Picard: I do not allow my officers to be terrorists. Sisko: My officers can be terrorists once in a while, as a treat.

The way Kira looks at Sisko when he says "You're on the other side now" and for a moment she's a child again, restarting her whole life in an instant. Without a single word from her you can speaks for hours on what must have just cascaded through her mind. As she looks to Sisko, just praying that this doesn't have to fall on her and that someone else can take it. To be able to retreat to that sense of innocence again. Truly wonderful scripting and acting.

The value gained by exporting cash crops could fund the creation of more reclamators, allowing more land to be reclaimed.

From what I have seen from real life Eminent Domain cases, do not accept what the government says verbally, get a notarized contract with the deal, replacement capital and properties and any other incentives that the government promised for you to willingly leave, with a sub clause that the government must pay all legal fees, taxes, and another sub clause stating that if you have to take them to court because some part of the promise was not fulfilled that they are responsible for all court, attorney, and any other fees accrued from you having to take them to court.

That was a really good video. The answer to your question of "Why wouldn't the Federation just give them reclimators?" I think that might have been the fault of the Provisional Government, who rejected Federation aid many times as a political move, to prove that Bajor was not just going to be a leech on the Federation's resources, but capable of being a full-fledged member. It also looked bad to Bajorans, who from the outset of the show had believed the Federation to be just like the Cardassians, and they were exchanging the rule of one tyranny for the rule of another one. As to why Kira sprang back into Rebel mode? Well, that's psychological and related to trauma, abuse, war, etc. Trauma victims are VERY distrusting of people because in traumatic situations, not being able to trust the people around you means you all die. So while a lie might not normally elicit a response like that, lying to somebody who has been the victim of a lifetime of trauma is going to generate a very violent reaction. This is compounded by the fact that Kai Wynn is also the spiritual leader, meaning she is supposed to stand for Truth. So you have a situation where trauma victims from the Resistance are finally, for the first time in their lives, trusting a government authority who gave them something they needed. And then that same government authority goes back on their word; which to Resistance members is life or death, due to their traumatic upbringing. Kira shows up to explain that it's not betrayal, and in the middle of her explanation, she herself is betrayed by Kai Wynn, who lied to her, also triggering her own trauma response. Hope that helps clarify why they might have behaved that way! Again, great video. Anything about the Bajorans is always fun for me.

This is an example of why DS9 is still my favorite ST series. It’s not “A happy Starfleet after all.” There are moral gray areas, bad choices are made and the stories push you to think. In many ways the writers built off what was a strength of many TOS episodes without having to deal with a department of censorship and the reality of 60’s episodic television. It’s what Disco could of been if the new kids had actually watched the show. Thank you LR for spending so much time is DS9 land, the most human of all the series.

13:08 in the background of the episode Miles was waging the greatest war of his career: trying to build reclamators with his engineering genius, but hamstrung by his black thumb... they were supposed to pull chemicals out the soil, but just end up cloaking

I always imagined the Federation offering help and the Bajorans saying no.

What I find ironic is they are having this issue with not having enough reclamators to fix the land so they can farm and sell the food, but then they destroy the entire ecosystem of a moon, which they could farm on, because they didn't want to wait a year.

The Federation might argue that it's in Bajor's interest to deal and learn from problems such as these, rather than have Starfleet solve it for them. They'll intervene only when it absolutely necessary to stop a humanitarian disaster, and only when their is a clear consensus from the population for them to do so.

It was a civil matter, and since Bajor was not part of the Federation, the Federation was under no obligation to get involved. If the reclamators were available, they might have donated them, but they weren't. Every request made by Kai Winn after that fell on deaf ears, and for a good reason. It is not the job of the Federation, or Starfleet, to become the strongarm of struggling governments. They run the station for Bajor. That is something clear, defined, and neutral. If Bajor really wanted the Federation out, that's their call, but they could expect even less support should the Cardassians decide to come back.

I love how you point out the ironies in star trek. A little help goes a long way. Bajor on the brink of civil war could have been avoided with just a bit.

