KEF LS50 Meta vs Dynaudio Evoke 10

KEF LS50 Meta vs Dynaudio Evoke 10 - sound comparison

Рет қаралды 54,273

Күн бұрын

NEW FORMAT - read before watching the video!
If you like these videos and would like to see more, consider buying me a coffee :)
www.buymeacoffee.com/georgedomse
This time it's a bit different. Not only will I make chapters based on music styles rather than sound attributes, I ALSO INCLUDED A VIDEO CLIP to hear how the speakers behave when watching movies. I will further improve on this part of my videos.
The goal of my videos is still NOT to give you my opinion on these speakers. I do not wish to influence your buying decision. If you have any questions, feel free to write me a PM or just to comment on the video and I'll do my best to answer.
Enjoy!
0:00 Intro
0:10 KEF / Jazz
1:13 Dyno / Jazz
2:20 KEF / Blues
3:13 Dyno / Blues
4:02 KEF / Rock
5:08 Dyno / Rock
6:14 KEF / Acoustic
7:05 Dyno / Acoustic
7:58 KEF / Metal
9:21 Dyno / Metal
10:52 KEF / Pop
12:05 Dyno / Pop
13:31 KEF / Movie
14:17 Dyno / Movie

Пікірлер: 168

@connorduke4619 Жыл бұрын

Dynaudio has better bass texture, better midrange engagement and better treble decay. The KEF is not bad but the Dynaudio is excellent.

@Zoltan74 4 ай бұрын

I completely agree! Dynaudio produces a higher quality sound, a more open and beautiful sound!

@connorduke4619 4 ай бұрын

@@Zoltan74 Here are my Dynaudio Evoke 10s playing in my room - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l9pooqmnmNraenU.html

@91DivineAngel 2 ай бұрын

Realy? I hear the opposite. For me the mtas sound much more balance with a fuller sound

@connorduke4619 2 ай бұрын

@@91DivineAngel Perhaps we have different shaped ears!

@MichaelBeeny 9 ай бұрын

I am always amazed at this type of demonstration, because after all, you are listening to these speakers via YOUR speckers.

@bikemike1118 9 ай бұрын

And still you hear the differences to a certain degree….“strange“, isn’t it?! LOL

@roybrolsbeak 7 ай бұрын

And still here you are

@gerum009 6 ай бұрын

True, you may not get a true duplication of what you would hear from the speakers if you were to set them at your home. However, since you are sampling both speakers the same way (your home speakers or headphones) and you can definitely make a comparison.

@cmessi 5 ай бұрын

You are just not an audiophile.

@MichaelBeeny 5 ай бұрын

You are right, I know nothing about audio. Just 60 years working for Quad, Cambridge Audio, Monitor Audio Retail and manufacturing.@@cmessi

@hutopdehei Жыл бұрын

dynaudio are real high end speakers 🔥🔥🔥

@toho45 9 ай бұрын

Very impressive for both stand mount, each has its own credit points. The amplification is as important to have enough juice for both.

@harrisedgar Жыл бұрын

What a wonderful comparison....!!! Thank you..!!! (Dynaudio for me... BTW)

@perczeg Жыл бұрын

Ebben a setupban a KEF jobban teljesít, jobb az összkép, kiegyensúlyozottabb a hangkép, de... Tudjuk azt, hogy a HEGEl + KEF kombó verhetetlen. Amennyiben a Evoke 10 pl. egy Rega után van kötve, akkor mindjárt más a helyzet, szerintem. Tudom, két szettem van, egy Hegel + KEF kombó és egy Rega + Dynaudio. Köszönöm az összehasonlítást!

@juanfedericozapatasosa8501 8 ай бұрын

Excelente comparativa, ambas bocinas tienen su estilo y a mi punto de vista son excelentes, sin embargo en esta ocasión me inclino por las Dynaudio 10.🎉

@yvesboutin5604 3 ай бұрын

With the STING track it was obvious that his voice was stronger and a tiny bit projected on the Dynaudio. On the other hand, the KEF was smooth and balanced if a tad recessed. On long listening sessions I might prefer the KEF and the Dynaudio is more of an attention graber. Very fun video! Thanks!

