that people know how much wealth is in one arm of the church.
@whatsup3270
@whatsup3270 3 жыл бұрын
@@jayakron3076 again "what would those sacrifices be?" ( that Joseph made ) In virtually every type of sex crime some offender has argued consent which is the opposite of coercion. In these cases we deal with consent through grooming. In at least two cases it was 14 year olds that had to out wit the Prophet and their FATHERs ! Grooming to develop consent isn't the same as consenting adults. But please tell me of Joseph's losses, or David Koresh's losses or Tony Alamo's losses
@digzonsega917
@digzonsega917 4 ай бұрын
That Joseph smith line was pretty cold ngl “i teach them correct principles and they govern themselve”😮‍💨
@luisandrade5500
@luisandrade5500 3 жыл бұрын
I been going to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint for almost a year and I never got a negative feeling about it and yes I every religion that start is always considered to be a cult
@anthonynettleton8346
@anthonynettleton8346 3 жыл бұрын
Have u been baptised yet as I can tell you its an amazing feeling and its so peaceful
@luisandrade5500
@luisandrade5500 3 жыл бұрын
@@anthonynettleton8346 yes I have back in mid July of last year
@cantorjohannes442
@cantorjohannes442 3 жыл бұрын
@@luisandrade5500 congratulations
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
Sounds great. Sometime if you're curious to test the waters though, try saying something even mildly critical of the highest leader's direction, and see what happens to the atmosphere. I know what would happen in my environment. But maybe you are actually in a safe environment. That would be cool. Safe people are angels!
@michiganabigail
@michiganabigail 3 жыл бұрын
@@leem3299 if people get upset when you express your opinion, I’m ashamed that they’re representing the church for you. I know I’m ashamed of the times in my life when I’ve been less than accepting of other people’s opinions. Fortunately, in my case, I can blame it on “the follies of youth,” not that I’m so much older now. I still sometimes make those mistakes.
@renee-oy1xb
@renee-oy1xb Жыл бұрын
just want to say, the outro music is amazing and fills me with serotonin
@sbaby-np5hy
@sbaby-np5hy 3 жыл бұрын
The rule that one person said about your children not being able to have non-member friends is completely false some people do believe that yes but you will find that in any religion that I'm Pentecostal or I'm Baptist or I'm Catholic my children cannot have friends that are not of the same religion that I am yes some people who are of the LDS Faith do believe that their children cannot have non-member friends but that is not doctrine and my child can absolutely have non-member friends there is no shame or blame in that. Like I said it is not doctrine. And if and or when my child has nonmember friends and they tried to tell him no LDS isn't the way you should be you should be Baptist or you should be Catholic because that's the way he can make up his own mind if he's old if and when he's old enough and other people trying to say things guess what it's a free country they can believe how they want to believe there's no shame or blame in that but is from my house we will serve the Lord being LDS
@Silarias
@Silarias 3 жыл бұрын
I've been an active member of the church all my life, and most my close friends growing up were either inactive or not members. They were decent girls, and we respected each other :)
@DannyAGray
@DannyAGray 3 жыл бұрын
2:38 of course not green jello... it is, in fact, funeral potatoes.
@TaylorYorgason
@TaylorYorgason 3 жыл бұрын
Sign me up for brainwashing class.
@anthonynettleton8346
@anthonynettleton8346 3 жыл бұрын
Haha what's this.. I am a member but live in UK 🇬🇧
@michiganabigail
@michiganabigail 3 жыл бұрын
@@anthonynettleton8346 people make fun of us for eating jello, especially (for some reason) green jello. We also have funerary services when someone dies, and we usually serve a lunch after, and members of the ward bring food to share. A lot of people tend to bring potatoes, so we call them “funeral potatoes.”
@TaylorYorgason
@TaylorYorgason 3 жыл бұрын
@@michiganabigail Okay, but you're underselling it. Funeral potatoes are way more than just any old ordinary potatoes at a funeral service! ;) Imagine a deep, hot, creamy dish of pure delight and warmth. The potatoes are shredded (or chopped) into perfectly satisfactory bite size portions, and mixed into creamy soup, shredded cheddar or parmesan cheese, sour cream, and then topped with a mouthwatering, buttery, crust of corn flakes - or crushed potato chips, depending on your liking. A single bite will fill your soul and cause that you never hunger again, save for more funeral potatoes because I could probably eat a whole dish of it myself. I believe it to be a delicacy of the gods, and I'm pretty sure the recipe belongs in the Doctrine and Covenants.
@antyrak7905
@antyrak7905 3 жыл бұрын
I like calling the church, the cult of Jesus Christ
@michiganabigail
@michiganabigail 3 жыл бұрын
That’s a cult I could get behind.
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
Catchy
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
For a second, I thought maybe Jesus would be offended. But then I remembered, he prayed for his enemies while they tortured him to death. "Cult", or "Mormon", or neglecting to say his name has no chance of offending him. Sounds to me like the only things that might offend him are neglecting the hungry, sick, outcast and suffering around us. Hoarding wealth and then continuing to expect more. Sorry if I got too heavy. Your comment was light and witty.
@antyrak7905
@antyrak7905 3 жыл бұрын
@@leem3299 hahah don't worry about it, your comment is mostly appreciated
@searchingforeverywhere3972
@searchingforeverywhere3972 2 жыл бұрын
I love this too much and now have a new fear of saying this while talking to Mormons in a work environment
@kassidyj97
@kassidyj97 3 жыл бұрын
Love this!! And the dancing President Nelson had me crying 😂😂😂
@latter-daysaintbatman2679
@latter-daysaintbatman2679 3 жыл бұрын
Ikr.
@manofculture467
@manofculture467 3 жыл бұрын
Same here! I lost it!
@karenadams7252
@karenadams7252 3 жыл бұрын
I'm so blessed to be a part of this cult. It has blessed me and my family over and over again. If you would like some blessings, come join us!
@Hala-ataa
@Hala-ataa 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianmccutcheon3205 how many wives did Solomon have?
@Hala-ataa
@Hala-ataa 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianmccutcheon3205 how many other men (even older than Joseph) married younger women in the 1830s?
@Hala-ataa
@Hala-ataa 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianmccutcheon3205 How many of those already married did he actually marry? How many was he only sealed to as a family? How many of those married women did not desire to be sealed to their husbands nor those husbands to those wives?
@Hala-ataa
@Hala-ataa 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianmccutcheon3205 what is the direct quote from Joseph Smith that there are people on the moon? Was it a first, second, or third hand account? And if you can find a second or first hand account, tell me. Have you been to the moon? Have you examined it? Do you know what he could have been implying when he supposedly said it? See, you bash people with specious accusations but will not ask the questions necessary to truly understand. It’s intellectually laziness. Not wisdom or even intellect.
@briannaponce259
@briannaponce259 Жыл бұрын
Brainwashed
@CitrusArchitect
@CitrusArchitect 3 жыл бұрын
Well argued, and entertaining as always. I hope people stumble upon this and learn something new!
@HelloThere-xx1ct
@HelloThere-xx1ct 3 жыл бұрын
What do you think was argued in this video? Very good, noble, family orientated religious organizations can still be cults. A “cult” is a way of describing an organization that exerts control over its members. All religious organizations can be evaluated as cults on a scale based on the amount of control they exert over their members. When we do this the LDS Church will always be evaluated as higher up the cult scale than nearly any other large Christian religion. By any measure the JWs and the LDS are about tied for the spot of “largest Christian cult”. Again cult is not a derogatory term. The term “cult” describes organizations that exert control over their members. If you don’t want to “be in a cult” then stop participating in groups that influence you to do things you wouldn’t do on your own. So if you find yourself wearing special garments all the time that you have been told by the organization are essential to wear in order to get a reward you may be in some level be in a by cult.
