23 minutes of just saying "Hell No." was a brave choice on your part

Gekko mentionned this rather quickly, I think it has a major impact on reactability: If your reaction time is 13 frames and you're trying to react to a 14 frame move, you are actually trying to react to the first frame of the startup. Meaning you need to be able to recognize, from frame 1, what move it is. By the time you recognize what move is coming, then add your reaction time, you end up with probably way more than 14 frames. To sum up: Reactable move startup = Reaction Time + Recognition Time

ah yes. you're right i should lab against elphelt. elphelt, the dlc character. elphelt the character i have to pay to even have my curser on

"it's reactable" Ok but can YOU react to it?

To the people saying that 14 frames is reactable: Youre not that guy pal, trust me, youre not that guy

Fighting game reaction time is also heavily impacted by lag. With games having built in delay, and online adding even more delay, then factoring in the time it takes to act on the reaction, the line for reactablility starts getting very fuzzy. Also things like DPs have a minimum amount of frames needed to do the input, so the line between can and can’t react just fucking vanishes

Now I want "Did you get hit?" to be a fast and short version of "Will it kill?".

In practice, you have to add a few frames to reaction time measurements when you're talking about gaming, because even with heavy accessibility options, and reducing the mental stack of your game, it's still going to take longer than a red and green flashing screen. Not to mention, humans react to brighter colors faster, reaction to Zato on a dark stage will literally decrease your reaction time by about a frame. That's why when you're designing a move to be reactable, it's best to be around 20 frames and with clear audio and visuals (like for example the orange glow on dust)

Gekko going ballistic over a data graph is unbelievably relatable

The craziest thing that I've seen elphelts do is end the initial hit with a grab(grab comes out surprisingly quickly), if they actually mixed with it instead of relying on it I might have been scared.

Main problem is that even if my reaction time is faster than the startup I still have to somehow determine within a couple frames of time whether THIS flippy move where she spins the gun is the overhead or not

Absolutely LOVE the new format, idc if it's temporary I would love to see more candid video essay with your face on em

My own personal reaction time is god awful. So I go into every round with a plan, my instincts, a rhythm and a reminder that it'd be funny if I interrupted exactly one (but not the first) blockstring with a fully charged Call 4B9 (malfunction). Nothing in this game is reactable.

Reject frame data, return to vsf gas leak balance

Nah

Big issue you are wrong about you can't deflect shield it, there's a glitch where her combo is drawn into the shield kind of like Faust's game break (banana peel sucked into deflect shield crashes the game)

So happy you brought up mental stack and options, this was something MoldyBagel mentioned in his video in DBFZ when rollback was being mentioned.

Thanks for talking about this Gekko, I hope more people start recognizing what goes into a move being reactable or not.

While I do not mind seeing your face, I have grown accustomed to the avatar you used and the different poses you used to convey emotions. Either format is fine with me

tbf, part of why it's unreactable is because the startup frames of the overhead are very similar to the low, meaning most people dont have the full 14 frames to react to. afterall, gekko here found a small detail he could use to tell the difference between the 2 moves, and he still didn't do much better than a coin flip.

The high/low isn't necessarily unfuzzyable, but it can be with a delayed low, though then the low loses the advantage of being gapless, so it loses to invincible moves, but an undelayed low will probably catch most motion inputs so... it's another layer of 50/50

Doesn't matter if it's reactable or not cuz that's just the kind of game this is. I-no, bridget, baiken, johnny, and millia all have instant overheads

i paused this video to go make some food and the moment i unpaused it cut to the bit where he asks if you're going to finish your food so now im convinced gekko is clairvoyant

6:58 The answer is that we adapted this trait because being able to react to sounds faster than vision was more useful for surviving against predators.

in tekken, most people consider 19 frames and below unreactable. this is because, in addition to human reaction time and the mental stack, theres also the challenge of executing the correct solution to the opponents attack. one of the things that the space bar test doesnt account for in this context is that most reactions in fighting games are more complicated than pressing a single button. like, despite how simple it might seem, holding downback takes more time and precession than applying pressure to one part of your body in the case of tapping a space bar. this is one of the reasons hitboxes and button based controls may have an advantage over traditional fight sticks. we dont need to get into motion inputs as a source of difficulty for reaction as well, or how the tekken mental stack is bigger than the movelists it's characters have, but as a side note, tekken is obviously animated differently than 2d games, or even most 3d games, so moves are pretty much always less reactable to a fault as well.

As someone who spars against a Potemkin all the time, just guess right.

