The Problem(s) With Zoners in Super Smash Bros.

Рет қаралды 419,444

3 жыл бұрын

Zoners are probably the most divisive archetype in...well, really any game that has them. Super Smash Bros. Ultimate features quite a lot of the archetype, and today, we take a look at their designs. More specifically, we look at some of the decisions that led Ultimate's zoners to be even more frustrating than was strictly necessary, including comparisons to other platform fighters like Rivals of Aether, Slap City, and Rushdown Revolt, as well as traditional fighting games like Street Fighter V and Guilty Gear Strive.
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Second channel: / mockrocktalk
Twitter: / mrmockrock
Patreon: / mockrock
Twitch: / mockrocktwitch
Business email: MockRock@inf1uence.com
Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock
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This video features the upcoming video game Rushdown Revolt. Vortex Games, the creators of this title, recently approached me to do contracted consulting work for their team. This video is NOT sponsored, and the script was written and recorded before any discussions were had. While I am choosing to disclose the relationship for the sake of transparency, it did not influence the creation of this video, nor any previous videos on the channel that featured either Rushdown Revolt or its precursor Icons: Combat Arena. Any future videos that feature Rushdown Revolt will include an appropriate disclaimer that outlines the specifics of their influence on the project, or lack thereof.
Note: Another KZfaqr named Kafonn had previously made a video with a similar concept called "The Problem With Zoners in Smash Ultimate." This video was fairly small, and I didn't know about it until production on mine was nearly complete (a viewer replied to one of my posts announcing this one). Frankly, I'm not sure it would have changed my plans even if I did know about it, the concept is fairly generic and there are already multiple "The Problem[s] With X" videos on my channel, but for the sake of keeping everything above board I do feel more comfortable mentioning it. Theirs is very different than mine, but solid in its own right and worth a watch: • The Problem With Zoner...
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Music used:
"MockRock is Here (Relaxed)" - MockRock
"MockRock is Here" - MockRock
"Down Down Down Down" - Exit the Gungeon OST
"Air Force Base Theme" - Street Fighter V Champion Edition OST
"Guile Theme" - Street Fighter V Champion Edition OST
"Tellur Town (Autumn)" - Pokken Tournament OST
"Online Menu" - Castle Crashers OST
"Dance Cells" - Dead Cells OST
All original music, as well as its stems, are available for download to patrons, KZfaq members, and Twitch subscribers
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Thanks for watching!
#SuperSmashBros #Nintendo #SmashUltimate

Пікірлер: 2 000

@MrMockRock 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching everyone! This comment has some important information in it, so please consider clicking "Read More." Before that though, let me know your thoughts on zoners in Smash, as well as any archetypes you'd like to see show up in future polls! -Second channel: kzfaq.info -Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock -Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch -Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock -Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock Correction: I stated that (Dark) Samus' Screw Attack comes out on frame 6. That's incorrect, it actually starts on frame 4 and its initial hitbox lasts until frame 6, I got those confused. Thanks to glob2454 for the correction, and damn do I wish KZfaq still supported annotations. Disclaimer: This video features the upcoming video game Rushdown Revolt. Vortex Games, the creators of this title, recently approached me to do contracted consulting work for their team. This video is NOT sponsored, and the script was written and recorded before any discussions were had. While I am choosing to disclose the relationship for the sake of transparency, it did not influence the creation of this video, nor any previous videos on the channel that featured either Rushdown Revolt or its precursor Icons: Combat Arena. Any future videos that feature Rushdown Revolt will include an appropriate disclaimer that outlines the specifics of their influence on the project, or lack thereof. Note: Another KZfaqr named Kafonn had previously made a video with a similar concept called "The Problem With Zoners in Smash Ultimate." This video was fairly small, and I didn't know about it until production on mine was nearly complete (a viewer replied to one of my posts announcing this one). Frankly, I'm not sure it would have changed my plans even if I did know about it, the concept is fairly generic and there are already multiple "The Problem[s] With X" videos on my channel, but for the sake of keeping everything above board I do feel more comfortable mentioning it. Theirs is very different than mine, but solid in its own right and worth a watch: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/n7KJedqc1p_SgoE.html

@pika4668 3 жыл бұрын

always impressed to see thorough disclaimers, great job as always man!

@R0TEK 3 жыл бұрын

Keep up the good content 👍

@cat6833 3 жыл бұрын

Projectiles: broke Projectile Manipulation: WOKE

@soulcyclone360 3 жыл бұрын

Kazyua is a Mishima style fighter, not a shoto. Shoto or shoto like fighters typically have an upper cut that sends themselves upwards, a spinning attack that send them sideways and a fire ball that while can be angled, normally defaults to following the horizontal axis. An auto turnaround function and command inputs doesn't make a character a shoto, otherwise most fighting games would be completely shoto based even though they follow their own archetypes independent of shotos, which are their own archetype.

