Don’t worry, I play fighting games and she triggers flight or flight.

That is the proper reaction to Jack-O ever. Good job.

What is the unreal fighting games you play

Smash Bros, probably

@@tdimensional6733 I also play smash bro’s, but also real games

Wouldn't call him a zoner tbh. He fits into multiple archetypes actually. Its up to the player to find what they find engaging and use that to play. Whether that be a zoner with complex setups to control the screen, a rushsown character who covers himself with flexible projectiles or of course an oki based character deadset on destroying your will to live with oki setups. And he can change fluidly from these. This is why gg is nice, it allows the player to do what THEY want with the character.

Street fighter got one of those now in the form of JP

He's really more of a midrange-rushdown with screen control

Happy chaos

If they couldn't super dash through it it would be good but it would also be pretty broken so sadly no :(

@@swaglish1415 How would it be broken?

@@destroyerofworlds4663 the orbs around the screen could be used to block any form of super dash meaning it would be hard to escape from his string and approach him

@@swaglish1415 Beams and vanish would like to have a word with you

@@destroyerofworlds4663 Beerus' DP punishes beams at range & vanish doesn't work when it gets 2h'd on reaction. Truth is, beerus's orbs are incredible Oki & pressure tools & are great for baiting SD or harassing your opponent in neutral when they start to respect you too much. Their only problem is players seeing a move and assuming it'll be powerful in a way it isn't.

While there are a few options that fit the stuff you talk about, like Tenshi's keystones that function as walls and platforms, or Youmu's reflector, or Alice's everything, I do agree that they're restricted to very few options. The lack of attack extenders or movement options is especially unfortunate. AoCF doesn't do too much better in any of these regards.

The funny thing is that the first Touhou fighter, IaMP, had a lot of unique bullet types that gave the player lots of options in their use. (Such as: -Marisa's exploding "puffballs" which let you set up crossups or delete and punish someone's poor zoning attempts from full screen. -Sakuya's bouncing/delayed knives which let you keep pressure up close with good timing or maintain cyclic but constant screen control from anywhere else. - Youmu's C projectile which let you force pressure in neutral by performing a physical sword poke that was immediately followed up by a delayed stream of projectiles. or -Alice's j.2C Which causes her to place a turret and bounce backwards, leaving her airborne with her full movement options intact. ) However, as the series goes on, they remove more and more of the, "set up" and "indirect" based projectiles, favoring "direct use/fire and forget" style bullets. Leading to the current AoCF where outside of a few standouts (sumireko), bullets exist either to be hadokens with almost no hitstun or low damage knockdowns that reset neutral. Ironically, making rushdown the only useful means of attack in a series about bullet hell.

@@tycoonstorm You are out of your mind if you think AoCF is all about rushdown. Arguably enough the current "meta" is just keepaway Reimu or walling people out with Kasen.

@@fluury There's a difference between someone failing to get in and someone getting zoned out. If someone repeatedly runs into Jin Kisaragi's projectiles while he runs away from them then they are "failing to get in." But if someone is slowly being pushed to the corner by Nu-13 only to end up trapped with no idea how to escape or avoid chip, they are "getting zoned out." The problem is, you can't do the latter in AoCF. If the opponent opts to run away from your zoning, you can't keep them pinned long enough to prevent them from escape. Bullets are too direct and there's too many possible holes of escape that you can't cover. This is because AoCF's long range options all result in minor hitstun (can only be capitalized/converted from if the attacker is already midrange or closer), short term knockdown (the consequence for eating a large bullet is getting to airtech and invincibly wake up in the direction of your choice?!?) and most importantly low damage (not factoring in guts or regen, the large bullet does enough damage to KO the opponent if they eat 9-10 of said bullets raw. With the same specs, it takes 4-5 combos with ground and wallbounce to achieve KO in comparison.) The main thing you have to fear from eating projectiles in neutral, is not getting to run your offense. Not the damage or effect of the projectiles themselves. Instead, the only danger you have to fear in neutral is getting your movement caught by one of your opponent’s many pokes. As those pokes are the only thing that allow a player to dish out the damage and control necessary to establish them as a threat. This is also why, Sumireko is seen as the dedicated zoning character, because she has a bullet that allows her to convert into considerable damage from full screen. A trait that almost all the other characters do not have. (Incentivizing them be in your face instead.) Lastly, your mention of the current meta involving keepaway or walling, both require that at least one of the two people playing is trying to get in. You can't play keepaway/wall someone out if the other person isn't actively trying to get you. Instead, it just turns into a zoning battle. A situation that is not supported by AoCF's game design. For example, have you ever tried having a dedicated long range battle in AoCF. Its terribly unfun. There's no difficulty in avoiding bullets (you just graze forward at bare minimum) or ability to set up complex walls of attacks (almost no bullets stall, so you can't establish layers that force your opponent into awkward grazing patterns.) Unlike, the older games, (mostly IaMP, due to the extremely limited/specific grazing options) The nuance of establishing screen control by canceling your opponent's bullets to force their movement or overriding your opponent's bullet pattern with your own isn’t there. Instead the bullet aspect is an afterthought, there to encourage aggression up close rather than giving the option to dominate from afar. However, in the long (and arguably unnecessary) process of writing this, I've thought about things some more, and I will take back my comment that implied the game was about mindless rushdown. Instead, I feel that AoCF at its core is about using bullets to scare your opponent into moving forward so that you can then convert your mid-range pokes into damage, and begin opening your opponent up with pressure strings. But, it's not about zoning. And it's certainly not about creative application of projectiles. (Except for Doremy's vacuum attack. The ability to vacuum in projectiles on block or hit is one of the most creative things I've seen in a while.)