"... and the assistants can't talk" - Everything is canon, with Lore Reloaded. EVERYTHING! XD

So many stories related to Bajor always drive me crazy, because the same two issues keep coming up: 1) They don’t produce enough food to feed their people. 2) They constantly build over fertile farmland to push technological development. In “Progress”, screw the power generation solution they’re talking about, and make the moon a farming community that offers warm climate, jobs, and plenty to eat for those tens of thousands starving. You’re also telling me replicator technology is going to drastically alter Bajor’s culture and cause contamination when they’ve dealt with the Cardassians, Federation, Ferengi, and all the races from the Delta Quadrant?

Basically, Bajor wasn't ready for any of what was going on around them.

My head canon is that Kai Winn signed a trade agreement with a third party power like the Ferengi for the Reclaimators which gave exclusive rights to that power. The Kai did it as a deliberate snub which is why there were no additional reclaimators available. I also assumed some level of cronyism by her for positions considering her history of political machinations.

6:17 The government would have said, "Property Rights". There is NEVER just one solution. A government chooses short term solutions that are expedient to its own political survival, not efficient ones, not even the most productive ones. The people were freezing -- rather than move the people or let them find their own solution, the Bajoran government destroys not just one man's house, but an entire moon which evidently was warm and supported life? What a bargain! Now that's effective government!! Collectivism for the win. YAY😒

Saying "hippity hoppity" just to rhyme with "property" was pure gold 😂😂😂

if the Federation just gave them some fusion reactors they wouldn't have to face such a dilemma

With the reclamators, it was stated that the ones given to the Cardassian planets had to be shared by several planets. The effective ratio was less than one per planet while Bajor had one for one planet. My take from the story was that Kia Wynn wanted to shift from substantive farming to cash crop farming. It would delay the ability for Bajorans (individual citizens) to sustain themselves by their own means. And sure, there is replicated food, but this series established that replicated food is akin to canned food. It is edible, but you wouldn't want to only have that option for years or indefinitely. Both options, subsistence or cash cropping, can build a functional economy. The difference is the society that's built from it. The takeaway I got from the episode is the Kia was focusing on appearance of progress rather than actually benefiting the world. Cash crop economies rarely benefit the workers within them. It is the select few at the top who get fat off the returns. Why didn't the federation get involved? It was a purely internal affair. A federation member planet would be expected to solve such matters in their own as well. The crisis was political, not humanitarian nor environmental. Federation status isn't (or shouldn't be) handed out on a whim. The applicant has to meet a strict standard. As a protectorate, the federation is supposed to assist with foreign affairs. There is an episode on this matter where the Romulans use a Bajoran moon as a hospital, but they also hide military equipment within it. Back to the near civil war. Popular support for the reclamators was with the farmers originally promised their access. Granted, it may have started out the other way, but events played out in a way that convinced the population to support the uprising. With the eminent domain episode, popular support was to destroy the moon. That's democracy in a nutshell. It may not be the optimal outcome, but that's the price of democratic government.

Bajor is probably the best example, how hands off Federation's policy really is. In this situation the prime directive simply doesn't apply, since Bajor asked for assistance the moment Cardassia retreated and DS9 was under Federation administration or at least co-administration. Sure. If Federation would assist full on, the whole story of getting Bajor ready to join Federation would probably immensly short... But it is telling, that the Federation would throw other civilizations under the bus like that, although Bajor never would be a threat, but rather a promising ally in the best of scenarios. Besides the very latest the Dominion threat, should have been a catalyst to actually assist Bajor in it's rebuilding, other then protecting them militarily. Simply because we have seen that the Federation would start to fast forward these kind of processes. At this point I am not quite sure how the tactical situation would influence dessicions from the dominion cold war to to the outbreak into a hot war. I feel we have a missed opportunity to flesh that out in regards of Bajor's progress for a Federation membership, up untill this point. that is of course ignoring the tactical decission to deny Bajor Federation status to protect them, when the dominion war broke out and Starfleet had to retreat. I feel this mess is definately on Federation's hands, rather than Starfleet's or Bajor's.