Love the new video style! Keep geckin king!

Shortly after Elphelt released I saw someone on twitter talking about the Rekka overhead being reactable and had to try it for myself, basically did all the math you did here on my own that day, and ended up finding out that in a vacuum on an offline PC setup, I could react to it at least as well as I could guess. The limit of both human reaction time and my own in fighting games has become a bit of a curiosity to me since then. I ended up looking at other situations in Strive such as TK Badmoon, and Leo backturn. TK Badmoon results were unsurprising, while it might hit on a similar frame to Elphelt rekka P, the animation is in practice significantly more hidden, given that the move comes out 15 frames after you start to jump cancel but only 11 of those frames are Badmoon itself this makes a lot of sense,. On a good day my reaction speed was about 12.5 frames, I couldn't react to an 11 frame move almost ever, there might be someone in the world who is that guy and can react to it atleast in a vacuum, but even that will not hold up with a little mental stack. Leo backturn on the other hand I found more surprising, its an 18 frame move which is what I've always heard is generally considered the fastest a move can be to be practically reactable even in online or console settings, but I found it much harder to actually react to Leo bt.H in a vacuum compared to Elphelt Rekka P. That doesn't mean I felt as if I could never react to it, but I felt a lot more like I didn't even know what I was looking for and like by the time the animation is clear it was typically too late. None of these moves are ones where I relying on reactions would be a good idea for most people, but it's interesting none the less. All this makes me think it would be really cool to see someone break down the level of practically of different mixups in fighting games, maybe even using something like that scale you made near the end of the video.

I like the new format. Gekko has become the J1mmy of the fgc

15:20 that is the music to fight the despair! XD

I remember For Honor had a problem early on with Orochi, where console players physically/mechanically could not swap their guards fast enough to match another player spamming light attacks just from different directions, it was a wild thing to read about LMFAO, I was on PC at the time thankfully.

Was practicing dodging raging strike on reaction in Granblue Rising. With it being ~20 frames it was easy enough to do alone, but when I set the dummy to start doing frame traps and run up throw it became much more difficult to deal with all of the options. And this is without adding in character specific mixups.

That's a great video format ngl

It really isn't feasible to react to stuff faster than 19 frames unless it has a really big telegraph like the orange dust glow tbh, I don't get how anyone that plays fighting games genuinely thinks otherwise

if you watch the video on 2x speed, gekkosquirrel is doing a very urgent peepee dance the entire video

lol, watched the prevous one thinking where tf has gekko been... and now this one. Cheers xD

One other thing I would consider adding to the reactability scale is what the intended or most reliable answer to the move is, baiken's s kabari is plus on block and gives her great presssure, but if you 6P and get tot he upper body invuln frames you can "dodge" the move and punish her if she's close enough, further away you may need a slower move which means reacting faster.

Was the background music when he was ranting about the bell graph the witch music from L4D?

This video was pretty epic. I loved the format. Hope you do a couple T8 streams

Loving the new video style

i think Kliff in +R, one of his attacks just has like 5 frames of just his crouch which reduces the moment you know he does something to like 11-13 frames or something like that where it has unique animation frames, so just seeing him crouch next to you might be a sign that he is already doing an attack

This is a good format

13:55 Yes you are right You can notice that you are going to get hit but, the time your brain takes to: 1 realize that you need to block, 2 send the "signal" to the rest of your body and, 3 really do the block input So just roll a dice in your brain and guess

Good format

im so happy that green screen gekko has returned, even if it was only for a little bit.

I presume this video is fueled by sheer spite.

That's why you have to kinda guess and mash accordingly.

This was way more indepth than i thought 😂

Something important about mental stack, is it's not always about what your opponent can do with a character, it's what they WILL do with a character. They may be able to fool you into thinking they can't or don't know how to do something when in reality they can and will. CONDITIONING BABY! But if you correctly read them or successfully sus out that their genuinely new then that really shortens the size of the stack. Just feel your opponent out where you can, play defensively at first and see what they pull out on you, adapt, and learn your matchup with that player. GGs boyos

Love this style of video. "Guy goes insane for an unreasonable amount of time about one specific topic, getting stuck on the details along the way"

Gekko, buddy. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?!

not the will it kill beginning XD

Big fan of the RocketpoweredMohawk "....................i am calm now" moment

I just mash anti air soon as they start doing flips.

