"If your story is sincere enough, nothing is 'cheesy'." Damn that got me.

I'm actually a huge fan of marvel movies, but this is one thing that I have brought up again and again walking out of them. The emotion is cheapened by the comedy. This was a great video!!

6:35 Oh crap, I forgot this video was about Wonder Woman in the fist place.

Thank you for calling out the biggest problem with the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

In the first 2 minutes, you have explained my frustration with most movies these days

I must say, I am shocked at the amount of civil, intelligent discussion going on in this comments section.

Thank you for this. Honestly MCU films' overuse of Bathos is getting annoying. I hope they change it.

You're so right man! It's almost like today's society is lacking deep emotions, I love things that make me cry, a movie, game, TV show or book. We need to not be afraid to show our deep feelings.

Bathos is cowardice. It's like saying "I love you." to a friend and then following up with "No homo!"

I think Wonder Woman is a dramatic movie that handles it's comedy well. It has Humor but ultimately if it had a choice between an emotional moment and a joke it'd choose an emotional moment

This 100% summarised the issues I had with the tone in Infinity war

It's not impossible to tell a dramatic, gritty story and make jokes without undercutting the drama, but it takes a delicate touch. I can't help but think of Avatar the Last Airbender because the humor is a cornerstone of the show (look what happened to Shamaylan's movie without it), but it's a fairly dark story overall. They just never use the humor to undercut the important moments.

Agreed! And this is why I think the MCU will always have a sort of ceiling on it. On a different note, I don’t know what the heck they did with Guardians of the Galaxy, but it managed to be hilariously entertaining without particularly using off-putting bathos. Even the “standing in a circle scene” actually really feels like something Rocket would say. And maybe that answers my question! I loved Guardians humor because the humor all comes from character. The Guardians don’t press pause on the movie, look toward camera, tell a joke, then resume the movie. All the humor is really them interacting with each other in real ways

Another point about Wonder Woman is that the scenes with jokes feel like the jokes should be there. They fit, and they don't undercut the emotion of the scene. (Mainly the scene where Diana is looking for a new outfit.) It's lighthearted when it needs to be, but it cuts back to drama and shows that WWI is a dark event, that should not be trivialised, and this movie does it justice.

*"if your story is sincere enough, then nothing is cheesy."*

It really frightens me to see society so staunchly running away from emotion and taking topics seriously in their media. This sort of thing shapes our overall culture, and will no doubt contribute to many childhoods of the next generation. We're essentially saying, "We don't care about anything, nothing should be taken seriously; you should be embarrassed if you ever listen to your own emotions or dedicate yourself wholeheartedly to something." It just makes us ripe for being pushed around by people who are actually living life. You can very clearly see the shift of society in the way comics and comic-book movies are made, what does it say about us if we can't care about our own narrative for 10 minutes?

in some ways diana’s personal sincerity added some level of comedic value while not taking away from the drama. the ice cream scene, for example. she is sincere in her love and appreciation of the ice cream, which is somewhat funny to an audience that understands social conventions, but it maintains the integrity of diana’s character and emotions. idk just my take

Every time someone mentions Alexander Pope, all I can think of is Kirsten Dunst's character in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind mistakenly calling him Pope Alexander.

WOW, thank you so much for this analysis! I've recently realized I've been doing exactly this "bathos" thing in my own writing, I don't really do it on purpose but I just slip into it naturally and it's absolutely true that it undermines the drama of the scene and takes away from the sincere emotion. I got called out for using pathos too much when I was younger and I guess I took it to the heart a little bit too much and went overboard with the reverse. (The irony is that I've just read some of my old writings and I actually kind of mastered the art of pathos at like 13 and should have been proud of myself. lol) It also explains why I rarely remember any scenes with emotional impact from the latest super hero movies (except for WW), any scenes with real depth, while I can still remember how deeply touched I was as a young teenager when watching Spiderman and Spiderman 2 (and countless movies from the 80s - definitely my favorite era). You really pointed me in the right direction for balancing it all out :) I also think this whole thing runs deeper than just movies, it's like people in general are really afraid of sincerity and genuine emotion and they rather go for smart-ass quips and sarcasm because it makes them seem cool and above it all, but they're really just hiding their fear of something real, their fear of their own vulnerability and humanity even. (There might be some fear of the "feminine" at play as well but I won't go into that.) I do hope this is just a phase and the success of WW is a sign that we still do love true, genuine stories and will continue loving them as long as we are human. Keep up the great work with your channel! :)

Wow, this resonates with me so hard. Movies almost want to make fun of you for caring. Brilliantly put, love this.

