So we as a collective we chose hard mode on this reality

And do we have knowledge to conclude how good or evil Numbers 31:17, and Leviticus 25:44, and Samuel 15:15 is?

At least this take offers a bit more context.

Adam and Eve were created naive, designed with desire to eat the fruit, and then punished for doing so when they couldn't have known it was wrong. Receiving a lifelong punishment for one ignorant action, which you were designed with the desire to do, is not a gift of love. Punishing all of Adam and Eve's innocent offspring, for actions they did not do, is not just, nor is it love. You Christians try to stretch this stuff so far to keep your belief.

Yes, desire does seem an underexamined aspect of all this. As well as how desire for suicidal revolt could ever form in heaven in the first place?

@@chrissonofpear1384 It's the foundation of the concept of free will (or, more accurately, the absence of it). People don't often seem to contend with this problem.

Thank you.

And did they know of the stakes? To more than themselves?

Because the one thing He cannot force us to do is to love Him, as love requires choice. Without choice, there is no love. Without choice, we cannot be free, we would be slaves.

@@Drillbitayler It is forced love. Obey or be punished for eternity. What are you talking about. That is the very definition of force. And the fact that he allegedly designed Adam and Eve with the desire to eat the fruit, but not the knowledge that it would be wrong to do so. How could they know it would be wrong if they didn't have the knowledge of right and wrong yet? Then to punish them for the rest of their lives, and all their innocent offspring? That is just? Smh

@@cloudoftime Nothing is forced. That's like saying we are forced not to murder because if we do we will be punished with life in prison. That's not true. That's called consequences of FREE choice. There is so much to unpack here that I cannot address it all, but I believe one of key reasons we may disagree is because of a foundation difference in what we feel we are "owed." For instance, it seems like you believe all human beings are naturally "owed" eternity in heaven, and are only sent to hell if they don't fall in line with God's will. If I'm misrepresenting you, please correct me. In that case, I might tend to agree with you. However, that's not what has happened. We, due to our free nature, are able to make our own choices. And all of us choose sin. All of us. And when we choose sin, the natural consequence is eternity in hell. WE are choosing that. BUT, because God SO LOVED US, he sent his son Jesus down to earth to die for us. By his actions, he was saying, "OVER MY DEAD BODY WILL YOU GO TO HELL!" And yet, many of us will still choose to step over his dead body, and walk straight into hell. Love requires choice. Choice has consequences. It is up to us whether we make good choices or bad choices. WE are the ones who get to decide were we wish to spend eternity. And because of His extreme goodness, God has made spending eternity in heaven unimaginably simple. We don't have to devote our lives to spreading his word, or be perfect, or be his slaves. Quite the opposite. All we must do is ACCEPT his open invitation to heaven. That's it. He loves us THAT much. But will he FORCE us into heaven if we reject his invitation? No. Because he is not a God of force, but a God of extreme love and extreme choice. Hopefully that helps clear this up a little bit?

