Gotta love the Echo Crossover discussions, always a good listen

Absolutely loved this talk after the TGP! Not a raider myself but really interesting to hear how much work there is behind the RWF. Would love to get more of this after future raids!

There is just something so wholesome about seeing Max and Meeres having a conversation like this

Great convo. Meeres is such a gem.

never heard meeres talk longform like this before. respect the guy so much as a gamer and now, so much as a critical thinker and player. really great takes and opinions.

Meeres seems like the coolest dude, and also insanely knowledgable as well. Glad you guys had this chat, it seems like everything between the guilds is at least smoothing over a little bit

Very nice editing from the Fronk and nice cutting to relevant footage during discussions from Max in this one. Props to both of you.

I don't get the fanboyism of each individual guild. I fucking love crossover discussions like this, would love to see more of it.

Awesome stuff. Love these long discussion videos

Banger talk. Very pleasant to listen too and so interesting. Thanks for the content !! Please more of this in depth knowledge ❤

Meeres is a real one, good talk watched the whole thing in one sitting!

I love these, really hope we get one for each tier. I feel Dorki needs a shout out for bringing you guys together under a safe roof so you can chat and realise its all the moronic fans ruining the vibes between the guilds. Also ironically whilst you're discussing numpty fans at 1:44:02, some numpty fan comes in with a triggering comment. Perfect timing that.

So I’m a healer, can’t speak for the entire community but for me, I have times where I’m “hot” and times I’m not. I used to play hockey as a goalie and it’s the same thing, very common for goalies to get hot, almost come out of nowhere, for a season and than slow down and than get hot again. Healing is very similar for me. Sometimes I log on and run keys or raid and I’m just not producing like I should, lasts likes a night or a couple days. But then I can get “hot” and I’m just outhealing everything, everything goes so well. I play all the healer specs and right now I’m feeling very hot on my rsham.

The thing about 10-man raiding is that Blizzard would need to learn how to make mechanics that aren't difficult as a result of your raid size. Most Mythic mechanics feel like their main challenge is the fact that you're a frickin' army and that creates entropy.

Incredible talk. I loved every minute of this, big fan of Meeres so I loved this mash-up. Thanks, Max!

Never heard or heard of meeres before as I don’t keep up with rwf stuff outside of casual max content but what a cool and intelligent guy

Loved listening to this live. And you can tell how much these conversations mean to the both of them lol. They had to go but didn’t want the convo to end

honestly my favourite type of content i love these long form discussions

What an amazing conversation between two amazing people. More if this please. Also: More Undercover Raid Leader pls xD

imo if it moves to a tournament realm all the curiosity would be who would be the first to get it on live so it kind of would defeat the purpose

Nice discussion gents! Meeres seems like such a nice guy. Very nice discussion to listen to 👍

I wish the entire discourse around the race could be as quality as this conversation.

Regarding turning off streams, I wonder if a 'deal' could be made between the RWF guilds - given the sponsors agrees. That each RWF guild is allowed to turn off the stream for X hours of progress, and maybe an additional Y hours on the end boss. Because yes, it is maybe against the spirit of RWF, but sometimes it's also so beneficial due to no global release, so if all parties involved agrees to a set amount of hours, then you can use that wisely (obviously without starting and ending the stream between pulls to 'save offline time')

I think if 10 man mythic raiding comes out 2 weeks after release, it would be cool.

> Hell YEAH! as a tank its suck ass to fight big boss models. > I think Echo did the off stream first, got flamed but set a precedence. Therefore by the time Liquid did that people understood that. Plus like Meeres says, it was not sudden and Max talked about it. So at this point people were more like 'yeah it sucks but I guess its a competition, whatever' feeling. I guess the only ones that could grief a guild is sponsors. I am assuming this might become a contract signing clause in future with sponsors. Also Meeres is super Pog for interviews/chats.

meeres so chill. was an interesting chat to listen to

Holy shit i haven't heard the term power aura used in a while, thats a throw back.

