As a fan of L5R, I’d like to point out that they later released “Premium Expansions” expansions that not only include more cards than basic expansions, but include full play sets of every card, and include a box insert that can store a bunch of cards. This pisses me off cause it makes it clear that FFG knows how to design a product like this, they just decided not to for the core sets.

Imagine if there were no vultures and you lose the government mandated lottery to go eat dead stuff in the forest.

Our new currency should just be Yugioh Decks.

I give you a big thumbs up for including "gut feeling" as a deck building strategy.

ECG can have less cards per year than TCGs, because ECGs don't have to include pack filler.

Sometimes, even TCGs interact with this design space. Consider the Yugioh Speed Duel Battle City Box, designed for an eight player draft tournament, or MTG's Unsanctioned set. Fans loved the Battle City Box, as it was a complete game by itself, could make competitive decks for constructed if you bought a couple, and all of the cards were the same every time, except for a few holographic cards which were just holographic versions of cards already in the set.

Another important design consideration is with an ECG, you don't really make much in the way of filler or introductory cards. Your starter set pulls that weight for you, while a TCG like Magic has to be printing lots of simple commons for new players in their boosters. Its a lot more like making exclusively the rares/beyond rares once you start looking at expansions unless you're doing something radical that introduces a whole new way to play a given class/faction or introducing a new one, in which case you need to make some more basic designs.

I am proud to be the 5th person to have purchased the Kohdok Box of Junk

Interesting timing on this, Fantasy Flight just announced a revised Arkham Horror box that has all the cards needed to support 4 players playing the game at once as well as some general fixes to make the packaging better

We need a full version of the spider clan theme song!!!!

I don't know if you are able to do this, but have you thought of an errata text episode on how to do a TCG tournaments from locals to sanctioned events? Sounds like a great idea to look into.

Using the Yu-Gi-Oh! Decks as the metric is both funny and really sound; I loved yugioh starter decks because they were both so cheap and I recognized the value in buying several

"I'll make my own subscription junkbox! With blackjack! And hookers!" is actually a way better idea than anyone's giving you credit for. Good luck!!!

I dont know about you but i like the idea of collecting EVERY card of LCG costs less than a starting hand of competitive MTG deck or an extra deck of Yugioh deck

From what I understand, the Marvel LCG starter doesn't have the "incomplete contents" problem. Also, Arkham Horror is getting a "revised" starter box, and while I don't know any specifics, it would not surprise me if they fixed that problem. Of course, it would also not surprise me it they changed nothing. Addendum: did anyone else think this was going to be about how FFG erratas cards and never reprints them with the new text? I don't want to have to print out a PDF to know what cards do.

So two things: 1.Marvel Champions does in fact have a full playset of cards, so that statement within the video is incorrect. 2.Ashes was built with draft in mind at the forefront, and with only 1 card per Phoenixborn being locked to them, literally any card besides those can be used with any other Phoenixborn.

I feel like Android: Netrunner had a good core set. £34 for enough cards for six decks, three corp, three runner. There was a decent variety, and whilst there weren't complete playsets, there were still dupes of cards and it played well

It would be cool if keyforge decks came with some (3 or 4) "reserve cards" that you could use to swap out with other cards, to spice up how an individual deck plays without ruining the power scale of the deck

Hey, Kohdok, I dig all the production work that's been going into your recent videos. Content has long been stellar, and I appreciate the presentation leveling up, too. Hope your channel keeps growing, man!

Finally understand the mean g of those letters, and considering what I'm doing and planning think I must focus my efforts as an ECG rather than a TCG

Great video, I can finally stop bugging you about these types of games. Hopefully one day I will be able to send you the ECG I'm working on.

I’m glad you mentioned cube. For most tcgs you can build your own cube and then it’s a personalized lgc. Also there’s more to cube than draft. I consider Killer Bunnies to be a cube. I know several people who play MTG in a single deck like KB.

