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"Level 20 is good on paper." Good thing D&D is on paper

I am a dungeon master and I enjoy level 20 characters because I like being able to throw at them WHATEVER I want

Personally, level 20 games can become fun for the dm in the moment you stop throwing monsters at the players and instead you start throwing other parties at them.

To loosely quote the PHB: Levels 1-4: Apprentice Adventurers Levels 5-10: Defenders of kingdoms and cities Levels 11-16: Saviors of regions, even continents Levels 17-20: Literally the fundamental order of the multiverse hangs in your hands. You're the heroic archetype, or you've become the villain. Literally what the book says. ...so yeah. Levels 11-20 are for superhero movies.

We all know he only wants to get to level 3 anyway, this was obvious

“But you’ll probably never reach level 20. You either die from your own fireball or killed by your pissed off allies who were caught in your fireball.” -Jocat

When we reached lvl 20 back in my day, we started travelling the planes, and killed everything we didn't like. It was glorious.

My dream for a dnd campaign is to start at level 1 and finish the whole campaign at level 20 and have the characters go down in the history of the world

Next XP to Level 3 video: Dice are dumb (D&D) *Jacob slides up from a leather couch, dice pouring from his mouth*

"Rogues, probably the simplest class at level 20" Tough talk for someone within stroke of luck sneak attack distance

Giving monster class levels seems like a good way to up the stakes in higher level campaigns. It's one thing to focus down a dragon that breathes fire. It's another to fight the dragon's horde of draconic kobold sorcerors who all know fireball and can fly.

Xp: "lvl 20 sucks" Me who plays in epic groups where we go to 40: *sweats*

The most fun I've had with a lvl 20 character was not playing them. My lvl 20 Bard, named Jack, became the God of Luck at the end of our game and one of my friends, in our next campaign, started the game as a Cleric of Jack and proceeded to honour/make fun of my old character for the duration of that campaign, making up stupid doctrines and traditions based on the events of the previous campaign that amused the whole group. Watching my friend play that character was more fun than playing my lvl 18-20 Bard ever was.

“A lot of level 20 abilities are powerful to the point of being game breaking.” Me: Cries in Ranger

level 1-2: very basic adventures level 3-8: sweet-spot imo. The characters start to be able to do more things and you can throw some interesting encounters at your players without worrying that they just get stat-checked by a CR 2 monster. level 8-14: high level campaign. You players are shaping the history of your game-world and are renown heroes in the world. level 14+: shit gets weird. Edit: I think high-level campaigns can work in certain settings/contexts. If its more like Malazan, with the different gods (or other powerful beings) basically playing their own little game of chess, it could be fun to have the party enter this stage of powerful beings competing for power, honor or whatever tickles their fancy.

Run a pvp lvl20 bar fight. It's hilarious.

"How do you challenge these characters when they are basically gods?" Joke answer: A cliff Real answer: Have them fight stuff that are also basically gods

Level 20 players: I have a wish spell, the demi Gorgon is dead. Good dm: now it's a litch.

I think the key to making a campaign for level 20 characters is to realize that the structure of "There is a place with a guy doing a thing that you need to stop" no longer works. There needs to be either a large problem that requires many steps to solve, or everything is on fire everywhere. That way, you can build encounters and plot beats to fit into whichever encounter they DON'T completely destroy by turning everything in a half mile radius into acid or whatever, and despite being singularly invincible, your players are still challenged by the simple fact that they can't be everywhere all at once.

I started DMing back in AD&D 2nd Edition, a game which had no level cap. In fact, when you multiclassed, you split your xp among the different classes you played as, and they had different xp requirements to level. After a certain threshold, you either: a) have to adopt a strategy to deal with grand scale military campaigns and implement riot rules for multiple grapplers on a single target, b) use a divinity system to allow characters to work towards becoming a deity, c) send the epic level characters to Ravenloft and allow their own hubris to imprison them, or d) let them explore Spelljammer and understand why even the gods themselves stay within their crystal spheres of influence. If you are only sticking to Faerun and the current 5e printed materials, then yes, level 20 can be a pain to deal with. Take a look back at some of the older campaign settings like Planescape, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, or Spelljammer. Or let your monsters in the current setting use more intelligent tactics. For example, in AD&D 2nd Edition, a common tactic among goblins was to throw jars filled with black puddings at those pesky, heavily armored adventurers with tons of hp. Trust me when I say that you do not want a black pudding crawling up your nose/ears/mouth and into your body, no matter how many hit points you have. Learn to use your players' strengths against them, and level 20 campaigns can be just as manageable as level 3 campaigns.

