One my favorite, if not my very favorite story has a character ask “what is magic?” and gets the answer that is rooted in anthropology. That divine intervention is a Miracle or Act-of-God. What I do is a skill or technique. The Others have magic: the Gypsies curse in Buffy, the Indian Burial Ground in The Shining, the Magical Negro helping white protagonists in American fiction, the witches pact with Satan, etc. I forgot the never-humans: leprechauns, yoKai, fairy, demons, monsters… I’m writing this after staying awake 23hrs straight. My point is powerless minority groups are feared and attacked. Retroactively, Magic is attributed to them as justification for our brutality. Why am I still typing?

It worked, thank you.

Yes thank you.

It succeeded 🎉

It worked

It worked!

That's a great breakdown!

Oh! I didn't think about that! The only example I can think of right now is Mumbo from Teen Titans. Do you have any other examples?

@@moonangel97 I like the Bard from D&D for this. They do have real magic, but almost their entire spells can be flavored as mechanical tools and slight of hand. I also played a stage magician in a Dresden Files campaign that could do the stuff, which unfortunately,and fortunately for writers, is pretty much where it ends, with incredibly fertile ground. Though the Now You See Me movies skirt with it.

So pretty much all the "sleight of hand" tricks in the Now You See Me movies?

@@Mercadian Pretty much, though there are a few tricks even I can do. Which is why it might be one I like, being a dabbler with the goal of becoming a magician so I'm biased.

@@angrytheclown801I know how some are done (I used to want to be a magician but I gave that up after some issues with my joints), but, especially in the 2nd movie, there are just some impossible feats of sleight of hand.

Yes well the magic from gods can work too. Particularly if it is kind of activated by prayer.

@@elderscrollsswimmer4833 sure but "clerics" are warlock's. And "gods" is a very blurry term. The point however is that even if the author never says where or how magic came about limits magic and you can feel the effects in the story. For example a universe where "magic" exists would have massive impact on the way societies develop and depending on what the magic does it would shape societies differently. As an example magic may cause societies to skip the need for metal making wooden swords and armor more practical and speed up social development. It could also eliminate the need for metal in skyscrapers.

Magical chants were made by a powerful mage/god for the people

@@Vugtis_El_VillaVODS mages are gods, but that doesn't really address the problem. It's the difference between saying when you drop something it falls, and teaching me about gravity. How/why is it that vibrations (a chant) work? Is a chant nothing more than pinging Alexa or Google with a verbal prompt?

@@Vugtis_El_VillaVODS also how did that God discover magic and begin to understand the principles? Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

berries - the most powerful magical item

@@maksymiliank5135 the *most* _most_ powerful item: ball

So far the most comprehensive magic system is likely from Mage: The Ascension TRPG. Where magic is basically build purely on 'world view' also call 'paradigm' of a mage. If your world view is one of science, then you perform magic via hyper-science. If you are taught & believe in hermitic style, you use magic like spell & rituals of wizards. If you are of religious order, so on so forth. So all the factions, sub-factions encompass all kinds of magic users. Voodoo priest to Egyptian cults to cyberpunk hackers.

@@biocapsule7311 That actually sounds really cool, magic based on being exceptional at just about anything. Makes me wonder how the Guinness world records would work there lol

@@ChromaticGlasses Doesn't work like that... because you believe you are exceptional at everything, doesn't mean others believe the same. Your magic has to combat the believe of the rest of reality. The premise of Mage the Ascension is the war for all of reality.

I disagree with the last part. Left, right, and middle path will swallow your base nature, for better or worse, for elevation or self desructive changes that may play out over years or even decades. Generally, the more foreign and the more the source of magic demands, the greater the changes. Some change will be required if one is to increase one's power. The question is, if it changes one's own true nature, or frees it.

man this is like the entire magic system of mistborn

I feel like that is not really a distinction between magic system but the plot significance of the magic. Many magic systems have two or all of them is some aspects, where which is used when and by whom often signifies the morality of the situation.