Yess, I didn't realise until I watched it, but Wonder Woman really made me miss the good old 'cheesy' superhero films filled with brilliantly impossible superhero moments, like Sam Raimi's Spider-Man or the old Batman films. The quips from marvel movies were fun at first when no other super hero movie was doing them, but now they're all quipping so Wonder Woman was like a breath of fresh air. Man, I've got to watch that again 😍

I would say that the trend of increasingly self-aware movies that undermine their own drama with quips and subversions started with Scream and its sequels. While these were still more-or-less slasher films, they were already chock-full of comedy at the expense of the slasher film genre itself, like when the characters discuss the "rules" of being in a slasher. Of course, these films were a massive success, and led to the Scary Movie franchise and its offshoots, which took the concept and ran with it all the way into the endzone of absurdity. I think the lesson Hollywood internalised from these developments is that a movie that takes itself or its subject matter too seriously is a lot harder to pull off than one that is covered in a thick coating of irony and self-deprecation. If you make fun of your movie first, your audience will be less inclined to treat it as a serious film and will therefore be more willing to overlook stupidity and plotholes, "because it's just a dumb movie anyway". I fucking hope that with the success of Game of Thrones, Wonder Woman and other films/shows that play themselves straight, executives will finally grow a spine and stop trying to cover their ass with pre-emptive irony.

Thank you for not just getting writing right, but for using/actually growing in emotional courage and valuing the higher reasons for art. Very grateful for you.

Is an art-form awash in bathos a reflection of a lack of sincerity in the wider culture? This is the question your video left me with.

I see people disagreeing about Civil War, but I also think it Guardians of Galaxy (vol 1, vol 2 is an excellent example) is bad example, not because it is a comedy but because it is entirely in character for Rocket, he is uncomfortable with the emotion and so makes a joke. It reinforces the emotion because it shows how big a step it was for him

This is a wonderful essay, and it made me realize some of the problems in many films lately. I think people like Waititi can handle Bathos and make it a part of the story and character journeys, but in films like Doctor Strange the humour feels manipulative.

Using the sound from the end of Rocky while Wonderwoman goes into no-man's land really got me.

I noticed the opposite of bathos in Wonder Woman midway when they're heading towards war. It starts comically with Diana and Steve talking about which direction to go and comments on the recruitments they are doing And suddenly injured soldiers start coming from the other side of the bridge. The scene transacts from comedic to tense...

Hell, I've started using the word cheesy for dumb jokes inappropriate times then for some poorly crafted drama. Seriously quipafication is really starting to become a plague in modern cinema.

Loved this. To quote Doc Hammer, "Cold, aloof irony, and its inherent fear of risk will always lose out to sincerity in the long run. But sadly, in the moment, sincerity takes a beating and gets labeled as "sappy", "dramatic", sentimental", and shit like that, while the safe distance that irony takes is rewarded as "clever"."

Joss Whedon also knows when not to joke too. In the commentary for a Buffy episode in a later season where a main character dies, he points out that he made the scene extra ackward for the audience on purpose by leaving out the soundtrack that up till that point always accompanied similar scenes. He explained that music relieves tension like a joke by telling the viewer how to feel, and the most emotional scenes are the ones where you make the audience rely on what the events mean to them, and let them stew in that as long as you can get away with. Tldr: ignore what I just wrote and watch "Firefly" to see uncountable jokes do no harm to stories dripping with pathos. It can be done.

"What am I feeling and why do I feel thus way" is the most important question any person can ask themselves, ever. Whether it is books, movies, music, politics, the news, always always ask yourself the question. What do I feel and why do I feel that way?" Will cause you to naturally become critical. It's an important skill.