@cyrusgarretson7928 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for always being so transparent and kind to your viewers and other creators

@camusreviews6877 3 жыл бұрын

Min Min’s weaknesses: Bad disadvantage, weak approach Min Min’s strengths: Doesn’t get hit into disadvantage, doesn’t need to approach

@MasterKnightDH 3 жыл бұрын

Me when playing Kid Icarus Uprising: Oh, your Power setup is entirely focused on the likes of Energy Charge and Slip Shot to kite me out and hope to laugh at my Super Armor usage? Black Hole. GG.

@captainmega6310 3 жыл бұрын

This just zoner 101. Most of them prefers not approaching

@MasterKnightDH 3 жыл бұрын

@@captainmega6310 That IS their choice, but the dearth of bravery from them is still something that more games need to call out.

@captainmega6310 3 жыл бұрын

@@MasterKnightDH What ACTUALLY needs to be done is the need more tutorials to help teach younger, less experienced players how to deal with them

@MasterKnightDH 3 жыл бұрын

@@captainmega6310 How about projectiles be more interactive in the first place. The problem isn't the difficulty, it's simply the boredom they generate. Needing to commit to a binary approach to manage ANY offense is anything but stimulating. When I defeat Projectile Spammer #81,018,001 with the exact same method without ANY sort of healthy deviation beyond luck with attack timing, it feels so hollow to have done so.

@julesmcbride2692 3 жыл бұрын

At this rate I think you should just make "The Problem(s) with Snake's Down Air"

@ken7007 3 жыл бұрын

You mean his frame data as a whole

@julesmcbride2692 3 жыл бұрын

@@ken7007 I just think it's neat!

@zukrad634 3 жыл бұрын

Literally just a jpeg of the hitbox named "20%"

@adamice2526 3 жыл бұрын

for real lmao, whenever I'm playing snake and think about how I can tack on damage quickly, I am holding shield and waiting for the opponent to hit me

@ken7007 3 жыл бұрын

Turtle City

@Casual_PKBeats 3 жыл бұрын

Super interesting video, loved hearing a bit about this topic. And, I'm not gonna lie, the idea of giving Ganondorf's Wizkick a projectile-exclusive invincibility, or even just the idea of that mechanic in general, sounds REALLY nice...

@MrMockRock 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, appreciate it!

@socksleeve 3 жыл бұрын

Please god (Sakurai) just give Ganon a way to counter projectiles

@BombyGaming232 3 жыл бұрын

Knowing nintendo though they probably wont and add another fire emblem character and not waluigi

@Robbie_Haruna 3 жыл бұрын

What if Wizard's Foot reflected

@10types 3 жыл бұрын

Imagine if up tilt was the same as home run bat. Allowing it to end early makes the bat's smash attack viable if your opponent isn't careful and is a constant threat to play around.

@K-Sha1 3 жыл бұрын

One of the biggest issues with zoners in Smash to me is that when characters have reflectors or other tools that help with dealing with zoners, they are almost always on zoners or characters who already have a projectile. The most clear cut counter to a zone is given to characters who are creating it.

@auser4649 3 жыл бұрын

Just shoot them as if they hurt Noire k-sha

@Endershock1678 3 жыл бұрын

@@auser4649 She's playing against Uni, who has a laser that covers a city with of space. She's out zoned.

@theiceman4494 3 жыл бұрын

Mii gunner starts whistling nervously

@RacingSnails64 2 жыл бұрын

That's a really interesting realization. Wtf is up with that lol

@peregrinehawk8363 2 жыл бұрын

And some tools don't even make a major difference. Take incineroar's counter. He counters a projectile. And then he still has to make it to the zoner, with his horrible run speed and them shooting they're projectiles. Also, if it's samus, he'll get close to samus, and get grabbed, and lose revenge.

@BromanderInChief 3 жыл бұрын

Ight, imma rushdown a zoner in Super Smash Brothers Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch™️ Damn, the zoner got hands

@ink3487 3 жыл бұрын

Remember when parrying a projectile would leave you MORE MINUS than when you just sheilded it

@flamingpaper7751 3 жыл бұрын

Parrying Sonic's spindash leaves Sonic with an 8 frame advantage, meaning it's literally impossible to punish Sonic with any character

@Gamer-qw3ll 3 жыл бұрын

@@flamingpaper7751 Perfect

@daringiconoclast6547 3 жыл бұрын

@@flamingpaper7751 what about frame 1 invincible up b out of shield?