I love that you keep using the Mitos y leyendas tournament B-roll. Pretty sure that footage is from 2002-03 and its very nostalgic to me.

I like the direction that FFG has finally landed on with Marvel Champions and I think a lot of their player-base does as well. So much that they have announced that they will be doing something very similar with Arkham Horror LCG (yes the board game vs card game naming convention is less than ideal). I also appreciate that this space exists because I think it serves as a good on/off ramp for the TCG space.

I hope you do more listings of box of junk! $20 to be amused at cards from numerous TCGs I’ve never heard of seems like fun and I was disappointed that the listing has since ended.

Bruh I’m dying at the edited bits and the singing! XD

I just don’t think that joe off the street is going to suddenly be into Arkham horror the card game and accidentally purchase the board game. I feel that scenario is incredibly unlikely

As always, a fantastic video! Love em.

Great video! I don't know when you recorded this, but White Wizard Games has rebranded as Wise Wizard Games because a lot of people missed the LOTR reference and jumped to bad conclusions.

cool, the series is back

Related product question brought on by the last few minutes: What ARE your thoughts on things like cubes? I know some MTG sites sell pre-made cubes with specific lists, so do you treat those in the same way as an expandable card game practically?

Res Arcana does a really good cube impression, I find.

Nevermind crypto yugioh starter decks will be used as the dominant currency.

This video was very informative, i am developing a card gme and the method of distribution is one of the things im not fully sold on yet. My game ill have roughly 100 cards at the start and does not require a lot of stuff...so i wonder where it fits better.

That spider clan song made me spit-take my water. Excellent job.

In defense of Arkham LCG (of which I am admittedly a massive fan) they are releasing a new core set with full playsets and a better box.

One of the kinda funny things about watching this playlist is that I have realized that a Fandom's small TCG really would have benefited from being an ECG maybe with Draft options

Oh my GOD I had no idea there were "deckbuilders". That is EXACTLY what I want. Thank you!

Even Vanguard learned this lesson that FFG not learned with their LCG intro sets

And surprised you didn't go into Millenium Blades with this video.

Oh god, way to tempt me with the box of junk. I too am a collector of obscure TCG stuff

New favorite KZfaqr

Quick q for all what do you think can be the smallest deck size a card game can have and still be competitive ?

Arkham Horror is releasing a revised core set soon, although I don't know if it includes dupes, a bag or better storage inserts.

what do you think of the VS System 2pcg? And do you think that it as a system could be translated to a trading card game again but with a different theme

Any chance we could get your thoughts on the Marvel Champions LCG? Its very popular at my local game store and you used clips from ads for it in this video.

Android Netrunner (lcg) had all these problems and had players have 2 decks on hand for any game, as well as staple cards for multiple decks in supplement products, making several mandatory in multiples for competitive play... So it also had a secondary market despite the non random packs.

Here are my nitpicks, great video! LCG's (or CCGs) being a more ethical distribution method is entirely separate from FFG attempting to coin the term. It's like saying (incredibly hypothetically) the red cross attempting to coin medicine names is as unethical as medical scalping because medical scalpers also coined medicine names. CCG's have draft play and making cubes is just as feasible as in a TCG. The core set argument is absolutely solid, glad many games don't do this. however, 120$ for the three set gives you much more than 1 deck (in the case of YuGiOh) and people often times spend FAR more money to get a good deck in a TCG. The secondary market is more of a nightmare than you make it out to be (seeing as, among other things, injuries and exclusion have resulted from it), and low budget players are at a greater disadvantage in TCGs. (This one is super pedantic) I have always disagreed with you definition of a card game, as a game where cards and deckbuilding are clearly the focus seems more in line with the spirit of the term even if it comes with tracking peripherals and such. I agree on the sentiment you commonly give that you like it when those peripherals are limited though. The complaint that an IP has similar design in various incarnations is fairly moot unless one is unable to read the words "Card Game" on any given web page or box they see. More variance would be nice I suppose but the idea that someone may buy the wrong thing despite the numerous indicators otherwise is not an issue with the game. It is an issue with a 14+ year olds abysmal reading. Frankly, you were being a goober and it was silly of you to confuse a box that says "card game" in legible text with one that does not and has a different box back. Your magic talks never include the caveat that one may confuse the battle of the plainswalkers game with a booster set. Absolutely right on the storage front. All games should come with storage for sleeved cards. Buying the sets does give you more than just the cards for your current deck, but I'd argue that giving players a huge playground of decks is good! You've spent the same money as one would on a competitive deck for THAT OTHER GAME but you have the tools for eight or more. It keeps it fresh and comes almost as a bonus to making your top deck. Lack of rarity is a good thing, imo. Sorry to people that like spending hundreds of dollars on shiny cardboard, the outdated trappings and predatory market that comes with random packs is not justified by the fact that some cards are shinier. Especially because nice full art cards can be given as tourney rewards and such. Loved the video, keep up the good work!

