Greetings Sir… Must tell you I have had SOOO Much fun building my bike. Thank you so much for your expert advice and for the components I got from you. Everything has worked out great! You rock Sir! “Madness”

LOL. I did my first conversion after watching that video and of course I bought a mid drive and loved it. Took me a while to realize that since I do food delivery and prefer single speed bikes a hub motor was just fine for me. If it wasn’t for the hills here 😆😆😆

Great video I cycle to work & back every day I don’t drive been looking at hub motors but after seeing this video I obviously need a mid drive instead thanks for the video it really helped 💯

💯 right changing a flat on a hub motor is pain difficult but i did fix flat..

I had bought my used bbs02 preinstall on a big 22 frame bike. After like 2 years I finally swapped it onto a 18 inch frame and it feels so much better. I'm a small guy as well. The motor didn't fit in the bottom bracket I had to use a dremmel to slowly thin it out. I also thinned out some of the paint on the bbs02 as well (maybe that bad idk). But it the yeah took me 2 whole days to do because I also had to swap all the other parts like the drive train as well from my first bike onto the 18 inch frame. I also have a triangle battery and it fits perfectly. Tbh I wanted to maybe get a 16 inch frame but because of the battery I had to pick the 18.

First of all I live in the UK I was born driving a drink shift I've had 3 hub motor e-bikes and since I've got the mid-drive I always look forward to getting on that bike I understand the mid-drive plus I don't go hard on the crank and I have a spare KMC Chain and innertubes so I don't get cort short Johnny 😅

Man Johnny I'm so grateful for this vid!!! I had seen the previous one comparing the two where you called hub motors junk. So being 67 & not riding for over 30 years I began searching for mid drives. But after seeing this one I ordered this monster hub ebike this morning, or rather backordered one. It's a Kepler 52V Electric Fat Tire Bike with great specs (to dumb me). Ever hear of them? There's a cool vid on here by The Junker test driving one & it sure can git it! He said it's great for steep hills too. Appreciate any views you have on this one. Thanks.

Hey Jonny I have a Stromer st1 and a gazelle Mondeo T9 I know the stromer cost more then the gazelle. But I have noticed is the stromer does better in the snow I think that hud motor weight in the back rim gives it better traction. I still like my gazelle.

Can't disagree with anything you say. Good, balanced analysis of the difference between the two systmes.

Thanks Johnny! Can you do a vídeo how to re-grease the middrive mottor? Thanks!

I have no problem, climbing hills with my hub motor but I like the video. Thanks for sharing.

Mid-drives work better for bad hills and heavy loads. (I have run both at some length.) In such conditions, mid-drives give significantly better performance regarding pulling power (for trailers, or if you’re heavy), hill climbing, and power consumption, especially with real distances.

just got a SCOTT Sub Sport eRIDE 20. took it for a longer test ride when i got home, and broke the speed limit a few times. speed limit in city here is 50 kmh/31mph. and it's a 25kmh support speed

Thanks! Now you can tell us what e-bikes are absolutely the best in your professional opinion.

Johneeeeee! Thanks for the tips. I have a 2012 Giant Talon 29er. Is it worth converting it to a street legal mid drive ebike?

Well I’ll probably be hitting you up soon on advice & parts to switch my new hub drive himiway cobra to a mid drive. I’m not an idiot , very mechanically inclined but brand new to e mtn bikes . 100% sold on mid drive for better gearing, top speed & torq for the hills in my area . Thanks for you great advice/ video .

I have a Bianchi road bike that's around 20yrs old. It has a 10spd Campy rear cassette. I was thinking of converting it with a mid drive. I believe it has a narrow chain. Would this work a mid drive? Would this chain be more likely to break?

What about front hub vs rear hub and what about hub motors for open axle vs closed axle (axle through the frame). Are there good hub motors for a closed axle?

You gave the exact reason Bike shops refuse to work on an Ebike,unless you purchased it from said Bike shop.