Two things. The Bajoran's said no to Federation help plenty of times. Even Kira made it clear during the early seasons that they weren't welcome. In neither case was anyone in immediate danger. The farmers could grow enough food and the Bajorans had to remove a man and his assistants from a moon. They didn't need federation help. It was important for Bajor to prove they could basic things by themselves. Especially after they wanted to apply for Federation membership. It could also be the federation watching how a newly reformed government handles problems. Again in both cases, it wasn't an emergency. And as pointed out they were offering help such as medical aid.

As a big DS9 fan, I am not afraid to admit... I found a lot of the day to day aspects to Bajoran's stories and life rather dry and boring for me... BUT... I have a fascination with their religion and mythology, and their struggles with recovering from the Occupation from the Cardassians.

Little question on the dominion, why didn’t they have a cloaked fleet? They had dukats bird of prey or could have salvaged some from the romulan fleet they wrecked, the romulans even shared some cloaks with the cardassians during this mission, I’m sure they’d help the dominion to understand and replicate the tech

That sweet little old man, he just remodeled his kitchen. Built a sweet Pizza oven. And Kira goes and burns it all down.

Freedom is costly to the point that even death itself can be seen as release of life when it's perceived as a prison, 'I have nothing to live for' is not only an expression, it's a requisite of life, which can be either external or internalised, thus the dangers freedom poses.

Star Fleet would impose a crippling amount of regulations... they would probably want secondary backups for every means of production they had agreements to.

So they wanna destroy a perfectly inhabitants moon?

I'm proud of you this is a good video 😤

I'm pretty sure that whole situation with Shakaar and the reclamators was an attempted political assassination by Kai Winn. She lent him the reclamators saying they could use it for x amount of time but she was fully aware that he wouldn't return them when she reneged on her agreement which would give her legal grounds to arrest him. She probably planned from the begining on having Kira locked up with him. Shakaar seen this for what is was which is why he didn't fold and reformed his resistance cells. Kira seen it for herself when the officers came in to arrest Shakaar which is why she backed him. As far as the federation not helping in either circumstance it seems like lazy writing. They should have at least addressed the issue with sone dialogue. Even the dominion was providing for Bajor in the form of industrial replicators and infrastructure when they signed the none aggression pact. They even had Vorta scientists and engineers working with the provisional government on the surface while Jem'Hadar were not allowed on the planet.

You forgot that Kai Wen had done this in other Provences. She apparently has the power to suspend law and send militia whenever she feels. Question is which other ones has she done this with?

Tbh I think we overstate how resource rich the UFP is. As well said on this channel, every other ST series has a 2nd objective of undoing TNG utopianism

Watched this episode not so long ago, and had oh so many issues with it. Yes, it is tries to sell the issue of general progress in a 45 min way, but it tries to sell that a spacefaring civilization, that for some reason still mostly lives on planets and other gravity well hell holes (ok, stop the tangent that most SF is stupid by default) would destroy an entire human (forehead wrinkle or not) rated stellar object for enough energy to heat 10K homes. Yes, they destroy an area for millions to heat 10K homes, that is around 10-100 km2 solar panels today, not spacefaring whatever, or realistically a single shuttlecraft power plant, irrelevant if it is fission, fusion, antimatter or black hole based. So by definition the premise is stupid beyond reason. And yet, the provisional government never heard of eminent domain or similar law, which solves this issue, if needed. You provided (in a normal case) fair and equal compensation and you are not asked to leave your own property, you asked to leave the government property. The funny part, a few episode later we find out that they left working spacecrafts here and there, since even that is a non value, like today we let cars rotting in some field or cave, but that spacecrafts powerplant should be used as better energy source than the "core of the moon." Oh, and they could wait a year or two and save the living environment and get the power and let the people stay. How fucked up has to be the entire bajor for this? I mean if it has more than a few million population, than energy sharing should be a possibility for that winter, and if it has a realistic few billion, than the 10K home heating energy is not even a statistical anomaly in the global energy grid. If they had even todays tech level, not spacefaring warpusing, than installing temporary generators for the few homes should be below something worth bothering the superimportant spacestation.

What I find questionable is the whole Bajor/Federation dynamic. The Federation doesn't really seem to go out of its way to give Bajor the hardware they need to rebuild.