To be fair though, Rocket's "A bunch of jackasses, standing in a circle." Is totally in character.

Bathos Definitely works best when it also works to help tell the story. Deadpool’s refusal to call Ajax by anything other then his real name helps develop and establish both characters and who they are as people and actually has a lot of layers to it for addressing who Deadpool and Ajax are and defining their for lack of a better word relationship

That Airport scene always bugged me because it basically felt like a kid smashing his toys together chaotically with little emotion until the kid starts crying because he accidentally broke War Machine!

This is why The Winter Soldier is the best MCU movie

For me, the flippant attitudes and comic timing in Guardians of the Galaxy serve to reinforce the emotional weight of the narrative, not harm it. All the characters are set in their ways, be it as a defense mechanism (Rocket, Star-Lord), misunderstanding (Drax, Groot), or just self-seriousness (Gomorrah), and when their quirks sync up and make a really memorable, funny moment, it cements the idea that they're a good team. When Rocket interrupted the pep talk, it didn't break the scene: it showed that he couldn't help but support his friends, while also reminding us why that was important: he wants to blow everything off like he doesn't care. If he had instead slipped on a piece of laundry on the floor, or something like that, I'd agree with you. But he didn't. That's why the script is so good. Everything (or very nearly everything) that's funny also develops the characters.

Want sincerity? Watch Hayao Miyazaki films

This is why in GOTG the "Take my hand" scene at the end is seen as cheesy when it's actually a truly sincere, great heroic moment. It's still a Marvel movie but imagine that same scene but midway through all of them holding each others hand and sharing the force of the Power Stone, Drax farts, music stops, and he goes "sorry" while Ronan eyerolls. That's what Marvel usually does. What Patty Jenkins said about cheesiness is right.

This how I've felt through a lot of movies I've seen since 2006. But I was never able to articulate this issue like this guy just did. Great video essay. Bring sincerity back to our films.

"If your story is sincere enough, then nothing is cheesy." I'll make sure to keep that in mind! Thank you.

And thats why i loved Logan.

me: clicks on "What Writers Should Learn From Wonder Woman" also me until 6:30: did i click the right video???

When I watched wonder woman, there was one moment that I found hilarious that I think was unintentional. The moment of the big reveal that Morgon was Ares, and the way he was potrayed to have that same mustache back when he killed the gods in ancient times made me laugh. It was just ridiculous to me and the mustache is sorta anachronistic.

This was an issue I instinctually felt with Dr. Strange. Though perhaps I hadn't articulated it as thoughtfully as you have now. I came out of Dr. Strange feeling it was far too jokey. It was as though they were apologizing for the material. Dr. Strange took the jokes inappropriately further than it should have. I can see that now that this is an overarching pattern with the Marvel movies. At the time I felt it was perhaps because Dr. Strange was an overt step into the world of mysticism and magic. And like the filmmakers couldn't help but apologize profusely by peppering it with joke after joke after joke. Which ironically enough end up becoming "cheesier" had they just played for sincere drama. Another one of the most moving comic book movies recently was "Logan". Which was not done by Marvel Studios. How many chuckles would Marvel Studios tried to have cram in that film to alleviate its dark somber tone. By the way, would love to see a video from you on "Logan".

One of the greatest videos of KZfaq in a while.

This is literally why i can't love marvel movies. I hate this overuse of bathos, stakes are droping fast beacause of it.

The moment from Dr. Strange was especially weak, because flipping up the collar was already a joke reference to the Sherlock series and then piles up another 'joke'.

