Not just Sweden, either. All Nordic Countries use them extensively.

You can also point out that the heat pump in your freezer has no problems working at -18c

But then again, I’m pretty sure 90% of Swedish homes are much better insulated from their inception. Our more temperate climate has led to lazy low housing standards.

@@thelaserhive3368 So if your homes aren't insulated decently then your present heating system must be very inefficient with a lot of heat losses???

@@thelaserhive3368 Doesn't really matter, my 1920s home isn't anywhere near modern standards. My heat loss requirement at about -17C is about double that of what the UK average is at in -3C. Yes, insulation is good for a heat pump to work efficiently, but isn't a factor of whether it works or not. Just comes down to running costs, our electricity is typically only about 20% more expensive than gas (not that we can get gas fired systems), but it does mean that there is really no scenario where a gas boiler would be the better choice over a heat pump.

How much did that cost .

@@rob19632 Probably about 50 years of heating at COP of 1.

💩

The house has been really warm? What on earth did you have before the Heat Pump?

What a collection of weird replies. But I am glad as I get another opportunity to bum about how great heat pumps are. During the start of the cost of living crisis and the recent war in Europe gas prices doubled in a very short period of time … or was it tripled? Anyway our gas prediction for the year was to be very high. As I expect it was for many people in the country. During that time most people I know stopped heating their houses so I expect there were a lot of cold/damp houses. We allowed ourselves heating for a short while each night through the winter but really it was a waste of time. The house was cold and the washing never really dried. Like a lot of people who have been fed constant negative statements about heat pumps I was sceptical of course. I did some research and decided that if I was going to do it needed to check my insulation first. Turned out my house was not too bad other than a few leaky windows which were fixed very easily. I expect a lot of people will be in this position too but we are fed this stream of garbage that says our house will never work with a heat pumps. It’s simply not true. So I got a heat loss calculation and it turned out that I could have got a standard system fitted relatively easily but I went large a bit. I got a new water tank and increased a few radiators at the same time because it was going to have very little impact on the house and the larger radiators did not look bad at all. They were not that expensive really. Also we changed a few ugly ones for rather nice contemporary ones which really did make a few rooms looks a bit better. Again I wonder why I did not do that year an ago. Anyway the key to getting a heat pump is finding an installer you can trust. You need to have a sense that the heat loss calculators are accurate and that the system is right for your house. Long story short the system I installed was great. I now heat the house full time to a very nice standard of heat. We also have solar and battery and this is key to running costs. For the winter the system was about 1/2 the cost of the gas from the year before and we only ran the gas for an hr each day when we have the heat pump on all the time. The COP was around 3 in the winter and now we are in early summer the cop is just under 5. Now it’s summer the house cost me nothing. The solar and exports mean my electricity, car charging, hot water and heating (no need for that much in May time) is costing me literally nothing. My bill for this month will be negative £50 approx. I.e. I am in credit from my exports. I even charged the car today and added 60 miles range from the sun while still charging the battery and heating the hot water. Sorry but this is is much more about the whole package of sustainable tech but we decide that missing out on a couple of nice family holidays was worth the benefit of having a heating system that would last us for years. I would say to anyone thinking of getting a heat pump. Just start by having a look at your insulation, call a few installers and pick one you like. Get a heat loss calculation done and if you can afford it get a few larger radiators as this will make your cop or efficiency much better. The battery really helps to keep costs down as heap pumps can use a lot of energy during the day which is more expensive. Also get a time of use tariff as this helps keep the bills down. I love my system as will I think a lot of other people and over the coming 10-20 years the prices will drop and the old gas boiler will be consigned to the history books where it belongs.

Did you actually watch the video?

OVO are doing a HP tariff of 15p/kWh 24/7. Octopus also have some cheap smart tariffs, the renewables are making themselves felt.

The problem is that renewables have and always will have an intermittency problem. You cannot store the energy to cover it especially as the energy requirement ramps up. Then when you accept that the next issue is the ability to ramp up generation and pretty much the only thing that can do that well is gas fired power stations and the less you use then the more they will charge when you do need them. The grid is a fine balancing act and not just a ring main that you can plug a few windmills in to. You are right that we should get away from the gas price but if we hit it too hard you are going to end up with punitive costs when you do need to fire them up again.