Why is there an assumption there was not a contract on the reclamators? Just because they didn't say it was 'illegal' doesn't mean there wouldn't have been a binding agreement. Just building a schedule for the use of the equipment would require even a basic contract.

I'd say in Shakar they were wrong. Making a promise and going back on said promise to give the reclemators for a year is how people grow to hate their politicians. This is why they should have had contracts.

Power flows from the emitter of a disruptor.

Thing is, eminent domain tends to pick winners and losers.

A similar concept also happened with the Jaffa in Stargate. They were essentially a race breed to serve and fight creatures pretending to be gods. Once those "gods" were overthrown, a new system of government needed to be in place but because most if not ALL of Jaffa culture was based under their former oppressors, it was hard for the fledging nation to come into its own. There was massive cultural differences, incredible amount of sexism, mostly forced on them from their oppressors and distrust. Revolution and the fight for freedom is easy with a common enemy to unite against but once the enemy has been taken out, the unity will collapse

Great video, Lore. And yes, the producers and writers knew that you would be commenting on their work 30 years later, and knew of your comment section. 😂

about time someone talks about this, I like the way you don't beat around the bush and go straight to the point.

Why not ask Quark. It's a simple agricultural futures loan. The Ferengi loan the reclamation equipment for a season in return for 10 percent of the gross receipts

Bajor follows the Spock philosophy, “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”

If there’s no contract (other than a verbal one) that Shakar gets to keep the reclamators then there’s also probably not a contract saying he has to give them back. When the first link in the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Why is a group of people more important than another?

Kira burning that guy's house down. Was a little cruel but I felt it necessary. As far as the recelemator situation it seems that she obviously got upset and felt that she was taken advantage of . Which in truth she was Winn had no intention of allowing her to try to talk him into returning their equipment. What she should have done is go to the federation in the first place. Then go and get their equipment back. As they say hindsight is 20/20.

I guess I view the second episode differently. Yes, Bajor had replicator technology, but it wasn't the soil would have a low crop yield, the way I understood it is there would be almost NO crop yield, that the soil was too toxic without reclamation to grow anything at all. Shakaar was defending his livelihood and his home, as without being able to grow crops, he would have nothing to sell to get money to live. It's also clear that replicators aren't as common on Bajor as they are in the Federation; we don't see one in Shakaar's home, but we do see cooking equipment. Maybe you need money to buy one; they could be expensive and Bajor isn't past the whole "currency based economics" thing like Earth is. You still need money to function in Bajoran society. I can understand being furious enough to fight back if the government tried to tell you they're taking your ability to earn a living away so they can make some money themselves with exports. It's also not uncommon for former rebels or resistance fighters to fall back on what they are used to doing when faced with government edict they find unfair; consider the Whiskey Rebellion in the early days of the United States.

Winn was in a bit of a tough spot as the head of a new government. You can't just let people defy the wishes of the government without repercussions but at the same time you can't drop the hammer every time somebody jay walks. There has to be some give and take and Winn was just too damn quick to hammer anybody who stood in her way. She was run out of office due to her own heavy handed actions and rightfully so. Had she had just a modicum of patients, this whole thing could have been worked out and she could have kept her office and enhanced her position by showing that she was willing to compromise.

Lore your the best great video i have seen this here in Puerto Rico i who work for the state is not easy for me

It would seem to me that rather than being put in the position to displace any of their own citizens, or have to use a limited amount of reclamators, the Provisional Government should have instead put some pressure on the Federation. The initial setup of the series, which carried through toward the end, was that Bajor was having its application to join the Federation under review, and that until such a time that they gained membership, they were under the protection of the Federation. Sisko was obviously invested in its well-beling, and likely would have been able to secure some additional resources for Bajor, especially given how strategically important it became with the discovery of the wormhole. It would have been in the Federation's best interest to do so as well in order to gain a stronger partnership with a world on the cusp of membership. The only reason I can think of as to why the Provisional Government didn't was, perhaps, many of them thought initially like Nerys did, and there was great hesitancy to rely on the Federation. But then again, perhaps as a goodwill gesture the Federation could have offered them the resources they needed at the outset in order to rebuild their planet. But then again that might reduce the conflict and the show wouldn't be as interesting.