One thing I'd add. If you want a step through bike, you probably will need to go with a hub motor complete bike. Good step-through conventional bikes worthy of conversion are very few and far between. There are folks who know how to ride a bike, but for whatever reason have difficulty with the range of motion needed to mount a conventional bike. However, If you're in this group - see if a dropper seat post can do the trick for you before you go researching step-through bikes. One other thing. Compared to a ready-made affordable hub motor bike, a retrofit bike using any conversion motor will be tens of pounds lighter. A lighter bike is easier to lift and to transport without investing in bomber bike racks. Ready-made mid-drive bikes cost more, and good ones cost ton more.

Hi. How much is life of a 250w rear hub motor? How long can it last approximately?

The chain link of the bbhd motor doesn't a cover. Is it dangerous?

I brought a cheap made ebike Hub motor a year back and at first it looked the rhing, for a cheap ebike it looked the works and for a short time enjoyed it. But it tattled and wire to battery - controller kept vibrating lose, could feel great vibration through handlebars when going over uneven roads and got to the stage I wasn't enjoying riding. I would say about 40% was cheap parts and 60% state of our roads. I used a dearer ebike someone had with a hub motor I borrowed and I would say only felt 20% better, I am not saying anything wrong about hub motors as I know a few people who have them and they love them and put up with the vibration of the ride but when one as cycled for years one likes the bike to feel natural a cycling is more then just getting to one place to another. After a while I thought I would take my hub ebike and convert it to an mid drive so brought a kit, I took all the cheap parts off front suspension, cable brakes and replaced with higher quality even put different handlebars and the only parts of the original cycle is frame, battery, back wheel and front tyre and inner tube, it as improved by over 80% as it doesn't vibrate or rattle and had no trouble battery disconnecting and feels as if one is riding a normal bike, it still cost me a £1,000 less then it would of cost buying a ready made mid drive. The person hub bike I used he gave it ago and couldn't believe the difference and is now thinking of converting his to a mid drive. I f yoiu using a cycle just to get from a to b then yes maybe a hub drive will do but if pleasure of cycling it as to be a mid drive for the more natural feeling of cycling.

Very fair comparison & good info for the new enthusiast. After much research and a long life to learn... I ride a mid-drive and drive a stick shift;) Wouldn't have it any other way.

Tell me about changing tires on rear hubs! *Argh!* I needed to make a special lifter tool to make it less of a nightmare!

I have seen videos claiming the 750w motors are the same as the 1000w motors and up. And the diff is just the power pack. Is that true

I got a question it’s a strange one but can you electrify a Surrey bike with a mid drive of course cause I’m not a bafoon?

30K.... way to go Johnny!

Johnny you're awesome!

"power multiplication" that's an interesting concept you should patent it!😁

Thank You Johnny! Aging mountain biker, full-suspension bicycles, living in moraine territory and serious about off-road riding to the tune of ~1K km trail riding a year. Equally serious about chain cleaning and drive-line maintenance so I get a couple of seasons from a 9-speed chain and 3- 4 seasons from cassettes and chain rings. I do have the tools to measure the actual wear in the chain (which don't stretch). Really sounds like I ought to investigate a hub motor to assist with the black-diamond rides that get tougher every year, as I'm getting way too close to 70.

thanks very helpful

“Better” comparison than the last, but calling us hub peeps “old/don’t know anything about riding bikes” was a pretty big fail. People on YT like myself or Vortecks would disagree in that presumption and have years of experience. Overall I think you are an entertaining and likeable duder. I have actually recommended your channel in my videos a few times for people looking into mid-drive systems because I think you’re a good resource. I had my last hub ebike (52v, 35A, 30.5ah 1800W nominal) used for 20,000+ miles commuting and ebike touring stolen in October. I finally have all of my parts to build my new one this weekend. I went with a 8T GMAC geared hub motor and will film the build. The GMAC is the first major tech advancement in hub motors since inception. A geared motor with regenerative braking and 1/2 the weight of a DD motor but still capable of 2000W. I’m not anti mid-drive by any means. I pointed my mom (old and doesn’t ride much) to get a Luna Cycle Giant Roam 48V BBSHD (ludicrous upgrade) and she loves it.

