😂😂😂😂

"I thought we were playing Mozart tonight"

😂😂😂😂😂😂

"This piece is absolutely the peak of human imagination" a bit exaggerated.. I'm not even sure it's the peak of Stockhausen's imagination (a great piece, for sure, but please: remember all music has been made before, around and after this - not to mention all other forms of art)

lmao. Imagine this being the last remnant of humanity.

oui c'est totalement vrai !

It is still the sound of me going insane from the nightmare!

That's because it's one of the few pieces left which radio stations like KUSC here in Los Angeles hasn't played literally a hundred times in the first six months of this year alone--- and isn't that dreadful "minimalism." Like "In C" ("C" standing for "Cruel and Unusual Punishment"). In case you've ever wondered why "top" musicians love playing In C, now you know. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_C

I don't like Serialism but I do enjoy Gruppen. It even moves towards Minimalism later on in the piece with the use of repetition. A marvelous experimental piece.

@@patrickcrosby3824 Surely you don't see Reich's highly developed, syncopated and and melodic music as punishment? His understanding of music is really comprehensive.

As someone very ignorant of Stockhausen other than a few snippets and a bit of reading, I found it very interesting and (surprisingly, at least to me!) listenable. It must be incredibly difficult to orchestrate and rehearse. Very dramatic musically but I'm not sure 'melody' would spring immediately to mind. Can you explain? Thanks.

i know im asking the wrong place but does anybody know of a tool to get back into an Instagram account..? I stupidly forgot my login password. I love any help you can give me

è vero

Everything vibrates.

Down hill since then.

He was certainly THE MAN if you wanted to proclaim him as the AVANT AUTEUR du jour. Nor sure if it sounds so transgressive now.

Maybe he had no choice, as the director of the paris conservatoire, since the orchestra of the conservatoire was performing along with the EIC...;-)

Nor one i thought id ever read.

I think it isn't a matter of the avant-garde moving on, it's more that something like this could be seen as a very brilliant dead-end. Even Stockhausen himself after writing this work and also making Kontakte changed! Personally I think this and Kontakte are his two great masterpieces. It's possibly too hard to explain here but the relations of tempos in the piece are harmonic ratios and the "model" of the piece is that of a three part counterpoint but with single pitches replaced by "groups" of pitches: each "group" is one note underneath. One reason why there are long sustained pitches towards the end is that Stockhausen stops articulating them in the way he does at the beginning, so it starts to feel "clearer". Stockhausen added "inserts" into the piece (such as the huge brass climax at 120bpm) which don't follow the model he laboriously constructed - the common idea of "serialism" as some kind of automatism is a complete falsehood by the way, a lot of this music is freely composed on top of an extremely rigorous scheme. I am glad that this piece exists. It is very often purely thrilling at a sonic level, especially when so well played as this. I would prefer this played a hundred times over even one scene of the late operas, which I regard as the biggest wasted effort in the history of music, not least because Stockhausen gave up constructing sound from the ground up when synthesisers became available and he could simply dial up a ready-made sound by the time of the Licht cycle.

Art can only ever reflect/interpret the age it was made in, but kind of parallel to painting having been changed by the revelation of African art... WESTERN painting having been changed... the influence of, say, gamelan on the work of Glass, Reich and others is, to me, undeniable. But in this case, and it might be something to do with being written in the post war period, the influence of Japanese music seems apparent to me; that move from a piece being effectively a melodic development, a cohesive structure to a "series" of "events" is, to me, an almost zen like way of telling the/a story.

@@porcinet1968 I have read your post twice and find myself in at least broad agreement with you. I also have this strange idea which I have carried around for some time, that post-WW2 art was in many cases a reaction to the horror of war and more particularly THE BOMB. "freely composed on top of an extremely rigorous scheme", again TO ME, sounds like a description of a Japanese influence. I could be wrong; I often am.

I can have the same experience walking into a middle school band room when they are warming up.

This music was created, for people to stand to the side, peeling off magnanimous words will great intellectual prowess, and assuming the Avantgarde by proxy.

All visual art is shit, doesn't matter who it is. The Mona Liza is lame masturbation

The youtube comment section is truly awful. Just awful.

@@bartyouknowme1699 gr8 b8 m8

@@bartyouknowme1699 yeah dude good point

@@bartyouknowme1699 you seem like a miserable bastard. Maybe you need a vacation.

Perhaps, but at least with Gruppen, if half of it was in error, the audience would never know.

I'm just amazed all of the effort wasted composing and rehearsing this piece only to have it sound like rubbish.

@@pikachuchujelly7628 It is very interesting or else we wouldn`t do it. And it is great for horror and sci-fi.