"A government can't exist if any time it makes a move people pick up guns, and your almost at civil war, and hen they knda just agree with the persons who wanted to start that civil war. It just wont last." Very well said Lore. If only half of the politicians in Washington and the January 6th crowd understood that collectively. Or maybe they do. But that's another problem.

I always interpreted as Winn wanting to move the reclamators to a more populated province, to create more favour for her in the coming election, which if i am not mistaken was very close...

What I find the most interesting is the Bajoran system in regards to the Federation. You mentioned the strange intermittent help of the Federation to Bajor and I believe it isn't that strange at all. Not if the Federation is psychologically manipulating Bajor into having the exact type of government that would fit into the Federation ideals. If you think about it, the Federation only supplies help when it ultimately benefits them. Whether that be helping Kira sew discord by taking a hands-off approach or offering equipment to 'Get them on their feet" when the situation becomes serious enough. This makes Bajor economically and most importantly psychologically dependent on the Federation.

While the Federation wasn't acting quickly that was the point. They had help get the Bajorns back on their feet and moving in a positive direction. So not giving the Bajoran government more reclimators when they ask for them is the right decision. Because we see the failings of the government they told one group you have this equipment for 1 year, but then turn around and say we changed our minds. Shakaar doesn't do any better because he does jump to conflict too easily. Given the head of the Bajorn government has been shown to be a liar I can't blame Shakaar, the man could have had flashbacks to the occupation and Cardassian rule thinking things will get worse if he doesn't act now. The Federation also choosing to not give military aid is the right call. This whole situation is a test for Bajorns can they govern themselves in a moral and peaceful way. At this point the answer is no. The government can not make good on its policies and promises, they're trying to run before they can walk. Later in the series the Bajorns would do a much better job such as dealing with the fact that a Romulan hospital was really a military base in Bajorn space. So the Bajorns would blockade the area so if the Romulans tried run it they would be prepared to fight so a foreign military base isn't established in their borders.

Getting near 100,000 subscribers!

in 'Shakaar' Kira uses a quasi-coup to stop a possible coup from Kai Winn's consolidation of power

The Federation was not much help at all was it.😂 To be fair this is taking place after the disastrous battle against the Borg after which the goals of the Federation largely changed into taking military advantageous positions rather than helping its fellow citizens and those under its "protection"

Well done

The problem with including the Federation's "post-scarcity" economy in any analysis is that the Federation economy is incredibly inconsistent in its presentation. They aren't as post-scarcity as they are sometimes, even explicitly stated to be. They can't be, or the tension of several episodes in the franchise would totally evaporate. I suspect that it's truly post-scarcity only at the level of common needs, such as food, water, shelter, most medicines, social facility, recreational options etc. The Federation still has to deal with scarcity for many resources, like dilithium and bio-mimetic gel, that they cannot seem to replicate, as well as whatever resources are needed to keep replicators produced and maintained. Based on this presumption, it would make sense that the Federation would be a good position to provide quite a lot of aid to Bajor, but not unlimited in their provision of industrial equipment given that some Federation colonies are still under development as well at any given time. This would also be consistent with the Federation's disparity when they provided industrial replicators to both Cardassia and Bajor.

I think your a little hard on the federation with bajor rebuilding and seemingly at each others throats they had to ask can we trust them yet with technical help, remember replicators can help rebuild but can also be used to make weapons, who knows what would happen if reactors and reclimarors were not maintained. Just some thoughts

I always felt, that the federation not giving aid, is just another example of the prime directive just being used to justify being monsters at heart. Kirk made it pretty clear the prime directive could and should be broken to save lives of thousands+ of innocents. In fact Starfleet in that era, also seemed to make it pretty clear that it's right to do so, siding with him pretty much every time in any after math that followed. It wouldn't be that hard for starfleet to step in, and render aid, while the bajorans use the geothermal energy generated in a much more environmentally suitable method over the course of that year.