I don't think Marvel Studios does what they do because they're afraid of being cheesy, I think they do it because they're afraid of being cliche. That's the problem with comparing a contemporary film to a classic film. Many of the story beats that the older film utilized have since become worn out. If E.T. or the original Star Wars come out in this day and age, odds are they'd be wouldn't be nearly as well-received by audiences and critics. But they're extremely respected and regarded as they are because we acknowledge the era in which they were made. What was the primary criticism of The Force Awakens? It recycled too many of the story beats of the original Star Wars. What was the main criticism of The Amazing Spider-Man reboot? It repeated too much of the original Spider-Man film. That's what Marvel Studios has to deal with. Let's face it, no other contemporary genre is as played out and trope-laden as superhero fiction. Since the release of the original Spider-Man trilogy, how many superhero films have gotten where we watch a main character progress from being an Act 1 protagonist to an Act 3 protagonist? Hence the cape scene in Doctor Strange. If you have no choice but to invoke a moment that's been done several times before, you do have to undercut it a little so it doesn't look completely identical to what's come before. That's the thing, when implementing tropes/cliches, even if the film isn't an outright comedy, you have to subvert expectations otherwise you'll look like you're going through the motions and come across as formulaic. I personally didn't care for the cape thing, but seeing as Marvel is constantly accused of being formulaic, I can see why they do stuff like that. The reason Wonder Woman didn't have to deal with that particular trope is due to lead protagonist's overall lack of a fleshed-out character arc. Unlike Peter and Doctor Strange, and similar to Captain America in FA, Diana is more or less the same person, a selfless hero, from the very beginning to the very end. Unlike Peter, Strange, Iron Man, etc we don't watch her develop the resolve to become a hero over the course of the film. She just is. So the film doesn't even make for a really good comparison to begin with. Also he's being very strict when saying that there are specifically correct circumstances to use bathos. Whatever happened to the there are no rules rule? Sine when is undercutting tropes exclusive to comedic films, like Deadpool and Lego Batman? Personally, I think Marvel, for the most part, uses bathos to give an almost postmodern sense of self-awareness, which once again shouldn't be limited to comedic works. And I for one liked that "standing in a circle" line from GOTG. I felt the line, which was improvised, was fitting of the character and well-executed to the point that the scene is preserved, unlike the cape thing with Doctor Strange. Like I said, I don't think they do stuff like that just to be funny, but to also prevent scenes from being identical to so much of what's come before. Oh and for the record, they almost always make fun of the superhero name. Spider-Man, Man of Steel, X-Men: "What kind of name is Rogue? ... What kind of name is Wolverine?" or "Sabertooth? Cyclops? Storm? And what are you, Wheels?" Seriously, they've been doing that bit forever. Anyway, overall I found this video to very insightful but I felt like some of his comparisons and assumptions were a bit off.

They might not be parodies, but I think it's common in super hero films now because they are such tired tropes. It's unfair to ignore the context. Spider-man 2 came out in the early 2000s, where as Doctor Strange 2016. It's likely writers are worried about hitting these cliche moments and so underpin them. However, I also think it's ironic because so many do it that it's more common to find this Bathos over an ACTUAL serious moment, thus why I believe you felt the necessity to contemplate this topic.

If only someone had given Taika Waititi this advice before he made Thor: Ragnarok. There was so much bathos in that movie it was suffocating. I kept hearing the same praise: "I liked Thor: Ragnarok because it didn't take itself too seriously." When did it become a bad thing for a movie to take itself seriously?

Wish I'd seen this two years ago, rather than just coming across it now. Would have made a perfect contribution back when I was teaching teenagers about postmodernism in media: this perfectly articulates the argument that when everything is a little ironic, nothing is entirely sincere and entertainment constantly presents itself *as* entertainment with a meta-cinematic (or whatever medium) wink, then the power of entertainment to *say* anything (or make us really feel anything) is the cost. I think I'm a touch more tolerant of the meta (some of my favourite films and plays manage to switch between self-aware laughter and sincere drama with power and deftness) and less so of the cheesy (whilst the lead characters and many of the scenes in Wonder Woman worked exactly as you say for me too, there were also scenes in which the film seemed to charge, - with total, heartfelt sincerity - into the borderline ridiculous) but, yes: Good point, well made, and thank you for it.

Thank you! I've been thinking about this ever since I walked out of Guardians of the Galaxy 2 without having felt a single thing. Films like Wonder Woman, Superman, the Dark Knight trilogy and the original Spider-man movies knew how to draw an audience into story without sacrificing the dramatic tension or the core values of the film and I've missed that in films lately so much.