@flamingpaper7751 3 жыл бұрын

@@daringiconoclast6547 Doesn't matter since Sonic will have 8 frames to get away by the time you can act. And he's in the middle of Spin Dash btw

@theexaltedlt8222 3 жыл бұрын

@@flamingpaper7751 it's like the game wasn't play tested

@MrDanishbuttercookie 3 жыл бұрын

This is a certified hood classic

@galacticpookachus6780 3 жыл бұрын

Couldn’t agree more

@owenthetallguy 3 жыл бұрын

This is a certified hood classic

@jcplays5831 3 жыл бұрын

It is WORTHY

@hideokojima9090 3 жыл бұрын

*Verified user makes low effort comment* Reaches top comment anyway

@jcplays5831 3 жыл бұрын

@@hideokojima9090 why you hating

@kestrel7493 3 жыл бұрын

In the "what's a zoner and why do I punch it" bit, this is why I really like power shielding reflecting projectiles, a universal bit of help against zoning. Balanced by the fact that reflected projectiles do way less damage

@chrispo7610 3 жыл бұрын

Parry reflecting would give characters an extremely easy, noncommittal option to just invalidate prpjectile zoning. Characters that drop at least a tier with this change: Samus Villy and Isabelle Gunner Luigi Belmonts Dr mario Sephiroth Robin Yink Tink Snake Diddy

@mintystingmoon4787 3 жыл бұрын

I really feel like there’s not much incentive to parry in this game compared to perfect shielding in other Smash games, so adding that reflector would honestly fix that.

@ThrusterMcBuster 3 жыл бұрын

@@chrispo7610 I don’t think it would be ‘easy’ as you’d need to either predict or react very fast to parry it nor do I think it would ‘invalidate’ some zoners as there is always counter play. But its pretty much impossible to know how this would effect game balance because it’s all speculation

@halloweenpeachy 3 жыл бұрын

@@chrispo7610 I’d rather see snake drop a tier. Top 12 Zoner? Lmao.

@nisekoishi 3 жыл бұрын

@@chrispo7610 so you're saying parry reflecting would give characters an extremely easy, noncommital option to invalidate an extremely easy, noncommital strategy to invalidate approaches? hmmm....

@UltraPaperGamer 3 жыл бұрын

"Poor predictable Bart, always pick the zooners" "Good old Zooners, nothing beats them" "Proyectyle" "Reflector" "Doh"

@Fritz_Haarmann 3 жыл бұрын

Fox: I have a reflector that can be hold however long I like Min Min:That's not fair mine has to be timed ganondorf:you guys get reflectors also Simpsons

@letsmakeit110 3 жыл бұрын

@@Fritz_Haarmann tbf, Fox's reflector is a great move, put on the absolute worst character for it. Fox's main weakness isn't his weight or his recovery - it's his lack of anti-approach tools. If you get the jump on him and come in with a hitbox, what am I going to challenge it with? Nair? Ftilt? So what Fox players do is they move around. Fast run, noncommittal jump Fox's mobility is incredible. But if you reflect something, you'd better hope that reflected projectile hits them otherwise you're going to be a sitting duck without any of that trademark mobility. I co-main Peach and I really wish reflector and toad were just swapped somehow. Would improve both characters tremendously. There's a few other subtleties I won't get into but I always thought Fox was a bit overrated against zoners. There's a reason he does so poorly online.

@Ego-Fiend 3 жыл бұрын

Ganondorf in project plus:"Fuck that now i got one!"

@drakejoshofficialyoutubech5569 3 жыл бұрын

@@Fritz_Haarmann I hate how Ganon is given 2 Falcon Punches but nothing to deal with projectiles. Falcon at least is fast and can whiff punish somewhat easily depending on who he's facing.

@veryconfusedidiot 3 жыл бұрын

bug fables

@GawainSSB 3 жыл бұрын

I think Belmonts are the best designed of the zoners in Ultimate. Their weaknesses actually matter unlike most zoners in the game. And one of the only reasons they're not very good is a relatively easy one to fix, all they need is lower average KO percents and they'd be way better.

@Tonjit41 2 жыл бұрын

Yknow.... yah. You're right.

@SteampunkSavage 2 жыл бұрын

And a recovery that’s not like bottom 3

@OrigamiAhsoka 2 жыл бұрын

Lower axe’s kill percent away from like 50 and yeah

@deester7914 2 жыл бұрын

@@SteampunkSavage their recovery isnt even that bad if you use their aerials as tethers

@DBE_TheZek 2 жыл бұрын

Then he gets you to the ledge…

@yaboikiba4302 3 жыл бұрын

1:30 Jack-Of-All-Trades: Shows a shoto Shotos: Shows a Mishima

@simeonellinger2064 3 жыл бұрын

He knew what he was doing

@franciscofernandez8183 3 жыл бұрын

14:26 Ganon actually had an anti proyectile move. In Melee Captain Falcon and Ganon's side B had this "proyectile intagibility" property while having a really not-disjointed hitbox. It was designed to sidestep proyectiles but lose to normal hitboxes.