"Middle path" feels like right hand path to me. What's the difference?

This is a good explanation for types of FUEL for magic. If magic is limited or requires energy, these are good ways to think of WHERE that energy comes from.

There is one other way I have seen Magic categorized into 4 types as well. Just done very differently, while this video does it through the flavor of spells, magical items, divine intervention, and enhancements. The other one doesn’t give a quality, but adds more limits to it, I guess. Effectively, ever Magic system lies somewhere within a quadrant between two axis: either Soft vs Hard or Rational vs Irrational. Under those rules, if something is say a Soft Rational system, then you get something like Tolkien’s work. Tolkien’s work is mostly Soft Rational, because there is typically very little explained in the Magic system within the plot, but that very little is only the tip of the iceberg in a much larger and expansive system. Or there is Soft Irrational, which a lot of superhero material lies where its origin and mechanics aren’t really explained because there isn’t much need to. While something more Hard Rational would be much of Brandon Sanderson’s work or maybe Nen from Hunter X Hunter, in that you could get a college degree on it. Lastly Hard Irrational a lot of times you might see in horror, like Lovecraft where there are extensive rituals but those sources of power are unexplainable.

​@@fenrirsilver6441 the way you explained it, and then gave broad, well known examples so people like me can understand I have 2 words for you: thank you.

Could it be Spellwright?

Fablehaven. It totally isnt but I liked the magic in it

@@ravecutabodiu2544 “Spellwright” is a hilarious title for this scenario 😂

@DCGolden247, that’s not a coincidence

Dude...that was sooo spot on...I'm impressed.

I'm guessing that "The Gerosha Chronicles" employs the Marlquaan as a sort of "god energy" then. Because only a connection to it grants anyone that kind of power in that world. From there, specific types of connection result in each user playing by slightly different rules. And yet, the Marlquaan only can operate so long as another God tolerates it doing so. And even then, very few are bestowed it automatically. Most have to actively acquire a bond, usually through utilization of Marlquaanite rubies. Which are not always easy to obtain. And then there are differing schools of thought on the use of them. Which is what leads to the two biggest at-war religions in that world: - The Order of the Oraphim, which wants God, not raw power, to become man's focus, and believes the Marlquaan is a tool that few should ever be allowed to use, as it can become a distraction. It wants to find and hide Marlquaan rubies, so as to ensure that they don't become too widespread of knowledge, and that they don't become widely used, nor that their trade become a large enough economy in its own right that one should ever fall into the wrong hands. - The Society of the Icy Finger, which wants to overthrow God, and believes in controlling the rubies and world supply of them, to maximize and concentrate them toward the creation of a new Abdygalis Shard, for the express purpose of their cult concentrating power unto itself to achieve its ultimate goal. The Order will limit even its own power, lest it go to their heads and they become conceited, because they don't want mankind to think that the gift of the Marlquaan is an adequate substitute for God, lest mankind destroy itself with such delusion. But will do so at the expense of limiting access of it to those who could sometimes use it effectively for a good cause. Thus enabling mediocre evildoers to commit more crimes with less resistance from the enhanced, if only to ensure that its power cannot corrupt. The Icy Finger will knowingly try to maximize its own power, so they can wreak havoc and bombard regions with assaults too chaotic to be combated. The Order has always been more efficient at winning the arms race; but that has only made the Icy Finger more desperate to do whatever is necessary to turn the tide. And then every other faction in that world is affected by the arms race one way or another. Some are able to ignore it completely. Some are forced to choose sides. Yet, every faction has its own distinct priorities. - The Order is preoccupied primarily with stopping the Icy Finger from gaining more power and influence. Not necessarily so it can have that power and influence for itself, but only so that the evil that the Icy Finger represents can't grow, and can be dealt with by others. Winning the ruby arms race and keeping "magic" in that world under control and out of the hands of those unfit to have it is their primary focus. - The Sodality Church and Sodality of Gerosha are primarily concerned with the spiritual welfare of those who've been affected by the arms race, and also with keeping the monsters created by the arms race under control. They're the guys that send missionaries to a region affected by something like a Hebbleskin werewolf attack, that evangelize the locals and help rebuild homes that get torn apart. And also that form a league of superheroes to deal with threats such as whatever monster-of-the-week the Hebbleskin Gang sends out. - The Navyropes are primarily concerned with stopping the enemy's ability to cement political power, as well as becoming a force to push back against abuses of the state. - The Hebbleskin Gang wishes to serve the Hebbleskin Dynasty back on the planet Metheel, and gain control over much of the Earth by using its evil mutant Frankenstein experiments to create monsters that will help it enslave humanity. It believes that with enough of this, it will eventually be able to graduate into being a legitimate power body in its own right, and not have to rely on being involved with things like human trafficking and drugs to finance itself. They're willing to become lackeys to the Icy Finger, and share power, if only to continue serving their main goal. - The Phaletori want to establish their own equivalent version of a Hebbleskin Dynasty on the world of Phaeleel, and overthrow the Phaelite Society there that they see as "weak," "outdated," and "shortsighted." Earth is merely their backwater base and storage warehouse for all their supplies for this insurrection. The Triumvirate, and Icy Finger, are a means to an end. And then there's Nordreichdun. A bizarre Krampus cult that merely wants to do Krampus things, and only aids the Order and its other allies because the Icy Finger's power lust and Hebbleskins' human trafficking operations make the Triumvirate as much a threat to the Krampus cult as to the hero factions. They're a major thorn in the side of the main villain factions, because of their tendency to abduct / eat minions of these factions. They're also the most embarrassing and creepy ally the hero factions have, whom they wish to minimize association with. It'd be like an Eskimo goth nazi from out of nowhere randomly helping you out of a tight spot against the NWO. You're grateful they saved your life against a greater evil; but you're still hesitant to call them an outright friend. After all: you're pretty sure they'll betray you at some point.