@@tycoonstorm well that was quite a wall of text I'm not doubting your position that most projectiles are pretty lame (although I'd argue there are more neat ones than you think, don't even know if Mami's pokeballs count as projectiles). But reading AoCF being about rushdown just made me wince - these ain't the early ULiL days bud. Your new stance is much more agreeable.

Hahahahahahahaha How The Fuck Is Super Dash Real Hahahaha Nigga Just Walk Backwards From The Opponent Like Nigga 2H That Shit Haha

Actually in the current patch of DBFZ (Season 3.5), Beerus is pretty solid.

Ah yes, a bad character, that's why like 3 of the best players in the game play him this patch

@@thewarriorofboros This comment was made a month ago bro things can change

@@thewarriorofboros Release Beerus was arguably the worst character in the game next to Nappa. He had a 7f 5L with pathetic range, his 2M was jumpable on reaction into full whiff punish and even at point blank range had like 14f start up, he couldn’t get a sliding knockdown mid screen without meter and his assist didn’t lead to DR like it does right now. I believe his 2H also had a smaller hit box, but I don’t remember for sure, but either way it’s an unreliable anti air compared to most because him stepping back often causes the opponent to land and the hit box to whiff which... again leads to full punish. He had a few minor strengths; orb kick/summon has always been plus on block (but you could always reflect out the blockstun), 5H is an excellent disjoint, j2H is an excellent move period, his level 1 is top tier (but lol Beerus and Tien were hit by far the hardest by the multi super nerfs because they had the most ubiquitous supers for multi super setups), he has a low 2L and a meter less DP (not a very good one because the hitbox comes out obscenely late... and is a ki blast... and it’s badly positioned so often whiffs... but it’s better than not having one which is most characters I guess).

YES OMG HE EVENS KNOWS THAT HERITAGE IS A THING!WTF!!!!

Slow bullet is the sickest unblockable super I've seen thus far

Hol Horse is the first thing I thought of lmao.

Fuck gun

@@kopv1827 hell yeah!!! finally someone that understand me

facts

Honestly mate. Keep up the content creation 👌 You're funny as hell. Pretty solid editing as well.

How about now? 77K. Certainly well deserved. I hope that sub count keeps going up. Leon's fucking ace.

@@TheGeneReyva *99k

Ki cinder aswell.