Your logic is right gearing being better but what about sytems like Falco hub motors that allow the use of up to 11 gear hub systems so you would have all that gearing plus you would be able to use a triple crank giving 3 times the gearing of your Bafang motors that only have one gear at the crank. I have no knowledge about Falco other than what I have seen on their website so any incite would be appreciated. Also, I would be using it on a trike where a crank motor really puts a lot of weight up front (I have some experience with the Bafang motor on a trike).

Great, informative video. What about making a video on Bafang mid-drive programming and shedding light on that?

How about a mid drive and a hub motor in the front.

What do you have for sale

Is it possible to have a HUB and a Midd in one bike?? 😜🤪

Hi Johnny thanks for the info, wondering if you can recommend what would be a solution if I wanted an ebike that can ride nicely on the road to go 20-30 ks to get somewhere, that can haul a loaded trailer, that can function well on pedal only for if there was no power, and is rugged enough to go across country if roads were blocked and fast enough outrun hangry guys post apocalypse. Oh and that looks nice too - Too much to ask? Curious to see what you say :-)

Johnny I have a question for you. When I was a kid there was 3 and 5 speed sturmey Archer hubs. Could they be used with a mid drive motor system. Are they strong enough to hold up to the torque providing you use them properly. I thought it would be a good solution for chain positioning

i think belt-driven hub drivetrains are the future for mid drive bikes. so much more reliable and longer lasting than a chain.

What happen with the Versys?

I just wish the bbs02 or hd had torque sense or a way to add it.

mid drive lets you use hub gears or a CVT, if you're into that.

I'm a bit offended. One advantage of a hub motor is that the bike still works if the chain breaks or won't stay on the cogs. If that happens, you would rather fix it at home, not have to tinker with the derailleur while you are on a trail or street somewhere; assuming you have the tools available and it isn't dark, raining, or otherwise miserable for a roadside breakdown. That goes double for a Type 2 pedal assist bike. Broken chain? Turn on the throttle and ride home on your remaining battery power. With a regular bicycle, or mid-drive e-bike, you're walking home or begging for a ride. Hub motors work fine for smaller motors that won't exceed the strength of the spokes. The only real advantage of a mid-drive is that the mid-drive allows one to use gearing to match the motor speed to the bicycle velocity; however, my Velotric Discover 1 has enough power to conquer the steepest hills by my home in southern California despite having a maximum short-term overload power of 850 watts, so I don't know what you need a mid-drive for. If you want to ride that fast on steep hills, get a motorcycle. The exception is if you're in one of those countries that limit e-bike power to just 250 watts, like Europe -- there's a reason many e-bikes in Europe are mid-drive designs.

thx for this

Hey Johnny. My wife bought a cheap hub drive ebike on amazon. It worked well all summer. However towards the end of the summer her pedal assist intermittently stopped working. Her throttle still works but no go with the assist. It's a gotrax with the full aluminum wheels( wheels and spokes are one piece)

Hi Johnny nerd out. I like the channel, hope you do well on here. What’s the best /strongest ebike chain in your opinion? My one has stretched a bit and I’m hoping to get a new one before the rear cogs get wrecked. Currently I have a KMC m4100 10 speed 46… I’ve heard kmc are good (don’t know if that particular one is) the chain has done around 1500 miles. I’m in England so any relevant/worthwhile seller as well. All the best

But CAN YOU BUY a mid drive bike with dual suspension for offroad and trail riding for less than $2000?????

Damn.. I just got the KBO Hurricane.. and of course found your channel afterwards. Curios, is it possible to convert that to mid drive?

Are the kits waterproof can I ride them in all weathers as I live in LEICESTER England

Johnny, my first car was a 1988 Honda Civic and stupid 18 yr old me let the oil dry. I bet that car would still be running if I would've given it minimal care. It was so easy to maintain.. I remember replacing the distributor cap with a quick youtube video and 15 min of time. Loved that car and it was so reliable

What do you charge for a basic 750 W mid drive? With fenders and a rack

Would an internal gear hub make it easier for someone who's new to bikes to not destroy chains?