Hell yeah! I actually loved the long raid (Sepulcher), it became like "binging a series" kind of moment. The only other race that felt like that was Aszhara with the 24/7 stream from Method ^^

I love these kinds of talks, perfect second monitor content.

I been a LimiT/Complexity/Liquid fan for years.. But honestly, at this point, you can't tell guilds "the only way to compete is to get really good players and keep them" while at the same time saying "We are going to take the best players from top guilds, and its not a bad thing." ... Which one is it? Because there is no actual way that the race can survive too long if any time a guild comes close to possibly competing, you snatch their players. That's not how this works, and unless you expect unsponsored guilds to somehow get players to lock into a contract that keeps them from getting poached, its just not gonna happen.

Winning on time is literally how every single competitive sport works though.

Probably unpopular idea. Introduce the Mythic RWF mode (same difficulty as mythic but more constrained) in the game: - you can enter the raid only with the heroic dungeon, raid or crafted gear. (no pvp, no m+, no rare drops) - raid gear earned from any difficulty will get marked with RL name. RL must be entitled for loot to mark other player's loot. You can only wear gear earned from the same RL while running 20m runs only, until the group achieves the CE. - regular mythic run bosses are released only when a RWF guild manages to kill them, or let's say the first 5 guilds. Reasons: - you won't be able to "overgear" early - regular players will be watching you more as they need you to kill the boss first in order to even give a shot on them. This will bring a lot of engagement and a sense of "I'm making something good for the community" apart of the ego of being the best players. - it would reduce the preparation for the raid, and eventually, the burnout as if you get stuck you can do alt runs, rest, farm herbs, enjoy the content etc - trading farm runs will be gone - you will be able to run multiple raid comps with alts for a better loot chance - the raid must tunned to be difficult for low ilvl groups, but will give a chance for less skilled players to experiment the end content with higher ilvl (gearing on LK for mythic was only possible in raids and we also had the boss debuff over the following months to allow other players to do the content) - you'll face the gearing problem of most raid groups - alt groups will feel like main char runs, potentially increasing the views, as they can become mains based on luck or comp - changing the comp to have 10 druids or 5 warlocks to kill a particular boss like it happened in the past will be more complicated as it will need to work for all previous bosses and the following ones as well. - RWF will potentially last a bit longer, but you might be able to rest more - RWF mode could eventually be constrained by a schedule time (if the discussed weekly reset is not doable), so all competing guilds will start and end at the same week day Unfortunately nobody will see this comment.. :(

Giving some good podcast vibes. Loved it!

Regarding recruitment of healers I have a question: do top guilds use underhealing as a challenge for healers or healer recruits? I always found this fun, at least on a casual level. Just walking through heroic farm with four healers when you really only need two of them just bores me to death. And it is fun as a healer to do something interesting instead of spamming your overpowered overgeared blanket heals on top of an already healthy raid or doing damage 80% of the time.

10 man would definitely make the raids weaker in terms of design, but it would bring back SO many players, including myself. As a former gm, managing a casual guild for 20 man raiding is just awful, and burned me out so much

Thank god we found out about Wubby.

I would love to see a mythic raid on live with the best tank from both teams, the best 2 healers from both, and then the top dps from both teams, go into a mythic raid and see how crazy that goes.

God Meeres seems like such a dope guy

I dont even play anymore, stopped after vault. But I love listening to these chats.

As an educator by trade I would actually love to run a top tier feeder guild, like #5-10 in the world. I would be happy to look at the rosters of the world first and be able to say we helped x amount of those players be who they are today.

imo the best approach for most of the Race to World First's problems can be solved by adopting Destiny 2s contest mode

Love content like this

nice convo! but holy shit the amount of times you guys say cook lol

Im the type of guy who uses crit flask + sark cloak and then i blame healers when i die.