@@Drillbitayler I guess I can say that it didn’t need to be cleared up, but thank you for engaging. I used to hold your opinion as well, as I was raised Christian. That said, to clear up my position, I do not feel like we are owed anything; it’s more a matter of basic morality. I, nor Adam and Eve (nor anyone else, I would argue), chose to exist in this world, with the nature we are forced to have. From our innate desires, to our pain and suffering, to the work it takes just to survive, we did not choose these things, yet we are forced into this existence. I am not saying we are owed heaven, I am saying it is immoral to make beings suffer against their will. That is essentially the definition of immoral, under almost any framework of morality. So, in the Christian god universe (unless you are an annihilationist), this god created beings with certain forced characteristics, and put them into a situation they did not consent to, and then requires that these people accept a series of unbelievable supernatural stories, in order to avoid eternal suffering, and all this in the light of competing religious claims, in group disagreement, and scriptural flaws. That is not clear and it is not love. If this god is all powerful, then it has the ability to put everyone into a world they would much rather choose to live in, without the suffering of this world that we’re forced to live in. The fact that it forces us to be here, against our desires, is the definition of immoral (if it were true). We do not choose sin, we are born into sin, based on the nature we are forced to have. I did not choose my nature. I did not choose to be part of this. So, we are forced into this situation, and the only way out is to accept unbelievable religious claims. The idea of sin is absurd anyway. So, allegedly, this god created two human beings, who were born innocent (without the knowledge of good and evil), and then the god punished those two beings for following the desire he designed them with (Eve saw that the fruit was good), even though they had no knowledge that disobeying god would be wrong, because he also created them without the knowledge of right and wrong (note: god *telling* Adam he would be punished is not the same as *knowing* that, or why, disobedience is wrong). Not only that, this god cursed all mankind afterward, for the innocent actions of these two people. That is not love. That is not just. All that said, we do not have free choice. Under the “god world” we have been designed with a certain kind of nature. The innate desires we have, we did not choose. Every choice you make is preceded by some desire that you do not choose. Then, to claim that all we have to do is “choose him”, is not a reasonable way to phrase it. Religious belief is vastly predicated on cultural upbringing. There is so much evidence showing that people believe in things for reasons outside of their conscious control. And considering this thing we have to believe is an arrangement of ancient, inconsistent stories, written by various religious people with an agenda to push their beliefs, the idea of this being a simple “choice” is silly. I take issue with the idea that a god would set up a world and beings in such a way that evidence is best arrived at through certain methods, but then the god only offers the “evidence” to believe in him through unreliable sources and methods. There is so much that doesn’t make sense. Most of these scriptural issues just seem to be problems that have arisen as a consequence of ancient people attempting to make up a story about origins, while having unsophisticated philosophical and scientific understanding of people and the world. That is enough for now.

But not fully free? Including of inherited nature you never asked to inherit? Or to say that Numbers and Leviticus do not look like stable morality?

"I (the Sun) form the light and create darkness; I make peace (summer), and create evil (winter). I, the Lord (Sun) do all these things" (v. 7). Having first created peace (summer) and lastly evil (winter), the Lord sends down rain, for with winter the rainy season begins, from the skies that the seed just sown (winter barley/wheat) may germinate and produce a crop, and through it, salvation (v. 8). Winter having fairly set in, the Lord denounces the cold, blustering and rainy days, calling them "potsherds" a word, says Gesenius, "put for anything mean and contemptible," such as winter was ever esteemed by the suffering poor. Nevertheless, as winter is the offspring of summer, the latter is not to be blamed (v. 9). Parents cannot help what their children may be (v. 10). Isa. 47. Lord or God always means the Sun. See Rev. 9.5, where the scorpion (Scorpio) is the leader of winter. Peace (temple of Solomon the sun) is expressed as seven months/signs. The sword (iron) symbols the winter season of five signs/months.

Felix Kio so sorry you are immersed in this superhero story. Incredible how intelligent people allow themselves to believe they deserve eternal agony, just for being born, not matter how exemplary their lives, and then spend their entire lives emotionally flogging themselves while teaching it to simpler minds. Atheists want people to live peacefully without this emotional battering. That is why we are vocal about it. Of course asshole atheists are just as obnoxious as asshole believers.

@@swtbbyjms3806 You live your life by Gods standards and not your own. You borrow your life from scripture and then deny the creator because to accept him would mean to deny yourself. You are an atheist? So you know for a fact there is no God? How was your trip around the cosmos? Were you able to look in every corner? Every dimension? Tell me how the earth was made. And don't tell me it came from chaos and star dust. You have A LOT more faith than I ever could. To believe that everything could design and manufacture itself is the ultimate. I think the intelligent people here are the people that don't believe you could put a bunch of pieces to a watch in a bag and shake the bag for billions of years, and pull out a ticking watch that keeps time. I don't expect to convince someone with your kind of faith though. Its super strong.

@@uncletacosupreme7023 They are talking about the colloquial atheism, simply being that they are without belief in any gods. You believe in an immaterial being that just happens to exist. You still have to substantiate how that being exists. All you have is an argument from ignorance saying "god is eternal". Anyone could just claim that potentiality of nature, as well, based on your lack of substantiation. How does an immaterial being create matter? Explain that magic. We only see consciousness in mortal physical beings, so there is no justification for a conscious, non-physical, eternal being. Your "watch in a bag" example is just an argument from incredulity. The fact that you are amazed by the universe, and don't understand how it works, is not evidence for a god.

