One thing I’ve noticed in the modern day church over the decades is the elevating preachers and teachers to a position that they should never be elevated to… Isaiah 2:22 (NIV) - "Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?"

Whatever can be shaken will be shaken. When our foundations are rocked, we get our balance and grip again with God’s help and find the very firm foundation, Yeshua Ha Maschiach

Church, as we have known it is dead. These leaders have had a long time to repent. Training wheels are off. If your trust is in anyone but Jesus...you're cooked. It's time now. Nothing beside Him.

Their celibacy vow was not even biblical. The Bible says that if you want to be a part as a couple for a little bit to pray it’s OK but you need to come back at least one of you be tempted. Good interview, Joel!

Joel always has a way of grounding what feels like chaos, of bringing us back to our foundation, our hope in Christ and the Word. Thank you.

No one had discernment which is amazing considering the 'so-called prophets' that came through the doors of IHOP. The body of Christ is a mess. Sad witness to the world around us.

I hope you can hear my heart here. Joel, I really respect you & your walk with the Lord. As a woman who went through a divorce from someone who had so many secrets & betrayal I hope as you go through this hard journey you will see that many Christian women who’ve gone through divorce have stories like your experience with this situation. We believed, trusted, were gaslighted for years to the point we couldn’t see straight anymore. The celibacy thing……I experienced that it’s a form of sexual abuse. And it’s often connected to p*rn addiction. Imagine years of this kind of manipulation in close proximity. Thx. Praying for you both.

I am a Christian woman, age 77, who has not only lived a long time, but I've seen and done a lot in my almost eight decades. Original sin (the kind we are born with), is only the basis, the launching pad, for continuous, repeated sin, and is inherent in all Christians. Our Catholic Church brothers and sisters practice CONFESSION regularly, even regarding it as a holy sacrament. Truly devout Catholics believe their life as a Christian is on hold, interrupted, with blessings being withheld, in the face of unconfessed sin--they can't partake of the other sacraments or even face death without it formal confession. We should pay attention to David, a man after God's heart, but that heart made him susceptible to continued, repeated sin, so much that he declared that "my sin is ever before me..." (Psalm 51:3). Repentance for each sin is LIFELONG--it never goes away, and is part of being forgiven. We need regular, daily confession AND lifelong repentance as an integral part of our salvation.

Thank you for your wise conversation. The Church needs humiliity and wisdom as a body, much more than shining leaders.

Thank you Joel and Jose ... words of Truth and encouragement.

This is why the Bible says we need to pray for discernment in the last days.

And to Joel’s point about Mike never sharing his weaknesses-I had that same thought just before everything broke out.

@21:00 - this was the initial tell for me months ago in this tragic, horrible situation. "Lawyering up" is indeed the most un-David-like thing to do in the face of a scandal in which one has admitted to, even if in part. It was a massive tell. As someone who has stewarded fiduciary responsibility leading a nonprofit as a board member and now a past president, I have been waiting to hear an intelligent, redemptive conversation from the governance angle. This issue is enormous right now. I appreciate Jose (Philly misses you!) and what he carries. What a bombshell to find one is president of a board, not just a member - and a double-edged sword as well. I hope other board members listen closely to your experience. The ministry board is really the only earthly counterbalance to a derailed or subversive founder/leader. Board members must stand firm, together in future situations as well. Thank you both for being willing to share from the leadership/governance angle in a measured, redemptive manner.

A number of years ago, an associate pastor of our church in NM moved his family to IHOP. I thought it must be amazing to be someplace so spiritual. Now I think Thank You Lord, for preserving us. 🙏

Yes, Jose, the deconstruction is so difficult. My husband and I are still going through it. I know many others are walking the same journey; you are not alone. We do still know Jesus is returning and place our hope in that. When we were baptized in the Spirit and had zero interaction with IHOP, through scripture reading, the Lord began teaching us about His return and Israel. These revelations came to us completely independently of IHOP/Bickle. I am so very thankful for that.

I too sobbed in unbelief and anguish for 4 days. By the grace of God I am through the shock and pain. I am so sorry you were made President of FOTB. It surely was postering for what I believe the Holy Spirit told him he would be exposed. I grieve over this continued exposure of Mike’s betrayal of thousands.

'“The heart is hopelessly dark and deceitful, a puzzle that no one can figure out. But I, God , search the heart and examine the mind. I get to the heart of the human. I get to the root of things. I treat them as they really are, not as they pretend to be.” * * * ' Jeremiah 17:9 MSG

Thank you both! Jesus does care and wants to bring true Justice and restoration and this starts with exactly what you are doing! I was there on full time staff for 11 years and I feel this all very deeply and this is very encouraging and I am healing and detoxing from wrong theology and the abuse I suffered there.