@whatsup3270
@whatsup3270 3 жыл бұрын
@@HelloThere-xx1ct simply wrong, religion which includes the LDS don't "control" their members of course the term "control" is a slippery term also. But religions teach a belief and lifestyle. Following those teachings and lifestyles is optional and that option separates followers and non-followers. Of course "cults" can claim the same but the true test is simply who benefits. Who benefits from monogamy, honesty, trust worth actions, and divine presents? ( is it the leader or the follower? ( here is a hint, I never gave the Pope a dime) )
@CitrusArchitect
@CitrusArchitect 3 жыл бұрын
@@HelloThere-xx1ct I belong to this church, and when people tell me I belong to a cult it just makes me sad because it means they don't understand it. This is a Christian religion, I believe in Christ, and if it interests you, I'd encourage you to learn more and decide for yourself whether it's true or not! Don't take my word for it, or this KZfaq channel. Actually read the Book of Mormon and ask God if it's a true record of ancient scripture. And if not, that's fine! Just be kind and tolerant to faiths you don't agree with. :)
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
@@HelloThere-xx1ct first, no one controls me, but me. Second, I know of nothing that the church encourages me to do that I wouldn't do on my own. I find temple garments to be very comfortable, especially compared to not wearing them. If I don't want to wear them, I don't wear them.
@HelloThere-xx1ct
@HelloThere-xx1ct 3 жыл бұрын
@@whatsup3270 M8 the LDS Church is one of the most wealthy organizations in the country... They teach their members the "belief and lifestyle" that they need to give the Church 10% of their money in order to achieve the highest level of heaven.
@latter-daysaintbatman2679
@latter-daysaintbatman2679 3 жыл бұрын
It's not a cult. When you hear the term *Barbarians* Romans: *Where WHERE WHERE?!*
@Dragonmancer1
@Dragonmancer1 3 жыл бұрын
A cult ?!? That's news to me . Says this guy with some sarcasm !
@beng8565
@beng8565 2 жыл бұрын
It would have helped your cause if you just came out and said, "Yes it is a cult, per Merriam-Webster, but the fact that I adhere as best as i can says a lot about it." Bests to you, I'll keep my naturally endowed liberty and freewill.
@DannyAGray
@DannyAGray Жыл бұрын
Ben, is it not freewill and liberty to *choose* to adhere to one's religion? Your statement makes it sound like the value you place on your "liberty and freewill" is borderline anarchistic, but I assume that you choose to adhere to the laws of your local municipality, county, state and country. Is choosing to adhere to the laws and practices of one's religion really any different than choosing to not be a criminal by violating man's laws? One might argue that the United States (or any other country) is its own cult.
@AmericanwrCymraeg
@AmericanwrCymraeg 4 ай бұрын
That wasn't Jesus in John 1. It was the Apostle Philip.
@charlemagnetheFranks
@charlemagnetheFranks 3 жыл бұрын
I want that Russell m Nelson gif!
@manofculture467
@manofculture467 3 жыл бұрын
Same
@MarcieNielsen
@MarcieNielsen 3 жыл бұрын
*Please don't eat bats 🤣
@six1nyne
@six1nyne 3 жыл бұрын
The end yoooooooo! Yall made a choice, but im not gonna lie it scared me a lil.😩
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
We're awfully scary people ;).
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
I get where you're coming from. I'm not scared of the people who make content on this channel - I actually have a lot of warm feelings for them - and that means something coming from someone with my church related experiences. Other church related people and tactics do spook me though.
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
@@leem3299 yeah you'll always find a mixed bag in any faith tradition. People will be people.
@kaylanigriffin3404
@kaylanigriffin3404 3 жыл бұрын
If the church is a cult then everything’s a cult, because everything around us is trying to influence us using methods of thought-control. Robert Lifton’s 8 point criteria for thought-reform is an interesting read. I think an important future conversation members should try to tackle next is making sure we are using ethical methods of influence on each other…trying to stear clear of anything fear-based or guilt-driven or publicly shame-marking.
@stevenneeley1089
@stevenneeley1089 3 жыл бұрын
I'm not a member but most of my immediate and extended family are. I REALLY hope the church does indeed move away from unethical methods of thought control, but recent general conference talks are still rife with them. I was taught to use them in the MTC and as a temple worker. The problem is that the unethical psychological manipulation techniques WORK and you're gonna have a hard time steering away their usage from a self-preserving organization with a long history of employing said methods. I'm skeptical of course, but I truely do want the church to stop acting like a cult.
@PyrrhicPax
@PyrrhicPax 3 жыл бұрын
Wait I love tea. U telling me if I join the LDS I can't drink Tea anymore? This is totally a cult!!! (Just kidding) Why can Mormons not drink tea?
@chaseallen7499
@chaseallen7499 3 жыл бұрын
One of the revelations the church received back during it’s early period was called the Word of Wisdom. In it it talked about things that were and weren’t meant to be eaten, like how it’s okay to eat meat but only sparely, and how tobacco wasn’t meant for the body. It also included not drinking “ Hot drinks” which is interpreted as Tea and Coffee.
@PyrrhicPax
@PyrrhicPax 3 жыл бұрын
@@chaseallen7499 so Cold Tea is ok? lol I can live with that 😅
@chaseallen7499
@chaseallen7499 3 жыл бұрын
@@PyrrhicPax I don’t know the specifics but I don’t cold tea is in line with it. Though I think herbal teas are fine
@savagecabbage138
@savagecabbage138 3 жыл бұрын
@@chaseallen7499 why dont you like gays
@chaseallen7499
@chaseallen7499 3 жыл бұрын
@@savagecabbage138 I don’t hate them. We don’t teach anything about how they are going to hell. It is just that we believe God created marriage to be between a Man and a woman and that it isn’t up to us to change that. But I don’t believe that that should be used as an excuse to bully them.
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
Just thinking how Jesus was the opposite of "cult" or high demand/control leader. And how he illustrated with his life the God he knew. Jesus could have personified the father of the prodigal son any way he wanted. Absolutely no high demand/control leader is going to give his incredibly disrespectful son half the inheritance. Not condemn or lecture or threaten. No attempt to stop his son from listening to the outside world. He cared about the son's heart more than wealth or reputation. Also, one of Jesus' most distinct teachings was love of enemy, and looking to God as the example of such, by making life sustaining sun and rain to fall on the good and evil. Jesus did have sharp words for the powerful on occasion, but those were the high demand/control leaders who were considering killing to silence him. To anyone Jesus had power over, he didn't exercise power over. He didn't require people to prove themselves worthy of his presence. On the contrary, he was often with the outcast, the powerless, the disadvantaged. The ones who were used to condemnation, lecturing, and exclusion by respectable leaders. It's all very amazing and heartwarming to me. Also consider what he said when asked how to have Eternal Life: Matthew 19:16-22. In a nutshell, love others as yourself. Practical, heaven on earth, real. A high demand/control leader would have a lot more to say about how to wear your beard, why you must obey everything else he says and never criticize him, or else you have lost your worthiness. etc. High demand/control leaders often claim authority from a high demand/control God. But is that the God Jesus spent each day of his life showing us?
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
*_He cared about the son's heart more than wealth or reputation._* How does the brother fit into this?
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
@@lindalds @lindalds Interesting question. I do have a thought. The father had two prodigal sons. The way the oldest spoke to his father after his troubled siblings' return was incredibly disrespectful. Understandable because he probably had had about enough of his younger brother at that point (he wasn't like his father), but very disrespectful to his father none the less. The father's response to this treatment? Kindness, acceptance, gentle words of logic. The exchange with the older son was another way for Jesus to masterfully illustrate how valuable we all are to the one Jesus called Father. And the attributes of the true God are displayed clearly. This was a very different idea of God than the Pharisees had from their painstaking and highly diligent study of the scriptures. Fascinating stuff! I absolutely adore Jesus! (And no one has to agree with me. I'm just starting what I find inspiring.)