I switched to hub motor after 2 years because I was tired of buying a new chain every 2 months

Johnny, I want to convert my store bought hub motor ebike to a mid drive (once my warranty expires) but I managed to find everything except the rear wheel replacement. having a bit of difficulty finding a (please don't laugh) 20x4 inch cassette and disk break ready rear wheel. Yes, it is all aesthetics but I like how comfortable my bike is. Any suggestions, truly welcome.

Have you converted an american BB to a mid drive single speed?

have you ever made a vid on handle bars. comfort bars

Great advice 👍💯.. UK London 👍.

Isn't there an available electronic display, even just two daylight visible LEDs, which indicate the need for a shift up or down based upon the current draw of the mid drive motor? If not, there should be.

so as a 30 year old who hasn't ridden a bike since I started High School and only casually I should look more at Hub motors than Mid Drives for my first ebike?

I was looking for a middrive bike with a trotttle function but could not find one. So, I bought a hub drive bike and am happy so far with it! And looking on how it would be if one was to add a trottle function to a mid drive, the modifications, and the safety issues etc. I can understand why they did not make it yet.

BBSHD with asi bac 855 and 72v 25ah battery 4300watt of pure mid drive shreding power 1.st gear 45mph 3.third you are gone 4. Up to rocket to moon 😎💪🏻

Mid drive with Rohloff.

Am 65 and a med drive motor is what I want 1000w full suspension 27.5. I live on the top of a hill and the ⛱ beach is right down the hill about 10 blocks down. Where I have a beach house 🏠. Right on the sand.

Johnny, That EBike in the background... I think it says "HONDA" on the seat...I assume that's a Mid Drive, not a Hub Drive?

What's the Honda bike next to you? Looks scooterie

Im an experienced rider. I prefer the hub drive. Dont really care for gears, its illegal to ride any faster, than 28mph anyway. I bought the cheapest geared hub drive kit from aliexpress. (Sorry JohnnyNerdOut) Its been staying strong for around 15000 miles so far. I love it, its quiet(less so than a direct drive, but a lot more quiet, than a mid drive) powerful enough for me (750w) and the range lets me go full out on it for an hour straight. Biggest plus vs a mid drive over that time has been the noise. Hub drives are waaaaaay more quiet, even the geared hub ones. Biggest minus? Going uphill (that is literally the only time i pedal) I have geared hub drive for compactness and weight saving.

hey,ive got a question,ive installed a bbs02 on my bike yesterday,and ive noticed a problem.Whenever i put assistance level more than 6 sometimes,the battery just stops giving power and when i look at the display it tells me "0%" but then slowly gets back up.do you have any idea why?

Great video. My question is when you say shifting gears on a mid drive, im not sure what that means because I have 11 sprockets on my cassette and 9 on my mid drive. I have noticed my chain getting hewed up a little...I usually ride on gear 3 on the motor and I switch gears as needed on my rear cassette. Am I supposes to down shit the motor and the cassette or just the cassette or just the motor or both? Thanx in Advance..Stay Safe

You know what I don't like? Rim Brakes on an Ebike. I got into the worst bike accident I've ever been in on Thursday at 4:30PM and my friend and I both agreed that bike should go back to normal because it didn't even come with the front rim brake that we added it on. Not only does it only have Rim Brakes but ones that aren't nature. The only factory Ebikes I see with Rim Brakes on them are ones that have 350Watts. I am reusing the system on a new bike with disc brakes and having to buy a new set of wheels for the bike that got into an accident. The front wheel which is the front hub motor survived and the rear one didn't. Mirror that was already messed up broke. Pedal assist which is cheap broke too. Thumb throttle survived and still works but am still getting a new one because I am missing a screw from the accident.

Cant wait to afford a mid drive system to add to my himiway cruiser.. im turning it into a mountain cruiser

But is a 1000W mid drive better than a 5000W hub drive? because cost wise that's the comparison.