how about level 99 pixel tactics or millennium blades? or the grand daddy android netrunner?

I disagree with the idea that "LCG being a trademark" is any sort of knock against the model. Hell, magic trademarked TCG, and that hasn't stopped hundreds of competitors from using the model, for better or for worse. Yes, you cannot call your game an LCG if you're not FFG. But you can still make an LCG and use its benefits. Just because FFG doesn't use the model ethically doesn't make the model intrinsically less ethical than the TCG model.

A workaround to a huge box and few expansions would be to make small expansions regularly based around synergy or playability. Push out a red and a blue expansion on January then a black and a green of February. Or a tribal set with all cards that say 'dark magician' or "blue eyes white dragon" on them. That way you can buy cards in a logical assortment, either by 'you probably want to play all these cards together' or 'you can only pick a color, so you get cards of only that color' Maybe go even further, in a commander style game (where you have a build around card that you always have access to) make so a micro expansion always has a commander and have a bunch of cards that interact namely with it. Make it a 30+1 card expansion with 15 splash-able cards and 15 commander synergy cards and a commander for 30+1 card game. You have a suggested shell of 15 cards for your commander and 15 general utility cards that can be swapped for other sets utility cards, you get a playable deck in a slim, low buy in package, with incentives to keep buying for new commander archetypes or utilities for your old commander.

I've been developing a card game for the last decade and your videos have always been very helpful. Thank you!

The other reason ECG's have less cards is because they shouldn't* contain the draft chaff bad cards that are purposefully put in MTG packs. *Warning: Designers are always worse than the community at understanding how good the cards are.

Also I am literally playing final fantasy 10 right now and I'm pretty positive you're playing their music and I love it.

I wish you had explained more what "cube" CG´s are. Maybe give more examples of what it would be? I just saw a bunch of random black sleeved cards on screen and now im slightly confused haha

I'd always thought Magic only ever used "Collectible Card Game" and it was other companies using TCG just to be different.

Box of Junk didn’t even last one day, but I was going to be disappointed you didn’t go into ECGs till I looked at the timer bar.

I've been collecting the Lord of the rings lcg in a binder for over a year. There might not be a rarity system but where I live its hard to find all the expansions and the cards look nice in a binder.

Any recommendations on ECG? I like the idea and I would like to try the format with my wife, but she tends to be really special about the kind of games she wants to play so more options I have the more likely she is to like one of the options. I'm finding it really hard to find anything on Google since I keep getting sent back to LCG and Fantasy Flight Games and I don't fell like those games are the best fit for us. Thanks a lot in advance to any good soul with good recommendations that would take the time to answer me 😊☺

Is it possible to run serious organized play tournaments for expandable card games?

Oh shoot, this is the sort of game I'm making. I have tentative plans to include booster packs in the future, but that is more of a way to have draft (which I have a soft spot for) and a way to foil up people's decks if they want to. But that is moreso for after I actually have the game in a kinda balanced state that I'm comfortable selling. The basis is exactly the constructed decks with none of the randomness so people can get into the game easily. Though I just consider it an arena card game due to the way the game plays.