@freemangriffin4953
@freemangriffin4953 Жыл бұрын
I have heard this - when I told friends and family I was going to an LDS church service I was told to be careful because it is a cult. The one thing I would say that wasn't good for me was being pounced on immediately to study with two missionaries after my very first church service. I am still thinking about how I feel about the community and it was way too soon for anyone to ask me to meet with them to study. I am waiting to see what I think about it after going to some more services (I also went to the Sunday school class - I think it will be something different next week).
@kathrynehiersche1817
@kathrynehiersche1817 Жыл бұрын
How has it gone? Always remember you can tell people to back off a little bit. 90% of the time people don't mean to be really pushy. I don't really know why we do it, I think for me it's like wanting to get everyone into my favorite fandoms. Any chance I get, I will try to get people to ready Percy Jackson or Tamora Pierce. I think we might just get really excited to share what we love with outside people
@MushroomFarmersGuild
@MushroomFarmersGuild Жыл бұрын
I was raised mormon on the east coast and stayed in the church for 26 years. I saw it destroy families, friendships, marriages, and led to the suicide of several of my dear friends. It IS a dangerous cult, and I promise that the longer you stay in it, the more you will see these same effects in your life. The mormon church legally protected the priesthood holder that raped one of my family members and just moved him to a new location. She has a text message from him saying "sorry I raped you" The mormon church is CURRENTLY protecting the child molester that abused my child! The mormon church protects, and was FOUNDED by, pedophiles.
@KimballTho
@KimballTho 3 жыл бұрын
This is a good video, but I don't think it addresses the experiences of people who have actually left the Church and believe it is a cult, only people who have never actually investigated it. There are pockets of the Church where people encounter extremely cult-like conditions that cause them to characterize the Church as inherently cultish. It breaks my heart. I'd love to know what to say to those people.
@rconger384
@rconger384 3 жыл бұрын
Have never seen what you describe after 60 years and dozens of wards.
@KimballTho
@KimballTho 3 жыл бұрын
@@rconger384 Neither have I, but I know of people who have.
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
I think that if they seem to be trying to get you to doubt your faith, ask them why it's so important to them to get you to doubt your faith.
@KimballTho
@KimballTho 3 жыл бұрын
@@lindalds I think you’re missing the point here
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
@@KimballTho wouldn't be the first time.
@christiansaravia7865
@christiansaravia7865 4 ай бұрын
I’m not a member of the Latter Day Saints church I’m a Roman Catholic but I have been told it’s a cult too. But I don’t think you guys are in a cult and I don’t think I’m in a cult. I consider a cult to be abusive and inescapable. Like Jonestown, they weren’t allowed to leave and Jim Jones was the leader and only looked out for himself and was abusive towards his followers. It’s just not the same. Having similar beliefs does not mean immediately a cult imo
@Grey-x2c
@Grey-x2c 9 күн бұрын
Secret handshakes
@hollayevladimiroff131
@hollayevladimiroff131 2 жыл бұрын
The Mormon religion is not Christianity, it is contrary to the bible. You may want to research their history and decide if you think it is a cult. Their beliefs are very different, their pre-existence is one example, they believe Jesus was created and he was not with God from the beginning, they also, have Freemason symbols on their church buildings and in their Temples, the Freemasons practice the occult. They also believe God is an exalted man, God is an eternal glorified spiritual God, not a man. there are many more examples that their religion is far from the Christian religion. Please, do your research before joining this church, you want to put your faith in the REAL God and Jesus Christ.
@garymortensen4392
@garymortensen4392 2 жыл бұрын
Is that a burn on Bill Gates?
@exoticcars2368
@exoticcars2368 2 жыл бұрын
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed Galatians 1:8
@DannyAGray
@DannyAGray Жыл бұрын
But what is the gospel? The gospel we outreach in the LDS faith of that Jesus Christ is our lord and savior who died for our sins, rose again in conquering death, and is our mediator with the Father. That's really the base of it, and that is the base of what the original apostles taught as well.
@annemiker4623
@annemiker4623 3 жыл бұрын
but most of red flags of a cult are similar to what is happening at the church. what about this?
@annemiker4623
@annemiker4623 3 жыл бұрын
not just 3 or 4 things
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
I have attended evangelical/Pentecostal church services, and you talk about brainwashing! And those televangelists are so charismatic, they get millions of dollars out of the poorest people. Even the church I grew up in, while not even close to being evangelical, twice had revival type services with altar calls, and if you didn't go forward and act all crazy, they looked at you like a Satan worshipper or something. So, other Christians calling us a cult is really the pot calling the kettle black. Satan works hardest on those he's losing. What better way to attack than to put Christians against Christians.
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
As per the video, the problem is this: Is our faith a cult in any significant way that could not also be applied to early Christians or Moses and the Israelites? If you want to call our faith a cult, I think it's only fair to be consistent with that usage and extend the label onto every group or religion, past or present, that has these same so-called "red-flags". Otherwise, as per the video, a double-standard is created that looks a lot like just attempting to justify prejudice against Latter-day Saints.
@gordonbarnes7005
@gordonbarnes7005 3 жыл бұрын
Interesting how you claim that there are a whole bunch of red flags, but you fail to actually list any. Probably because what you have are weak examples like "they tell you to have restrictions with your diet," which, if people who say that were consistent, would be a red flag for all competent medical professionals. Or, "They take away your membership if you are actively critical of it," which if you were consistent, would be a red flag for basically every company job. _"Come on! Why can't we criticize and make seemingly damning claims about Wendy's without getting fired? It must be a cult!"_ That may be ridiculous, but it's no different from the "cult" calling that people do against the Church. You have to be consistent.
@annemiker4623
@annemiker4623 3 жыл бұрын
@@gordonbarnes7005 I didn't even try to list any of the red flags hahaha. Although I can try now 1) Following the leaders without doubting 2) Questioning is discouraged 3) Mentality of a closed community thank you for your answer!
@Josh-zm4fx
@Josh-zm4fx Жыл бұрын
as a member i fiind it disrespect full you will pay for this later
@itsHeatherKay
@itsHeatherKay 3 жыл бұрын
Cookies! 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
@Ether-pb5gb
@Ether-pb5gb 2 жыл бұрын
if I am in a cult, I thank God for it. It's funny, most of the people that I have met in person who have condemned me, and told me that I am in a cult, are among the most seemingly miserable people that I have met in my life.
@Ether-pb5gb
@Ether-pb5gb 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianmccutcheon3205 John14:6, great scripture. Brian, are you suggesting that Christians don’t commit suicide? Because my great grandfather, not LDS, but a Christian, walked upstairs after dinner one Halloween evening, and shot himself in the head.
@andreamesser4580
@andreamesser4580 2 жыл бұрын
I think it is a cult, but it’s not a destructive cult. Although my daughters friend (married and 30) just told his parents he didn’t believe in the church anymore, and she told him her love for him is conditional on him going to church (that is destructive cult behavior).
@DannyAGray
@DannyAGray Жыл бұрын
That's a problem if her own character, and it sounds like she's a hag. I don't care who you are; conditioning your love on one's honest search for truth and for God means you didn't love them to begin with.
@chubbuck35
@chubbuck35 3 жыл бұрын
Just study the BITE model and see if it applies to your life.
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
If that BITE thing convicts us as being a cult, then all churches and religions are cults.