Yeah, when I heard the end, I immediately wanted to comment about platform fighters in general. Because you get more space and movement options, these games also tend to give you a lot of weird projectiles and tools to play around with. Smash has an entire character archetype based around it that doesn't really appear in any other game. *Item characters* : R.O.B, Diddy, PAC-MAN, Mega Man, Snake, the Links, Wario, Peach, Banjo, technically Sheik, Villager and Brawl ZSS and probably more I forgot. They can all summon items on command which have different properties but work just like the ones that normally appear in casual rulesets, making them very interesting to interact with. You can interact with them like any projectile through reflects and other stuff, but you can also hold them in your hand, toss them in four directions and two speeds from the ground or the air, drop them gently for a slower descent and no lag, pick them back up with an attack or normally, you can use windboxes to mess with them (for at least some of them, damage is calculated based on their current velocity so in the right situation, you can let your item be pushed at lightning speed for >60% and that's some sHIT), you can cancel a jump or roll with a toss to slide on the ground for various flavours of bullshit (except in Ult, still don't know why they took it out) and most importantly, because it's Smash, your opponent can also pick them up and use them like you would, which, holy fuck, leads to so much interaction. It gets even more interesting when you combine all these with the properties of your character's item(s). I play R.O.B. I *love* R.O.B. He has a gyro, which in this case is not a Greek kebab-like dish but a spinning top that can do some funky shit. R.O.B summons the gyro by shooting it with his dspe, and he can charge it for extra distance and speed (and thus damage). Just the dspe is already pretty fun to play around with, because you can cancel it with jump or shield which stores the charge. Using that, you can cancel it into any out-of-shield/aerial option and bait out defensive options and jump-ins, turnaround/B-reverse/wavebounce to change direction/momentum in the air, keep them guessing on how you'll recover offstage, or even charge it halfway and keep it stored until they forget before reminding them with a Mach 3 projectile coming at them while they're struggling to recover because you're already peppering them with lasers. The gyro itself deals good damage and is affected by gravity; it will bounce towards you if it hits an enemy making it easier to catch and immediately disappear if it hits a shield allowing R.O.B to charge and shoot another one immediately. It can also bounce off walls, including the side of the ledge, on which it can go in various trajectories depending on the angle of the surface for some fun edgeguards. However, the gyro completely changes properties once it hits the ground after being shot from dspe. It will start spinning, moving slowly across the ground with a constant weak hitbox which knocks away from the gyro's center, will not get people off the ground until extremely high% and can even cause tripping. When this little wonder's out, any space between it and R.O.B becomes very hard to contest, because getting hit there will always lead to huge damage. He can send you into the gyro with d/ftilt and spam dtilt to make you keep getting hit by it (this is affectionately dubbed the "Gyrozone" and it looks a lot like Haehyun's combos) ; he can grab you and start his insane B'n'Bs or bury mixups for a kill, he can use nair which is a giant disjointed combo starter and start more combos... Trying to get past the gyro in the first place already forces you to take some committal options because you can't just run towards R.O.B and you can't run-up shield to deal with it as it will not disappear on shield in this state. However, if you're good enough, you can time a normal to pick it up safely and not only get past it, but keep R.O.B from shooting another and use it for your own deeds... and if the R.O.B player knows how you're going to pick it up, they can act on that too. It's when both players are capable of that that the _real fun begins_. The best part is that the gyro changes properties a third time after it's picked up and tossed again. This time, it will always act like the first state, but instead of spinning when it hits the ground, it will bounce a bit, linger in place for a few frames and then disappear. When the gyro is in state 1 or 3, it will always, no matter what, knock the victim in the direction its owner was facing when they tossed it. This applies even if you threw it up or down or you simply soft-dropped it, and even if you're already in front of the gyro and facing the opposite direction. I love that property, because not only does it give R.O.B crazy combos and setups, anyone who picks up the gyro can also use it to pull similar things and anyone who knows their character and how that property works will be able to figure something out on the fly and get a combo, maybe even a kill setup, if they manage to land the gyro hit and follow up on the victim's knockback and DI. It's fucking sick. This is only some of the things R.O.B can do with his item and some characters like PAC-MAN can have even more. Item play is one of the more fascinating aspects of Smash and it's one of the things I've always wished other games were able to reproduce somewhat faithfully.

^ I ended up writing a wall of text about just R.O.B (it's more common than you'd think), but to talk about Rivals too, the Workshop has a ton of characters with interesting projectile manipulation. In fact, most community-curated characters do because they often follow Rivals' design rule of giving everyone a spatial resource. The coolest one I can think of would be Otto, who can be described as "what if Venom and Wario had a threesome with a bee and their weird three-parented child had a rebellious phase". He's got a billiard ball he can charge from 1 to 8, which changes the angle and the kill power (also lv.8 has stun) and he can hit it to bounce it around and stuff. He also has a bike which enhances his movement when he's on it and can be hit into your opponent when he's not. The way each part of his kit interacts with the rest is really fun.

