We take a step by step approach to making this time honored recipe. There are many techniques and this is only one of those that we use.
Пікірлер: 341
@tkdrhino8 жыл бұрын
George, I'm definitely glad I found your series. I've learned a ton since I started watching it. Thanks a ton for making them
@NatureMovies4 жыл бұрын
One of George Washington's original stills was seized by ATF agents in a moonshine raid in 1939 from a family descended from Washington's servants, not slaves. It was one of many he had at the Dogue Run grist mill/distillery on the Mt. Vernon property. A meticulous reproduction was done by Vendome Copper in Louisville of the original still made by R. Bush and Co. in Bristol, England. A Scotsman, James Anderson was Washington's master distiller, who got the distillery in full production while Washington was out fighting the revolutionary war and at full capacity operated 5 stills, and produced around 11,000 gallons per year, which easily made him one of the largest distiller on the entire East coast. Washington himself probably would have rarely actually drank any of this whiskey as he preferred imported madeira or even champagne, so it would be a mistake to think Washington was in amongs barrels of whiskey turning the tap. Washinton's exact mash bill is preserved and is more similar to today's rye whiskey with a larger corn adjunct. The whiskey would have never been bottled as all whiskey at the time was sold bulk in barrels.
@wldtrky385 жыл бұрын
I ordered the book Friday morning and it was delivered Sat morning. Fastest delivery EVER from Amazon 👌 2:15 AM and I'm sanitizing equipment trying to decide what recipe to use for my very first mash... So where else would I be but watching and listening to George. Thank You Sir !!
@JohnnyBGood-bl9tx5 жыл бұрын
I want to see the whole process for this! I was hoping for a ‘part two’.
@user-jv8yu7ld7b8 жыл бұрын
you have more answers than I have questions I thoroughly enjoy your instructive videos keep up the good work what a great public service . 5 stars 😄
@Winteryears4 жыл бұрын
I'm addicted to your videos. Great job, both instructive and fun.
@willowdog725 жыл бұрын
I feel like I'm in school watching this man he is the professor of spirits
@psychicpieclub94198 жыл бұрын
Another excellent tutorial. Thanks George for all the work you put into these videos.
@barbarajacobsen90198 ай бұрын
Thank you! I love all the information you so generously give out freely. I made 24 gallons of your sweet potato vodka. It's in the fermenter now, my friends can't wait. Thank you again 💓
@susanstorey61605 жыл бұрын
Man your a great instructor wish my memory was half as good .
@keetonbond79453 жыл бұрын
He is so professional and educational thank you so much for sharing your knowledge sir!
@homevalueglass38095 жыл бұрын
Thank you buddy, this was the PERFECT video for me. Was looking for a whiskey mash video using flaked corn, rye and barley. I love that you used a grain bag for straining off the mash as I really didn't want to mess around with grain in the fermenter or later on, as some others do. I like that you mentioned that you could add 3-4 lbs sugar to boost the abv, as that is my plan, though wasn't sure how much corn sugar to add. Just a great video and reassures me that what I was thinking of doing is an acceptable meathod.
@FoolOfATuque4 жыл бұрын
I use a false bottom in a 10 gallon cooler for my all-grain beer mash. The advantage of the false bottom is before you run your grain into a bucket you can run some out slowly into a big measuring cup and put it back into the cooler. When you pour it back in try s much as possible not to disturb the grain bed. Repeat the step over and over until the wort is clear. This allows you to use the grain bed as a filter when pulling your wort/mash out of the tun.
@philippierce47423 жыл бұрын
I learned this from watching a video done by John Palmer. Setting the grain. Multiple ways to rinse the grains.
@bluestarindustrialarts77127 жыл бұрын
I have the 10 gallon HD cooler for a mash tun as well. Made the following mods: 1. Remove spigot, replace with 1/2" NPT SS ball valve, O-rings on both sides. 2. On the nipple end of the ball valve I installed SS filter. This filter is made from a Stainless water heater hose. Cut the ends off, pull out the silicone rubber core. Use a SS hose clamp to clamp the sleeve to the pipe end in the cooler. Pinch the other end closed and tightly twist SS wire around it to keep it closed. The result lets liquid flow out but not any grain or particles.