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
@@lindalds One of the easiest ways to know if you're in a "cult" is - can you leave with your dignity intact? Or will you be labeled an "apostate", be haunted by fears of things you learned in the church await those who leave, loose friendships in the group, be looked down on and seen as dangerous. No one asks you why you left, because everyone knows former members can't be trusted. Even family relationships suffer greatly. My experience is this sort of stuff happens in this church a lot. Not always the case, but it happens a lot. That being said, I also see the word "cult" more as a way to demonize, to look down on others - not helpful. The terms "high control group" or "high demand group" are more useful. Also, anyone calling your church a cult and treating you badly because of your religion is using cult-like tactics. I gather your experience in the church has been good. Cheers!
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
@@leem3299 I think if someone is going through anything like that, it's in Utah. And NOT with the blessings of the Church.
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
@@lindalds And it might be something one simply doesn't see, until it might happen to them. It's a rude awakening. I hope you continue to have a good experience. Error on the side of compassion though for minorities who suffer. Minimizing stuff that really does happen even outside of Utah, and backed up with quotes from Prophets doesn't help minorities who suffer. But if you simply don't see it that's fine. In a way I hope you never do, even though you will never understand what I've experienced that way, and will continue brushing of very heavy things.
@travisfarnes5783
@travisfarnes5783 3 жыл бұрын
the ending ... bravo 👏 👏
@kyfallon8238
@kyfallon8238 3 жыл бұрын
I definitely use to believe this, and then I read the Book of Mormon, and now am contemplating conversion.
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
Go in with eyes wide open. It's a good experience for some, but not all. And as they said, you can leave - but it's easier to join than leave for sure. Verify whatever information you can though - both the good and bad. Both definitely exist. Wish you well.
@Sunshine-eo2sp
@Sunshine-eo2sp 3 жыл бұрын
That's awesome man, I encourage you to keep reading and praying, God will point you in the right direction.
@utimakasini8432
@utimakasini8432 3 жыл бұрын
What Ky you ain't a member? What the hell you waiting for 😂 the only reason the world hasn't joined is our Father has given Satan all rights to to propagandize as a filter for only those who has a desire to seek God shall overcome the propaganda.
@savagecabbage138
@savagecabbage138 3 жыл бұрын
dont convert the book of mormon has many historical inaccuracies
@Sunshine-eo2sp
@Sunshine-eo2sp 3 жыл бұрын
@@savagecabbage138 correction: perceived anachronisms. Lions were considered anachronistic to the Bible until the 90s. It could take 100s of years, and the place most Latter-day Saint scholars believe the Book of Mormon takes place is heavily under explored, being mesoamerica. To suggest we've discovered everything there is to know is just false.
@Revbone450
@Revbone450 3 жыл бұрын
Two questions then; why were Byron Marchant and Douglas Wallace excommunicated?
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
Who are they?
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 3 жыл бұрын
Only their Stake President knows for sure.
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
@@brettmajeske3525 If I remember correctly, it was because they publicly resisted the ban on black people before such was tolerable by the authorities. They weren't the only two who were excommunicated over that. I don't want to go back to 'the good ol days'. I'm so glad moral improvement has been made. Let's keep it up.
@traveler5973
@traveler5973 2 жыл бұрын
yes we agree, you LDS have alot of rules
@Liberty-LLama
@Liberty-LLama 3 жыл бұрын
I do hear this one a lot. And for the most part I think it is mostly worthless, and pointless to call the church a cult. But it does make me wonder. If the President were to get up tomorrow and ask all the members to do something seemingly wrong. Would you(members) do that thing?
@DannyAGray
@DannyAGray 3 жыл бұрын
I guess it would depend on what the thing is. But in the end, we are a free thinking people with agency. If it were something extreme, I think I'd just laugh it off and take my chances with being punished for it.
@anthonynettleton8346
@anthonynettleton8346 3 жыл бұрын
No as we have been taught to make decisions and also its about having personal revelation but we should also look to the bible and scripture if it goes against that then no don't do it
@Sunshine-eo2sp
@Sunshine-eo2sp 3 жыл бұрын
The spirit testifys of truth, and the fact is President Nelson is very consistent when it comes to teaching true, eternal principles. and yes, the spirit testifying of truth means that the spirit can be felt from an evangelical pastor, or from Pope Francis, it just so happens that Latter-day Saints do not believe that either of those men hold priesthood authority.
@utimakasini8432
@utimakasini8432 3 жыл бұрын
For me everything I hear from general authorities and prophet is filtered through the Holy ghost and you'll be surprised.
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
I think that if it was something very wrong, the other apostles would have a talk with him. Or maybe even the Lord would call him home.
@zelink5715
@zelink5715 Жыл бұрын
Buddhist monks always were the robes but ok
@christiansaravia7865
@christiansaravia7865 4 ай бұрын
So do other religions
@SuperRoby93
@SuperRoby93 3 жыл бұрын
You can't question church leaders, your first rule is obedience, you're constantly blackmailed by your leaders to not have your eternal family unless you pay tithes and offerings regularly and participate to temple ceremonies and church meetings; you are sexually restricted and repressed with the excuse of purity; you've been told what you can eat or drink. You've been told what to wear; and then leaving the church is not so easy for everyone. In a lot of cases young men and women who left have lost every contact with their parents, siblings and friends members of the church.
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
Many have found this to be the case. It's very heavy. It has helped me to hear former members of various high demand groups tell their story. We're not alone, and it's not all in our heads. At the same time, I'm curious to also hear stories of people who have had good experiences in the church. People that would say, "Even if I died and found out it wasn't true, I would still be glad I was a member because of the joy it brought into my life. It helped me feed the hungry, welcome the stranger, care for the poor, etc." If anyone reads this and fits this description, here is an open invitation to share your story. Just to be clear though, I'm not so interested in people saying "Oh yes, it's supposed to be hard and painful, but it will all be worth it someday, because I know it's true." I've heard that plenty.
@victoriacrane4696
@victoriacrane4696 3 жыл бұрын
@@leem3299 Hi. I’m replying because I believe your question was sincere. I’m really glad I’m a member. I deal with depression, and at one point in my life I couldn’t get out of bed. It was completely awful, but I believed I was here for a reason. I believe there was a God and that He loved me. Because of those beliefs I didn’t commit suicide. I had some experiences I can’t explain any other way other than there is a God. After that experience I really wanted to make sure I was worshiping the right God. I believe I am. I’m glad I’m here. Im grateful for my experiences. I can’t say I wouldn’t be disappointed if I found out it was all false, but I can say that I’m here because of my church. I’m here because I believe in God. I’m here because I think I have a purpose. I don’t know if that helped answer your question, but I thought I should share. I hope you have a wonderful day!
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
@@victoriacrane4696 Perfect. Thank you! My spirituality centers on Jesus in the Gospels now, not so much a church, but I deal with anxiety daily (I've found Jesus in the Gospels helps my anxiety). What you said reminded me of a particularly rough period where to get some relief during the night I would repeat to myself, "God loves me. God loves me". Now you made me cry, but also made my day. : )
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
*_You can't question church leaders, your first rule is obedience_* It depends on how you question them. *_you're constantly blackmailed by your leaders to not have your eternal family_* *_you are sexually restricted and repressed with the excuse of purity_* *_you've been told what you can eat or drink. You've been told what to wear; and then leaving the church is not so easy for everyone_* If you don't believe what the church believes, then why would you want to stay? *_In a lot of cases young men and women who left have lost every contact with their parents, siblings and friends members of the church._* That's up to the family and friends, and/or the person who leaves the church. THE CHURCH has nothing to do with that.