The thumbnail looks like it’s straight of family guy

Personally, I'd love to see 10 man raiding make a return. Our guild has ended up in this awkward limbo, where we tend to clear heroic fairly quickly, but don't have the numbers or drive to push the numbers to return to Mythic raiding (did as a guild the last 2 expansions), so once we clear heroic, loads of newer guild members leave for mythic guilds, and loads of others end up cancelling their sub until the next season. But everyone always says if 10 man mythic existed it'd be perfect, as we usually have a fairly steady 10-15 players who are at that rough level. But similarly I'd not want to have 10 man introduced at the cost of 20 man. I'd want the RWF to still be in full 20 man mythic raids, but I think there is a niche for a lot of players/guilds who are "better" than heroic, but don't have the resources to do 20 man mythic etc.

Low overall raid time guilds extending an entire tier seems totally fine

I do like the idea of being able to jump to phases of a boss when it's 10 or 15 minutes long. Maybe make it 2-3 bosses, doesn't even have to be loot in it.

as a scandinavian staying up to 5 am is normal i think having no day/night cycle is somewhat a reason for it

it is objectively more valuable to make raiding 10 man for accessibility than to maintain integrity

RWF without either team would not be entertaining. Both guilds rely on the other to make it a spectacle. That's the beauty of it.

Meeres his stopword being “myeah” is oddly captivating 😅

If they bring back 10 man mythic it'd be great but they should keep some kind of special accolade for the 20 man to differentiate.

Love both of you guys. ❤

I hope you guys keep doing these.

Meeres idea is pure fire 🔥 listen to him Blizz

I do love that you do these post-raid talks with someone from Echo eventually.

so Sepulcher was your guys' namek saga

Funny how they, on archimonde, nerfed the stand here shit, but now it just pops up again.

Fronk you're a monster.

I agree with Meeres about having a set of agreements across the board, but ESPECIALLY in regards to turning off streams or progressing off stream. The black site with no outside media is also a great idea.

I don't think the upgrade system is good for the game. The low teen m+ keys are awful right now because people are getting gear they shouldn't and now they see 16s are what they should do to get upgrades but they haven't timed a 12. Also even my casual heroic prog guild with multiple grandparents in it finished 4 weeks early. We are going to 1 day if the gear is the same

It's super interesting to listen to these RWF guys talk about their thoughts and perspectives, but their experience of the game is so far removed from the average player that I have a hard time giving any weight to what they are saying the game should or shouldn't have.

Embellishments are basically df legendaries but purple and less interresting.

Would love to see your thoughts on 10 man or even 15 man mythic raiding instead of 20 man that we have now

Ok i know i'm a neebie and they probably tought about that but when meeres say they can't agree in commun raid progression hours cause it would result in a 5day race i've looked a little about numbers and i find way to do proper 7day progression with common hours. So if by any chance max or meeres saw this comment and are ok to have a little chat it would be really great :)

I think if they let you earn the same amount of crests a week you can now, but spend less of them in the first few weeks that would be a fair comprimise

Is there a chance to the get the exact UI shown in the video?

Problem with the upgrade system is that blizzard opened the gates of hell. Like, it will be hard to nerf the speed you get the gear, if took 3 weeks this patch and the next it takes 9 weeks. The community will explode.

Regarding the first 5 min and the gap between the top 2 guilds and the guilds below that being so massive, I wonder how much that's got to do with the community being conditioned to only 'care' about the first guild to beat a raid tier's raid, which by extension means people can only care about the top two guilds competing for that rank 1 title. Basically I'm wondering if we were to put a greater focus on, for example, the top 5 guilds beating a raid tier; would more guilds work towards getting into that bracket since even simply entering the top 5 is prestigious and could therefore be more lucrative? Because as it stands once the first guild beats the raid tier, virtually all hype dies down. Not just from the viewers perspective but also from the raiders competing their perspective as well as from the content creator's perspective. People are typically still a little bit hyped to see the second place guild but beat the raid tier but I feel like it's mainly in the 'lets get this over with' way and not the 'who's going to get the second spot?!' way.` I simply wonder if we put a greater focus from the entertainment/content creator side of things on the lower spots, would we get more people to care for it?

10 man world first Paragon returns

another max post lets goooo

i loved the 10 Man raiding in the past. There where so much little an succsesful groups. Bring it back Blizzard

Ele shaman deserves totem of wrath or skyfury totem

Most people that raid to kill for fun still want smart choices made.