@Rammsteinschmidt3 жыл бұрын
George you are a wise man 👍😤thank you sir for sharing your wisdom. The Washington looks like it turns out amazing
@johncadogan81508 жыл бұрын
Hey George thanks for answering all my questions on the phone earlier! Can't wait to try all your mash recipes and enjoy sipping on some whiskey! Keep up the good work and can't wait for more videos
@BarleyandHopsBrewing8 жыл бұрын
+John Cadogan Thanks John. We are trying to keep up with demand for quality videos and customer service. George
@Alphatechguru5 жыл бұрын
Love hanging with you, George! Itz always quite a treat to get a lil side angles and kibbitz on the videos you produce! In this Unprecedented age we live in, the grassroots speak louder than the mediums of bygone eras! 😎💜
@chuckdontknowdoya61004 жыл бұрын
Just finished mashing in a twenty gallon batch George thanks for helping me reproduce history brother the only thing I did different is I prefer to ferment on the grain. I'll let you know how it goes.
@cmbrouns4 жыл бұрын
How did it go?
@chuckdontknowdoya61004 жыл бұрын
@@cmbrouns went great I ran in pot mode really slow came off at 140 proof and it's aging in three oak barrels for the next few months.
@dukebrees70025 жыл бұрын
Another great video, George...you da man!
@raymondp78498 жыл бұрын
Great video, full of info, thanks for doing it.
@haulshine40937 жыл бұрын
I am so glad that these wonderful vids are back..
@Myproitsolution20076 жыл бұрын
Drinking the Budweiser freedom reserve right now. I'll be making your/George's recipe on my next brew.
@deankundrata2300 Жыл бұрын
Great recipe thank you for your great video's
@danielcooper1756 жыл бұрын
Love your videos buddy thanks for sharing
@jamesmilkavich41398 жыл бұрын
Great video as always! Thanks for making it!
@thastinger3458 жыл бұрын
Just some FYI for anyone wanted to try this recipe. This expands out to be way more grain in the cook pot than you're probably used to, I have a 21.5 Qt cooking pot and could barely get it all in there. I didn't use a sparging bag as I had always fermented on the grain before. If you're going to do this OTG, the grain all ends up at the top and tries to block your airlock while the fermentation is in progress, when its all finished the "cap" will fall. OTG there is really no way to check your SG until the cap falls down.
@BarleyandHopsBrewing8 жыл бұрын
+thastinger345 Good advice... This is why I used a 10 gallon cooler; I knew I needed the extra room for the grain. I'll do a better job in the future of mentioning this. I normally don't ferment OTG so this was not an issue for me. Glad to hear you did overcome the challenges. George
@thastinger3458 жыл бұрын
It was my fault George, there is no way you can explain every potential hitch in your videos. I appreciate you posting the vids and was just passing along my "lessons learned" to anyone that might be able to use them. I now know that I need a larger mash tone if I want to do this again.
@BarleyandHopsBrewing8 жыл бұрын
+thastinger345 I truly appreciate the comment and it is helpful for others. This is what makes us a growing and strong community; we share information. Don't hesitate to comment and offer any lessons learned. I welcome and appreciate them. George
@bobbyorganicsthetattooedga36817 жыл бұрын
can u help with proportions im really confused
@ericwildrick5749 Жыл бұрын
Thanks George! Can’t wait to get that George Washington Rye in the fermentor!
@groundpounder83737 жыл бұрын
Thank you George. Im buying the book that has that recipe in it. I cant wait to try it.
@peterscandlyn8 жыл бұрын
Gee George, here was me thinking of getting a 'Grainfather' for mashing all grain beers (handy for stilling too) but now you got me reconsidering....
@cabji4 жыл бұрын
"we still got some steam comin off of it" 🤣🤣🤣
@johncadogan81508 жыл бұрын
How did this come out for you? can't wait to try this recipe! idk how high of a potential abv you'd produce from this recipe? I don't want to have to double distill it to get a higher proof cause I don't want to take any of the flavor from it. may try it and see what I get then if I want it stronger I may just add more grain to next mash. what's your thoughts on this?