And they were punished for life, for doing that, when they couldn't have known better. And all their innocent offspring were punished as well. That's justice.

Very strange. And this after a disloyal angel mysteriously reached Earth too, after being exiled? But where was he being exiled to? Was there multiple options?

@rick mann How Old Are You To Not Even Have The Capacity To Communicate Like A Normal, Oh You Lack And Forgotten How To Communicate Normally.

I believe that The Tree of Life included acceptable knowledge according to GOD and that The Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil included forbidden knowledge, Just my personal belief. I am 36 years old by the way, Black American male.

And did they know that Satan existed? Or of the stakes to more than the two of them?

@@chrissonofpear1384 That story is too vague.

I agree. Why will they not EXPAND it?

@@chrissonofpear1384 not a chance in hell. The whole book is based on Genesis 3 and the "fall of man" Christianity is built on humanity's wretchedness and the need for a saviour. Islam and Judaism aren't far behind.

​@@finitewonder4978 I believe that The Tree of Life included acceptable knowledge according to GOD and that The Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil included forbidden knowledge, Just my personal belief. I am 36 years old by the way, Black American male.

God bless, I appreciate the scriptures

"Man" didn't eat the fruit, Adam and Eve did, yet all man was cursed. So, Adam and Eve didn't know right and wrong before eating the fruit, so they couldn't have possibly known that eating the fruit would be wrong *before* doing so. They were made naive, and designed with the desire to eat the fruit, yet the were punished for life, along with all their innocent offspring, for something they couldn't have known was wrong. That's great.

I do find there are many omissions to this.

If it was a literal tree, they should have died the literal day. The next drag is original sin. The tree provided for consciousness of good and evil. Why does theology omit the good part of the tree only to focus exclusively on the evil, rendering man with a sin nature and not a dual nature of good and evil?

Also, if they did or didn't know of the STAKES to MORE than the two of them...?

tim silver So billions of people suffering for eternity in Hell isn’t a bad thing?

Benjamin Baruch in his book talks about walking in knowledge of good and evil which is walking in some of G-d's influence but in our own intellect. It is void of love, and is not lead by the Holy Spirit. It is walking in pride, and they believe in their own mind they are right and everyone is wrong. One person is right but the other 7 billion or so are soooooo wrong. These people believe they are saved, but they actually have their own mind as their G-d. Many will be knocking on the door of heaven, but G-d will say to many I never knew you. I know people like this---their own knowledge of the Bible is their G-d. There isn't any humility in them.

@@christagreuter91 This is coming from your intellect, ironically.

That's ok we can agree to disagree. As I do my regular repentance, and ask God to show me what is wrong in my heart, God showed this to me about myself. So I repented and have asked Him to fill me up with more love. I used to go to a Bible study where the women would jockey to get the floor with some truth in the Word, so they could look like a know it all and interrupt other people. They were not walking in love, but really into the knowledge of good and evil--that was what they were bowing down to, and I have been guilty of doing it too. It is ok to agree to disagree. Blessings!

@@christagreuter91 You can disagree because you want to believe you are "on the right path", and I understand that, but specifically to your point, you are using your mind to interpret every thought that you have. When you "think" something in your life is coming from a "holy spirit", you are using you mind to think that. When you read the Bible, you are interpreting it through your experiences, and hopes, and understanding of language, etc. If you are convinced something is coming from a god, you are simply convinced of that, and that is your mind being convinced; it doesn't mean it is actually coming from a god. It's the same thing with the other people you were talking about. They think that they are on the right path as well, and they are following what they believe to be words from a god. It's interesting that you think you can judge what is or is not lead by a holy spirit, for other people, simply because you feel things a certain way personally.