People: I never went above lvl 10 Me, never having past lvl 3: you guys are getting levels?

Level 20 games is where the Wizard spends his off time in his own demi-plane, making the occasional stop to the Abyss to capture a demon within a soul cage to use in a spell, the Fighter is leading an army the size of a city around, the Monk spends his time ontop of the peak of the highest as a timeless being, meditating and achieving transcendance and the Paladin is arm wrestling with Solar's in Mount Celestia. During game time they are fighting Demon Lords, Ancient Lich's and Cthullu whilst hopping around the Astral Sea in their own magic space ship.

Going way back for this one, back to the AD&D 2nd edition. Had a party of mega leveled characters who ultimately went for Godhood. Killed Vecna, the tarrasque, several ancient wyrms... but our arch nemesis, whom we never defeated: A 0-level gnome named Billy who had a penchant for magical items with an elemental nature and traps. Nearly killed us several times. So, my point is, lv20 characters can be challenged. Even by Billy the Gnome (just typing his name gives me stress to this day)

"Game that we all play." Aaaaahahahahahaha. Ha. Hahaha. I think you mean "game we all buy the books for and then desperately wish we could play one day maybe, but probably not because it has been many years since you bought the book and you still can't find anyone to play with."

when the sponsor is not raid shadow legends for once

“High levels are dumb!” Me: *planning a high-level campaign involving the players killing demon lords* ( ._.)

Sounds to me that you don't think level 20 is dumb, you just hate being a DM for a level 20 party

I kinda miss the Epic Level Handbook. Fifth edition doesn’t have one and I remember it really helped me write great campaigns for lv. 20+ players. Yes, there are still plenty of people playing beyond that level.

This is where in my experience you slap PC levels on monsters. Fighting a Level 20 Path of the Zealot Barbarian that’s also an Ancient Red Dragon isn’t something people forget

XP: Who plays a campaign at level 20? Me: Casually puts level 60 3.5ed character away

One of the issues is that some classes/characters gain huge abilities in the lvl 19-20 realm like you said. However, some classes have meh capstone abilities.

From my experience from running a campaign from level 1-20. You have to have encounters that are not only homebrewed to challenge the party, but challenge them in a way that the core rules just don't support.

"Who plays a game at level 20?", nervously sweats over the fact I've planned a whole game around players starting at level 20 caus they wanted to try it out

“How is it fun to run level 20 campaigns” I do this thing in my games where rather than some big bad, the characters fight an embodiment of something. This can mean they fight the Trickery Domain, the Necromancy School, but they don’t fight a person or beast. It makes sense that when the characters become what the dmg describes as “masters of the world” that they fight evils (or goodness) that is beyond an angel or a demon, but that they fight the cosmic power behind it

The way I see it is actually pretty simple and pulled out of 4e recommendations. Levels 1-5/7 Material Plane Levels 7-15 Inner Planes Levels 15-20 Outer Planes Because a level 1-15 character should not be able to survive on any outer plane for any amount of time that would be required for an adventure. War of the Spider Queen books are essentially a mid to high level adventure, going from Underdark and ending up in the 9 Hells, dealing with deities by the end.

"there's nothing I can throw at a Lvl 20 party they can't just wipe their asses with" *laughs in tuckers kobolds

Get them to 20, have them do something evil (you know they want to). They become the villains. Make new characters, then do a campaign where the old ones the bad guys

I like how Jacob basically called out everyone in the roleplay section of his discord.