@willardwatson92916 жыл бұрын
I don,t know anyone that can fill your shoes
@BarleyandHopsBrewing6 жыл бұрын
Willard, thanks a bunch but this is a team effort. Ray and I work hard at getting it right and we rely on our community to make it better. Appreciate the comment. Happy distilling. George
@jjleda73244 ай бұрын
Thanks for all your videos. They've been a great help. When it comes to the gypsum powder and the acid blend, wouldn't they kinda cancel each other out? Similar to vinegar and backing soda when mixed you end up with a neutral solution with a little bit of salt.
@sjporr5 жыл бұрын
Very informative video. Cheers
@sjp76014 жыл бұрын
I would love this recipe if still available
@philiptruitt6 күн бұрын
Thanks George!
@stevendouglas26038 жыл бұрын
the season is coming up soon here in n.c. so i'm gonna try this one. oh, and i ordered the book you talked about. keep up the good advice.
@jmboulware2 жыл бұрын
Drives me nuts the way George refers the the barley as "the grain" when literally everything he's putting in the bag is grain.
@MrGattor338 жыл бұрын
Outstanding video George, you've outdone yourself with this video! ! I am definitely going to have to do this one. Could you possibly shoot me that recipe?
@BarleyandHopsBrewing8 жыл бұрын
+MrGattor33 I need your email address to send that to you. Mine is george.duncan76@gmail.com
@garybrown69673 жыл бұрын
Gday George Gary Brown Prairie AUSTRALIA your shows are marvelous I can't get enough of them can you please send me the George Washington recipe, I can't wait to make it I've just finished a still and a ss fermenter so I'm ready to go Hey George that plastic barrel you used for a fermenter have you thought about 1 or 2 electric frying pans use plastersine tobuild the sides up against the bottom of the barrel tape the pan up tightly to make a good fit then pour some plaster or cement in the Pan let it set and strap it on tightly to your barrel and now you can use the controlled thermostat on the frying pan to meep your temperature constant. Thanks for the help mate ,regards Gary Brown Prairie AUSTRALIA.
@joebaker98613 жыл бұрын
@George Duncan I agree with you. I've watched hundreds of hours of your videos. Sure, for someone that just wants a quick "Here's what to do" video, your level of teaching is probably a bit drawn out for them. Me, on the other hand, I like to learn every single detail. I read the comments as well. There is much to be learned in the comments. As a community, we learn from each other. From our successes, our failures and everything in between. Thank you for taking the time to make these videos. Obviously, you earn a living doing what you do. But the volume of responses from you, is quite impressive. That shows just how much you care about what you're doing and the entire community involved. I copied and pasted my comment from from another person's rather disrespectful reply. Just in case they decide to delete it, 5 years later. lol Keep up the amazing work, George. I'm a beer brewer, at the moment. However, in the near future, I'm going to eventually give some of these videos a try.
@rogerwilco593 жыл бұрын
Now George you didn't finish what ya started! It would be nice to see you re-do this mash from start to finish product. Maybe do a taste test with your buddies Bearded and Jessy.
@shelbysellers13974 жыл бұрын
From what I've studied, GW's rye was NOT aged in charred oak barrels but rather shipped in UNcharred barrels and drank clear. George, what is your opinion sir?
@stuh46458 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the recommendation on the book, its a really great read!
@pitol6784 жыл бұрын
George, Im not a distiller, yet, but I'll bet a sous vide machine would work great with this technique. It would bring the water up to an exact temperature with no monitoring, then the cooler would help hold it at the given temp. If youre not familiar with sous vide, I'll link a video. Like I said, I haven't distilled anything yet but I do have two ferments in progress and am just thinking of future techniques to try. Thanks for all you do! Sous vide link: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hNZgf7Co1tqzhoE.html
@Dustinielson2 жыл бұрын
Thanks Mate. I had just ground up some chocolate rye and wanted to know the rest of the method for extraction, I don't have the same equipment but got it pretty close to that method. I dare say I will cheat and put in a kilo of dextrose to bump up the ABV. (And for anyone wondering 155'f = 68'c)
@mshipe676 жыл бұрын
Love your videos Barley and Hops George
@mindaugasvaskevicius18185 жыл бұрын
Whiskey... In Lithuania we have Starka. It is made from Rey or potato moonshine(traditionally 50-60%, commercially 40%) aged in oak barrels. So difference from whiskey is the same like scotch? Well whiskey has corn in it, but I mean, that's it?
@jmichel704 жыл бұрын
Great videos. Thanks,
@jacobhargiss3839 Жыл бұрын
I really wished I thought of using one of those drink buckets, I ended up basically building my own.