For delivery around the city, hub drive any day. Lots of stop-starts between traffic lights, no time to shift gears if you want to get that early jump to cross the red light before traffic starts, the one-gear throttle-controlled hub motor does wonders, and puts no strain on the chain. I've literally seen other delivery drivers with mid-drives have to downshift, losing that critical second or two before they could get going from the light, sometimes too late to get that early jump through red. I just thumb the throttle and speed off. That being said, you do need a good powered hub motor for that kind of peppyness. 1000w minimum (I got a 1500w one). And yes, it's less efficient and less torque up hills, but for me the tradeoff works. Obviously not street-legal (especially here in Europe), but who cares. Put a 250W sticker on the hub (rip the 1500w one XD ), drive low-key around cops, and nobody pays you a 2nd glance. Very easy to get around the dumb rules.

So are there other factors that affect how fast you will wear away your drive train? For example, I live in illinois which is the 2nd flatest state behind Florida, also I don't plan on getting a throttle. Would it last longer? I'm the exact bad example you said in the other video when it comes to gears lol. I have a 7 speed and leave it at 7 and change the power of the hub motor when I need more torque or speed. I was considering getting a mid drive with a internal gear hub mainly so that it's a little easier to start again after stopping (by being able to shift gears when not moving). But I doubt I'd be very good at slowly shifting back up to the highest gear. Do you think I'd be better off sticking with the hub or do you think in this specific case I might not eat through chains that much faster?

Buying anything is an experiment in experience .. mostly the first purchase is the wrong choice

If your into REAL preformance. Go highpower hubdrive. 3k 5w 8kw 10w 14w all the way to 32400w Hubs can handle any of it. Look into qs205 or qs273. Focus more on continuous amps of battery and controller than anything. With the right power you will smash any middrive. (I pull 74mph on qs273) If you want a lowpower ebike thats more of an actual bike and fast for its limits go for a middrive.

Pros and cons,mid drive BBSHD bafang usually difficult to handle in traffic have to be treated with respect,chain and derailleur killer but for going up steep hills really fantastic. Hub motors more reliable but unless you get a 3500w hub and a big 🔋 battery ...after 5 chains and 1 derailleur on the BbsHd I would go back to buy a bigger hub and a big battery,more reliable, in any case good video Johnny but as for mid drive until they sort out a titanium chain or put a internal gearbox with a one speed gog on the rear hub then I would go back to a hub. The mid drive motor is not really reliable enough.

Did you talk to a guy named Greg lately?

I am wondering why we never see any hub motors designed with an internal geared hub integrated into the design? I'm no expert on the subject but it looks doable, albeit more complicated. Has anyone else thought of this or knows why it isn't viable? The only real roadblock I can see, is that possibly internal geared hubs may not be robust enough to reliably handle the stress - or that the failure of either component would require the replacement of both. I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on the matter.

Cyclone no chain gard

Power is not multiplied by gears. Gears change speed and torque in proportion to each other. No power is gained, only lost through gears. To patch a tube on the side of the road, use a rope to hoist the bike up a pole or tree. You gotta learn a couple of rope concepts though. I would rather mess with a heavy rear wheel than a nasty chain. If wattage output is the same, the performance would be the same. It cannot be night and day if both mid and hub dyno the same. If they do not dyno the same, they are not the same power. A $100 direct drive hub motor can eat 7 kW with ease. A $100 hub motor pushed to its thermal limit will power wheelie. It is not like an internal combustion car with gears, electric motors do not work the same as piston engines in cars.

Lol at "basically considering a wheelchair"

bike shops by me will never work on any ebike. They just do not to work on anything with a battery.

5:18 🤣

“If you’re thinking about a wheel chair … get a hub motor” @5:18 Hmmmmmwhat

Shameless promotion!! What's the number again?

The preformance difference is irrelevant when you don't have low power bikes. at a cetain point you literally cant even use a mid drive. My qs273 can handle alot more than any mid drive can by far. The most powerful mid ive seen is 3000w. It cant compare to a 8000w motor that can handle 32400w of power. If you want a low power bike then a mid drive will out preform but the power hubs can handle will far surpass mid drives and be insanely faster.

Bull crap! Removing the rear wheel with a hub motor is no big deal. I done it many times, and I'm no mechanic.

Insulting older riders, got it. Wheelchair get a hub motor? Typical millennial arrogance

I just buy a normal bike and tie a rope to the automobiles. I call it a "hitch drive" 🫡