​​@@davideyres955coal fuelled power stations had hundreds of tonnes of coal STOCKPILED. Gas fuelled power stations have big storage TANKS on the network. Solar and wind turbines need the EQUIVALENT - battery energy storage. It's not rocket science. This should be mandated as part of granting planning permission. Madness not to.

Why should the renewable providers be paid less than the gas generators would seem a perverse system.

You can do a terrible job installing one and still get £7500 from the government, so why bother doing a good job? MCS have put us in a total mess, avoid anyone accredited by them - total cowboys.

As long as you avoid the MCS cowboys you should be ok.

Look for someone who is in the HeatGeek list of trained installers and you should not go wrong.

Tradespeople. It's 2024.

@@mev202Hahaha yea. But if you’ve ever work on a building site you will know it’s tradesman. Heat Geek is really exceptional on installation. Couldn’t recommend them more.

No. Because solar doesn't work at night and wind is also unreliable. So if you are happy to have no heating in November when it's dark and foggy it's brilliant.

@@rob19632just as well there are smart tariffs and or batteries that would through the night. I never pay more than 7.5p per kWh

​@@rob19632by then we'll have battery energy storage solutions all over the place. Everything Electric have debunked this BS many times.

@@rob19632 But in general terms the price of electricity will steadily drop over time, regardless of dark and foggy winters. It *IS* likely to go up in price in the short to medium term (10 yrs?) as new infrastructure is added but will drop after that

​@@rob19632 There again we do have the building of the battery farms, charged by renewable, to maintain power as required. In theory, rpt theory we could build battery farms in any old place, old underground wartime facilities, warehouses on brownfield sites, barges on the Thames (other rivers are available), old docklands, middle of nowhere, wherever, then cobble them into local grids. What does muck up the above seems to be political will, or lack of, at a local level.

From Wikipedia: The UK grid "Maximum demand was in 2005/6 at 63 GW (approx.) (81.39% of capacity)". Demand rarely goes above 40GW these days even in the worst days of winter. There is plenty of network capacity, and more is being added and can continue to be added if demand increases. National Grid have made it clear they can cope.

😂 my sons gaming PC takes 350W , TV with sound system another 300… are ppl really that blunt?

@@AdamCiernicki I didn't know every person in the middle of winter runs their PCs, TVs and sound systems continuously .. Day and night (the latter of which, and I hope you're aware of this, facilitates a sum total amount of solar power of exactly 0W). Thanks for enlightening me.

Luckily a lot of adopters are also getting solar and battery storage, so not all the demand will fall to the grid. Equally those changing from storage or other electric heating will reduce their electricity demand. Interesting times. I hope to change to a heat pump solution in the next few years.

How will this combine with increasing numbers of people charging electric vehicles?

Your house is warmer than a gas boiler? I need a citation on that, every heat pump I've seen can barely heat water to 40 degrees celsius. A conventional combi boiler will easily do double that. It might be cheaper to run, but lets not spread lies about the performance.

At -36C for sure have a back up like an electric element to compensate. No heatpump works efficient below 20C. The Mitsubishi heatpump for cold climate is probably the onlyone to push for -25C with 80% efficiency.

@@dragandrag24 yes, if the heat pump is exposed to that temp on the cold side. Our heatpump draws energy from the ventilated air, which is 20-22C, and ejects it much colder to the outside. -10 or colder when working hard. The lost heat in extreme cold is added by the electric heater in the system, but of course a separate air to air heatpump can provide even cheaper heat for the temps above -20C or so, as can a wood burning stove. The proof of the efficiency is indeed the yearly consumption which is amazingly low, as I posted. Well insulated house, triple glacing and internal blinds that can cover the windows and add an extra insulation at night and extreme cold. 50-60 cm rockwool in the ceiling, 37 cm in the angles roof, some 25-30 cm in the walls. Airproof layer inside the insulation.

What triggered me the most was to separation buffer that they showed in one of the setups because it wastes a lot of energy and I hate this energy wasting tech which is only to make it easier for installers, but is completely useless If you have a Well desigend system

The BUFFER TANK mention also annoyed me. If you really want to learn about heat pumps properly go watch a few Heaf Geek videos. Buffer tanks are generally used to fix a poorly designed system.