@walterdel5490 2 ай бұрын

The Kef are not bad at all but dynaudio Evoke 10 takes the win. The improvement the bring is not small. If I have to choose a word to describe them would be “REAL”

@davidhunternyc1 Жыл бұрын

Listening to these speakers on my computer with my Master & Dynamic headphones the Dynaudio sounded more open and full. With the Dynaudio's, if it wasn't for the reverberations in the room, I would almost think that I was listening to the direct recording and not speakers. They would be my choice. I would love to hear a comparison between the Dynaudio Focus 10 vs. Devialet Phantom Gold ll. Your music selection was excellent, btw.

@dbronx347 Жыл бұрын

On this test, the Dynaudio wins for me on all genre except for Rock.

@melvinaperez2585 Жыл бұрын

Dynaudio Evoke 10, Way Better!!! Amazing imaging and Wider Soundstage. Keff a bit dull and boomy.

@MsBorhus Жыл бұрын

Hi, George! Hegel H95 + Evoke 10 Does it play just as well at low volume?

@weiwei2811 7 ай бұрын

both are great

@higobatman Жыл бұрын

What is the difference between the Evoke 10 and the 40S and the MA Gold100 5G?

@user-hx9zm9pl8q 10 ай бұрын

Dynaudio Evoke 10 is very natural and transparent, and the bass is also soft. LS seems to feel stuffy if you listen to it for a long time without knowing it.

@andrewlucan9017 Жыл бұрын

Just couldn't pick a clear winner between these two. Both nice speakers. On some tracks one would sound slightly better than the other and vice versa

@34332 Жыл бұрын

Nice comparison, thank you. For me the Dyno takes the cake, with the (silky) voice on the acoustic track and especially the movie part, very natural sounding (where I found the KEF slightly veiled, if that's even possible)😄 However, both sound great.

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

Indeed the KEF has a very slightly veiled character, which goes well with the livelier nature of the H95. Thus, the H120 is not a good match with the Metas. To my ears, the KEF is still a little bit better, just because of the slightly thicker midrange. I miss that from the Evoke10's. Maybe I should try the 20's.

@34332 Жыл бұрын

@@georgedomse I'm with you on that. Hard to beat the pointsource KEF on all accounts in the end, (presence, definition and outlining) but when the 20's provide more midrange 'beef', it could be a though call. Btw, great idea to add the movie part 👌 In your opinion, can the 10 go louder then the KEF, without breaking up?

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

@@34332 with the right amp, maybe. But don't forget, they are harder to drive (less sensitive, and they indeed need more juice to get to the same SPL). So you would need an amp that can provide 100W or more into 8 ohms without distorting. Having said that, none of the two is a party speaker. Limited woofer size and small box means rather a living room type of music listening.

@-MarkWinston- Жыл бұрын

How can the Meta be veiled? Sacrilege!!! I kid I kid... lol! Hey, got your 936s in yet Mike?

@34332 Жыл бұрын

@@-MarkWinston- Hi Mark, got everything in, Wharfedale out and went to a spotrepairshop that fixed the scratches on the Focal (magic what those guys can do). So today finally some initial and ad-hoc listening, but tomorrow the serious business. Paired them up to the Coda for now, holy cow, the room lit up... I can't even describe the change. It's not like listening to speakers, you're IN the studio or whatever performance. Couldn't turn them up full for now (or tweak position), but its like you described before, without a hint of edge, harshness etc. Incredible clear, detailed and full bodied. To counter possible room interference and a future sub, I ordered a MiniDSP flex. Well, for bass I'm not so sure if I need a sub anymore. They earthquaked quite good 😄 Still, tomorrow my reference tracks and see how that goes vs the 2502 etc.

@Andrew_Nekrasov 10 ай бұрын

that track with rock KEF sound cool, Dynaudio as if covered with a blanket

@edsonricardo5359 9 ай бұрын

Claramente, o som da Kef é mais aberto e fluido, tem mais informação. Kef é para sistemas poderosos e equilibrados.

@apmihai82 Жыл бұрын

hi George, i am betting you still like the LS50M more? These are quite different sound signatures. Ive never heard DYnaudios in person, but would you find them too laid back?