For really strong parties, I'll add a homebrew effect to make encounters less anti-climactic: Like in one area there was a group of hobgoblins who ingested a slime which took over their minds and bodies, but also granted them wolverine-esque regenerative powers up to a point. Every time one would take dmg I would roll a handful of dice (depending on the strength of enemy) and have it heal that much, up to x times, after which the slime would thin out and ooze out of their ears, nose, eyes, etc and the monster would deflate into a puddle of goo. Was very fun and actually gave the players a challenge despite having god-teir equipment and being over leveled for a typical encounter like that. Or make a "named" version of a monster, which bypasses the once per day abilities and just uses them at will. Can make for some good surprises

Your fiancée rolled a nat 1 walking down a hallway. It's OK, I rolled a nat 1 painting a bedroom once.

"My players are too into their characters. I'm gonna punish them for it" -Gary Gygax apparently

How to fix Level 20 problem: Make a Tarrasque that is a Level 20 Oathbreaker Paladin. That will take care of those pesky players.

I love the way you end your videos. Seriously top notch self-aware humor, not being sarcastic. Like, you genuinely have the best style of ending videos of any channel I've ever seen on KZfaq, and I watch an unhealthy amount of KZfaq.

I feel this is a display of two things ... Players with lacking ethics, and a DM with lacking capacity ... For the players, yes they can do anything, but do they ever consider if they SHOULD be thinking like that ... For the DM you need to approach level 20 characters with situations where they must make decisions and or sacrifices that make them realize the consequences of having power

"Its fine, we're gods!" -Keyleth

For me DM'ing over lvl 15 usually turns into international problem solving and politics. Mostly because thats what my players are into. So the combat is mostly armies etc.

I think one of the best things you can do when you hit level 20 is that your characters shift from the people who are doing the things, to the people who need things done for them. They become the kings/generals/demi gods, and instead of their main concern being "Accomplish this task" It's now "Keep this city/army/religion alive." The focus skews much more heavily on roleplaying than on combat, and on the rare occasions they do fight, it's against some sort of world-threatening problem that's just as bad ass as they are, if not more so. A good supplement/alternate option to this is that once everyone hits 20s, their characters become NPCs and they all make new characters in the same world and those epic characters become the figureheads.

I’ve always wanted to see two teams of level 20 player characters to toe to toe

"Rogue is the simplest class"? *laughs in barbarian*

11:02 DM: You walk through a long hallway, but you can feel like an ominous aura wants you out of this place. Fiance: Im feeling cute so I keep going foward while doing cool acrobatics DM: Ok, make a dex roll (Rolls a 1) DM: Ok you failed miserably and let your iphone fall into a tiny bucket filled with slime that was on the ground.

DM here: I have a campaign that I'm wrapping up that was designed for Epic Boons all the way to level 25 (my final session is tomorrow wish me luck :) ) The way I handle level 20+ is fear and puzzles. Past level 15 or 16 I start making all the big combat encounters puzzle heavy - i.e. this thing probably isnt that strong, doesnt do a lot of damage, doesn't have much health, but you, cant attack it very easily because of some curse or backlash or something, usually something that can be made relative to your own attacking power, as this also lets me balance in case the party missed quests and is under level the way i run my level 20+ campaign endings is simple. when i write and homebrew my BBEG at the beginning of the campaign I dont balance it. At all. I dont playtest, i dont do anything. I write down stats and hope its not too broken. My party knows this, this way, they are A. motivated to learn their characters in and out and really climb in level to be prepared but B. they are constantly guessing in combat if theyve even made a dent to the BBEG's health and resources. They're hesitant to go all out because, what if they waste all their spells and then theres a second phase? or what if they use everything and it doesnt do the job because they didnt need cold damage they really needed thunder damage they way I solve level 20+ encounters is to force my players to play conservatively because of unknowns it makes combat feel really fun for me because i, as the DM holding all the cards and info, know exactly what they should do to honestly, wipe the floor with my BBEG, but they continue to think and strategize and miss opportunities because theyre scared of wasting their "infinite power"

I ran the Tomb of Annihilation as a 1-20 campaign, but I twisted the ending to include two subservient liches to fight along Acerak. Then the final twist was when they walked through the portal to escape, it teleported them to the Tomb of Horrors. My party had a blast. The final boss fight in the Tomb of Annihilation was memorable for them, but the Tomb of Horrors afterwards was brutal but they enjoyed the challenge and still talk about it two years later.