Aren't heat pumps inverter driven so the turning on and off issue doesn't apply. I'm in Australia and about to get a dual heat pump system (central hot water) installed for 12 flats. They are Japanese Panasonic C02 with a COP up to 6.0

@@ForTheBirbs They are, but they can only modulate so low. It also depends on flow rates and other variables that should be taken into consideration during system design.

Seems that the buffer tank is a mandatory part of the Aira installation 🤔

Thank you. This is so often misunderstood. If I have a poorly insulated house (I do), the heat demand is the same whether I use gas, oil, uranium or electricity through a heat pump. I'm using a heat pump. My house is warm, I'm using 75% less energy (before adjusting for inefficiencies in gas/oil boilers which would make it even more favourable) and already heading on half of grid energy is renewable. Pound for pound, investing in a heat pump reduced my carbon impact much more than insulating my house and the impact is immediate. And yes, my house is warm. Running costs: slightly less than oil. SCoP: just over 4 Installation: 3 years ago, so economics have changed, but with grants available at the time, similar to replacing the oil fired system

If you can only do 1 of the 2 then a heat pump is probably better from an emissions point of view, as you immediately get rid of the emissions from the gas boiler, and the electricity you use to run it will also get greener by the day. The downside is that you will end up with an oversized system if you subsequently improve your insulation, which you should definitely do at some point.

Scandinavia is mostly air-to-air as well, I think. In Norway we didn't bother with gas once we found out those waterfalls we have everywhere are very useful (just like NZ) so homes don't have radiators or gas pipes, but rather went from firewood to electric heating to heat pumps.

New Zealand is a two day flight from the UK .A few Europeans on a Island far away are you surprised? Are the majority of your properties wood build and no radiators like in the UK?

@@foppo101 you don’t need to fly here to know what’s going on lol. Although Robert is just across the ditch during summer 😉 Our new builds are mostly wooden framed with some having metal frames. And no, as I mentioned, radiator based heating is rare outside of commercial buildings

That sounds good - do you mind telling me the make?

How do you get hot water?

@robertp.wainman4094 Yes, I have 2 Fujitsu units, 9k btu upstairs and a 12k btu down, really pleased with the running cost.

@@grahamharrison1323 Many thanks!

​@@Zebsy I'm still using the old immersion heater, not ideal but only costing me about 50p a day

A lot of its because the providers/installers are still fitting heat pumps that are undersized for the home.

So about 18% - how many of those are air to water heat pumps?

My heat pump ices up occasionally and defrosts automatically. Never been cold. Our house is always toasty warm.

Average humidity in Stockolm in November is 88% Average in West Yorkshire 90%. My Heat pump defrosts in literally 1 minute and in the depths of winter does it about once an hr so my home is perfectly warm all winter long.

So, PLEASE insulate and air seal your houses!

@@scottcompany4040 Did you spend any money insulating and draft proofing your house when you installed the heat pump?

the deicing is factored into the capacity of the heat pump, when sizing. So properly sized, there are absolutely no issues with deicing. The only people who have an issue with deicing are those who either have had an improperly sized - or incorrect heat pump installed for their property/climate, or those who don't understand heat pumps.

Have we still got engineers left in the UK? Technical school education is poor.

160 liter drums around your heat pump? Have you had a drink? Do you mean 44 liters.

We don’t need a buffer either. 👍🏼

No well designed system will ever need a buffer tank. Putting one in is an admission of your failure as a heating engineer.

I am willing to bet that insulation is not cost prohibitive when compared to just continuing to heat with whatever system is currently used.

Almost seems obvious. Scottish government for 0% finance loans for eco tech - possibly more useful than a grant.

Perhaps you don't have quite so many politicos sticking their noses into things they don't understand? If so then lucky old you!

Yup. Bleeding the consumer.

An air to air system is what is used in most of the nordics, costing about 1,5k-2k per heat pump.

We are in a 4 bed detached house and a 9kw system is costing £3780 with Octopus. Very similar to the cost of a new combi boiler.

​@@ralpharmsby8040hope you like cold showers 😂

@@ralpharmsby8040 My combi boiler was £1000 Ten year quarantee.So I have £2.780 spare for a few years or more.Iam not going to mess about with a heat pump at 74. Three Bedroom detached house.

That what I understood from watching @HeatGeek also….but there has to be an explanation as to why Aira have it in the heating system ‘package’. Is it to standardise, making their offering applicable to a wider range of homes? I’m curious.