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

I would not describe the Dynos as laid back, at least not with the Hegel. The Evoke10's are pretty neutral, with a bit of liveliness in the upper midrange/lower highs, which makes the mids sound a tiiiny bit thin for my taste. The KEF's win in this regard for me, thus I will keep the Metas, yes. Having said that, this is very much room dependent - your mileage may vary.

@fanclub670 Жыл бұрын

Dynaudio is incredible !!

@Homeaudionl Жыл бұрын

Love ❤️ those dynaudio speakers way more pin point accuracy, more even spread off the stage 👍, i also would love the same playlist via AirPlay or a separate streamer/dac combo because dnla is not the best protocol for music 😊. Keep up the good videos

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

I don't really like Airplay tbh, it has a 2-3 second lag that I do not experience with DLNA. As for an external streamer - yes, it would sound most probably different, but tbh I am fine with the Hegel's internal one. Was one of the reasons to get this amp in the first place. But hey, if you guys start 'buying me a coffee' (see description) I will be glad to intorduce a quality streamer to the chain.

@janulik9535 6 ай бұрын

How did you get to conclusion dyn is more acurate than kef? By watching this video?

@knottymatt Жыл бұрын

Dynaudios smash the KEFs imo. Great insightful mids and not overly bright highs like the KEF.

@redcapote4760 8 ай бұрын

Dynaudio clear winner. That texture with vocals. That midrange. Better detail.

@densyoh Жыл бұрын

Evoke 10 signature hands down (or up😅)

@carmelovillena6174 2 ай бұрын

The dynojoe has a great texture kef open sounds😊

@El_white_horse Жыл бұрын

Dynaudio all the way !!!

@wenhaagen6891 Жыл бұрын

I have had the LS50 at home, not the big thing for me compared to the Evoke 10. The E10s are brilliant with my Advance Acoustic x-i125. The Kefs are too laid back. The Evokes have more vim and punch and a great open midrange sound!

@RP-rw6jj 9 ай бұрын

I agree based on this video using my best headphones.

@rustypipe Жыл бұрын

How does Hegel H95 drives Dynaudio at lower volumes? Also what kind of feet are you using under the both units?

@steveee2511 Жыл бұрын

what version of take five is that

@VinnieMoore1986 Жыл бұрын

DYNAUDIO 🎼🎼🎼🎼👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼

@balooo2863 8 ай бұрын

I tested the LS 50 meta against the Dynaudio Emit 20 and the 20’s sound much more dynamic all around better presentation and 30% lower cost. I retuned the meta’s,the Emit 20 just keep getting better with time. Stand mount that performs like a tower. Do yourselves a favor and check out the Emit 20 they are a serious sleeper speaker and are an absolute steal. I truly believe they are a loss leader product for Dynaudio being heavily marketed to the developing markets as a gateway to the brand. How many reviews etc do you hear about them? I love KEF I also own the R3 which I use in another room so no brand bias here…

@if6was929 7 ай бұрын

What do you think of the R3's?

@balooo2863 7 ай бұрын

@@if6was929 I've owned the R3's for 2 years now and they are a fantastic speaker if you can grab a pair at the current discount do so.They are in a open floor plan room with 20 ft ceilings and fill the space no problem (driven with a Parasound A23+ amp). I am seriously considering taking the R3 meta's for a test drive...Love KEF but I meant what i said about the Emit 20's they are truly a steal.

@heliopijpe Жыл бұрын

Not even close, the Evoke have so much more audio information (air and resolution), then again the price reflects. The LS50 are overpriced, but decent wrongly marketed nearfields with a narrow sweet spot. The Evoke is a beautiful speaker, there is depth and natural tonality, midrange, it's impossible to judge the treble, but the fact I can discern air and seperation from a KZfaq demo, means it does more than just project clarity .. I would invest my money on the Evoke

@jofragoso6050 4 ай бұрын

Without hesitation, i would take them Dynaudio evoke 10👍

@ttmurakami8082 Жыл бұрын

私はKEF LS50が気に入りました。

@davidpitaud3034 2 ай бұрын

Very good demo 😉 for me Dynaudio first…

@RP-rw6jj 9 ай бұрын

This is almost a night and day comparison when listening through my good headphones and when listening through my QUAD speakers. Dynaudio Evoke 10 is nicer sounder than KEF LS50 in every way. The extra $100+/- higher price of the Dynaudio Evoke 10 is a bargain in terms of price to sound ratio.