Im surprised you didnt touch on Net Runner which was the first exposure to this genre for myself and many many others.

17:20 Okay, I want to add for those who say "Oh, but this would include Legendary cards, which you can only have on in play". 1. You can still have 4 on each deck 2. That literally means nothing in terms of the sheer size of a 4-way deck.

I’m making a game but I don’t know if I should make it a lcg(that works), an ecg, or a tcg.

that DQ music was an unexpected treat. 10:24

To be fair, I fit quite a few expansions for Netrunner in the box's standard insert before changing to a third party, and the new Marvel Champions box has a very large space.

I strongly recommend the game Millenium Blades. it is a TCG Simulator, and I can't do justice to it in a KZfaq comment, but its an amazing game with a focus on replicating the cube/prerelease feel

I would love to get my hands in one of those junk boxes, but the fact that the cost of shipping would be higher than the box itself is kind of making me think twice.

No idea if you'll ever read this, but with the news of the drastic downsize of the Legends of Runaterra, and the talks about how it couldn't ever get to a point of economic sustainability, I remembered this video What if LoR was always a ECG with an identity crisis, with not even their creator realizing that's what they were creating Do you think that that is a correct assessment of the situation? And even if it's not, what are your thoughts on launching an electronic ECG, could something like that ever work?

Excellent vid kohdok

I think a good idea is for people who make card games to when the stuff rotates out build a box of every card with 3-4 of each card in the set in it. Sure it would allow everyone to eventually get into another version of older formats but it would also allow them to sell product later for older sets so another market such as people who like a single block and format can constantly buy the product and have it for their own draft cubes and such. Hell you could also make it gold bordered like they do in magic and pokemon (silver) so they aren't tournament legal and allow that market specifically besides table top players to thrive more easily.

I do like the idea of an ECG. I like building decks, playing them once or twice (unless I really really like them) and then trying something else. That's way easier to do (at least IRL) when all the cards can be acquired at a reasonable price. I might look into the genre and see if there's one I like... if playing a card game IRL becomes feasible for me. Nearest game shop is a bit of a drive, and I don't have nearby friends or family who even LIKE card games.

Please do a full cover of the Spider Clan song, I just love it!!!!

Man it’s not available I wanted a kohdok box of junk

nit: the Marvel Champions Core Set contains a complete playset of everything in the box.

Any chance you could review legends of runeterra?

Do you think you have enough to talk about playset size to warrant an episode? Really interested in how singleton compares vs multiple card playsets.

7:11 has anyone told Kohdok about the battle city box

That spider clan song is SO GOOD

I started cheering why kodok mentioned the Lovecraft's creatures by name, in his mad rant.

I think ff's version of l5r also ran into the problem of having mostly unmixable attributes (there are seven clans and you can only bring a very small quantity of cards from another clan) and just the sheer AMOUNT of cards you need to play. you play with not one, but *two* 40 card/3 card limit decks, meaning you have to put in at least 14+14=28 different cards, plus the stronghold and province cards - and that's for a SINGLE clan. you can see why 280 cards per year just won't cut it - it is essentially the cardfight vanguard problem all over again (I know, comparing these two hurt my soul as well)

I'm late to the party but Ashes Reborn actually has a subscription model of sorts that encourages continued content

The revised core set for Arkham Horror will come with a complete play set and a token bag.

I love the Jumping Spider cameo

For all these narrow complaints, the LCG model is still better. Mocking how "ethical" it is doesn't erase the fact that it literally is more ethical for not hiding mandatory game pieces behind gambling

4:20 RIP to L5R for a second time.

I have a question about the competitive side of LCGs (i do mean FFG games). Let's say your example of Legend of the Five Rigns. If i buy the 3 boxes needed, do i have a competitive deck there? because 120 dollars is less than a standard mtg deck or a new Yugioh deck (looking at you Forbidden Droplet) which doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.