@Sunshine-eo2sp
@Sunshine-eo2sp 3 жыл бұрын
False, there's an interview with President Eyring somewhere on the internet when it was his first meeting with the 12, he said they were actively discussing with passion. We are invited to hear what they say, pray about it, and receive direction. False, our first rules are Love God and love your neighbor. False, no one blackmails you with the lack of the blessings of exaltation if you aren't actively going to stuff. I haven't paid tithing in over a year bc of no in person church and haven't been to a single in person thing. My temple recommend is still very much so valid. "Sexual restriction" is completely subjective. In fact, many studies have been done that prove there is a link between being a victim of sexual assault and being sexualy active at a younger age. Sounds like law of chastity is doing something right. You mean like how almost every religion has sacred clothing that they wear? Or how Muslims women don't show as much as their ankle or wrist? Let's see if your consistent and call them a cult for that False, leaving the church is easy, you send a letter. And if you're getting pushback, sounds to me like the spirit is trying to tell you something. There's a consistent trend amongst those young men and women, which I can think of irl examples I have seen in my own ward. They were by far the most disrespectful towards church leaders and everyone around them and had no interest in participating in stuff like youth conference or callings. They also came from homes with parents who didn't do anything for them. That's not the churchs fault, you'll find crappy parents in every religion if you look hard enough. Another consistent stream with all those young men/ women who I know who have left all come from homes who lean towards the democrat party. That is a far more consistent thread with what I have seen when people have left the church.
@senna3
@senna3 3 жыл бұрын
I think that it would have been more appropriate to answer this question with Stephen Hassan's BITE model
@latter-daykit-kat4963
@latter-daykit-kat4963 3 жыл бұрын
I wanna write a thing doing that, because I have everything planned.
@DavidNellTheHarbinger
@DavidNellTheHarbinger 3 жыл бұрын
Lol, you and no other peer reviewed credentialed professional in the field lololol
@cantorjohannes442
@cantorjohannes442 3 жыл бұрын
A bite model doesn’t mean it’s a cult though, like you said it’s just one mans opinion
@DavidNellTheHarbinger
@DavidNellTheHarbinger 3 жыл бұрын
@@cantorjohannes442 Exactamundo, the bite model is trash,
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
@@DavidNellTheHarbinger I just need to know how to explain how this is not "peer reviewed" when antis insist that it is/was. I read all that BITE thing, and don't see how it convicts the LDS church of being a cult. If we are a cult, then all churches and religions are cults, IMHO.
@otaviopmartins
@otaviopmartins 3 жыл бұрын
perfect argument
@Kiahona
@Kiahona 2 жыл бұрын
In my experience some members of the Church of latter-day saints have that cultish personality I guess, especially in the temple. But as I've been looked more into what y'all believe, it becomes increasingly difficult to consider y'all a cult, y'all are by far and removed from like jonestown. Just from what I've experienced
@tpbarron
@tpbarron 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks David, well done I'd say.
@californiahighdesertpreach2261
@californiahighdesertpreach2261 Жыл бұрын
No not a cult but, a " False doctrine" is a false doctrine is a set of ideas or beliefs that are taught or believed to be true.” Biblical doctrine refers to teachings that align with the revealed Word of God, the Bible. False doctrine is any idea that adds to, takes away from, contradicts, or nullifies the doctrine given in God’s Word. For example, any teaching about Jesus that denies His virgin birth is a false doctrine, because it contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture (Matthew 1:18).
@DrakeBlacknight
@DrakeBlacknight Жыл бұрын
That's what the Jews thought of Christian teachings, a contradiction of the law, but if you understand the teachings, youll find that It does not contradicts the law given before, but rather giving a greater law. By your own assumption, Christ came to "add to" the other prophets, and therefore a false teacher preaching false doctrine. The thing is, if God wants to give more of His word, He will, and just like the Jews, you won't notice because you were thinking It contradicts what you have received before. Come and see for yourself if Its the same gospel, same teachings and same Spirit.
@TheRealguyinvideo
@TheRealguyinvideo 9 ай бұрын
The word Cult is so miss used it’s ridiculous
@777johbro
@777johbro 2 жыл бұрын
I love these videos.
@Sunshine-eo2sp
@Sunshine-eo2sp 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianmccutcheon3205 yes Mark Twain did say that. It's funny how that quote applies to you just as much as any group of people.
@brianmccutcheon2471
@brianmccutcheon2471 2 жыл бұрын
@@Sunshine-eo2sp Oh, please: that’s supposed to be a come back
@brianmccutcheon2471
@brianmccutcheon2471 2 жыл бұрын
Please show me in the Bible anything to back up the Book of Mormon? This is not a cookie point war: Where you will spend eternity is at stake here: The Bible says Jesus is the truth the life and the way: Have a look at Mormon history the cover ups the lyes the re writing of the Book of Mormon: It’s all available to you: or you just dig in your heels stick your fingers in your ears and sing some silly song: Mormonism will take you to hell the real hell not the make believe Mormon one: You can not begin to imagine how grieved I am: I’m not angry at brain washed individuals (which I once was) but at the heads who know the truth but will not release it because it will end their monetary gains:
@Sunshine-eo2sp
@Sunshine-eo2sp 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianmccutcheon2471 Dude its not a "comeback" its just a fuller application of Mark Twains words. If we are going to live by that quote, you need to apply it too. The Bible supports the Book of Mormon all over the place: Gen. 49:22-26 Blessing of Joseph Isa 29, JSH 63-65 Sealed book from dust Ps 85:11 Shout from Ground Eze 37:15-17 Stick Scripture John 10:16, 3 Nephi 15:21-24, Mat 15:24Lost Sheep Acts 10:34-35 God is no respecter of persons (God would not lock his blessings to 1 group of people forever) Acts 17:26-27 All Nations can seek Lord Not only the rather direct alluding to that the bible talks about, but even doctrinally they line up too, but the bible has contradictions all over it: Matt 27:5 Hung Himself Acts 1:18 Burst asunder Gen 6:6 God repents Num 23:19 God doesn’t repent Acts 9:7 voice, no man Acts 22:9 Light, no voice Luke 2:4 Bethlehem, City of David 2 Kings 14:20 Jerusalem, city of David Deut 6:5 Love lord thy god Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27 Ancient Gainsayer Attack Luke 24:4 Two angels Matt 28:2 One angel Ex 24:7, Num 21:14, Josh 10:13, 1 Sam 10:25, 1 King 11:41, 1 Chron 29:29, 2 Chron 9:29, 12:15, 20:34, 26:22, 33:19, John 21:25, 1 Cor 5:9, Eph 3:3, Col 4:16, Jude 1:3, Jude 1:14 Lost Books 2 Tim 3:16-17 All scripture is from God 2 Pet 1:20-21 No for private interpretation So even if the Book of Mormon did have disagreements with the bible, it'd be weird for it not to. I have read a decent amount of Latter-day Saint history, I'm not going to claim expertise, but I started reading church history and my faith was shaken, but then I kept reading and then it was strengthened and further affirmed. Reading church history was the most faith promoting thing I have done since going to the temple. And You say "monetary gains" as if The quorum of the first presidency and 12 split the church treasury. All of these guys were at the top of their fields prior to retiring to fulfill the callings and made more than they did as church leaders. In fact, the church is so money hungry, that the official youtube channels that the church owns all have their ads turned off.
@brianmccutcheon2471
@brianmccutcheon2471 2 жыл бұрын
@@Sunshine-eo2sp I’ll go through these scriptures, but if they are like all the rest that have been throw at me, it’ll be twisted rubbish: And by the way I’m not a dude
@dereksimmons1252
@dereksimmons1252 3 жыл бұрын
If you leave the church will you be excommunicated? Will you lose your family? Your business?
@neilcuts5771
@neilcuts5771 3 жыл бұрын
Excommunicated yes ,but loosing your family and business NO!