@mattcero13 жыл бұрын
Adding the gypsum and acid blend at the same point in time confuses me. George, would you clarify and let ensure if the acid blend should be added to the fermentation bucket to assist the yeast? Thanks George.
@shashashashadowbannedbud43713 жыл бұрын
No idea my dood. If you have a local brewer shop, you could always callem up 💪
@timeye76842 жыл бұрын
Wanting to get into making a little for myself just for a new hobby! Wish me luck!!
@gmannon6 ай бұрын
Hi George, it seems that 1/2 of malted barley won’t have the conversion power to convert other 9.5 pounds of grain. It’s only 5 Perecent of the total grain bill. Should there be more malted barley? Thanks
@ryanweeden29042 жыл бұрын
1st time comment - I have just made this for the 1st time and I’m about to run it through my pot still. My question is what style of oak do u normally use once you have your finished product?
@ShadHall8 жыл бұрын
George, great teaching! I had no idea it was this simple; not much different than brewing beer. I have a friend wanting to make some whiskey, so I'm forwarding this video on to him now. Hey, if I were to use a grain bag in my brewing process, as you have here, along with cooler/chest, would that provide the same results as a rectangular beer chest with copper piping in the bottom of it? If so, why not always use the approach of the bag!? Thanks!
@BarleyandHopsBrewing8 жыл бұрын
+Shad Hall Good to hear from an old friend. Yes the bag would do the same. I use several techniques in the store so people can see that there are alternatives. George
@neilthompson28712 жыл бұрын
I’ve been watching this for some time your channel. But we’re the second update? Doe we always have to add all theses extra things u do or can we still make it the way they did for the general?
@marcelpacheco78782 жыл бұрын
Thanks George.
@davidmorris65392 жыл бұрын
Giday George. a nuther great video. thanks again. George may also ask what is that is the name of that moonshiners song that is playing in the back ground. I would love to no what the song /music name is please. All so I would like to no What the name of the Book was that you got the George Woshtion mash recipe from. Thank you so much
@cowpiecowboy75995 жыл бұрын
I tried a thrown together recipe I dreamed up and I only produced a 1.036 without sugar added on a 10 gallon. 12 lbs cracked corn 4 lbs rye 2 pounds 6 row. After adding 2 lbs brown sugar 7 lbs table sugar and 8 lbs corn sygar I only got up to a 1.076. Mash ymtun worked pretty good but next time I think I'll turn the corn to porridge in my pre heat water. Probably clog up the false bottom tho. Hopefully the learning process tastes good lol
@BarleyandHopsBrewing5 жыл бұрын
You are on the path to greatness. For 10 gallons you can see it does take quite a bit of ingredients to get to 1.090 or so. Keep at it. George
@cowpiecowboy75995 жыл бұрын
@@BarleyandHopsBrewing not too shabby 110 proof running the first 4 gallons then 120 on the next 4 with tails thrown in. Got a total of one gallon and one pint after cutting to 80 proof. Final ABV gave me 12% there was two gallons of wash I froze cause I ran out of ice. No aging or oak chip soak yet and it tastes like Jameson with that sweet finish.. couldn't have done it without you. You Da man!
@BarleyandHopsBrewing5 жыл бұрын
@@cowpiecowboy7599 Awesome results. Keep at it. It only gets better. George
@georgemadis54817 жыл бұрын
George, do you have a home brew shop? If so where are you at? I haven't started distilling, too nervous about doing it until the laws change, if they ever do! But I would love to start brewing my own beer and wine,Im not a wine drinker but home brewing is so interesting that I want to try! Love your videos, thank you very much for taking the time to share your vast knowledge!
@pilsplease75616 жыл бұрын
Beer is a great start
@redesigns12192 жыл бұрын
hi George, I would be thank full for a copy of that recipe . thanks
@brucekrisko43644 жыл бұрын
Hi George, you're doing a great job educating us newbie's in the art. I'm trying to put together an all grain mash recipe for vodka, and I want to use wheat grain with malted wheat. How much of each should I use for a 6 gallon mash to get an ABV of 10%?
@Texaviator5 жыл бұрын
Hey George, could you guys do a video on sour mash whiskies? I recently toured the Jack Daniel Distillery and was told "sour mash" was what most are using these days.