Proverbs 21:2 People may be right in their own eyes, but the LORD examines their heart.Matthew 7:18-20 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.It is not hard to figure out people that are rude and interrupt other people are not walking in the fruit of the spirit, and they are not walking in love. I choose not to be around people that are like that. It is really pretty simple for me. You can choose what you want to do, and I am free to do what lines up with the word of G-d. Blessings!!! Sorry I don't have time to becker with you anymore.....way to busy to argue.

It was Juno (Air) who stirred (brooded over) the waters in Genesis one. Air (Rauch) gets things moving.

@@harveywabbit9541 Greetings - This reply is unrelated to the comment. However, according to The Secret Doctrine by Madame Helena Blavatsky it was Lord Vishnu who vivified the waters, in other words, the Creator Deity. Blessings

How do you know right and wrong?

@@x4designs They didn't know it was wrong, Adam was aware that a being told him he would die. Another being told Eve they wouldn't die. There is a distinction between someone telling you that you will lose your life, and *knowing* that said thing is wrong. It wouldn't be a just act to eternally punish a naive child for touching a hot stove when they don't understand the consequences. You might tell them they will get burned, but they don't *know* what that means. So when they touch it, and get burned, we don't punish all of their offspring for the rest of time. That is not just. The point is A and E were cursed for their disobedience, yet they couldn't have possibly known disobedience was wrong, by design. This alleged god made them naive, and he made them crave the fruit. It says: "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it." They were designed with the desire to gain wisdom, the sense that the fruit was pleasing to the eye, and lack of knowledge that it would be wrong to eat it (remember being told something different by two different beings does not amount to *knowledge* of right or wrong). So, they were set up for failure, and given an absurd punishment, along with all of mankind, for being created ignorant.

@@x4designs No, it is an analogy. You are not understanding the relevant part of the analogy, and instead turning it into something else, by focusing on an irrelevant point. Try it this way. For one, there is no moral objectivity here, just a "might makes right" desire of one being (god) to be obeyed. Secondly, the toddler running around naked has nothing to do with anything. But I'll use that example. The toddler runs around naked, and is told to put clothes on, but it has never been punished before, and doesn't know what the consequence of disobedience is. How could it know the consequence without experiencing the consequence? Merely being told does not give the toddler understanding of the consequence, so it has no ability to accurately asses its actions. So, the toddler disobeys and is put in time out for awhile. Now the toddler knows that if it disobeys, it will get a punishment, and it couldn't have known that beforehand. But we don't put the toddler in time out forever. We don't strip it of immortality. We don't punish all of the toddlers offspring forever. This is not a fitting punishment. And nothing about being naked is objectively wrong, it's just that the "might makes right" rule maker doesn't want it that way

@@x4designs And where did the "two" beings comment go? Did you realize what I was talking about and delete your reply?

@@x4designs They are simply left to believe two separate beings based on their ignorance. The fact that one being appears to have done more things does not convey knowledge of moral ought, it just implies an ability to act in greater fashion. But that still doesn't give them knowledge of right and wrong, or consequence, which is the point. You keep missing the concept of these points.

@@x4designs And being that they didn't know good and evil, they had no reason to distrust the serpent.

So is it another dig at the law, without openly doing it? Because Numbers 11 and 31 CERTAINLY never saved anyone...

Good revelation

We are all made in the image of Jupiter. "I (the Sun) form the light and create darkness; I make peace (summer), and create evil (winter). I, the Lord (Sun) do all these things" (v. 7). Having first created peace (summer) and lastly evil (winter), the Lord sends down rain, for with winter the rainy season begins, from the skies that the seed just sown (winter barley/wheat) may germinate and produce a crop, and through it, salvation (v. 8). Winter having fairly set in, the Lord denounces the cold, blustering and rainy days, calling them "potsherds" a word, says Gesenius, "put for anything mean and contemptible," such as winter was ever esteemed by the suffering poor. Nevertheless, as winter is the offspring of summer, the latter is not to be blamed (v. 9). Parents cannot help what their children may be (v. 10). Isa. 47. Lord or God always means the Sun. See Rev. 9.5, where the scorpion (Scorpio) is the leader of winter. Peace (temple of Solomon the sun) is expressed as seven months/signs. The sword (iron) symbols the winter season of five signs/months.