@thelowprofile9767 Жыл бұрын

The Dyna is more weighty which I prefer.

@zach2954 Жыл бұрын

Definitely. I find them more complementary. LS50 Metas: Thicker forward vocal, but lacking body. Dyn: Neutral but with body.

@hclandscapes Жыл бұрын

Which one do you prefer? I used to have the ls50 meta but I changed them them for the new Dynaudio emit 30’s as I wanted more bass output but didn’t want a subwoofer so small Floorstanders were the best option for me. I really like the laid back sound of Dynaudio, I think the new Emits have the same esotar tweeter as the Evokes.

@mauriciojv7901 Жыл бұрын

Neither one has Esotar tweeters.

@hclandscapes Жыл бұрын

@@mauriciojv7901 I meant cerotar hexis dome tweeter

@mauriciojv7901 Жыл бұрын

@@hclandscapes That´s right

@mattia_599 Жыл бұрын

Dynaudio!

@tianshiwang3572 10 ай бұрын

If you were there A/B tested both, within one minute you can tell how evoke 10 better the Kef ls50 meta.

@vuulam7142 6 ай бұрын

How about accuphase E280 + Evoke 20? Does anyone tell me more?

@phpn99 Жыл бұрын

Listening to this on my 50 dollar speaker. Tell me ; why is the A/C plug so high on the wall ? Some sort of audiophile voodoo ? I notice the super fat audiophile power cord ; important to make sure your 230V is super clean and that cable will sure do it.

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

Absolutely. That cord is almost as fat as your momma.

@musiconvinylisbetter.1449 2 ай бұрын

Yes, you need clean electricity. The higher you put the plug the more current you get.

@zach2954 Жыл бұрын

IMO: LS50 Metas win with more acoustic and intimate music. Evoke has a bit more "space" and has smoother sound.

@LeonardoRibeiroUFRJ_CCS 9 ай бұрын

Para mim, ganha em tudo, inclusive no design e elegância.

@rog86 Жыл бұрын

I couldnt figure out a winner. At the stsrt i thoight the metas wiped the floor with the dyns, and then i thoight the dyns were better for other genres. So, ive bo idea... :)

@Freedom89984 3 ай бұрын

They are mostly comparable, just little differences but not by much. The Dynaudio’s are 3 times the price of the Kef’s. A no brainer if you ask me.

@MiccaPhone 7 ай бұрын

It is clearly audible and visible that the KEF LS50 has the better marketing.

@kamellaiche3719 Жыл бұрын

Kef,👍

@nebojsagrujovic3709 6 ай бұрын

Dynaudio has mid bass emphasis and colored sound. Kef is obvious winner here but with right amplification choice which should not sound lean and bright.

@francktrapy6735 Жыл бұрын

a rapport a des emit 20???

@LeonardoRibeiroUFRJ_CCS 9 ай бұрын

Kef é mais versátil e refinada. Fato.

@LeonardoRibeiroUFRJ_CCS 9 ай бұрын

Onde está os pedestais das Dynaudios?

@georgedomse 9 ай бұрын

Sold separately for a fortune.

@tianshiwang3572 Жыл бұрын

Evoke 10 sounds better. Also compared side by side with ls50 meta years ago. 🎉

@LeonardoRibeiroUFRJ_CCS 9 ай бұрын

Kef wins ❤❤❤ Natural e mais articulada!

2 ай бұрын

Test the Ls 50 meta with good positioning and a high quality subwoofer.. you won't believe your ears.. (Rel T5zero + measured room acoustics settings)

@bogdantirea6085 6 ай бұрын

No way to compare ... Good work Please post for Marantz model pls. TY

@LeonardoRibeiroUFRJ_CCS 9 ай бұрын

Dynaudio para os populares...

@williamjueschke9960 Жыл бұрын

At first I said I liked the Kef’s but listening again I’m not sure.

@Marius.1926 Жыл бұрын

ciao puoi dirmi per favore cosa usi sotto gli altoparlanti

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

The speaker feet are made of steel with a ceramic ball bearing between the two layers. These specific ones are made locally, called Vibra-r, but Isoacoustics etc make similar ones.