I've got to disagree with your analysis of the airport scene in Civil War. I think that you would be spot on if it were Captain America telling the jokes -- but it's not, it's Iron Man. One of the major characteristics of Tony Stark is that he, himself, struggles with sincerity. He avoids emotional vulnerability by quipping, & only in moments where he loses his composure does he genuinely express what he's feeling. Iron Man telling jokes doesn't mean that the tone has changed -- it means that he's Iron Man: someone who wears both a literal & a metaphorical suit of armor.

"If your story is sincere enough, then nothing is cheesy" Well said great video as always. Keep them coming, my friend. You have a lot of wisdom to share

It isn't just emotion; people are afraid of expressing a point of view, of having something to say. In part I think because while you're learning you tend not to do justice to things that matter to you. So people learn to undermine themselves before someone else can beat them to it.

Okay how does civil war have bathos in the airport scene. Sure it has jokes but there in character to what Tony Stark and co. do so it never undermined the drama in the scene. Especially since the subtext of most of the quips is 'I am going to stop you by any means.'

oh my god I agree completely. I fucking love the feeling I get from a story that takes its message seriously despite the presentation appearing ridiculous and cartoony. Like Scott Pilgrim, the original Spiderman movies, Speed Racer, and Independence Day. Storytellers HAVE become afraid to be genuine and i think you hit the nail on the head in this video. I hate the tone Marvel has been going for in the last few years. It's just so empty.

Best example of this was the beginning of "The Force Awakens". We have an amazing build-up and Kylo-Ren has just slaughtered LOR SAN TEKKA and stops a laser shot mid air in one of the most legendary scenes in the entire Star Wars franchise. As an audience - I was spell-bound. I thought Kylo was the coolest thing since Vader. Then Poe has to go "So who talks first? You talk first?" "It's just very hard to understand you with all the..." and they just took away all the emotions that I had just built-up.

This is the first time I've seen a video by this channel. you've convinced me. I want to watch more, and I will.

Should have talked about WW more though.

...And subscribed.

in civil war's case the drama being cut by the comedy in the middle made the last battle much more emotional for me . It separates the conflicts , where the middle fight was about bringing your friends back to your side and the last was completely against them.

Dude I just watched the Shang-Chi scene where he explains how he learned to kill people just to get interrupted by a flight attendant asking what kind of meal they want and I hate it so much

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!! I can't tell how much I agree with you! It feels like 'the internet culture' (sorry for the generalisation!) has drawn the sincerity out of so many things. Today it's all about the lulz, the memes, the remixes and the 10 hour versions of that remixes. I don't want to sound like grumpy grampa railing against that indecent, disrespectful youth with their mobile phones and their gameboys and their internets - but it's true to a certain degree. The emotional spectrum seems to be so dominated by humor lately. Now there's nothing wrong about a good laugh, not the tiniest bit. But where do we go as a society when bathos is breaking so many emotional moments in blockbuster movies? Are we overchallenged with sadness? Do we shout "CHEEEESYYYY!" at everything that might be able to get to us at a deeper emotional level? It's no shame to share a character's grief, or to get goosebumps during an emotional speech! Moments like those make us able to feel the same in real life and therefore make a deeper connection with the people around us. But since we award the guy cracking the best joke in the comment section with reactions like "You, Sir, just won the internet!", no matter how serious the case, coping with negative emotions will always be difficult. And that's why there's so much truth in Patty Jenkins' statement against cheesyness. I hope she will be making a lot more movies in the future!

"My favorite movie in the world" *shows Rocky* instant subscribe right then and there

I LOVE THIS CHANNEL. Thanks for the incredible work and analysis.

James Gunn gets it right in his 'Guardians of the Galaxy' movies. Sure, they are comedies, and he does have those moments of bathos (like the clips you showed in this video,) but when he does have those pivotal moments of emotion, he goes all in and does NOT trivialise that moment in any way. I know plenty of grown men who cried at Yondu's death and funeral, even though the 'Mary Poppins' joke had them laughing just minutes before. And when baby Groot was bullied in the second movie it was genuinely heart-wrenching, as was him sacrificing himself to save his friends in the first one.