12:29 this is the best Take I’ve ever heard

Ah yes, the part of the video where we hear "Its technically reactable if you both recognize and act within a 3-4 frame window, but how are you going to react when we add 5 more options, all of which are equally likely to occur, and all of which REQUIRE a diffrent reactions." Fighting games are not one dimensional instances strung together. They are a string of potential options that you always need to worry about. In general, at 17 frames, you need to acively be looking for something to block it. At 20ish+ frames, you can react (as in adapt without actively searching for the option) with more and more regularity the higher the frame count gets. Me? Im pretty sure i sit around average. About 17-20 frames if im just going to end out blocking it, and 22+ frames if I need to actively attack to get out of the situation just because of start up.

Elphelt is gonna be smash 4 bayonetta all over again just like in Xrd if arc system works does not do something about this shit.

To save u 23 minutes he says technically yes but actually No u cant so 50% 50% chance

0:59 okay, fans... ALL TOGETHER NOW!

I don’t know if many people will still know about For Honor, but the combat in that game is almost completely Rekka’s and lives off of mixup. So as someone who has 900+ hours in this game. Elphelt’s rekka is baby stuff. Still not reactable though.

If you're really zoned in and your recognition/reaction times are godlike, then yeah, that's reactable, but even then, there's no way that's consistent. A lot of games have overheads with twice that start-up that are considered fair or only maybe a little weak. So I think it's fair to say that it's "Not reactable" for practical purposes if nothing else.

19:19 Oh? ... what are you selling for my Persona? XD

Your number at 13:54 isn't accounting for input delay Input delay effectively acts as an increase on startup frames. Strive has 2-4 frames input delay, you can directly test input delay by recording a video of the screen with the input device in profile in the frame. This can get you really specific for a more accurate test. I've though a lot on reactions in fighting games. I think this is jut in that zone of you CAN react to it, and you're way more likely to if you're like ZONED IN. the chart at 20:00 can be adjusted for this with just + input delay as a base.

I have an avarage of 320 at the green screen thingy while drinking, and I always play while drinking. I ain't reacting to jack shit that's under 23 frames

damn whats the music near the end

I beat a friend without ever using it and without looking at commands, he has been using it for 1 week, nothing more to say.

GEKKO IN THE REAL??? 😱

Something i noticed which was a big help is that the low is more reactable than the high (whether it be because of the animation or the frame data; i haven't read elphelt's frame data), so for me, blocking high and reacting to the low has been a bit better

As a new player, if Elphelt gets me in the corner (and that's not exactly difficult for her) we enter the Mystery Zone where a seemingly endless stream of attacks come out, all of which are faster than my normal response options, and some of them are definitely hitting high or low but god knows which ones are which. Immediately running to forums after getting my ass handed to me 3-0 has informed me that I should be using my punch here, but not only do I have no idea where the tiny gap is in this chain of attacks that seemingly contains no turn for me, but I really don't have anything that can follow up that punch faster than Elphelt can begin her turnless nightmare combo again. It's fkin brutal, I'm not even playing, like, good Elphelts. The combo is apparently easy enough that even down here in the noob leagues people can pull off a passable version of it.

Can you beat Chain Lolipop Low into Overhead? Meterless Reversal Characters (Sol, Ky, Leo, so on) - Yes. 50% Meter Reversal (Ramlethal, Giovanna, Testament, etc) - Yes, D E F I N I T E L Y with Mortobato. 50% Meter for YRC - Yes. 50% Burst (214D) - Kind of; if it's Here I Go! into any rekka mix into Here I Go! then it is way more reactable and can be grabbed from startup, even when in a blockstring. Burst - Fuck You Happy Chaos. (Yes.) Playing Anji and Baiken - Yes, get good at using your parries. Not to mention, Anji has a hard counter and iirc Youzansen is a meterless reversal.