@Marius.1926 Жыл бұрын

@@georgedomse i bay isoacoustics mini bat the ls 50 is not stable. I not feel safe with kits in the house :)

@user-ge9rw6ug3c 5 ай бұрын

Why it is not Kef LS50 meta Vs Dynaudio Evoke 20 ?

@georgedomse 5 ай бұрын

Send them to me, and I'll be glad to do a comparison. I also can keep them afterwards.

@MrKevinRance Жыл бұрын

What is the Blues song?

@eronay18 Жыл бұрын

Feel Like Going Home - Hans Theessink

@MrKevinRance Жыл бұрын

@@eronay18 thanks, this song comes through perfectly on the Dynaudio’s

@budsmoker4201120 3 ай бұрын

Is it just me but the more I hear the kef50s the more I don't like. Great video

@rubensresende6148 4 ай бұрын

Dynaudio bem mais orgânico; é para quem busca som real e não pirotecnia. A demonstração na cena do filme deixa completamente evidente quem manda nessa comparação. Diálogos muito mais convicentes no Dynaudio

@higobatman Жыл бұрын

Aqui tem uma comparação interessante entre as Evoke 20 e Evoke 10. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l8uHoc5qzd_cnKs.html As Evoke 20 possuem um som mais claro e neutro. As Evoke 10 são mais quentes. Fora os graves com mais peso e massa nas Evoke 20. Fora que cavam, descem bem mais fundo nos graves.

@thebestoffools Жыл бұрын

The KEFs have more personality like that bubbly girl at work that talks loud with her high pitched voice whereas the Dynaudios are more reserved like the guy in HR that is more phlegmatic but will always give you the facts.

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

Love the metaphor!

@francisdelacruz6439 Жыл бұрын

Class A with Kef takes it higher. For well recorded music may be good enough for many though the amp source much more expensive than the speakers.

@MALI1185 Жыл бұрын

Quik question 4u: what speaker stands are u using in this video?

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

Norstone Stylum 2.

@HungryEatNow Жыл бұрын

Your sofa is that high?

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

What do you mean? The speakers sit on 60cm stands. Absolutely standard.

@Hoogduin1 2 ай бұрын

The Dyno wins, much more natural

@shuckylad Жыл бұрын

Dynaudio for me. Kefs sound quite poor in comparison especially the Adele vocal.

@wernermensink193 Жыл бұрын

Exactly my thought as well. I found it quite hard to hear a clear difference between the two, but Adele made the Dynaudio easily stand out above the KEF.

@typedeaf 4 ай бұрын

Wasnt a noticable differnce to my ears. I think Dynaudio owners/fans seem to have better ears than mine, because they hear something that I dont.

@audiojunior174 Жыл бұрын

KEF more detailed and delineated, the superior quality of the KEF moves away and is even more evident in the HI-HAT of YES' music, they just don't exist in Dynaudio...

@LeonardoRibeiroUFRJ_CCS 9 ай бұрын

Exatamente!

@LeonardoRibeiroUFRJ_CCS 9 ай бұрын

Com essa eletrônica não vai, a Kef precisa coisa bem melhor.

@teokon5165 Жыл бұрын

Dynaudio

@igorfridrich1070 4 ай бұрын

Of course dynaudio. 😉 and sonetto 1 is even better

@bencausey Жыл бұрын

Man, wish you would’ve told us how they compare sound wise. A recording of the playback of a recording is not how speakers actually sound. 😒

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

Sorry, that is irrelevant, really. First of all, I'm not out to give you my opinion because the gear may make a 180 in your system and be completely different. My room, my ears (that are "half-deaf" from playing in metal bands for 2 decades, I have no hearing above 14kHz at all), my taste... I wouldn't want to mislead you. Also, this channel is no buying or any kind of hifi-advice. It's merely the documentation of my hifi journey. Something rather personal that became public. But, as I stated many times, if you guys decide to support me in any way (lending me stuff, Patreon, buymeacoffee - link in the desc.) this may change. For now, this is all I can offer or have time for.

@RichardPeterShon Жыл бұрын

definitely dynaudio

@trungnc5487 11 ай бұрын

I own 50ls2 but do not like it. It sounding not tie to my any headphones. Clarity and airy is not reach level of my internal speaker of LG HU85LS projector!