In the first case, its "emanate domain". The government can choose to seize the land, often paying a "fair market value" which really doesn't cover buying new land elsewhere... to turn the land into public use land. the US does this all the time, however more recently they have done it for companies... so homes will be "seized" so a shopping mall or factory can be built in its place, under the justification that... said land is going to help the people as a whole. Originally this was only done to create national parks, or if major projects like dams, highways, or such were being built. in the second case, what is happening darker. The government is choosing on growth for export, to make money on export taxes, a the cost of its own people. This is very similar to what happened/happens in many banana republics. These governments sacrifice their own people going as far as to let them starve to death, sometimes by the millions, to ensure "export crops" can take priority. Russian famine... and the Irish famine. in the Irish case, the people were starving but food, grain, and such were still being shipped to England, this spawned a civil war as irish demanded to stop the export of food, and have it redirected to their own people. I think it would have been more impactful IF... we knew there were real stakes, if we knew people would suffer, starve, possibly even die becaues the land couldn't support them without the replicators... and that they would either have to give up and leave... losing everything and becoming refugees again... or stay there and risk dieing of starvation because, to the government, exports were more important.

"for everyone to have freedom; every man is called to give up a portion of his own freedom"

I thought the reason why the federation didn't interest is that they wanted bajor to stand on their own as a potential future federation member as opposed to being a parasitic state wholy dependant on federation aid. So Starfleet would help with medical aid/exchanges and help mediade certain disputes as a neutral party, but would not involve itself within the day to day running of the bajoran state. In the first scenario the situation is cut and dry. Sure he's a sweet old Man Vs the government... But at the same time the other occupants of that moon had also left (begrudgenly or under protest we do not know, as that would of course muddy the waters Futher), but in other episodes in season 1 and 2 we see how powercuts are even effecting the well off bajoran, and even in the episode with Shankar we see that most homes are still being lit by candles - power is nsleeded, and sure detonating the moon might not be the most efficient way to generate power... But how many winters under a cardassian occupation saw bajoran bodies pile up? With the reclimatirs I think a better understanding of how the technology works would have better explained certain ideas. For example, do the reclimatirs need to be active for a set amount of time to permanently remove the toxicity from the soil? If that's the case than its an argument of the Kai's ambitions Vs the realities of how the techniques are used (almost like a real world example of a politician claiming that in 2 weeks the yeilds if 1 type of crop will be ready to ship to market at twice the usual volume... Despite farmers telling them "but it's not the season for growing crop type 1... What your asking is impossible"). But without an understanding of how these reclimatirs work it's just an argument regarding good faith and a newly appointed political leader wanting to throw their weight around (as the previous first minister had just died, hence why Wynn was acting first minister).

The Federation not sharing enough equipment is allowing for a few great episodes, but is a plot hole that you can dig pretty deep. Either as Lore states the Federation is being jerks not sharing or it's just a stupid reason for the episode. The Federation is supposed to be kind helpful and generous is that just an image they want to give out or is there an actual resource limit to federation and they can't share more or have rules about giving this shit out?

Honestly, yes. Others would go cold if the option to warm them means removing someone from their property. It's extreme, but such is the way of liberty. It's inconvenient, but I don't break moral systems just because the alternative is inconvenient or uncomfortable. The Federation were the bad guys here. See, the standard you whole is inconsistent, or at the very least, completely subjective. You say that it's wrong to put the needs of the many over the needs of the few, if it means violating the few's basic rights. But that it must be done in moderation. Well, that's entirely subjective. Who decides in what moderation and when? It can effectively be used to justify any atrocity committed towards any individual or small group just by saying that we determined in this case that a moderate trampling of their rights is pragmatically beneficial for the majority. Pragmatism is a trap that leads to a quick descent into hell. Not lakes of fire, but of moral death.

if everyone has a gun, your gun is worth 1 vote. That's the moral of the story.

At 9:42. If the Bajorans had an extensive history of lawyers and corporations like we have now, they would be living in the paradise that we currently occupy. They could have destroyed the Cardassians by using a corporate takeover and then suing them in civil court for pain and suffering.

The impression that I got from Shakaar was that the Bajoran government went back on the reclamators deal as an excuse suspend the local governments.