How in the actual hell does "Core" legally mean 1/5 of the absolute minimum needed to play? When I buy anything with the "Core" word on it with Magic the Gathering I get; everything needed to build a deck, extra cards in form of boosters, a countdown die, enough lands of every color to build a deck consisting of only lands, and a kiss on the cheek from the curator... What do I get from an LCG "Core"? A half eaten apple, 2 dead mice and 6 cards that don't function together.

I've been binging your videos and haven't heard you mention anything about the My Little Pony CCG. Have you played it? Seen it? Planned on talking about it?

Never heard ECG but i knew the concept and i love it

I’m designing a card game and though hey, let’s look at some Kohdok videos. And then you say there is no Cube TCG… I laugh hard, it’s exactly what was on my mind and what I’m executing on right now 😂

Don’t know if it counts but I really like Smash Up, wasn’t expensive, expansions aren’t pricey and literally any deck can be used together regardless if they’re a good combination or not. It’s the thing that got me into these kinds of games

Intro felt like welcome to nightvelle or however you spell that podcast

The binding of Isaac four souls come is this style of game isn't it?

Disappointed by l5r is was thinking about getting that. Maybe if I can get them cheap

So, with "Mystic Cube" what sort of game would it be? I'm a Magic player with experience with Magic Cube Drafts but I've not done such with other games. So what I'm picturing would be some with five "colors/clans/factions/social groups" each with their own type of resource and play style that *are not* exclusive but might not play well together. If you weren't using "any card as resource" then you'd also need to include basic resources that DON'T get drafted alongside the other cards, but that's fine since Deck Building Games (which I LOVE and have A LOT of experience with) tend to do that with their "coin", or equivalent, cards. What is the _core_ of a Cube Draft? How could you make an ECG sort of game that capitalized on that feeling. Not something I've ever thought of before... .

Millennium Blades is kind of like a Cube ECG if you haven't checked that out before - it's by Level 99 Games.

A lot of the card games that are neither deck builders nor drafting games with additional components I consider as "Modern Card Games", though not all games that feature cards as a 'central component' would be such (Machi Koro, Space Base, elder sign, and Power Grid: The Card game). Pretty much, any card game 'that does not use a traditional playing card deck', like Mille Bornes, Flinch, and Uno, would be considered as such, even if Flinch is over a century old now. Box size is not part of the definition thanks to some MCGs using larger boxes or tins like AEG's one off printing of Phase (Black Box 2016) or Sushi Go (Party). Phase had the LCG problem and said it was best for each player to bring their own box and make their decks before play. Sadly, it was never available as a stand alone game or pack after 2016. As a habitual sleever thanks to my time in MTG as a high schooler (in 2000-2002) as well as being disappointed in marking cards from shuffling because some games' quality went down the toilet, I'd rather have the trench rather than the plastic insert as the vast plurality of plastic inserts are not made with sleeves in mind. Though, I've been trying to deckbox games that use more 'traditional' sized cards (like Lords of Waterdeep's cards are MTG sized while many FFG's 'green cards' are sized to the 'old playing card standard' before Poker sized cards (MTG sized) took over in the wake of the poker revolution. I do my best to keep the plastic insert if I can, but that goes out the window once I start combining games into boxes (Pandemic's insert in On the Brink and In the Lab will NOT support a fully expanded version of Pandemic). One of the best plastic inserts is Point Salad, where the 2 channels were large enough to support all 120 cards after sleeving and it had a good box size to fit the insert. Of course, yeah, most of this falls into 'board game problems'. The worst 'insert' I've encountered was the 'made for shipping insert' for Dungeon's 2014 and beyond printing, where it was only made to hold the pack of cards in the middle of the box while they were still wrapped.

Good video but why didn’t you do the better card game from fantasy flight LCG like Game Of Thrones for example?

Of course none of those things really have to be how it works though.