The simple answer to this problem is: You aren't thinking big enough. The scale just keeps growing so don't compare a level 20+ to the things before it. A level 20 character is a level 1 character on the Cosmic scale and that's when the true adventure can really begin. Unlike TV shows, power creep isn't an issue in D&D, because D&D is about your progress, your journey, building your legend. Levels 1-20 is the origin story of the figures of myth, but those myths continue on in their struggles like any god or angel or lord of hell in D&D. Like the struggle between Tiamat and Bahamut. The curse of Atlas. The blood war. The chaos of Sigil and the Lady of Pain's grand machinations. The rivalries between the higher planes. The great old ones of the far realms. In my epic level campaigns I humanize many of the gods and the players even become close friends with some of them, though many still remain larger then life. The leaders of pantheons, interdimensional and extraversal beings become the new mysterious supreme beings. I have many of the immortal beings of the cosmos fight over getting the new players on the universal scale to their side. I have immortals encourage the players to fight god killers the same way a lvl 1 player would fight his first dragon. There is always a bigger fish and your journeys can always become grander. Let them break the mechanics. Let them fight to shape the multiverse... against or with all the other beings trying to do so. That's what D&D is all about. Once you hit epic levels consequences and challenges aren't diminished at all, instead they have become even greater then most people can imagine... But that's not simply the DM's problem... That's their time to shine ever brighter. In fact I personally find Epic levels 'easier' because the players have taken on part of my role. :)

"don't play above level 18" my dude when you hit level 17 as a wizard or bard you can become a never-dying spellcasting ancient dragon

My only time that I would recommend having players use Level 20 characters is if you're running an extreme sort of meatgrinder campaign where you have to go up against an army of tarrasques. I find the prospect of placing a bunch of enormous minis onto the map in front of your players to be absolutely entertaining and the players still get some sort of catharsis when they defeat thirteen Tiamats in one fight.

Throne of Bloodstone at levels 23-25 in AD&D was amazing for me as a DM. Surely a solid DM can find or create good and engaging adventures.

"We're like gods..." Keyleth's famous last words before dying the for the first time falling from a high cliff before she wild shaped into a goldfish before being dashed against a rocky shore.

“It’s ya boy, loud annoying guy that talks about role playing games” Ah, a god then.

I haven't yet but I plan to eventually run a lv 20 campaign. I think a large advantage I'll have is that I rely a lot more on improving/reacting to my players than actually writing the story ahead of time and a lot of my focus is letting my players shape the adventure into what they want.

I've never played, these videos just pop into my recommended

Him: "I've played tons of campaigns where we got to level 20." Me: *Crying cause my party never even makes it level 10 for campaigns*

The way my friends and I look at it is like this: Level 6: Street Tier Superhero Level 12: Avenger Tier Superhero Level 18+: Cosmic Superhero Looking at it like that we can then look at the comics, manga, movies and whatever else we have and look at the kind of threats they generally have to deal with. Makes designing challenges much more reasonable: especially when 5e's rules are considered.

You can always introduce cosmic horrors, or an alien invasion in that level. Should be great as long as you ensure the spell wish can only be cast through items like the djinn bottle, or luck blade.

I was in an epic 4e campaign that ended at level 29. It was amazing the only downside was not finding the answer to a riddle before the final fight that would have put us at 30.

It's kinda the same process for writing a good Superman Story. When characters have limitless power, you put them in situations where their power doesn't solve their problems. It also admittedly works better with characters who have morals.

"That sucks and I hate it." - Gary Gygax

3.5 years and going on to epic levels (currently 24) and homebrew everything now. Our DM is awesome, that is all.

Honestly, by about level 8 or 9 most characters would have seen and experienced enough crazy stuff that they outright just wouldn't be bothered to go out adventuring any more.