Got to love those early ds9 plot arc I wonder if the bajorans are based on the Irish and ira?

This reminds me of Harry Truman, a man who lived on Spirit Lake at Mt. St. Helens before the 1980 eruption. He was informed that the volcano was going to erupt and that he would die, meaning he needed to evacuate. Truman refused and said that he was willing to die as that was his home. And so he did. Nobody should be forced to leave their home if they do not want to. Some people do not want to be saved. They just want to be left alone, even if that means their death. In the end, the only choice we really have as Humans is weather we live or die. If that choice is taken away from us, whats the point of living? Life for the sake of life means nothing. As Humans, we need to accept the fact that we cant save everybody, and that not everybody wants to be saved. Sometimes, we just need to let people be, even if it feels like the wrong thing to do. Because as Humans, we are fallible, and our feelings can sometimes lie to us, making us do bad things for what we perceive to be the right reasons. Then, all of a sudden, we become the very thing we were fighting against, only to rationalize and make excuses for why we are different...when we really arnt. Just remember, the Cardassians thought they were the good guys too.

I think it comes down to need if as Lore stated they would be fine without it then fine maybe they should give it back but I thought they were a little worse off I thought they were struggling and were promised them. We don't have hard evidence of things are Shikaar and the rest of Kira's resistance group. Are they going to suffer greatly without them will they have barely enough to eat in winter or pay their bills? do they bills to pay or debt? If they are fine as Lore views it fine the government should've negotiated better for the return of the equipment, but when they sent in troops to reclaim they not only went too far it was stupid move and they lost to the better army for this their resistance fighters and it cost her her position in government.

As far as I remember they didn't kill one Bajoran officer! They only used the threat of killing them! Even the ones at the house were only knocked out. So yeah, while Shakar isn't the most reasonable, I wouldn't have let myself be arrested just because the government can't keep their promise (those reclamators were there to increase crop-yields, but they weren't done with that when they demanded them back...so yeah, they should have negotiated and I agree that Shakar shouldn't have simply turned them over!)

have they given up on the Enterprise Rewrite project ?

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Sounds familiar.

Numbers or individuality

I may be wrong but it always seemed to me that the cultural, psychology societal damage done by the Cardassian occupation of Bajor has made it's people highly conflicted. Racial, ethnic or cultural self hatred has historically known to occur in a people who have been conquered and subjugated over an extended period of time. This may explain why conflict between Bajorans could arise so easily. As for the Federation we must remember that half the Bajoran population did not trust outsiders. Many did not want the Federation's presence let alone their help, even after things because of Federation help got better to where many, including the leadership, are wanting Federation membership. I can not speak to the specific details, but it looks to me that once again regarding things Bajoran the Federation must walk political tight rope and therefore could not help in ways they otherwise would.

Tearing up a moon seems silly to me. Bajor couldn't buy solar panels from the Ferengi or others? No facilities for 21st century manufacturing? They couldn't borrow a Runabout and plug it into a provincial grid for a season? Well at least they had a better reason than the city of LA did to Chavez Ravine to build Dodgers stadium.

I liked the "Progress", I know that others didn't.

they seriously need to invest in more farm equipment

Wait bajorans died in this episode? Do we see that?

The bajorians, the perfect example of a failed symbiosis between the logical and the spiritual.

Its the same like Clean Energy. Mostly all in my country wants Clean Energy. But please not in my neigbourhood. And the Peoble in Cities with good Public Transportsystems wand to forbid driving cars nationwide regardless if Peoble in Rural Comunities has public Transportsystems

Think of the children!! Think of the children...Sir!!