Crafted magic just is a permanent version of magic. It could come from any of the other 3 types. Doesn't feel like it's own type.

@@charleshaines9715 No, the magic is inherent to the object itself. No spells are put on it. It just has a magical effect once it’s been made.

@@dodiswatchbobobo but the item didn't have magic until it was made to be so. How did it obtain that magic? Was it divine intervention? Was it by some sort of recipe with ingredients? What was it's activation. Magic items are just spells that keep on going. Sometimes they are giving the effects of a speel that resemble ability augmentation. Any and all of these classifications are just lines in the sand. Draw them however you would like, and whatever makes it easier for you

Warlocks _or_ clerics. They're really two sides of the same coin, and it annoys me that D&D doesn't play with that dichotomy at all.

Clerics, paladins, druids, rangers, and warlocks are all variations on deriving power from something outside yourself. I feel like they should all have mechanics for keeping the source of their power happy, and consequences for failing to do so. I know technically 5e says that paladins get their power from their oath and not a god, but that's just one line in a description, and otherwise they didn't change anything.

Original DnD also had psionics. Mostly super powers of thought that could break your opponent’s brain. Killing, stunning or controlling them. Then it mostly got dumped onto mind flayers. The movie Scanners is a good “real world” example. Not sure how you’d categorize this. Later psionics allowed for spell like abilities.

@@dearthditchthere are also a lot of spells that are flavored around this-especially when you take Warlock of the Great Old One (you get telepathy at level one). For example, Dissonant Whispers, Charm Person, and Crown of Madness all mess with your opponents’ brains and can be flavored as psychics

Nen is actually kind of weird because it's essentially programmed magic. Your unique ability is whatever you want it to be within the realm of your own capabilities and the restrictions you put on it, but once it's defined that's it. Because of this there's not exactly anything stopping you from setting up your powers to function like someone else's other than your own abilities, though if you're doing this it probably won't be as effective as the other person's.