@BarleyandHopsBrewing5 жыл бұрын
We may dive into that later on sometime.
@miltonezell58443 жыл бұрын
Would love a copy of the recipe. Thank you.
@chucknewman49273 жыл бұрын
George, love your videos! Could you please advise as to the size of your Home Depot cooler and do you have a false bottom in it. I am new to distilling and have a lot to learn. Thanks for for any advice on this. Chuck Angola, IN
@rushbayou52302 жыл бұрын
12;45 acids? is that why ppl add lemon to there batch?
@chefprov3 жыл бұрын
I’m new to this,,, do you have to boil the mash ? Or is it not as sensitive to wild yeast as beer is ? Or does it not matter because you are distilling it ? Sorry if this is a stupid question 🥴
@apopnj5 жыл бұрын
i brew beer same method Brew in a bag (BIAB) if you double crush the grains or crush at its lowest setting u get better efficiency -
@caintfindme47355 жыл бұрын
Is all the ingredients you have mentioned such as the iodine,in the book you said was worth buying?
@broker3256 Жыл бұрын
I am trying this but my S.G. is only 1.045, seems to low should I add some simple syrup?
@neilthompson28712 жыл бұрын
How are u venting the mash? Lid slightly open or u using a blow off?
@mergcontracts86145 ай бұрын
Is there any whiskey that can be made without enzymes?
@kennethmay56244 жыл бұрын
GREAT VIDEO! Would love to see you use the Turbo500 for this!
@climbingshitmountain5 жыл бұрын
Hello. I'm not understanding adding gypsum to make the water harder (alkaline) and then adding acid blend (which would make the water softer)?
@ciggityliggity70395 жыл бұрын
I have a bunch of peaches my mom canned I am gonna try brandy from my still I made haha here we go
@angrypastabrewing3 жыл бұрын
How did it came out?
@sam2223083 жыл бұрын
George, if I am using a Turbo-500 will I get any flavor or will it all strip out? Thanks
@abrahan65 жыл бұрын
Would love the recipe thanks 😊
@michaelnorwood58886 жыл бұрын
What was your starting gravity on this Mash? And do you think it would change the flavor a lot if I use just enzymes instead of the grain?
@campingcahoons Жыл бұрын
How can I get the recipe. Never made shine and would like to try with grains not a sugar wash.
@peregrinozion3397 Жыл бұрын
Would it be possible to get the recepi ? would love to try making it
@updatename66372 жыл бұрын
Great professional video….. only Homedepot cooler can see :)))))
@hoglundh5 жыл бұрын
2 Georges involved, what can go wrong!
@chuckdontknowdoya61004 жыл бұрын
Going on my list to try. Have you fermented on the grain George? Reason that I ask is because that's the way I learned maybe a good idea for a video start to finish a batch each way to see what way works the best.
@daveclawson79904 жыл бұрын
kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fah6odyl3rCVXWQ.html
@daveclawson79904 жыл бұрын
6:50 in this video he will tell u why he ferments off grain kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fah6odyl3rCVXWQ.html
@chuckdontknowdoya61004 жыл бұрын
I'm subscribed and watch all of George's videos
@Heather220565 жыл бұрын
Good video Thanks!
@JB-cq2wo4 жыл бұрын
I'm gonna get that book asap
@jimdent3517 жыл бұрын
What kind of ABV did you get from this mash (before distillation) without the addition of sugar? Thanks.
@gregallennorris1955 жыл бұрын
Hey George! First off man thanks so much for doing a great job on ALL of your videos. Its been a great resource as we are getting started in the distilling process. My question is: My friends and I have done a few test runs using a corn only mash to get our still tuned and to better understand its functionallity. (55 Gal 6" 6 tiered Reflux Still...its a beauty) The problem is we are having a rough time converting the corn. An example of this is we used 20 Gal of water and 40lbs of milled corn with 4 teaspoons of alpha amylase and gypsum heated with propane burners in a 30 gal mash tun at 165/170 degrees F. We did this for 7 HOURS! Added a gallon or two in the sparge of the grain...And still when doing an iodine test it came back still black and not dissolving into the test liquid from the mash as you have done in several of your videos. Basic question is what are we doing wrong sir?