@dereksimmons1252
@dereksimmons1252 3 жыл бұрын
@@neilcuts5771 I've personally met and heard differently from friends in your church
@michiganabigail
@michiganabigail 3 жыл бұрын
“Leaving the church” is the definition of excommunication. You won’t lose your business, because the church doesn’t run your business. You do. As for family, we don’t want you to lose your family. However, everyone has free will. No one can force you or your family to do anything you and they don’t want to do.
@625Aaron
@625Aaron 3 жыл бұрын
If you take your records out of the church you will be excommunicated, but you can leave your records in if you want. No, you won’t lose your family. Relationships might be awkward, due to heartbreak or other personal matters, but that is not what we’re taught to do. My brother Left the church and my family and other church members haven’t treated him differently. If you feel that the church isn’t for you we won’t hate you for that. No you won’t lose your business. Lol I’ve never heard of anyone losing their business.
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
Re: losing your family. Some ex members will tell you that you will. But they usually come from a multi generational member family, and I have a feeling that when they say "losing their family", it might be because their family is tired of them bad mouthing the church all the time. Just MHO.
@davidfrey5654
@davidfrey5654 3 жыл бұрын
WELL DONE!
@Peedarb
@Peedarb 2 жыл бұрын
Stop it, you know that "the thinking is done for you"… your in a cult
@Hala-ataa
@Hala-ataa 2 жыл бұрын
You’re*
@DannyAGray
@DannyAGray Жыл бұрын
Rofl!! I'm pretty sure that church leaders have nothing to do with my thinking, and if they even knew what things I thought they wouldn't want anything to do with it.
@Peedarb
@Peedarb Жыл бұрын
@@DannyAGray I’m afraid your not being honest with yourself, the general authorities do the the thinking, this was a quote passed around openly for decades, I was there, I know for sure. If you are an active member, then you know that they have the final say.
@DannyAGray
@DannyAGray Жыл бұрын
@@Peedarb um..... I'm pretty sure the lord has the final say, and he sets the standards. Where's your proof of such a document? Let's see it!
@mykingdom7121
@mykingdom7121 3 жыл бұрын
Hno. David y saints unscripted, gracias , excelente explicación 😎
@cabarete2003
@cabarete2003 3 жыл бұрын
"Cult" is the religious equivalent to use of the term "Racist." It is just a generalized term used to disparage a religion taking market share.
@cabarete2003
@cabarete2003 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianmccutcheon3205 Well 1. We read and study the Bible. How about you read the BofM and prove us wrong. 2. Re: John 14:6....The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints (emphasis added).
@cabarete2003
@cabarete2003 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianmccutcheon3205 "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins." 2 Nephi 25:26 Book of Mormon.
@cabarete2003
@cabarete2003 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianmccutcheon3205 1. I’m careful where I cast pearls. 2. The burden of proof is not on The Church of Jesus Christ (the only church to bear his name) so go ahead and kick against the pricks 3. I will stand proud at the great judgment bar about Joseph Smith’s standing as God’s prophet. 4. The early Christians could be considered a cult…so, Im in great company 5. Those who dwell in the glass houses of the feeble and flawed leaders of Catholicism and Protestantism really have no footing to be throwing stones at Joseph Smith.
@cabarete2003
@cabarete2003 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianmccutcheon3205 Fortunately, you are not the proverbial St. Peter at the gates. God has given us the Holy Ghost to determine truth and it is upon the HG that we must rely and not on the flesh. You say you were a member of the Church...you should know that. If you know how it "ticks" then you should know that we study the Old Testament and New Testament for a year each. But for some reason you don't know that. I will take my confirmation of my research from the Holy Ghost over 100 years of your study. I have absolutely no interest in putting up a defense to your accusations. I have no more need to defend the Church than the Sun has to defend that it is bright. Clearly, you have no interest in learning about the Church or you would have done it before leaving (if true that you were a member). Anyone who attended the Church would have HEARD the scriptural backing you pretend to seek. Go to church meetings this week and listen (but you won't do that) The questions you have regarding archeology are a KZfaq/Google search away. And if you are so lazy as to not be able to do that...then what hope is there that you'd actually read articles about evidences found. I feel bad for YOU. The truth is there. Yet you will not seek it out and verify your findings with your Heavenly Father. You would rather worship the Bible. I fear that even if Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ were to tap you on the shoulder and offer instruction...you'd turn it away crying "Sola Scriptura!!! Sola Scriptura!!!" And I get it...the Bible is all you've got. I feel bad for you and all the richness of the Gospel that you are missing out on....all the understanding...all the progression...and most of all...the greater relationship and understanding of who God is. For anyone else reading this, I suggest you start your study of The Church of Jesus Christ with the following scriptures...ALLLL from the Holy Bible: John 14:25, Galatians 5:22-23, James 1:5, Acts 2:38.
@cabarete2003
@cabarete2003 2 жыл бұрын
@@brianmccutcheon3205 Well I am perfectly fine with not answering your questions…interrogations actually…like I said before I don’t throw my pearls before swine. There is a reason that Jesus only taught certain things to his disciples and withheld those things from the skeptics. You are not of the spirit to receive that which is sacred. You don’t think I’ve had these discussions before? You are not interested in how the scriptures vindicate and validate the Church and Joseph Smith. I stand as John the Baptist when he said oh ye generation of vipers to the skeptics of the day. I have nothing to prove to you. You have but to listen and pray about anything the Church might teach you. And you saying I belong to a cult. You can call a zebra a donkey and he won’t debate you…but he is nevertheless a zebra. And as far as the Church being a cult, we learned long ago that by one’s fruits we discover if something is good or bad. I don’t care what differences religious and non-religious folks out there have with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints…they cannot accuse it of bad works. And beyond that…sticks and stones. I don’t care what you call the Church…because I have confirmation and a testimony from the Holy Ghost of its truthfulness. And I am not going to engage in the “saved by grace” argument…as I do not believe you fully understand our views on the topic. Many of our own members don’t. May I suggest you listen to a talk titled “His grace is sufficient” by Brad Wilcox. May I also suggest you take an honest look at the Church. Ask all your questions honestly and without ill will. No member of the Church will reject your questions if you are sincere. And then YOU yourself can take those thoughts to God. I can’t convince you. That’s not how it works. I served a mission…I never converted anyone…I just shared the message…they were converted by the Spirit after their own research and pondering. So in other words...I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU to take an honest look. Put away your bigotries and prejudices and do an honest study. And remember, it is not “Mormonism.” It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
Well done. Can you also see that church leaders do to others by calling them "apostate", exactly what skeptics do by calling the church a "cult". You laid out well why labeling is dehumanizing, and that's bad. Please see the same thing is coming from your church too. There is good inside and outside of the church, and the reverse is also definitely true. We care about truth, right?
@Hamann9631
@Hamann9631 3 жыл бұрын
Lee M. "Apostate" has an objective meaning. It isn't a perjorative or slur. Apostacy is the act of leaving a group. An apostate has done that.
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
@@Hamann9631 I was a bit too slow answering your similar comment on another string. If that doesn't help explain my perspective let me know. Thanks
@Hamann9631
@Hamann9631 3 жыл бұрын
@@leem3299 Terms with clear and objective meanings can be spoken with a negative or positive feeling. That doesn't change the clear meaning of the word. That is what I see is happening when "apostate" is used to imply badness. The word has a clear meaning and people were saying it with strong negative emotions.
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
@@Hamann9631 Technically true, just like the word cult. When you go to technical definitions it doesn't sound nearly as offensive. I personally haven't ever heard "apostate" or "cult" used with positive feeling. Thus my appreciation when people chose words that show mutual respect. To me, "former member" is such a term. No negative or positive bias showing - no disrespect. Perfectly descriptive and works well for me.