@f.troiani5937 Жыл бұрын

Evokes get a slight edge

@rikardb5855 Жыл бұрын

KEF look like computer speakers. They pup up in many comparison video but do anyone buy them 🤔

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

A lot of people like them for their sound and also for their modern look. I had three pair already.

@rikardb5855 Жыл бұрын

@@georgedomse they sound good but the design fitz in a gaming room 😉 or iam.old school now again

@juanmillaruelo7647 Жыл бұрын

They sell like hot cakes, and are sold on as users move on in their audio journeys. The precision of the guitar plucks, for instance, is fascinating. Evokes are more rounded speakers, when all aspects are factored in they are better. But many people love the LS50m analytical sound (with or without a sub)

@matgxs1 2 ай бұрын

Kef meilleure

@y.k.9705 Жыл бұрын

It looks good ecstatically but speakers shouldn't be boxed in like this.

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

Fancy buying me a new house?

@oluhamilton2121 6 ай бұрын

Dynaudio more texture

@loneronta 10 ай бұрын

I don't say kef is the best of the best. But Dyna are very boring speakers. They are for sounding listeners, not for music listeners. Sory but I think so cause reading comments. I prefer here kef speakers.

@naomedigafrivolidade Жыл бұрын

kef ok and dyna is better

@Audfile 10 ай бұрын

"Evocative" of a better speaker. Lol cheeky marketing.

@mcvlot 6 ай бұрын

Sorry, for me the KEF sound like they are playing through a toilet tube. I must have some problem in my ears, others do not seem to hear it.

@zvonimirtosic6171 2 ай бұрын

KEFs are so slow and inert they can play Take Five only in 4/4, not in 5/4.

@claudioguarnaccia317 Жыл бұрын

Come fai ad ascoltare musica con una rifrazione del genere….. tanto vale ascoltarle in chiesa…

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

1: try to learn a bit about microphone acoustics and come back later 2: you don't have to listen to this video. You are welcome to leave. 3: ever noticed this is not an italian channel? So do us all a favor and learn some languages. 4: the room has been measured and acoustically treated better than 90% of all rooms out there. Maybe get your ears checked?

@kanewisesa923 Жыл бұрын

For me, kef ls50 sounds nasal and/or cupped with voices. Dynaudio all the way

@LeonardoRibeiroUFRJ_CCS 9 ай бұрын

Absolutamente o contrário kkkkkk

@TheRockerxx69 6 ай бұрын

too bassy---I love a more trans parent sound----I COULD LOVE THE MAGNAPLANAR----yes dynaudio are better--a bit less forward BTW

@snowfiend_8062 10 ай бұрын

Dynaudio for the win. Much richer low end.

@radon222u 9 ай бұрын

This KEF is nowhere near this Dynaudio

@cagdasboztemir1206 8 ай бұрын

This kef s speaker dont give hihat voice

@janulik9535 6 ай бұрын

No sense comments almost all top to bottom

@j.t.4303 Жыл бұрын

How are we supposed to compare hifi speakers recorder by some weird equipment and played through a KZfaq video, and a smartphone or computer speakers ? Totally useless.

@34332 Жыл бұрын

You're free to leave, goodbye!

@georgedomse Жыл бұрын

Frst of all, thanks for giving me a view nonetheless. Secondly, if you would be paying ANY attention to what you watch you would know that this channel was never intended for anyone else but myself, documenting what I hear for MYSELF for later reference. I stated that at least a dozen times already, and it's in most of my video descriptions as well. But yeh JT, feel free to spit nonsense in your comments :)

@snakeobias Жыл бұрын

it’s not accurate, but you can get a decent understanding of what the sound signatures present on the speakers. This can help you narrow down your choice when you go shopping on your own terms, or even attempt to “blind buy”.l a pair.

@34332 Жыл бұрын

@@snakeobias I'm under the impression JT thinks we are listening on our smartphone/PC speaker, like he stated 😄

@snakeobias Жыл бұрын

@@34332 actually I was. I was up late at night and couldn't sleep, but didn't want to use my stereo/headphones hehe. I normally don't listen to demos on iphone speakers though