Short term losses, long term gains if only they suffered a little now.

in Progress the question as to whether or not the Bajoran government owns the moons. keep in mind that the old Bajoran government no longer exists and thus any territory that it once had is no longer owned by it. that moon was not part of the Cardasian occupation, and thus he was part of a sovereign entity. this makes it different from the Bajorans moving one of their citizens, and instead is a hostile takeover. the Bajoran government saw something they wanted and took it from others that were not willing to give it up. it isn't a question of rights, but of might and conquest. in Shakaar the government did trample the rights of the individuals, as they did not uphold their own rules. this is tyrannical, as Plato and Socrates has opined. as the government isn't upholding their word, which means this is also a question of might, and whether or not an individuals rights is a check against such might. the answer of the Kai is that might makes right, and the freedom fighters have decided that the government must uphold its word. in both cases the problem which drives the story forward is a political one, but the initial problem is an engineering one. in Progress they need the heat from one of the moons, which given that the moon is nearby makes it convenient if the issue is a substance that is taken, or a necessity if they are transmitting the heat as energy. if it is the later then that one moon is not needed, and the use of replicators means that a satellite could be built that would work better than just siphoning it from an interstellar body. this means that the conflict is unneeded if you could remove politics from the equation. in Shakaar the issue is whether or not it is better to feed ones own people or earn enough money to buy food from another to feed your people. the Kai decided she would rather make money due to the political benefits, while the previous minister decided that being self sufficient was more important. of course the real issue is the shortage of a device in a society which can replicate most if not all of the device. this means that either they did not want to use the replicator to avoid conflict (and be able to both feed its own people and make a ton of money), and whether or not they would have to also cut a deal with someone for something which cannot be replicated. if they had to cut a deal that would be politicians doing their job as part of a helpful part of society, and thus earning their keep, but that was not what they did. thus in this story the politicians took without contributing, and proved themselves more a liability than a benefit. these episodes are really good at showcasing the issue of government. on the one hand the Bajorans fought against one government that they did not like, on the other they supported a government that was doing things they did not like. in the second case they supported the existence of the government, in spite that all it did was take due to its societal position. in the first case they rebelled against the government even though it held a ruling position in society. in both cases the government had the same positional authority, but only in the later did they respect it. in both cases the government took without contributing, but only in the later did they respect it. the key difference is that Cardasians were not a part of the government in the later case, this does raise the question is if the Bajorans are specieist. if we look at how the Federation is treated in the series, and that such an organization is seemingly marxist, then we see that the marxist idea that those of the same type get along simply because they are the same type is at play with the Bajorans. the Bajorans are fine with Tyranny, so long as that Tyranny is done by fellow Bajorans. as the Bajorans grow as a society they will divide themselves, and in that division they will no longer be the same type, and thus conflict will arise. the Bajorans are definitely going to fight among themselves, unless they are admitted to the federation and have a whole other way of othering people and ensuring that Bajorans don't other themselves.

How about the wrongness of a religious leader being a civil leader?

I just ate 8 cookies.

The needs of the many out weight the needs of the few.

point point point times infinity

The only reason there is a bajor is because gul dukat didnt destroy it. He could have won at any time. One galor class cruiser could have orbitally bombarded bajor into oblivion. The bajorans owe dukat their very lives. Were another gul in charge,one who didnt have an ounce of humanity, thed have done just that. I dont think enough people give dukat the credit hes due.

Great Star Trek has never been about things; it is about people. The central problem in "Shakaar" is not with the proprieties of Bajoran contract law; it is that Kai Wynn is a megalomaniac and cannot be allowed to hold power.

For those b!tching about the Federation not helping. : The show had stated many times before that Bajorans saw the Federation as being no different than the Cardassians, and, actually, you have to have CERTAIN types of governing styles to be apart of the federation. No slaves, caste systems, meet a certain lvl of development and so on. The biggest part of the issue was they were not Federation, hence allocation of resources would obviously be denied, Sisko was there to only guide. Not intervene. They needed to fulfil certain criteria to join, and want to join. Again, you should probably watch the show, or at least do more research.

This was the episode that showed DS9 was not a copy of TNG.

*endlessly points out the thing.*

_Certainly a government tries to help all of it's people?_ Where do you get a ludicrously *naive* idea like that?

Kinda make the Federation look really bad, like if the Federation solve all these issues long ago then they could easily provide technology and education to the Bajorian so these issues wouldn't come up

How does this story even make sense technologically? Know if this was an abuse if Imminent Domain was abused to build a Space-Mart....

the feeling your property is never really yours SUCKS!

One answer THE FEDARATION they could off done it they could of helped.

Emanate Domain laws