@Hamann9631
@Hamann9631 3 жыл бұрын
@@leem3299 "Cult" has multiple definitions in thurough dictionaries. Those definitions include a group which believes thier leader is divine, has a fanatical belief in their leader, and separates themselves from society. Because of the cults like Jim Jones and Charles Manson's, "cult" definitely is a lie (lies are offensive to reasonable people) when used to describe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and The Jehovah's Witnesses.
@Grey-x2c
@Grey-x2c 9 күн бұрын
Obviously
@ronbrewer3493
@ronbrewer3493 2 жыл бұрын
Man you do a great job .I still would love to be on your show program.
@ahh-2-ahh
@ahh-2-ahh 3 жыл бұрын
Nuff said!!!!👌
@awesomeohm
@awesomeohm 3 жыл бұрын
I LOVE THIS! IT PROVES THAT IT IS A CULT!
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
ALL CAPS. EXCITING
@awesomeohm
@awesomeohm 3 жыл бұрын
@@leem3299 ilovethisitprovesthatitisacult
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
Just as every church, denomination, and religion is a cult.
@awesomeohm
@awesomeohm 3 жыл бұрын
@@lindalds not all religions are cults but there are cults in all religions
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
@@awesomeohm Too many people make these exclusionary definitions of "cult" that can describe any church or group that you don't agree with, especially if you want others to fear and hate said group.
@ygggg5676
@ygggg5676 2 жыл бұрын
Just keep your head in the hat like joseph smith, and this cult will make total sense
@Ether-pb5gb
@Ether-pb5gb 2 жыл бұрын
speaking of heads in the hat.......isn't it amazing that he memorized over 20 chapters of Isaiah with his head burried in a dark hat?
@crossingthemountain
@crossingthemountain 3 жыл бұрын
Yes.
@BlueJayBirdSaint
@BlueJayBirdSaint 3 жыл бұрын
The ending part. Lol.. Maybe a little to much for sensitive people.
@icemoney24
@icemoney24 2 жыл бұрын
“you can leave”
@rconger384
@rconger384 3 жыл бұрын
Dancing Gates was no help.
@TheDustinExperience
@TheDustinExperience 3 жыл бұрын
Unfortunately, I'm beginning to think it is.
@DavidNellTheHarbinger
@DavidNellTheHarbinger 3 жыл бұрын
Fortunatley, it is not Unless you believe following Christ as defined by the early Christians is cultish
@TheDustinExperience
@TheDustinExperience 3 жыл бұрын
@@DavidNellTheHarbinger Okay. That's true.
@DavidNellTheHarbinger
@DavidNellTheHarbinger 3 жыл бұрын
@@TheDustinExperience I suggest you rewatch this video, it handles this objection flawlessly, Also, the "bite model" nonsense is not addressed because it is actual nonsense, not peer reviewed,
@TheDustinExperience
@TheDustinExperience 3 жыл бұрын
@@DavidNellTheHarbinger You've got to admit though that some of the things we believe in are kind of far out, even for some members, such as not being able to drink coffee or tea, not wearing or using crosses, baptisms for the dead, etc...
@TheDustinExperience
@TheDustinExperience 3 жыл бұрын
@@DavidNellTheHarbinger Okay. I have no problem with cross necklaces myself, actually. I'm even wearing one right now.
@crystalyork1565
@crystalyork1565 2 жыл бұрын
You've tried religion!!!!, Y knot try Jesus!!!!!
@seans5289
@seans5289 3 жыл бұрын
I usually parallel Joseph Smith and David Koresh
@lindalds
@lindalds 3 жыл бұрын
Why? They are nothing alike.
@John-om3dx
@John-om3dx 3 жыл бұрын
Yes it is.
@andrewstafford123
@andrewstafford123 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah doing this by YOU is a biased opinion. - the Mormon church overall is big, but the “meetings” and groups that are in each cell are small and cult like. Cults are overly secretive and deceptive, much like the modern local Mormon church. - there is a difference between religious tradition and cult like secret nature. Unless you become just like everyone else in said church, you can’t see behind the veil in the Mormon church. That’s what cults do. - A former priest of the Mormon church, who, by the way, was emotionally and spiritually abused all because his wife wouldn’t convert, told me that as a pastor the local Mormon church had detailed files on myself and every business owner and church worker within a 10 to 20 mile radius. That’s what cults do. - I will say that the church of Latter Day Saints is more willing to help their fellow neighbor than almost any other religious denomination on planet earth. I will definitely give you that. But when a so-called religion constantly changes their doctrine every few years just to have more members there’s a problem there. - If you look at the history of itself, it’s all about “revising” the origin stories of the Book of Mormon. In fact, up until the early 80’s people of color couldn’t even be a part of the body….. that’s sketchy. - you sing a song during your celebrations about how a group of early Mormon followers slaughtered an entire group of colonists, and all because they didn’t buy into the religion. This is just a starting off point that BARELY scratches the surface. I’m not saying you can’t be a Mormon; believe what you want, and no one should stop you…… but please don’t try to make the Mormon church come off as innocent and clean- that’s called LYING.
@ReaganWForrest
@ReaganWForrest 2 жыл бұрын
-I don't see how the Mormon church is at all secretive and deceptive in modern local churches. Like you can walk in and nobody will stop you and tell you "You can't be here". Unless of course you were excommunicated (which is a term that is no longer in use). -The Mormon church does have Priests but probably not in the way you think they do. Just a little tidbit of information here. There is sort of a hierarchy in the church starting with Deacons, Teachers, Priests, High Priests, Elders, Bishops, Stake Presidents, The 70, The 12 Apostles, and Lastly The Prophet. At least I am pretty sure this is how it goes. -The information held by the church is actually quite small and not as detailed as you think, and everything they know is information you have given them. Your name, number, email, household email, household number, house address, birth date, parents, and the date you were baptized. Most of this information and who can see it is controlled by you. -The sense of community in the church is held tightly together since the church believes that everyone is a child of God and are spiritual brothers and sisters. And I too am also having a small problem with the inconsistencies with the history before the church was re-established. -Yeah... talk about a dark spot on the churches history. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was not about a refusal to join the church. There was an emigrant wagon train going to California from Arkansas that passed through Cedar City, Utah. Saints in Cedar City were instructed to save grain and water since United State troops were headed that way, and if you know about the history of the church even a little bit you then would know about the tensions between the Saints and the government at that time. Arguments arouse between the emigrants and Saints since the Saints wouldn't sell them any grain. So the emigrants threatened the Saints that they would join the government troops headed that way. The Mayor, militia major, and stake president formulated a plan to attack the wagon train disguised as Native Americans and presented it to the community, militia, and church leaders. Some council members strongly disagreed with him and asked if he had consulted with the, then, president of the church Brigham Young. Since he had not yet, he sent a messenger to Salt Lake City, Utah which was approximately 250 miles away. Too bad that a man underneath him who was also a militia major went ahead and attacked the wagon train for 5 days. Killing 140 adults and leaving only 17 young children. It was two days after this that they had received the letter from Brigham Young that instructed them to let the wagon train to go in peace. I have not been able to find the hymn you said is sung at the beginning of the churches meetings?
@stevenneeley1089
@stevenneeley1089 3 жыл бұрын
I am no longer a member but most of my family still is. I really hope the church can start to move away from unethical methods of thought control, but recent general conference talks are still rife with them. I was taught to use them in the MTC and as a temple worker. The problem is that the unethical psychological manipulation techniques WORK and you're gonna have a hard time steering away their usage from a self-preserving organization with a long history of employing said methods. I'm skeptical of course, but I truely do want the church to stop acting like a psychologically manipulative cult and be a more loving big-tent religion. Also, this video is so rife with logical fallacies that it makes my head spin. You can't decide your own definition of cult and then judge everyone for calling you a cult. A cult uses well-described psychological manipulation methods. The church uses MANY described by Hassan in the BITE model. So do other religions of course, and there are more destructive cults out there than the LDS faith, but in order for the world to stop seeing you as a cult, the church needs to stop doing culty things.