"How do you challenge these characters to do anything when they're basically gods" You pit them against gods

When you reach lvl 20 and are a chaotic evil genocidal casting monster who wants everything to disappear...from all realms. All gods. All things.

All you need for an above 18 campaign is a really good imagination and a few tweaks to the mechanics and enemy stats

I have high level campaigns where the Gods are the main npcs lore-wise and it’s not clear who the villain is, just that they’re immensely powerful. It has to be very open-world where the players’ goals drive them to go somewhere and the story finds them, meaning improv rather than prep is key.

I made a riddle door for the entrance of a pirate hoard tomb. The two characters were rogues that had been friends since childhood. The door says "a sacrifice must be made." It has a picture of one killing another. They decided to leave it. While walking away a spectral guardian stands before them clapping and saying "well done you have passed the test". And they became the first pirates to ever open the door because they chose friendship over treasure.

One of my favorite campaigns is one where two DMs played with two different groups in the same world One group (my group) Played the BBEGs and we were all level 20. We spent our time setting up traps, and plot hooks and everything for the other group, who are a bunch of low-level adventurers. The low-level group would play through the campaign as if it were a normal campaign, except instead of being based on a book, it's entirely homebrew, and the BBEG group are the people that set everything up. Eventually when the adventuring party hits level 20, and finally reveals who the BBEGs both DM's come together and the two groups fight it out. Whoever wins becomes the BBEGs, the other group leaves. So far my group hasn't lost, we've won 3 in a row. Some homebrew things/rules for this campaign: 1. No mystics, everyone who plays in our campaigns tend to hate mystics, so it's just a general rule we have. 2. The wish spell is banned, or if you really want it, you can only use it to have the preset listed effects. 3. Homebrew classes, and races and everything of the sort are allowed at the discretion of *both* DMs. 4. The DMs have to share with each other what the other party is doing (as that is how the campaign functions), but neither DM can tell the players what the other parties are doing, aside from when the n game PCs try to inquire and find out what the other group is doing. This rule is mainly used so the adventuring party doesn't have the BBEG surprise spoiled, while also making so the BBEG group doesn't know *everything* the adventuring group has. 5. You can make your own magic items, and aren't limited to the magic items in the book. SO long as something makes sense to make, and you are able to make it, then go for it. Be as creative as you want. 6. Both DMs have to play by "The rule of cool." What I mean by this is: Both DMs have to be able to be open-minded, and allow their players to be creative when it comes to solving problems. Even if something is slightly against the rules so long as it makes sense contextually, allow the players to at least attempt it. 7. Before the game begins both DMs have to decide who the "Final DM" is going to be, i.e the DM that takes control when both groups finally meet up. 8. If there is a chance of the groups meeting up, then both groups have to be available, but if there isn't a chance of the groups meeting up, then the sessions can be hosted at different times. 9. The BBEG group has to make every challenge they create possible for the other players in the adventuring group. 10. The BBEG group gets to know the level of the adventuring groups players, but not their magic items, classes, etc, unless the BBEG goes out of their way to find out. There you go, those are the general rules for the campaign. Also, for even more fun, don't tell the adventuring group that the other group are the BBEG'S This style of gameplay is super fun, and I honestly recommend giving it a shot. Aside from the above rules, it's honestly at DMs discretion. Anything is possible, and remember, Rule of Cool is always better than Rules as Written. Have a great day, and thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

remember epic level in dnd 3.5e yeah good times. 25th level gives you the option to become god

"how do you prevent monsters from getting destroyed by stupid abilities?" Immunities and legendary resistances my friend.