I can say that Joel’s preaching on the end-times gives many of us HOPE. The good news that Jesus Christ will one day come and establish His government on this Earth… and put an end to this nightmare we’re in gives COMFORT.

Very few people walking in transparency like this. Thank you

Bickle needs to Go to Jail!!!' And Repent.

when talking to someone on staff or a student, I used to say, "I'm just in the marketplace." I wasn't as good as them, I had chosen the wrong path. But now, I can't even imagine if I had been closer, if I had been more defined by my place in ihop. it has been so hard for me - even at a distance. praying for those closer to the mess.

Thank you for sharing this. I have stepped away from the whole M.B. fiasco for the past year, so this is helpful. I stopped watching M.B./IHOPKC ministry and conferences over two years before everything blew up. I was tired of seeing M.B. interrupting people on the stage and continually putting himself front and center every service. His continually need to be in the spot light did not feel right. Brother Joel, I appreciate your End Times teaching and the Maranatha Cry. To me, these teachings are a big part of the Gospel, and the Gospel message is incomplete without the hope of redemption of Christ's return. My heart goes out to you both and your families. May God bring healing for these deep hurts.

This was a much needed debrief. I was a little angry with you Joel regarding social media output early on when so many of us were trying to figure out the truth. I'm was intimately experienced with the tentacles of a real narcissist. When the awakening comes, you do question everything. Brokenhearted that love was never real. The manipulation and gaslighting by a bonafide, axis. II, Cluster B personality order malignant narcissist is probably the worst mindfu*k ever. So many who have left IHOP I pray get mental health care. Yes, we need the maranatha message! I recommend "People Of The Lie" by Dr. M. Scott Peck. Sometimes I still cry what happened here.

I feel thankful for Jose sharing his reaction to the news and then his questioning, can so resonate, thanks for sharing. 💛🙏

Jose was chosen because he was amazed to be on the board of FOTB. Looked at Mike as a Father. He was 34. He was made President of the board without being told. He was joined by MB’s son and a staff member. All 🚩

Is there any man we can trust? My heart has been devastated by so many "men of God" failing. And the husband's of many of my friends also have sexual sins. We are all hurt by these betrayals of trust. I hunger and thirst for righteousness.

Thanks Joel! This video brought healing to my soul and strengthened my faith. Keep on sharing the truth

The Charismatic movement after 50 years of nonsense is reaping what was sown. The elevation of man is always bad.

Thank you both for sharing on a painful topic. It made me realize how deeply this kind of betrayal can go and how ugly it is. Thank you so much for sharing ❤

first time making a comment here but excellent conversation thank you both so so much ...Jesus is Lord of all great respect for everything you both spoke about

Amen the return of Jesus is about biblical hope! We have such a glorious hope to look forward to! The eternal restored davidic kingdom and Jesus ruling the world from Jerusalem

The return of Jesus is our hope

After decades, I had my fill of Christian television and in 2016, stopped watching television, listening to radio, eventually gave up my Christian podcast and became the “unchurched” upon realizing that the Church normalized abuse. Don’t expect predators to walk humbly before the Highest that they don’t honestly believe exist.

The statement at the 40 minute mark that Mike Bickle said that he and his wife were celibate wityin their marriage is shocking. I Cor. 7:5 says do not deprive each other. The fact that Mike was engaging in some physical activity with women other than his wife shows the craziness of this statement.

Such secrecy around the board! It seems like this secrecy may have been deliberate in not a good faith way. Large churches/ministries should have training for board members to help them understand their roles and responsibilities.

Thank you...and it is exactly that...I found FAI and want to listen to the Revelation series,but cannot listen to Dalton ...breaks my heart. Please please don't stop teaching us as it is not his message, but the message of the Father - please please consider a study on Rev for us here in Africa via youtube!!

How could this have gone on for so long and kept secret by all involved? I believe there is a much larger problem at IHOP than we've been told.

It seems Mike has struggled with himself and sin ....and then gave up trying to overcome years ago. Everything escalated over the years, and maybe because of denial , he really got into some crazy fantasies. Fantasies about himself and scriptures...visitations and visions and dreams, women etc. Just because a person is charming and funny and intellectual doesn't make them wise or able to discern the things of the Lord rightly. He clearly struggled in most relationships. He was brilliant at hiding his heart . My uneducated guess is that he retreated into a fantasy world of his own creation and everyone saw what he used to wish he really was.