One thing that throws people off about statistics that I feel that should be clarified here. People may hear "the average person" and understand that the vast majority of people are either in that category or under, which may not be true and in fact it isn't true in this case, based on the graph you've shown. The graphic doesn't peak at the absolute average because there's more people above the peak demographic than below it, so the absolute average will land somewhere *after* the peak.. The graph peaks at the amount of people that are in the exact average, you can see that the bell curve of it shows that the vast majority of people are actually around that average - and by a good fluctuation margin - so, *in the case of this statistic*, about 90% of people are not too far from the absolute average, with something very close to *half* (less than half, since the average is slightly after the peak) of these being above the average. Since the "absolute average person" is shy of only 0.82 frames of being able to react to her rekka variants, anyone who is able to react in up to 260 frames (247 + 13) can react to it. This 13 ms difference is also well within the 16 ms of the variation that average people have, which means that even people that are exactly in the average and the people that are *almost* in the average can also do it, but with less consistently. Again, these are not "few" people because they're still standing very high in the bell curve. The people who reach consistency in this reaction time are also still in at the top part of the bell curve, not too far from its peak and still far from the quick decline on the graph. Considering variations of reaction time between multiple test, it looks like most of the people *can* react to it and almost half of the people (I'd say about 45%) can do it with more than 50% consistency, while maybe around 30% of people can do it with a 80%+ consistency rate, because these people are still on the height of the bell curve, so they're really not that rare. But can you compare reacting to a full screen changing from very distinct colors,(with time to prepare before testing it), to reacting to an animated character in a game? At the level of detail and minutes of a second like you did? And should they recognize it from the *first* frame of animation? The answer both is *no*, so scratch what we both said. The screen test example is just what we data scientists call a bad data.

If this game wasn't so expensive in my country i would love to get destroyed by the same move over and over again

a 23 minutes video, for a move that a pink girl can do... MAGNIFICENT!

any move is reactable if you're good enough

My reactions time is around 200ms and 20 frame moves are the most I can react to because I need to see the startup and do the counter

I didn't listen to anything for the first 22 minutes I just wanted to see the goofy rock lady

But i don't wanna go to the laaaaab.

this was my sign to lab against elphelt. 🙏

Shouldn't input lag be factored in as well? You gotta add at least a couple frames to all of these timers to really say a move is "blockable" I think

It's not even a matter of reacting BY 16 frames, you have to make sure you also don't react BEFORE 14 frames and get hit by a low instead.

when the netcode is shitty. is always unreactable

Pretty good video there, mostly because of the stack. If anyone can block Elphelt's overhead it's because the EL player is playing in autopilot.

Context matters

This is why I never react, I just try to read and bait. As my hero once said: "You're never minus if you're just not a bitch." (I am bad at fighting games)

Comment prior to fully watching. MOST 18F overheads are considered unreactable or at least not reactable consistently, this may vary if they have a like a super obvious animation like a flash of light/ an ex flash or if there is a unique sound associated with it, but yeah no, you're not reacting, especially with even any slight frame delay. Humans can react faster to sound and flashes of light, but not identify a move that quick to react properly.

reacting to a red screen becoming a green screen is not the same as reacting to the animations of a character changing to 4 different possibilities + extra options (like dash grab or RC) while being highly stimulated by all the things you can do or have to remember + lag/rollback + sounds that can disturb your thinking.

I feel it is still incredibly hard to react to it because you have to recognize which one it is (mental reaction) react to what you recognize(physically doing it) and then if there is any native lag such as the heavily memed on 6 frames of lag on playstation means most people outside the god reactors are probably not doing more than guessing to block

do you have a discord server?

To anyone saying "this is [X] frames, its reactable, never gonna hit" Dude, im a Q main, and i can hit ppl with the kick grab of SA3.... And that crap is around 25 frames, and you cant cancel into it It depends in simply too much

This is why I only play Bedman against elphelt cause people love to spam projectile and this particular move.

Nah, I'd block

as a elphelt player yes yes yes yes yes it is yes

The first time i went against a elphelt (im super fucking new like only 8 hours played new) i basically felt like i was fighting a pitbull as a toddler.

As faust player I would like to say, no we are screwed if we get her by her once.

Kliffs dust in +r was pretty much unreactable bc half of the wtartup frames were just is crouch

All im saying is nobody should have to buy a character u dont even want to play just to have fun 😭 just to learn how to beat something thats wooping your ass into next week im just saying that shit is foul i shouldn’t have to search a guide or buy someone idgaf abt just to have fun😭😂😂🤷🏾‍♂️

Just to stack another layer of "hell no", all games introduce some level of input delay. For Strive on PC it's ~12-30ms or 1-2 frames, but you're on PS5 you're looking at 4-6 frames. That'd leave that PS5 player needing a ~130ms reaction time, way beyond normal and very nearly beyond the highest reaction time I could find recorded for a professional gamer: 120ms

the human benchmark stuff is done a lot off of monitor and delay and browser

Fighting game players explaining that a move sucks because if you focus your brain, your arm, your eyes, your nose, your penis, and your ears, and use Albert Einstein time dilation by going at 10000 km/h you can see the move coming out 1 frame before it hits you

… you know I thought my reaction time was great. I’m actually very average