Ok I might've missed a point of this video so if that happend please forgive me. That being said, I found the last line that Wonder Woman said to Ares before she finished him was misplaced. Or..."cheesy". I was fine with everything in the movie. Heck, Steve's lines to Diana about how humans are flawed was the best thing in the movie. I considered sincerity in that dialougue. But all that was contradicted, in my personal opinion, when WW had to say to Ares that "Love conquers"...or something of that sort. I considered Patty just contradicted her New York Times statement by having this line in the movie. That line could be a "wink to the audience" because "what the kids like". Love is a vague term. Soldiers go to combat because of their loved ones. Civillians die because other soldiers "love" their country or their families. I thought that "Wonder Woman" should be the last movie to have such a statement. Again, I very much likely missed a point in the movie, or in this video. But that is my point.

One important lesson from Wonder Woman: don't trip at the finish line.

I think this why I really loved Spider-man Homecoming. Outside of the scene where Toomes kills the first Shocker is the only one I can recall where the scene drifts into trivial from serious. And even then, it just serves to show the Vultures deterioration.

also, dude, i love the way you put in clips that perfectly demonstrate your points. The "i love you" layered over wonder woman's totally cheeseball run with the bullet parrying bracers...lol.

Wonder Woman is the first movie in a while to make me fall in love with a superhero again. I've been feeling like Marvel undercuts its own drama for a while, I'm glad to have a word to associate with it now. Great video, more people need to watch this and understand why we need more movies like Wonder Woman.

This. This right here is exactly what I've been complaining about from Marvel films for years. They always have to ruin dramatic moments for the sake of a joke, and they're getting worse every year about this. This is the reason why Venom was so popular despite critical panning: it's sincere. It's not trying to change the world, it's not trying to show a message and it doesn't have a hidden agenda, but it's not afraid of its story and character. Plus, while there's a lot of humor, none of it comes at the expense of drama. That's why it resonated so much with audiences. Yes, if you're going to sit down and start picking at plot holes it's going to sound like a stupid mess, but if you can just sit down and be emotionally invested in it, it's a really enjoyable ride.

Most excellent! I've tried to articulate this to friends after seeing Marvel movies, but this does it better than I ever could!

You have literally just described PERFECTLY why I hate 99% super movies, I could never put my finger on it and you’ve done it perfectly

Yesterday I watched WW again, and that scene in No Man's Land, where she shows herself as a proud warrior, got me all teary. Such an inspiring character!

In defence of the airport scene: That is Tony's character. He practically unable to handle situations like this without lighting them up with quipping and jokes. Because otherwise it would weigh too heavy on his shoulders.

Thanks for this wonderful video. Yes, that last scene of the Rocky movie ALWAYS brings tears to my eyes!

That's why i love the Baz Luthermann Romeo and Juliet ,because is a chessy movie that builds itself something and still can give a honest emotion like the ending

The jokes in Dr. Strange were poorly timed I agree but I think you may be misreading the battle scene in Civil War. That battle is coming at a point when neither side is really sure how deep the division between the two sides is. All of the characters, especially those who aren't Cap, Iron Man, Panther and Bucky, are still thinking they are dealing with friends who are just standing in their way to an obstacle. I think War Machine's accident is what solidifies the conflict and helps each side see where they really stand and how far they're willing to go to support their cause. The final battle scene between Tony, Bucky and Cap, where all of the characters know exactly how the other characters feel about them, you don't see any humor undercutting the seriousness of the scene.

My god, this was a fantastic video! And perfect explanation (though I was not fully aware of it myself) of why I dislike most superhero movies (Marvel especially). Though I am entertained by them, I can't say I'm moved in any way by them. In fact, I forgot the plot to most of the ones I've seen.

this is a problem that’s been bothering me a lot, but i’ve never been able to put it into words. thank you

I cried at the end :,) Tanks so much for putting in all the effort to creating this superb essay!

I hate the whole “it’s Tony’s character” argument. There comes a point when something hits a character so hard it takes them out of character, they struggle to deal with it. It should have been like that, especially in Civil War which was practically the build up to Infinity War. It’s why I find that Marvel mostly has zero rewatch value, I’m not invested the first time, so I definitely won’t be the second time. There is no drama, or build up or angst or anything to grip me like there is in most DC films, but for someone reason DC gets the crap for being ‘too dark’.

that freeze-frame ending was brilliant

Lol I always loved the bit with the cape clinging to Stranges face. I totally get where you’re coming from though.