Thank you Both for this courageous and honest report. May Grace and Peace be your’s.!

I love the way you said that about the hope of the Maranatha message. It struck me as strange that Mike sounded really cavalier and almost excited when he would talk about such scary and painful things as multitudes of people dying in judgments.

Tons of respect for these two gentlemen and everybody who’s been brave enough to stand up against that manipulative monster. With as much humility as I can muster, knowing that in one way or another, there’s a good chance I could have a Blindspot just as bad where I could be sucked in, that level of ‘buy-in’ to a secondary doctrine (end time stuff in this case), is a ticking time bomb. I only had my two cents to add to the conversation where we all lovingly warn each other, not to attack. Praying for all the victims here including you two brave brothers of mine.

Thank you guys for doing this, it is a major service to the body. This is aiding in continuing to chip away for me, and I'm sure for others, where we held Mike in our minds and hearts. In watching this and others' comments on the situations, it seems Mike was (hate to say it) flowing in a gnostic bent, described in Colossians 2:18-23, "Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles ('elemental spirits' in ESV) of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations - 'Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,' which all concern things which perish with the using - according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect (severe treatment, ascetism) of the body, but are of NO VALUE AGAINST THE INDULDENCE OF THE FLESH." It's just a description of his ascetic lifestyle, as well as overemphasis on the prophetic, but yet it did not stop him from indulging his flesh/sinful nature. A definite need to check my own heart and mind and a call to fear God. Bless you both.

Man I relate a lot to what Jose was describing around the 40-50 min mark. After spending 5 years on staff but remaining connected to the ministry since 2010 I was thrown in to a bunch of confusion regarding what I believed regarding all those same things. So many of my core theological convictions I’ve put on the “chopping block” and have been evaluating them. Especially the structure of the parachurch house of prayer. The Maranatha message of hope in the age to come has kept me grounded during this time.

Very encouraging conversation, Joel and Jose. thank you and Maranantha!

20 years ago I pleaded for people I knew to get out of Bickle's organization. They thought that the "contemplative meditation" was the "in" thing to do, as taught by MB. The fruit of that practice is the creating of "our very own personal Jesus." That is deception, and is a sign of the age we are in. I am sorry, Joel, for the problems within your own organization, you are typical of when Calvinism is allowed in to pervert the scripture. Calvinism is Gnosticism re-packaged. A great resource: The Foundation of Augustinian Calvinism, by Ken Wilson, D. Phil Also, What Love is This? Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God, by Dave Hunt. Both authors are solid Bible, if you think they are in error, do the research yourself.

Thank you both for this

As you are describing the stories, no one mentions criminal charges?!? He took advantage of a minor under his leadership! He had affairs etc., MB should have NOT have been allowed to preach, complete lack of discernment from IHOPKC! MB should be in jail! Call them out, protect the flock! Instead of focusing on redemption, where is justice for the victims? True leadership ensures justice first before you can start talking about redemption of MB.

Thank you for doing this interview. May we continue to anchor our roots deep in Christ and Christ alone. Come Lord Jesus!

Declaring the whole counsel of God breeds more hope and support for facing life’s day to day challenges while preparing us for our glorious reunion.

A very necessary conversation, examining what I call "the Bickle issue" which has occurred down thru the centuries. This is warfare. A very insightful passage for me has been Daniel 7:25 where the word "shall persecute the saints" would best be understood as "wear out or wear down". A huge and major tactic. Also thank your for how you ended up the conversation - the wrap was spot on regarding "the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior". Guys - keep preaching it! You both (and your teams...) are in my prayers. Greg

grace-filled, hopeful response, anchored in the Maranatha cry!

BTW, in light of details of his weird celibate "marriage," his wife is an enabler. As a woman, I know that SHE KNEW all along that something was seriously amiss with her husband. She tolerated and endorsed his appalling behavior. His sin has even manifest itself, down to the next generation, as I believe one of his sons has followed in his father's footsteps.

I hope you dumped that “therapist”. Any statement that contradicts scripture is not of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is coming again and we won’t be quiet. Maranatha!

Thank you so much for this!

Please talk more about the last point Jose brought up. . .the scary route of deconstruction. So many of us in full time ministry in the “prayer movement” can relate. We need more conversations about that.