Max "let me know what you think" then goes on a 3 minute diatribe.

Civil

lol, well in all honesty. if you pug m+ with randoms you do think of passives of all classes. hell when I'm healing I'm even trying to track the cd for pots so I can yell to use healing pots. it's sometimes like a horror game with jumpscares when an ability is happening and you see 1 of the dps moving. I'm playing druid so I legit put ironbark on people in the few frames I have when I see the effect on the screen.

FYI, I promote the going off stream to gain a little insight into a fight for progressing to win!

Max and meeres podcast when?

This is the shit I love

this is an old vid, but yo, just make the gear gap between mythic and heroic larger, +3 ilvls, and people will farm it. with how vault works as well, you could just move myth track to higher keys, say a 12-15, and have it in normal seasons, such that mythic prog can be tuned harder, solves the world first dps race issue without nerfs, who cares if u can get full mythic doing +15s in say 14 weeks or so, if u can do a 15 u can do mythic with full hero gear, even if the tuning is slightly harder.

Releaae 10 man after HOF closes. That way people stick behind roster boss can get mythic xp to apply to more guilds. Increase the player pool 10 fold

No matter how both guilds do it, if they could, the toxic fandom will never go away. The Toxic Fans on RWF are the equivalent of Hooligans in any non-e-sport. Some people would fucking shank eachother in the Streets over who killed the androgonous bipedal fantasy dragon first.

The thing about turning of stream I know sponsors got there part in it but the race have been a 2 team game for some time, so why not make a genteman agreement between you 2 teams say 2-3h raid can be done of stream for for the whole race those moments when you are close to reset or have something you want to test out but not show. Its gonna be hard to check and prove but then that might make some shut up about it, might even get it to work with the sponsors since I´m sure they can see the benefit aswell aslong the offline stream aint to long and have a set timelimit

the stream stuff i think it was timing and length. To say "last few pulls before bed offstream" feels like a compromise, "whole reset day" sounds like a huge competitive advantage move, or something. Idk. reset politics. I think the similar (but not exactly comparable) thing would be not streaming the entire first day after reset in NA. But I also think the community might be less polar these days? with all these cross-team streams and such? Just my feeling.

Name a better combo then Max talking about how much Liquid and Echo don't get along then spending multiple hours in calls with them...I'm not even joking that's a guaranteed combo for some of the most enjoyable outside raid content there is.

feral was really good in tomb of sargeras

This convo with Meeres was way better than the convo with Gingi, no offense to Gingi but I feel like you and Meeres can have a talk at closer level

Meeres hair is goat

meeres does seem pretty cool

I thought scripe/Roger were the big brains behind echo? I know meeres is obviously a big brain player but I didn’t know he was running things

Finding great healers is impossible because the only metric people look at is HPS and that's not what makes a great healer. Dps minded people are bad healers, you have to forgo topping charts to save your friends and lots of people won't do that.

What? When did BDG disband? 😢

Liquid, you guys are amazing with Maximum. It would be great if Blizzard would let players select raid bosses inside raid groups you want to work on, like you can select which dungeon you want to run and what level etc. Just an idea but it would be nice with saves and rl time constraints and all.

Gotta protect Dorki.

They need to bring back rerolls!!!!!

The fact that Rodger one of the best players in the world literally can't be in raid because his class has no value is tragic.

No way you could make as many interesting fights with 10man raiding. The encounters would suck hard compared to 20man.

The problem with global release is that it would lose one of the teams money, sponsors, etc. The reason why the race is so fucking good is because of the money thats being put into the production and staff from orgs, sponsors etc. One team would get absolutely railed on a global release due to sleep schedules and more importantly viewers, I'm NA, if global release is midnight NA i'm not watching the race due to work, sleep, life and the same would be true for EU if they get a cursed global release time and lead to either team losing an org or most of their sponsors with the viewer count just being crushed and then we're back to grass roots 25+ gamers doing it for pure competition in their house with no casters and production value. Black site, neutral location, no social media from both teams until the race ends would be the perfect solution and then winner is decided by prog time but that will never happen