Buffer tanks do not reduce efficiency, don't take everything heatgeek says as gospel. Think of a buffer like a battery, it stops short cycling of the heat pump in lower demand periods and can be used to great affect with time of use tariffs by over heating the buffer when energy is cheap and then using that heat later when it's needed and the energy is more expensive. They are also used on a low volume or fully zoned system to help with defrost cycles.

@@markbarrett2321 HeatGeeks suggest its not necessary in most situations so to install it regardless is just bumping up the price, they generally have the data to back up their claims.

@@bpgfox Bump up the price?

@rtfazeberdee3519 and a battery doesn't help the house with efficiency, but paired with other things like time of use tariffs will aid in lowering bills. The other thing you fail to realise is to get any grants in the UK you must comply with MCS and to comply with MCS you must abide by manufacturers instructions, which if they say you have to have a buffer tank then you have to have one or don't get any grants. So companies are just doing things by the book.

That can be achieved using a 'volumizer' tank plumbed into return feed to HP (one inlet, one outlet used), my 27 litre volumizer tank on my smaller system is there for just that purpose, to provide a body of water for a defrost cycle when needed. A 'buffer' is plumbed as a hydronic balancing unit which allows the HP to circulate water at a flow rate it is happy with, and the heating system can recirculate water at a rate it is happy with (two inlets and two outlets used).

I've the same problem here, the house is stuffed. Also, I need desperately to improve the insulation before a heat pump can be considered, but I can't find a single builder with a good reputation willing to come and do that, they're all WAY too busy. Only dodgy cowboys left who are looking for work.

​@@ianstewart7605 I've decided I'm going to get the loft boarded and shelved with extra insulation underneath. There's a local company I've communicated with today that has very good reviews and does free no obligation, no hassle surveys to quote. I'll get a new hatch and steps up there too, I'll have to employ somebody to help me clear up and get stuff packed away up there. Then I'll get AIRA round to have a look at my situation and see what it involves and how much to get solar and their heat pump. If that all seems too much for me to cope with I'll get Jigsaw and a couple of other infrared companies round to give a quote. Oh and my house is metal framed so I won't be putting insulation in the cavity wall. I have a feeling that may stop me getting the govt grant in which case it will be infrared and solar./battery storage anyway. I checked out Aira's website and they seem to be up and running in this country, I like the sound of their guarantee and aftercare. Then of course there's the windows need replacing or maybe renovating, I wonder if that's cheaper...all this and no money to speak of but it's fun planning! 😅

Do you have a loft or a garage? They can be installed there.

@@egocd no garage. Loft is really small and I'm not sure if could take the weight.

​@@ThaedDavidWorth checking with an installer. Our hot water tank is much smaller in volume than the cold water tank that used to be in the loft.

I have microbore pipe so have been looking to see if I could have a heat pump or not. Reassuringly there are a few people on YT who have heat pumps with microbore that are getting 400%+ COP. One is "James Rattray" in a 1930's house getting 400% COP and there "Upsidedownfork" who's in an early 2000's house. Both guys have done some very detailed breakdowns of what was involved. So it is possible, just depends on the design from what I can gather and it wouldn't put me off changing to a heat pump when the time is right.

Not necessarily. Heatpumps can work with 10mm microbore. If it's 8mm it can be a bit more tricky.

Currently on 440% with our 10mm microbore, but only recently installed and not working at max efficiency yet (it’s only doing hot water right now). In winter, when heating comes on, this will increase. So microbore on its own is not necessarily an issue to high efficiency, just needs good design

How do you know you're getting more efficiency out of it though? Air 2 Water has kit that consumers can use to accurately measure efficiency. As far as I'm aware you can only at best estimate efficiency or rely on technical specs.

@BenIsInSweden Hi, the company that installed the system also installs the air to water heat pumps, and they commented. I can monitor my electricity usage in real time also. Both systems work on the exact same principle, but air to air doesn't have to work as hard as air to water. Think electric kettle or hair dryer, which on gets up to temperature quickest?

@@Beorn. Electricity consumption is only one part of it. Heating up quicker doesn't mean less energy used either. R290 is able to capture more heat than R32, but R290 isn't possible in all but tiny split systems. There are also other factors like A2W having a much larger surface area for dissipating the heat, so can do so at a lower temperature. I have an A2A system with also a multisplit that can do my DHW as well. But whilst it's an efficient system, I wouldn't say an Air 2 Water system at my house would be less efficient.