Thank you both for this important conversation. Truly needed. I just wanted to say that what you mentioned about Bickle resembles the ways in which a cult leader influences his/her followers. The triggers, doubts, and not wanting to even look at a Bible (or eschatology) during the healing period, are part of needing to unlearn and detoxify, so to speak. I used to belong to a dangerous religious cult for half of my life (I'm now 65)-- a "Christian" cult at that!. I was literally raised in it since I was 16 yrs old. All of what you talk about resemble a cult leader using his personality, the Scriptures, etc, living in utter deception. Bickle lived/s in deception, which is why he is not able to see the enormous damage he has caused and publicity repent. I wouldn't be surprised if he still believes God is on his side. My 33-plus years of personal experience with cultish practices, beliefs, etc has helped me to see Bickle for who he is-- a cult leader who has horribly used others possibly even thinking he was living within God's will. Hubby and I loved Bickle and listened to hours and hours (100s of hours) of his teachings, so we were shattered to hear of his sinful lifestyle. Thankfully, because we live in a totally different continent, we were not as influenced and affected as those in IHOPKC. I can just imagine what you both gone through 😢 ❤

SOOOOO GOOD....MARANATHA...COME LORD JESUS!!!!! Great way to wrap it up....very well done...blessings

I have followed Joel for years and I so appreciate the wisdom of you both. Thank you for this podcast

Yes, the hardest thing in this circumstance is forgiveness. If you don't, then the lack of forgiveness will rot your soul as we have already been forgiven. What is the process to restore these individuals?

I think this says a lot about the church today. There is no discernment anymore. And I mean no disrespect, it could literally happen to anyone at anytime. The devil comes as an angel of light. That’s why it is so very devastating and confusing after the egregious behaviors are exposed. Judgement has begun in the house of God.

Thank-you to you men who stood up for what's right. May God bless you tremendously and may He bring healing to the victim and victims.

So helpful. thank you!!

If the doctrine is wrong, (and IHOP’s doctrine is bad), it leads to idolatry and sexual sin. We don’t elevate leaders or self. That is pride and detestable to God. Please repent and follow the Lord Jesus Christ! I do have mercy and grace for all those who are a part of this. I came out of NAR almost 20 years back. Thankful the Lord showed me my error and grounded me in His word. There will be others, beware!

I want to challenge those of you in ministry to repent and overcome tendencies toward gullibility, and commit to fighting for transparency in the church.

Bless God for you men

My thought and struggles hit the same level as Jose….I questioned every taught messages on end times by any of the teachers I have known …clinging to my God but questioning all manipulation of scriptures even to the origins of the scriptures today!!!! Hard time but we need to question anything man says !!!

"But Yeshua did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all men,"... If Yeshua didn't trust man, KNEW their hearts...why do you suppose we should trust ANYONE?

So glad for your wife ! She was so right what she said ! How disgusting to be in pray and then it cause him to kiss a young single women who isn’t his wife. What kind of pray was it couldn’t have been a Holy one!🤨 I just don’t get that his wife is all ok with this ! And what’s the point of having celibacy in a marriage? Wouldn’t that just lead to more temptation? So he won’t touch his wife but he will just do it with young woman !!what a slap in the face to his wife! !

Jose how and when did you leave the board and did you have to hire a lawyer?

I listened and followed many teachings of Mike’s regularly for many years. I am not put off by eschatological teachings. I am pressed in all the more! I entertained the thought it might not be all true. Then I recall how I myself searched the scriptures diligently. Hard to believe he could teach like he did while in sin.

It must be the hardest thing to open up and let the world know what happened. Even as many may be shocked, we need to understand that any leaders of any ministry is prone to falling as much as the regular guys at the bottom. No one is immune. No ministry is immune. The spiritual forces of evil and the nature of sin is very real and anyone who thinks he stands need to take heed lest he fall. Praying for our leaders is crucial and having a forgiving and compassionate heart though the impact can be strong. Families and marriages is under heavy attack from all angles. We do not war against the flesh but against spiritual wickedness in every sphere around us. We all need to continue in faith and holiness, watch always and pray in Jesus name, Amen.

Honestly, approximately 3-4 years ago I messaged Stephanie and a few other people in FAI to share my concerns about MB😔

I wasn't too familiar with Mike Bickle; however, I feel your pain. I recognize this heart-wrenching emotional roller coaster from Ravi Zacharias'' fall from grace. Somewhere I heard a prophesy (from a credible source) that God will begin to ruthlessly implement 1 Peter 4:17 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God.....(and, we now see it). Time to route out the rotting from within.

I go to a small bible based baptist church i would never go to a mega church. They believe in things like the rapture and things that i do not believe in but you will never find the perfect church and that’s ok because i don’t worship a pastor or teacher because they are just men. I let the Holy Ghost guide me it’s still good to hang with like minded people who believe in the Lord and that’s all that matters.

Questions are always good to ask… probably needed those questions before jumping into this “ ministry. We are to read and study Gods word .