This was excellent. I watch a lot of video essays and have not heard this point made at all

I am so glad I'm not the only one bothered by the collar scene in Dr. Strange. When I saw it the first time I turned to my companion and said "I hated that" out loud; I hated it that much. On the flip side, I loved the Wonder Woman scene where she climbs the latter to enter no man's land. That may become one of movie's classic scenes.

"You can run from it, but your destiny still arrives..."

Another reason that bathos works in GOTG (particularly after its sequel) is that the characters themselves are afraid of showing genuine emotion. The example that you used--Rocket making fun of the fact that everyone was standing in solidarity--works because Rocket is extremely guarded, and uses flippancy as a defense mechanism. He's the most extreme example, but there's an element of this in each of the characters.

I like the "reverse bathos" in the Spider-Man comics during the death of Mary Jane. Spider-Man rescues her joking about something and don't realizes that she broke her neck during the rescue... I think this sudden change of tone can be very well used in favor of a consistent history. For example, to point out what the character consider a dire situation or not (a typical dramatic moment in any history taken lightly by the protagonist, might tell something about the character).

As someone who could never really love Thor: Ragnarok in the same way as everyone else: Yeah. I totally agree.

I think that Tony's flip flopping in the airport scene sas more about his character then the scene itself. He plays quippy to stand tall for Rhodey, acts tough for Steve, plays light-hearted for Peter (Back to Stoic Steve) then back to quippy for Clint and Wanda. It shows how insecure he is after everything that has gone down in Sokovia. The first scene we see him in just slather on the emotional turmoil by literally showing us the last time he saw his parents then transitions to his guilt after so many have died by having a mother tell Tony that he is a murderer with conviction. I don't know, just my thoughts

You have just described one of the most persistent issues with modern screenplays. I salute you. Subscribed!

You can tell the difference in writing when it came to Infinity War and Endgame. Marvel definitely dialed the bathos down a bit because I truly felt things during that movie. The scene where everyone turns to dust in IW was _haunting_ . The Portal scene had everyone in the theater screaming and Tony's death drove me to tears. Most importantly, none of those scenes contain any jokes.

I've missed you!

I agree with most of what you say in this video. However: One thing where I have to disagree with is the fight scene in "Civil War". I don't think that's a tonal issue. I think what they did there was actually rather brilliant. Because here is how I see this scene: I think even though the two sides are battleing each other for their ideals, they don't really fight to actually "harm" each other. I think for most of them, it must feel like a friendly brawl among close friends. Yes, that would be really stupid and irresponsible, because they are still fighting with high-powered weapons and destroying stuff, but I think that's the point! I think many of the Avengers have kind of lost track of how important it is, that they take their powers seriously! It's part of the theme of the movie. And the reason why I think it's deliberatelly done this way, and not just accidental, is the way the fight ends. They all hit, punch, kick and shoot each other, but still take it kind of lightly... until somebody actually gets hurt! The moment when Rhodey actually gets injured is the logical conclusion of a couple of childish, imature people just throwing around their powers! Because, as you might notice, after that scene, all the action changes! There is no levity, and no light hearded fun in the action scenes that follow. Because Rhodey getting injured is the moment, when it suddenly hit everybody, how much damage their powers actually can do, even towards each other. And that's important in this scene. Because even though some of the characters throughout the movie have struggled with the consequences of their power, most of the Avengers didn't really seem to take sides based on idiology, but rather based on who has taken which side. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. But that's how I felt the scene was supposed to be taken the first time I saw it, and given the subject-matter of the movie, I think it makes sense.

At least the "serious to trivial" tactic works well for the Guardians of the Galaxy films, as it sets up that tone right from the start. :)

This is an amazing job of explaining why I've had subconscious issues with the MCU. I am entertained by all of them, and really enjoy most of them, but they undercut themselves and fell like they are missing something. I now have an idea of what that something missing is. Thank you.