Which you'd also need to do to get any of the condensing gas or oil boilers to actually condense or run anywhere close to the advertised efficiency. We had the microbore piping ripped out and replaced, installed new radiators and installed a heat pump, removed the boiler and oil tank. Installers were really disappointed because they didn't quite finish in five days. They had one extra morning to finish up the full commissioning of the system. Edit: In my 1860s house with 1980s central heating

@@johnmckay1423 My radiators micro bore piping is 42 years old.Radiators same age.I replaced one radiator in the dining room a tall one with good heat output.Combi boiler new £1000.Radiators are 70c in winter.I probably this year will replace the two radiators in the living room but both are still working fine.I used to drain the system once a year and added protection in the system.Getting to old now at 74 to mess about to much.My brother in the Netherlands has a heat pump underground pipes.It is a brand new house.A small engine room in the dining room where the storage cupboards are.Can't say Iam that impressed.

Agreed. 1000s of new houses going up all over the UK and almost none have solar. Stupid.

In Scotland the “new build heat standard” came into effect on 1st April 2024. It effectively bans C02 emitters from new properties (that includes wood pellet boilers). Some exemptions permitted for emergency heating (wood burners, portable gas fires) in some situations. There’s also the “heat in buildings” bill that has recently closed consultation. That will ban C02 emitters from all existing buildings by 2045 if it goes through in its current form. No having a gas connection = money saved on an underground pipe that doesn’t get put in. Underground works are expensive, indeed they are a significant cost for new build properties. You still need the leccy, sewer, phone line and water pipes though.

@@ralpharmsby8040 Depends on the builder. We have a couple of estates going up. One has solar as standard. The other none. Solar isn't the be all and end all. I think, if you have access to Econ 7 metering, the battery route is far better. Charge at the cheap rate and use during the day/evening. I found my battery capacity wasn't quite enough, so I bought 2 more batteries - I very rarely use the grid on daytime rates now, very minimal. The solar meanwhile has it good/bad days. Its performance is very dependant on the sun popping out.

Even on cloudy days we are making enough to power the house and charge the battery. Different in winter of course. If we actually had a working smart meter we could do as you and charge the battery from the grid at night if necessary. Its been cloudy today but we've generated 11 used 5 and exported 4kWh.

Yes, though your installation will cost substantially more as you won’t have any existing pipework.

@@egocd Consider air-to-air systems. Most retrofitted Scandinavian systems are for obvious cost reasons.

The tired old insulation argument. My insulation in my 1920s home maybe better than the UK's temperatures, but in -18C my heat loss is double that of the average UK home, and mine work just fine.

The lions share of that is switching to low temperature heating, which would reduce gas usage as well. Difference being is it is what heat pumps excel at. Heat pumps already can work with high temperatures as well, just the current energy prices in the UK make it far less attractive, as the heat pump efficiency will be lower.

Unfortunately in UK the cost benefit can’t really be used due to the way Gas is subsidised and electricity isn’t. Also as the guy said the planning permission restrictions need to updated and the ECP’s are also not fit for purpose. I will get a heat pump but now is not the right time in the UK.

It’s a bit of myth that houses need to be new. I’ve got a 50’s terrace and it works great. It’s cut my bills in half, especially when coupled with solar.

There is some truth to this, but the differences in humidity are not enormous. They can still work perfectly fine.

I still get the UK sweet spot of about 3C and 95% humidity, over here and they work fine. A2A over here is mostly due to in the 70s Central (oil) wet systems being ripped out for electric radiators, because of the oil crisis, and electricity being cheap. So A2A is a much more attractive prospect over A2W. A2W is still very much recommended, but for my home, it would come to the tune of over £30K for a retrofit.

The government don't 'actively' discourage A2A installation, in fact they reduced the VAT on them to zero, but that's the only perk. Politicians in general have often assumed they are air conditioning systems that only cool, that includes green politicians like Caroline Lucas. Also the MCS certification system that oversees design and installation doesn't recognise A2A which is another reason why they don't get subsidies. Totally agree it needs an overhaul though.