@@xdragoonzero0 I'm pretty sure the reason it's still counted as a power system is mainly because of the fact that even if you program Nen like someone else's it's still a unique ability and it's very much still yours, it's not like multiple people can automatically use it or can just learn to use it over time. It's your unique ability, even if it's copying someone else's.

So unique manifestation vs shared learnable magic.. although even this is fiddly.

In most stories magic isn't something anyone can use?

@@Ninjamanhammer Yes, and yes. It seems like I have explained it wrong : a magic system is a form of magic that wizards or really any form of magic users can utilize, This doesn't really mean that the normal populace can access it. Meanwhile a power system takes place in a world where most people have unique powers ( or at least in a world where powers are unique and more diverse than magic since everyone could probably learn the same spell ).

Can you elaborate on the second paragraph more?

Definitely. Like how Isaac Asimov’s Laws of Robotics worked for his stories but aren’t something that be extended to the genre as a whole

Biblical magic is quite interesting when you think about it in relation to magic systems. Like, the magicians of Egypt can replicate miracles but they can’t create their own miracles (and even their miracle replication is limited since they can’t create something as small as an insect.)

That's a really cool idea for a magic system! I love the idea that their manipulation of magic is based on how it awakens. So is each person unique in how they control magic? Or are there certain preexisting classifications? If each person is unique, how do they figure out how to control their magic?

⁠​⁠​⁠@@moonangel97In terms of the mechanism for control, that is unique to each person (the example above). To expand on the idea, I think I would have the spells be a combination of how a person focuses their power, like the charcoal runes example, along with some type of mana/willpower from which they draw their power. I think this would allow for a baseline “every day” power level which can be furthered with training, alongside a heightened “life or death” temporary surge in power level, which could show the true power of magic/the wielder. As for magic within the world, I think that the mana/willpower works well, as it allows for a fast and loose system (although with some structure from what is “known”) where arcanists can use magic to manipulate the world. What people see/have heard about is possible if they have the will to manifest it, hopefully removing the obstacle caused by such a variety of focus mechanisms. It could also allow for limited spell casting without a focus, although perhaps rare and exhausting. I might also add that a person’s awakening, as well as the discovery of a focus, would give that person an affinity with magic surrounding the circumstances of the awakening. Going back to the charcoal runes example, this person would have an affinity with fire magic, although would be more than capable of wielding other magic too. Edit: to be clear, I am coming up with this as I write the comment, feedback appreciated

That’s cool! Would the event that triggered the awakening be the reason a person’s magic takes a certain form or was their magic always going to take that form and being in the situation just caused them to awaken?

@@buttercupup3687 The form taken by a person’s focus is predetermined, the awakening is more akin to an experience of discovery. It also cannot be forced (think something along the lines of the film Deadpool) so while everyone could wield magic, only some are destined too.

This reminds me of the trigger events from Worm. People gain a unique super power in an extreme traumatic moment. The powers are mostly in the spell and enhancement categories, but they vary in application from area of effect to touch based to line of sight and more.

While, semantically, you're correct, I think calling it an enchantment to not hurt mortals does get the point across. I noticed this too but I thought it was basically harmless, and only those of us who have read the books would even know that there is a difference, let alone if that difference really matters in the grand scheme of things

I came here to look for this comment and make it myself if I couldn’t find it but the person above is right 🤷🏽‍♂️

What exactly is this magic system and what's your book about?

That's a really deep concept and I love it. Sounds a little Persona-esque. It's gonna be a struggle though; there isn't really a good way to do this unless you're pretty on the up with actual psychology or are willing to just say, "Screw it, it's fictional. Let's have fun!" My approach would be this; a dualistic system of Cleansing and Binding Magic. Cleansing is the practice of healing oneself and cleansing enemies of their maledictions, thus pacifying them and perhaps turning them to your side by bringing out their better natures. Binding would be the practice of harnessing the Monster's power by literally binding it to serve the Mage or even destroying it entirely. In this way the Mage gains control of the regions of his mind by culling Monsters that do not serve him and using those that do as slaves.