@stevenneeley1089
@stevenneeley1089 3 жыл бұрын
Also I would add that essentially saying "all these other religions are technically cults so it's ok if we are" isn't making the argument you think it is.
@Hamann9631
@Hamann9631 3 жыл бұрын
Steven Neeley. We don't do culty things. We don't worship a mortal human as God. We don't live on comunnes. We don't separate ourselves from the world.
@stevenneeley1089
@stevenneeley1089 3 жыл бұрын
@@Hamann9631 I'm sorry I'm still laughing to myself at the idea that you think you don't do culty things. You wear underwear that you believe protects you from Satan. You believe that you need to know secret handshakes to get you past guardians of heaven (you clearly haven't learned the history that the temple ceremony started as a way for JS to keep his polygamist inner circle under wraps). You stand when "only men" who are prophets and apostles enter the room. Your untrained bishops ask sexually explicit material behind closed doors to teenage girls/boys. You shove the illusory truth effect down each other's throats every fast and testimony meeting with saying how "you just know" how it's all true. You give each other new names in the temple (almost every hardcore cult does this) You teach members that the only reliable source of information about your cult is from the cult's own materials. You monetarily exploit your members. You manipulate members by not sharing the secret covenants of the temple until it's too late and the member is under pressure surrounded by their family. You wear funny clothes in secret temples and do weird monotone chanting and prayer. This is just a short list of the many culty things you do. Don't say you don't do culty things. You do culty things.
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 3 жыл бұрын
Hassan's BITE model isn't an academic definition, he is a therapist not a researcher. David is not creating his own definition, he he using established dictionaries.
@jordannewberry9561
@jordannewberry9561 2 жыл бұрын
@@brettmajeske3525 Who cares if its academic? You don't need a doctorate degree to know that organizations that exert undue influence on people's behavior, information, thoughts, and emotions are bad news.
@brianmccutcheon2471
@brianmccutcheon2471 2 жыл бұрын
This really makes me sick to the core: The truth of your church has always been hidden behind a lovely front window: Jesus said; I am the truth the life and the way, no one comes to the Father but by me: That rules out any and every religion:
@seekingtruthinallthings3969
@seekingtruthinallthings3969 2 жыл бұрын
So you do not follow any religion or go to any church?
@brianmccutcheon2471
@brianmccutcheon2471 2 жыл бұрын
@@seekingtruthinallthings3969 and what has that go to do with the price of fish?
@brianmccutcheon2471
@brianmccutcheon2471 2 жыл бұрын
@@seekingtruthinallthings3969 almost gone why go on? That sounds like a defeated person: I’ll give you some reasons: Life is what you make it: God has given you talents it’s up to you to find them and use them: You are made in the image of God, God doesn’t make junk: You have within you a God given energy to think, sadly most let others do the thinking for them: If you are depressed then find out the reason fix it and move on: Any religion that says that there church is the only true church is a cult: John 14:6: Any church that has secret rituals is a cult, any church that prays and baptises for the dead is a cult: Any church that places any person or book above the Bible is a cult: Your greatest mission in life is to make sure your soul is going to heaven: The devil has come to kill steal and destroy: We walk a narrow road, to heaven: Have you ever read Pilgrims Progress? Don’t throw your eternal soul away on a fairytale made up by a liar:
@inspiringk5191
@inspiringk5191 3 жыл бұрын
God bless you for defending our only true religion!
@longwing2011
@longwing2011 3 жыл бұрын
Well said. Also funny :)
@TheLisafoxblin
@TheLisafoxblin 3 жыл бұрын
This is epic! 😁😆🤣
@vkhiev
@vkhiev 2 жыл бұрын
LDS is definitely a cult
@traveler5973
@traveler5973 2 жыл бұрын
oh yeah!
@DannyAGray
@DannyAGray Жыл бұрын
Ok, your 5 word unspecific comment has convinced me. 🙄
@francescogorbechov4192
@francescogorbechov4192 3 жыл бұрын
Religion is on a spectrum. You have more mainstream religions like the Catholic Church or Protestantism on one side, and Jones town and heavens gate on the other side. The Mormons are somewhere in between. They’re not a full blown cult, but they undeniably have some cult-like aspects
@jonnyhilljackson5788
@jonnyhilljackson5788 2 жыл бұрын
obviously they are
@Topazdemonia
@Topazdemonia 3 жыл бұрын
I wish you would've actually gone throught the BITE model or some other cult "checklist" maybe talk about some things you guys truly have problems with. Also you guys excommunicate former Mormons, don't act like that it doesn't cause a massive rift (that's usually encouraged in some way) in families when members leave.
@anthonynettleton8346
@anthonynettleton8346 3 жыл бұрын
This isn't true as I know as I know family's that have members and non members and there is no thrift between them . To be fair they are probably more close now to some of there friends in the church now than when they were members
@Sunshine-eo2sp
@Sunshine-eo2sp 3 жыл бұрын
yes, people get excommunicated for reasons that every religion would do the same, and in some cases we're more forgiving. A Bishop who steals tithing money is gonna get excomm'd, or someone who has been put on the sex offender list. There was a guy in my mission who was excommed for adultery, and guess what, everyone loved him still and the stake president was his best friend. Yes, some people will shun you for getting excommed, but that happens in every religion. If you are expecting perfect people at church, I hope you expect healthy people at hospitals.
@DavidNellTheHarbinger
@DavidNellTheHarbinger 3 жыл бұрын
Dude, you guys harping on the bite model nonsense have digested the exmo brownies for far too long, try looking at what tje rest of the field of phsycology has to say about the "it bites" model lol #dissapointed
@brookebennett6006
@brookebennett6006 3 жыл бұрын
Excommunicated just means you have your records in the church removed. It’s not like, shunning or something like what the JWs do. It has nothing to do with your families, it just means you’re not part of the church anymore
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
The last half of the video was written with the BITE model in mind, and there should be a note on the BITE model in the description of this video. These videos are meant to be short and informational. Going through Hassan's entire model would have taken a very very long time. As per the video "we could talk about these parallels for hours," but for me what it comes down to is: Is our faith a cult in any significant way that could not also be applied to early Christians or Moses and the Israelites? If people are going to call us a cult based on the BITE model, I hope they're also calling all other organizations that fit the bill (past or present) a cult as well. Otherwise, as per the video, a double-standard is created that looks a lot like just attempting to justify prejudice against Latter-day Saints.
@badkidshowarchive470
@badkidshowarchive470 2 жыл бұрын
copium
@PracticalBibleStudies
@PracticalBibleStudies 3 жыл бұрын
Yes. It is a theological cult, but not necessarily a sociological cult.
@myeyepie
@myeyepie 3 жыл бұрын
Blah blah blah bullies gotta bully
@anthonynettleton8346
@anthonynettleton8346 3 жыл бұрын
Haha no it isn't as we learn about jesus christ. If u read and put the effort in you will learn and it will be personal to you
@davidfrey5654
@davidfrey5654 3 жыл бұрын
Well, if you follow "practical bible studies" that would probably make you a theological cult too.
@PracticalBibleStudies
@PracticalBibleStudies 3 жыл бұрын
@@anthonynettleton8346 Truth isn't bullying.
@gordonbarnes7005
@gordonbarnes7005 3 жыл бұрын
"Theological cult" is an absolutely meaningless term based on double standards. It depends solely on the theology of the person doing the labeling. As such, it is neither objective nor rational.
@Gearhead2008Yeehaw
@Gearhead2008Yeehaw 2 жыл бұрын
Huge cult ! Lost sheep !! Run away !!!
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