Countries with an extensive gas grid, such as the UK, the Netherlands and Germany, have historically been slower to adopt heat pumps. Scandinavian countries with very limited gas grids, such as Sweden, Norway and Finland, have among the highest rates of heat pump penetration

How do they cope in coastal areas where there are regular strong winds and salty atmosphere? I get severe corrosion on the metal component of modern upvc window systems after 3-4 years so would not expect them to last long.

Something not quite right there, MCS 020 sound limits are not difficult to achieve, my house has a 60 Amp main fuse, at very worst my HP pulls 2.8kW for a very short period when heating HWC, other than that it can tick away quite happily at 400W 24/7.

Not true re 100 amp. You only need 80 amp and some are OK at 60 apparently.

@@_Dougaldog we have had 5 installers (3 heat geeks) around to quote for a ASHP everyone has required us to get an upgrade to our 60amp fuse to at least 80amps preferably 100amps. Our DNO has a dedicated contact specifically for these upgrades. As for the mcs020 we had one heat pump (7kw Valiant) pass all others failed at 4m from our neighbours house (the new Bosch will likely pass to now but it wasn't available when we tried). We live in a regular semi detached home if we struggle to get permitted development for an installation and needed to fork out for planning permission on top of the huge price to install even after a grant I understand exactly why Britain can't install enough heat pumps

Energy companies in the UK are corrupt hence the hesitation of so many people.Also many cowboys in the UK.We have gas cental heating 8 Radiators and a shower.Run by a gas combi boiler.Radiator temp ove 70 c .Shower is run by the same boiler.

@mrfr87 Seeing Heat Geek mentioned, I thought I'd go and see what sort of money we're talking about. I have an oil combi boiler. Electricity, no gas. Estimated Savings CURRENT PROPOSED Performance info 80% Act 88% 350% Guaranteed Minimum Energy unit rate info 6p oil 24p electric (its actually 28p round here) Annual running costs £780 £720 Annual CO2 at point of use info 2,390 kg 0 kg Savings £60 per year an annualised estimate, based on your system's performance after the upgrade And this after a bill of £12,819 for the install. After grants etc £5,319 to be paid by me. I could buy a lot of oil for that and even have a new boiler installed. Economics of a mad house. Think I'll wait for electricity prices to fall.

lol

Gas? We sell that to Europeans and get rich off it. If you have plenty of electricity, piping gas into a home sounds like a bizarre idea.

My 2012 built house was quoted as £1000 but that's because I need to have a water tank added (combi boiler currently so no tank at all) and 2 radiators replaced, so £500 or less is possible if no changes are needed.

If your house I microbore pipe like 10mm as most 2010 builds are you will require new piping across the whole house & your radiators will require to be roughly three times the size or it WILL NOT WORK

@@nickthegriffin they can do 10mm it's 8mm that has problems now

@@Stephen-Jones "they" 😂 ok how large is your emitter & what is your delta t? What temperature are you flowing & how large is your tank ? I assume you know all this and will also know that plastic pipe is not recommended over copper as copper flows much better and flow @ low temperature is absolutely key. In a typical house with 10mm you would have to be like stated in this video be flowing 70°c and then your efficiency has gone out of the window & will definitely cost you more to run that a gas boiler but they forgot to mention that 😂

@@nickthegriffin "they" being in the context of this thread is Octopus. I've had a heat survey done and was told it's not a problem (only 2 radiators need to be changed due to being a tad smaller). 2 years ago they outright said that 10mm (& smaller) was a no go and like lots of things, tech improves

It was almost believable until I got to "and we are told is just wont work for us because there isnt enough ground source heat stored in the ground for winter use so we might as well just have electric powered heating and we are not going back to storage heaters again." Then I just realised you had been completely misinformed, there is more than enough heat in ground and air (much cheaper)

Yes the noise is my biggest concern. Our neighbours are close. Our houses are small . If one of them has a heat pump running it will be noticeable but if many of them do it will be intrusive and unavoidable. I’m dreading it.

There are benefits for sure, but how will you heat your domestic hot water?

I have two installed with no issues.

​@@egocdwith a free standing air to water immersion heater. Some are a literal direct replacement. I have had mine over 4 years now, already paid for itself. Basically a high quality immersion heater with a heat pump bolted on top, you can also get them that use air from outside or a loft space.

@@egocd For my use i am going to have undersink water heaters , i had the bath removed years ago as no one has baths these days and a shower is much more economical.

@@ForeverNeverwhere1 Have you got Air to Air and if so how are you getting on with it ?