@@drivinsouth651 Yes, it can be used to great effect in movies, but listening to a 20 minute piece with nothing but this is not pleasant.

@@pikachuchujelly7628 After you finish laughing, reeling in terror, or both, it stops being interesting and becomes quite annoying. It literally sounds insane and I wonder if I am losing my mind along with the orchestra. , lol!

And Stravinsky thought that anyone could have composed Messiaen's "Turangalila-Symphonie" given enough manuscript paper. The difference is that just about everyone who hears Turangalila loves it, while this Stockhausen piece is completely forgotten 30 seconds after hearing it (and ditto most of late Stravinsky).

docsketchy That's not true whatsoever

I agree with Docsketchy completely...@@davidbrant390 The only reason this piece is remembered is because of it's unorthodox arrangement.

@Boris Sitnikoff Stockhausen was all about the theatre of a performance, you shouldn't need me to tell you that. Half of his piece was the concept, whether helicopters of 3 orchestras... Most people wouldn't pay to see this, it's laboratory music, nothing more, in my opinion. Sure, he won't be forgotten in a hurry, but I believe that's just BECAUSE of the craziness of the music. There are lots of ensembles/conductors that want to keep this music going, but there isn't a large audience for it. Compare that to a philip glass, arvo pärt, nico muhly or max richter concert.

@Boris Sitnikoff Dude i'm not going to be your reading list, go read about the man. I'd suggest 'My musical language' by Messiaen, there's a good section on Stockhausen. Do i really need to spell it out for you when the man was paid to write a piece for helicopters?

I feel like I'm summoned to hell and being beaten with hammers and sticks.

@@TheMikkis100 I know. Isn't it great.

Hi Seawall. I'm listening in a dairy barn in Illinois at 2:45am. Come have a coffee with me. Live stock seem to have a great appreciation for Stockhausen.

Thanks !

You could do the same with entire movements of Mozart works and nobody would be able to tell the difference

I think your comment says a lot more about your psychological state than about the piece. I have rather the sense of enrichment instead of extermination while listening to it.

@@thomaslaubli1886 Lol a funny quip. I like to make bold claims that challenge people's perspectives. I think you're missing the point of my comment though due to either misinterpretation or presumption. Tell me the point of listening to music that's clearly designed to illicit dark emotional connotations (i.e. compositions by Lili Boulanger, or Bernard Herrmann)? Don't fall sway to the temptation of trolling due to anonymity, it's inappropriate and too normalized these days. Talk to me and others as if you cared about the human behind the keyboard.

How much acid were you on while listening to this?

claro, descansaste cuando se terminó. como todo el mundo

amateurs.

Wasn't that an indeterminate note?

el inmenso ego de strawinsky obligó al mundo musical a fingir que esto le gusta.

@@dianamarin3767 Stravinsky supo apreciar la buena música de todos los estilos, aunque no fuera su estética específica. En este aspecto no tenía ego. Deberías aprender una lección de Stravinsky en ese sentido...

Not only you can't SEE all conductors at the same time (thanks to the incompetence of the film-maker) but you can't even HEAR that there are three ensembles (grupen) and three conductors, supposedly in interaction with each other, because this coexistence is a pure concept, an abstraction, which defies perception. Someone who does not know the way in which this piece is conceived would never guess that there are 3 ensembles. A perfect exemple of how contemporary music has built itself on a wilful ignorance of physiological parameters of sound perception.

@@jean-francoisbrunet2031 You can see all 3 conductors at 14.07-14.28, 17.50-18.09, 18.19-18.30, 22.44-23.00 and especially at 20.27-20.37. Clearly this is a challenge for stereo recording but if you get closer than what might be your normal listening position, you can hear what a great job the sound engineers have done.

@@jean-francoisbrunet2031 "A perfect exemple of how contemporary music has built itself on a wilful ignorance of physiological parameters of sound perception" a perfect example of a dogmatic generalization (by the way, you can perceive the 3 groups - I can, if I can, you can... - especially in live performance since in whatever recording you have the space is at least "compressed": haveing 3 different souces, one in front, one right and one left separated by several meters would be a pretty different experience. people too often forgets this part of music, often people misunderstand recorded music)

by the way: can you perceive here strong relations with Brunelleschi's work? kzfaq.info/get/bejne/nq2HZat9mJvPoY0.html I can't because they are only in the mind of the composer - does this mean the piece is bad? or the technique not legitimate?