@@user-th9jt4es5i thank you for the input. I have been trying to study psychology to refine said magic system so I know it needs to cure the affliction set by the dream demons which your cleansing proposal wonderfully encapsulates but it’s also used to physically enhance the users and to attack said dream demons so they are weak enough to cleanse- said magic needs to be done with a clear mind as it can go haywire without one to show how a negative mind can have negative impacts on the body

@@user-th9jt4es5i Sorry for messaging again but apparently my comment got deleted. Thank you for the input and I think I’ll use the cleansing recommendation so I thank you highly for it

FFXIV has a specific class with a move that takes despair and then banishes it. Perhaps you can start with something simplistic like that, removing a supposedly bad emotion?

@@iantaakalla8180 Thank you, I’ll try that

True

Thank you! I will definitely be checking this out. I LOVE potion based magic systems!!

Nope, it's circular: just as sufficiently advanced science is practically magic if you don't understand how it works, sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from *science* . If it is explained enough and grounded in laws of nature that is.

​@essneyallen6777 from the standpoint of the person using the magic/science, yes the term changes based on how well you understand the subject. What I was talking about is a third party trying to understand an event they observed. If they understand it, then science. The farther from their understanding, the less they observed.

It's all clickbait.

(Not here to argue, I'm just opening a discussion) IMO Powder Mage's magic system isn't that unique, fundamentally it's about ingesting X material to get abilities. What I find more unique is the setting - there's a lot of medieval/ancient civilisation ones out there, or modern urban fantasy, but flintlock ones are rare in comparison. And in those, you usually get a division between the magic users and the fighters (aside from some enchanted items or specific-effect enhancements). Western-style fantasies tend not to have mages who are also good at physically fighting as well, but this is one good example and the fact it's gunpower-based gives them some nifty restrictions. So for any work, the magic system doesn't need to be 100% unique to feel fresh, how it fits within the world can do the trick too.

@@TF_NowWithExtraCharacters I think the uniqueness does come from the Victorian setting as well. I would also say having a limit on what one can do magically based upon a consumable physical object on the user's person is fairly unique and it is really fitting with that Victorian setting that black powder was the chosen consumable. I also agree that unique is not a 1:1 for a good magic system.

Thanks so much!

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I personally think Sanderson is kind of a Hack in terms of his ideas about magic systems. He treats fantasy like Science fiction, and that is definitely a way it can be done, but it doesn't have to be, and it's not superior to do so.

To be fair, Sanderson acknowledges that (it’s several of his fans who don’t).

Thank you so much!!

Thank you so much!! "Hello Future Me" was the first channel to really get me into the booktube world. I love his videos.

Rather than "the spell is the limit", it's instead "the human is the limit". How far can one delve before they confront the existential horror? Who even survives a confrontation with existential horror? Ego death is never pretty, and it's almost always born from tragedy. Childhood playmates who may have affections for each other torn apart by differences and unrequited love, a spouse in an unhappy relationship who dreams of better prospects away from their overly-manipulative husband, an elderly lamenting being the last left alive among her friends, these are all conditions that can lead one to drawing upon the void for answers. Circumstances where life is too painful to go on, where the blindly-optimistic worldview of "Suicide doesn’t end the chances of life getting worse, it eliminates the possibility of it ever getting any better" and its survivorship bias is exposed, where not even love is something that can be believed, the strangely-coddling prospect of ego death in a world where there's nothing else to believe in. At the very end of the road, at the height of this story which blends Asian horror with Western magic, we don't need monsters to fight; we are monsters ourselves.

How can you maintain this sense of mystery and wonder if you do decide to use a magic system?

@BigToody In general or in Sun Eater?

@@whyonthefall5373 both

What about the older 2d pixel game worlds? Analog games? Board games? The written word? Human imagination? A world you can only play in through the real world would be funny, maybe that would be like an ARG or a sport/children's playground game.