@BarleyandHopsBrewing5 жыл бұрын
Amylase is sensitive. If you are at or near 170 you can inoculate it and thus make it non-responsive. Be careful of this. Temperature is critical when using amylase. Your target (perfect) temp is 155F with no additional heat added to it. George
@gregallennorris1955 жыл бұрын
Barley and Hops Brewing thanks so much for taking the time to answer my question. Keep up the great work! Thanks, George! Greg
@brokenspokesmtber8 жыл бұрын
George you are a godsend helping out us beginners. Would love to come by the shop and meet with you and 'shoot the shit'
@2seeingisbelieving8 жыл бұрын
Hi George, Maybe I missed it, but was that a total of 5 1/2 Gallons of water that you used for your mash? 1 1/2 in the Cooler and you added another 4 Gallons from the pot. My goal is to end up with 5 gallons of fermented mash for my still, how much water and grain should I start with?
@MartinGallacher7 жыл бұрын
Hi Jim, you need to allow for grain absorption, about 1 pint per pound. Check brewers friend for rates. Sparging the post mash grains recovers residual sugars and tops up the water lost.
@morelcultivation93396 жыл бұрын
the last you put in was that unmilled grain? or what kind of grain can i use instead of Alpha Amylase
@robertromney17776 жыл бұрын
Love all the barleyhops vids,question about using malted rye instead of flaked rye or straight rye. Will malted rye work and give the same flavor with the corn with out using the barley or do I need the barley for flavor too?Reason I ask is i can only buy malted rye here(Costa Rica) .
@BarleyandHopsBrewing6 жыл бұрын
The malted barley is there to convert the flaked rye and corn into fermentable sugars. If you are using malted rye you don't need the barley at all. The malted barley will convert itself and the corn. George
@anniebeauchamp46474 жыл бұрын
Hello george!! I dont have rye were i live what can i youse instead??
@wonderwond6 жыл бұрын
is it possible to make something out of corn starch you buy in a box from the store?
@krispycrittersonthegrill36114 жыл бұрын
Hey George can you keep the grain in the bag a place into the fermenting unit to extra more sugar and flavor from the mash. Thanks in advance
@BarleyandHopsBrewing4 жыл бұрын
Your certainly could. No added flavor comes from the spent grains.
@1SGCurt5 жыл бұрын
what was the starting specific gravity for this mash? Would 1.042 be too low for a mash such as this?
@tomkehl96325 жыл бұрын
If I use my well water, what hardness should I be looking at or for?
@2seeingisbelieving8 жыл бұрын
George, I would love to see how you separate the grain from the wash. I seem to loose a lot of liquid in the mash bag. Any tips?
@TheFeralBachelor7 жыл бұрын
That's one of my issues too when using a bag.
@MartinGallacher7 жыл бұрын
Get yourself a colander which fits over the tun, lift the bag up and set it on to the colander to drip. You can sparge the grains with a couple of litres 170 deg water to rinse remaining sugars out and give it a 'gentle' press / squeeze. Leave it there until dripping stops.
@jawsparkyfourfive5 жыл бұрын
George, great videos as always. I've learned a lot from you guys. The burning question though.....who is that on your bumper music?
@djpeer54 жыл бұрын
Kentucky Moonshine by George Tucker
@ltroe19808 жыл бұрын
Excellent video George, in your opinion would malted wheat have a favorable outcome?
@BarleyandHopsBrewing8 жыл бұрын
+Lysle Roe Actually malted wheat would work on its own since it has been malted. Diastatic power is listed as degrees lintner. Base grains like 2 row is 140 so there are plenty of enzymes to work for you since 30 is all that is needed to convert itself. Malted white wheat is 160 and the red wheat is 180. This means that you can steep these at the right temperature and convert the starches to sugars alone or add flaked products with it and convert that as well. Any flaked or rolled grain will require a little help so to answer your base question; absolutely..... George
@ltroe19808 жыл бұрын
+Barley and Hops thanks for the imput, really like your channel by the way
@ToolsOutsideTheBox5 жыл бұрын
Or...... just let it cool down, pitch your yeast and put the lid back on. Come back in about 4 days, pull your sack out and get to distilling
@hogue36664 жыл бұрын
Have you actually tried this? I did a mash ferment once with a Berliner weisse -style beer with terrible results. Maybe it's different with spirits.