If you pay attention to the patterns of these narcissistic leaders, there’s no doubt in my mind those are the people Jesus was talking about when He said in Matthew 11:12 “From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force”. He obviously wasn’t talking about the invisible kingdom of God because no man can take that by force. He’s speaking about the physical representation of the kingdom of God which is the church. When he said violent men take it by force. He meant they are violent to the soul. They are emotionally and spiritually abusive. They leave the sheep traumatized.

Here is the conclusion of the whole matter: Never put a man on a pedestal because he ultimately falls off!

I doubted Bob Jones’ prophesies.

41:24 - a way to sweep away the confusion is to think of the girl on the receiving end of Mike’s attention as if she is your young daughter or a relative. No confusion then. I also have to say that I have a couple of Mike’s books and plan to keep them on my shelves, and while I am not devastated by this reprehensible moral failure, i am deeply grieved for him, for those who consider themselves his friends, and for the charismatic community at large.

Had Joel ever addressed Daltons behaviour? If anyone knows that, can you write it down? Cuz that s something that my heart needs

The majority of scandals come through NAR leaders

Every word you said was true Joel

Its a familyy thing... In one video from the advocate group, members Dean Briggs and John Chisholm explained that they resigned from IHOPKC leadership in September over another incident: the ministry’s mishandling of an alleged affair between Mike Bickle’s son and the wife of a IHOPKC staffer.

Listening to Jose’s testimony and others it’s starting to sound more and more a mafia. Putting the naive into a legal liability position is a classic mob boss move so the charges don’t stick the boss.

Why in the world would that counselor say to stop teaching about the end times?? Jesus coming back means the restoration of all things and all of us poor, abused, marginalized people really have our hearts set on Him fulfilling all His promises. I could not stand to live on this planet one more day if I didn't know He was coming back. He is the last bit of hope I have.

Those are brutal things to work through, however, you’re dealing with a Jezebel spirit, and that will force you to question everything before you realize what’s happening. Stand strong.

I always appreciated and respected Mike Bickle but like every leader, I was never following him… I’m following Jesus. I pray mercy over Mike and that the Lord would grant him repentance. And I pray that we would return to following Jesus alone and not celebrity leaders. We do need each other, but my faith and spiritual wellbeing come from Christ and not good or bad leaders in the church. Christ alone is the Head!

Really appreciate you unpacking this with a sound mind. I can certainly appreciate how hard The deception of Mike Bickel impacted both of you. I had a pastor who was also my father-in-law that did the same thing. It rocked me for a long time. One question, if you're able to answer. How did you come into the information before anyone else?

Keep a pure heart.

What I never did understand is that Tammy never admits to actually having intercourse, not that making out with a minor is nothing to ignore but may there be complete healing for everyone involved and hurt by all of this news

Breaking Bad had complex characters too. Spouse started a false front business to clean the money. Have we checked those books yet

Never ever ever esteem a man just because he has the gift of imparting the Word. They can spot your admiration/loyalty 10 miles away and will begin the grooming process for future exploitation. Jose's story is so typical of these wolves' modus operandi. Beware. We are to serve and exalt only The One who created us.

Mike’s estimated net worth is between $3-8 million. A closeted prosperity pastor.

I am stunned that people trusted ihop so many false prophecies and word salad vague prophecy turned me off years ago

When I was at IHOP a few years ago I felt an eerie darkness and left after several weeks of confusion and observing competition, pride, shallowness, and hypocrisy in the church members. I was shocked. Yet some people there are great and the 24/7 worship was for the most part lovely. People also need to be aware that Misty Edwards was also just as deceptive as Mike and she is a devil.

I haven't followed this IHOP thing. All I know is that this blew up everyone's Twitter for months on end. Never even heard of this church. Is this some church scandal thing where the lead pastor(s) was exposed for doing stuff he shouldn't have been doing and/or simultaneously exposing how American Christians idolized pastors? Curious to see why this consumed so many people.

Maranatha. Come Lord Jesus.

Yet another reason to focus only on Jesus Christ. This man centered celebrity worship has gotten out of hand in many Christian circles. As an outsider listening to this, it seemed like you elevated a man to heights that were out of control. None of us know what men (women) do behind closed doors. To respect someone you work for or worship with is fine, but to elevate them to unwarranted levels is flat out wrong and borders on idolatry.

It’s SUPER unfortunate that these things turned out to be true about Mike Bickle. He was such a good teacher. To me, Mike’s quality of teaching is up there with Joel, Dalton & Gabe from FAI. He had such a good message about the Church’s role in the end times. It’s just very unfortunate.