@@Denter86 woag

​@@Denter86 lol yeah I'm actually one of the main TOs for the workshop scene *and* I used to play a ton of item characters in Smash. I tried playing ROB, Robin and Bowser Jr. early on in Smash 4, during the 3DS days, then gave up on them, then played Toon Link for a while before dropping him as well, and then played Daisy in Ultimate for about a month and a half after I switched to playing on Smashbox but then I dropped her once the Terry DLC came out.

Come to think of it all characters in rivals have a way to control space from Zetter’s fire puddle, SK’s mobile gear and Etalus’ ice

Didn't he die though.

@@leedlebob2667 well, he was picked up by Robo Ky's head in the epilog, so it still has the possibility

@@cspcchcody we can only hope

Becuz of gg strive system.. Venom decided to become chef

@@leedlebob2667 hes now runs a bakery bc yes

Comedy genius

Funny alert

Same kinda. Street Fighter 5 is so much simpler. I'll tell you that Guilty Gear XX Acent Core just got updated with really good online, and its a really good game, and is also simpler than Xrd. (No roman cancels)

@@Blues0824 +R has fewer roman cancels but it still has some. It's got Red Roman Cancel which works like it does in Xrd and it has Force Roman Cancel (FRC) which is basically a YRC that you can only cancel in 2 or 3 specific frames as opposed to any point in a moves startup or in neutral, it's much harder but just as important as YRC

I don't think that's what he wanted at all!

Ok. Bye bye rock daddy

@Martin Toledo Robo Ky was in Xrd story mode but never came back

HEY HEY HEY! (Her mechanic changed lol so don't worry about fighting a LoL nexus)

She looks a lot different now

oh dear

I always forget about meat since I don't play SFV ._.

Manet how the fuck did it auto correct to meat?

@@LeonMassey Haha thats what i originally typed then Googled to make sure cause i always type it wrong xD

Also Abigail with the tire

Skullgirls too. Parasoul can set up projectiles without active hitboxes that she can detonate at any time

Technically, there's also Zelda's Din's Fire in Smash

Justice in GGAC also has a similar projectile that you have to negative edge but can manual detonate by just letting go of the button. The only difference being that while they pass through other projectiles they explode on contact with the other player.

Yeah but what if that character was in a game that was fun

What is your game and where do I buy it!

@@goon5665 Slayers For Hire! It's in Early Access on Steam :) Only three characters at the moment, but we've got rollback babyyy. Matchmaking is sparse so you probably ought to check out the discord if you're looking for matches.

@@Winnarly epic. Idea for you, a character that is able to dash cancel aireals. Example would be giving him a side b that dashes him forward then giving him a small meter. As soon as the meter fills up you can use that side b to cancel the endlag of an attack to combo into another

@@Winnarly Yo, didn't expect to see a Slayers dev here! The game is sick, thank you so much for making it into such a fun time!

@@blazefactor6849

😭 This is the best thing I've ever read. The mountain you are climbing is very steep, but I believe you can get to the top.

@@LeonMassey Thank you so much!!!!! You're my favorite content creator rn and I know you'll soon be the next core A. That truly means a lot to me.

@@URAYULI how'd your journey into guilty gear go

hey twak fancy seeing ya here

@@lua-in2sl fellow projectile manipulation enjoyer

That 6P can be the stuff of nightmares. An anti air that also has great horizontal distance just makes him scary. 6P and 2D are just so good for Venom

Well her buttons aren't that great and she's very dependant on the level of the houses. Even if she has all houses out if they're still just Level 1s it makes them easy to ignore then you can just bully her. Level 2 and Level 3 means she can finally play lol. But if she gets hit her minions go away unlike venom who can teleport out of pressure if his ball didn't timeout. Not to mention how losing a house can set you back a long ways unlike Venom who's setup is fast.

also Cinder in KI with his bombs

And now Johnny’s cards in Strive

the repeat super doesn't bring back orbs iirc, it's only the beams

Psst Bridget from GG +R is a better setplay projectile character

WAIT BUT STRIVE DOESNT HAVE VENO-

omg r/kappa I haven't visited that sub in YEEEEEEEEEEEEEARS lol, ty

We all grow out of our rkappa phase eventually.

There’s a Rivals of Aether Workshop character called Monarch that has portals. Don’t let the “edgy-cool middle schooler OC” vibes throw you off, it’s incredibly well-made and fun to play.

She will be btw