This reminds me of Vampire: The Masquerade, in a way. VtM's equivalents of high level characters - ancient vampires - have enough power and influence to shape whole regions. But they're kept in check by very strict requirements for survival - stay out of the sun, keep a steady flow of blood coming in, account for individual vampires' different weaknesses, etc. Even the most powerful vampires can be defeated by a single human with a torch as long as the sun's in the sky while the dude comes into their lair. And there are WAY more humans than vampires. Because of the need for secrecy, the conflicts they find themselves embroiled in are NEVER direct. They and their opposition are typically so powerful that direct confrontation would accomplish nothing at best, and make things way worse for both parties at worst. They act through proxies and servants, and leverage ancient rituals and predatory powers to accumulate power without putting themselves in danger. In the rare, rare instances of ancients surviving into the Modern Nights with a moral compass intact, they bear extraordinary pressure to use their powers responsibly. Past a certain point, it becomes hard NOT to crush things by accident with super strength, or peer into the minds of mortals and turn their own thoughts against them. They have to constantly fight against their own nature as predators. The point is that, in regards to characters powerful enough to theoretically erase whatever you put in front of them, it becomes more and more important to incorporate new kinds of challenges, on top of high ACs and deadly DCs. Characters who retain their sense of humanity need to be reminded that it can be dangerous to be that powerful - and that having such strength means the weight of their responsibilities as heroes is only going to rise to match them. Characters with fewer scruples about using their powers need reasons to NOT go nova - using the VtM example, that reason would be that their power makes them a target, and even demigods have limits to what they can handle.

Level 20 encounter: It's the end of the campaign. Your level 20 players.kick open the lich's door, thinking they're in for an easy fight. They are level 20 afterall. The fighter has a vorpal sword, the paladin has his smites ready, the cleric has his heals prepared so the party doesn't die, the druid's pretty much immortal, and the rogue is... Where's the rogue again? The arch lich stands up from his throne. He smiles at the party inside his dark palace. He asks the party, "Did you think I'd be dumb enough to face you alone?" two more identical liches step out of adjacent rooms and circle the party. The party just realized they're in for a hell of a fight.

Man, I just ran across your channel, and I think I'm glad I never played past 2nd Edition AD&D. I played a 6 year campaign and we all had 25th level characters. We had the funnest games because we were fighting everything at the end. Like we got sucked into a Looney Tunes dimension and had to fight Tweetie and Bugs Bunny and Marvin the Martian. We fought Tiamat and Asmodeus, laying waste to the gods themselves. We fought Godzilla and King Kong. I still have my characters from the 1980s and 1990s in a box. We were all taking turns running dungeons (4 of us) so we each DM'd once a month. I guess it really depends on what you want to do, if you decide to just have fun, you can pull material from anywhere in Pop Culture. Fight the X-men, or Transformers, or Aliens, Terminators or Predators. At the end level, just break all the rules and HAVE FUN.

Player a lvl 20 campaign once. 3 players and we were on a mission to close a fissure that opened in Ferune that allowed The Blood War to seep through. Of course it had to be closed on the other side. Ended up fighting oberyths in a big old labyrinth that was acting as a nexus between various chaotic and negative planes. That said, it really helped that we had been playing the same character for almost 3 years and had been working our way up to this for a long time. I was the DM through the whole experience (first kid to being D&D to school, this was in the early 2000’s and in a rural area so we had never heard of it and I just saw a starter kit at a Barnes and noble I visited with my dad when we had to go to the cities).

Gods are susceptible to cliffs, I hear.

My party were level 18 when they accidentally triggered my BBEG early. They used a Wish as the battle began to skip to 20. We had a 2-session battle, and the campaign continued on with the remaining looming threats as "cleanup". Even for level 20 characters, honestly, we all had fun. In fact, I ended up grabbing some homebrew to let the party go even higher, and by the epilogue they were level 26.

This is a topic I am very familiar with. My first long ranging campaign started at lvl 1 and ended at 23. Later in the campaign I was struggling and stressed out. I wanted to challenge the party, but it got to a point where either I was going to have to alpha strike and insta kill half the party or the combat would essentially be over in two turn. I am not an adversarial DM, and I don't ever want to get to that point. I confessed my frustration to one player and he gave me some great advice. Yes, the combats were being decided quickly, but the important thing was that they were interesting and the players were having fun. Yes, the party was insanely powered, but they had earned that power level by level. Now in the late game they got to enjoy the fruits of their labor. As long as the players were enjoying themselves and weren't getting bored, then ultimately that was all that really mattered. It was exactly what I needed to hear. If anyone was curious it was a 3.5 campaign. The party was: Beguiler/fate spinner: she had great control options, could turn opponents into her minions, and she took luck out of the equation for me and them. Psionic/wizard theurge: he was a Swiss army knife that could repick his Psionic powers on the fly. He devoted himself to problem solving and counting what I did. Most annoyingly he could take an immediate action to interrupt my turn and take an action. That saved the party multiple times. A machine gun archer that was also a mage killer. He could deal over 450 damage a round, lower spell resistance, and a lot of the damage was irresistible. Warmage: his one job was to buff the archer, lol. But he did provide extra damage. They were an extremely tough nut to crack.