@@emilianoturazzi A more interesting generalization might be to the Codex Chantilly or the 36-voice canon attributed to Ockeghem. But any debate is pointless without first agreeing on a certain fact: for the first time since the beginning of what can be called classical music (the late Middle Ages? The Renaissance?), and for more than half a century now, 99% of music lovers hardly ever listen to contemporary music (whereas before, they practically only listened to contemporary music). Only then can one profitably ask the question of the mechanism behind this strange evolution.

The dimension is called hell.

@@TheMikkis100 I like your comment . may be so. LOL

What "dimension" is that?

de hecho habria que taparselos 24 minutos es increible lo que la gente afirma con tal de parecer inteligente

​@@dianamarin3767unfortunately I think you're right.

Scott Bradley (composer for the Tom & Jerry shorts) actually incorporated Schoenberg's 12-tone-serialism in his scores for a few episodes.

And, moreover, he composed this piece in 1957, when the electric guitar was still in it's infancy.

Not that different from an audience at a Mozart concerto

Nadie entiende nada y todos fingen que les gusta

​@@dianamarin3767If you don't like, why you don't give a damn and go to hell?

I did exactly this with a piece by Gerard Grisey that uses percussion to outline those "harmonic rhythms" and it literally sounded like speech when sped up to a fraction of its actual length

@@porcinet1968 I need video demonstrations of that, sounds incredible

I think it is more an audience work. From the audience perspective you are in the middle of an arena where the orchestras are calling to each other and sounds and textures go across your head from one to the other. This was to lead to his explorations of Octaphonic sound projection. It is basically an acoustic arrangement of the kind of sounds he was exploring electronically. The conductors should have worked everything out between themselves prior to rehearsals however. Its a fairly early work, skeletal compared to where he was going to end up.

To complete your thought, why not tell us what you *do* find "interesting, fulfilling, enlightening, or enjoyable?" Handel perhaps? Dvorak? Tchaikovsky? These are composers whose "best loved" 20 or so works each (e.g. the 'American Quartet" of AD, the Op. 6 of Handel, etc) are played over and over again on KUSC here in Los Angeles. That is to say, when KUSC isn't playing one of the last 8 or so symphonies of Mozart, or one of his worn out violin concertos. None of these are inherently "bad" works, but they've been played to death. This is why I rarely tune into KUSC anymore. BBC3 used to be an alternative, but much less so in the last year. Yesterday, however, BBC3 played a performance of Gruppen. A definite bright spot in their programming this week. Gruppen as performed here? Absolutely spell bound by it. More than that, it gives me hope that maybe the joy of music which I used to so frequently experience (before KUSC and like stations were "dumbed down" a few decades ago--- likewise today's major orchestra concert schedules) may still fill a few moments yet ahead of me.

well done well done! Well Done by the way really well done

I studied at the RCM too. One of the more depressing features there was the conservatism of many (good) players, who were not interested in expanding their horizons in the slightest, but only learning notes. Watching wind players moan about Stravinsky's 'Symphonies of Wind Instruments' was only one particularly idiotic example. So your attitude doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

I cannot help but think there is a sort of pretentiousness in the composers who write this stuff. When ADales writes about being required to "play the required single note - somewhere perhaps on the second half of the third beat of the bar", he/she is referring to the prospect of having to put the years of music training and time sacrifices into playing that single note which few would even hear or appreciate. It`s actually kind of insulting. Composers must keep the musicians in mind when writing music; after all they are the ones who have to perform it. That`s why a lot of jazz is so much fun because it`s written by jazz people for jazz people (Rob McConnell`s music is a total blast for musicians and audiences alike!) I bet pieces like Scales (also by this ensemble) was written with musicians in mind, too. So, why on earth did I click on Gruppen? I thought I`d give it another shot; I did....for about 5 minutes. I got bored.

spatiality.

+Garrett -- thanks for that answer. I can interpret that several ways. I suppose it is similar to having Quadraphonic stereo speakers instead of just 2?

In a proper performance the ochestras are placed so the audience is in the middle and all the interplay between is shooting back and forth across the auditorium.

It is also written out as different tempos for the different orchestras

Yes it is......

Q massa cara.

Agree!

Ha ha

which stockhausen did, in mantra - which doesn't in the least lessen the value in the present piece

Grande Ralph!

@@musik350 And, by the way, in his Zodiac pieces.

I wonder if your comment is just part of a bot army.

Mikhail Baryshnikov, definitely not John Travolta.

The conductors are constantly watching one another to maintain synchronization. Much of the time they are beating out the same meter, but at times the meters are different, in which case they have to be extra careful to hit certain beats at the same time. Basically, lots of practice and paying careful attention to one another.

David Roohy Thanks you very much!

The score.