Great Video! *This is absolutely amazing*

8:25 i love DMing lvl 20 games. they r some of my favorites to run. the way i look at a group of lvl 20s is that i have the freedom to setup an impossible challenge and then leave it to the players to figure out (most of the time i dont know how to solve the challenge myself). 6 lvl 20s that are all minmaxed and can destroy anything will not find an astral dreadnaught a challenge, however 7 astral dreadnaughts will give them a good spook. me being the DM do not care how or even if they figure out how to deal with all those big beasts. at that point its not my problem it is theirs. im simply narrating at that point. when making encounters for those games i basically beat my players over the head with the monster manual.

Level 20 combat just takes a special hand, you need to tell the stories like a mythological tale, not like a dungeom crawl.

I think a way to balance it is to add in spellcasters who act similar to players and have managed to surpass level 20 not always just one good option as a big challenge

Tomb of Horrors was a tournament module that comes with pregens - it is designed for a very specific mode of play, which included strangers playing a single, short game at the table at a convention.

Things to do when you have a level 20 party: Option 1: Okay so everyone here is overpowered. Imma gonna take a page out of Brutal Doom and balance overpowered with more overpowered. Option 2: Me: Alright so you're level 20 now. The final part of the quest takes you to Hell. Players: That doesn't sound so bad. We can easily take the Demogorgon or Tiamat. Me: I didn't say it's DnD hell. The doors burst down and two giant demons with a metallic arm shows up. They can shoot Fireball spells at will, indefinitely. Option 3: Level 20. Let's go to the Outer Plains where everything can kill you. Level 20 is now the new level 1. Congrats.

One time the Dm had to make a short dungeon and it was a party above level 20 and he nearly killed all of us with only five enemies. No devils and demons were used

I personally adore higher level campaigns- both DMing and playing them. Played a small major plot point in my campaign where my players got boosted to level 20 and it was mad fun. It really opens up the avenues as a DM to create challenges for players that you'd like- they're overpowered, you can overpowered. When I was designing a lot of lower level encounters, I found they always fell short really quickly because of just the basic "I hit thing hard, it bleed". At level 20? I created a Tiamat-like dragon that threatened all of magic with a vast array of destructive spells and abilities that could've leveled a whole small country

20th level was alot of fun in 3.5e imo, Played 3 campaigns that begun at 20th using the good ol epic level handbook, made it to 27th in one

I'm curious as to which did you wrote. In topic, I agree, I love lvl 20 when its earned and it can lead to one hell of a final battle. As a player I enjoy the power, as a dm... I enjoy abusing either powerful enemies or a HUGE amount of monsters swarming the players. Another way to make challenge is to create homebrew monsters.

This dude looks like he's annoyed by his own existence. subscribed.

I remember one paragraph in 3.0e Forgotten Realms book, something like "who watches the powerful", as for every super powerful character there is dozen others who are waiting for their misstep.

"I force my friends" thats me with my friends

Jacob: the players will destroy anything Me: *puts 4 mystics which are lv.20*

I normally write campaigns until I feel like the party has fully knotted the central thread of story. As a Dungeon Master, I'm here to ensure players have a compelling experience and that the story _feels_ complete. *I am not a writer on a basic cable drama.* Therefore, my objective isn't to continue the story indefinitely. My objective is to know when a good story is finally complete.

I had a lot of fun as a player in a lvl 20 evil campaign. We were basically creating the explanation why the land to south was a brutal hell scape. Barely survived tbh, but that what happens when you fight admantian flying siege constructs.