@k-leb4671 2 жыл бұрын

Huh realy? Weird.

@rocketleax5 Жыл бұрын

I've never heard of this, I wish they kept it.

@TheTrueBrawler Жыл бұрын

@@rocketleax5 To my understanding, they actually got rid of it in the PAL version of Melee.

@lasercraft32 Жыл бұрын

That's rediculous! Why would they remove that its so fitting!

@EtiKai13 3 жыл бұрын

Zoners when the opponent has a reflector: "D'oh!"

@sennahoj9332 3 жыл бұрын

The reflected projectile just collides with the rest of the spam

@sennahoj9332 3 жыл бұрын

Today I was ledgetrapped and camped by banjo for 5 minutes straight

@KingKayEyeDee 3 жыл бұрын

Nah bro then they start playing the game and you realise pacman and young link got better frame data than you

@pablothewartortle3143 3 жыл бұрын

Min Min: I have no such weaknesses

@sennahoj9332 3 жыл бұрын

@@KingKayEyeDee Exactly.

@Cole-fg8us 3 жыл бұрын

“This video was fairly small” Still a half hr long analysis of a single character archetype 😭

@andremorrison7626 3 жыл бұрын

Botw is his standard lmao

@dannygoofers 3 жыл бұрын

Then you look at his 4 1/2 hour botw video

@iCactusDog 3 жыл бұрын

Shoto? It's a regional dialect. Uh-huh. Eh, what region? Uhhhhhhhhhh Smash Bros. Really? Well I'm from Street FIgther and I've never heard anyone use the term 'shoto'.

@crack4184 3 жыл бұрын

Oh no no! Not Street Fighter. It's from Ultimate

@TheRealHelvetica 3 жыл бұрын

Smash nerds: “kazuya’s a shoto” FGC nerds: “Nooo only Ryu and Ken are Shotos because they’re they practice Shotokan!” Other FGC nerds: “Isn’t Shoto-Kahn a Mortal Kombat character?” 🤔

@wannabecinnabon 3 жыл бұрын

But...shoto is totally used in Street Fighter's community, and other fighting games as a whole. It's one of the most classic character archetypes out there. It just means something very different from "character that is from a different fighting game"

@iCactusDog 3 жыл бұрын

@@wannabecinnabon okay!

@Underworlder5 3 жыл бұрын

@@wannabecinnabon mario could arguably be considered a shoto in smash. designed to be easy to play, projectile, spinning uppercut...

@elistiagel642 3 жыл бұрын

Not just Dalsim, in traditional 2D fighters, moves generally change character's hurtbox, some more than others. Long reaching move usually extend their hurtbox forward so they can be hit if they whiff the attack. For example, Ferry from GBFV, Axl from Guilty Gear etc. They are not projectiles. I know it sounds weird, but when I heard people said Min Min is too good. I wondered why don't try space it and hit the flying fist. Then I realized there are no hurtbox on the fists. She's Dalsim, right? Why I can't hiy her body part to damage her?

@MrMockRock 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I've gotten a few comments like this. I know traditional fighters tend to be a lot more conservative with disjoints than Smash and even though Dhalsim is a bit of an extreme case, you can still hit at least a solid portion of a lot of midrange zoners' tools. I didn't think it was worth mentioning since it was more of a quick "hey even this isn't a true template character" comment, but in hindsight I probably should have been a bit more clear.

@OrigamiAhsoka 2 жыл бұрын

I just wish her arms didn’t clank with every move to exist asjshaikene

@k-leb4671 2 жыл бұрын

It would be nice if hitting her arms at least put her in some kind of animation that provides an opening for you, or deals damage to her without making her flinch.

@sebaschan-uwu 2 жыл бұрын

Min mins arms are balanced by the fact that they are so weak to being jumped over

@TheTrueBrawler Жыл бұрын

@@sebaschan-uwu You clearly aren't accounting for the existence of the Ramram if you genuinely believe this, but even if the Ramram didn't exist, the slow characters would still struggle to get in. Their ability to jump over the arms is quite limited due to this inherent disadvantage.

@sarasaland4709 3 жыл бұрын

Next analysis: Why is Snake's Down Air allowed to even?

@ken7007 3 жыл бұрын

How a lot of his shit are

@willycheez7218 3 жыл бұрын

Why is Snake's Up Tilt allowed to kill at 80?

@ken7007 3 жыл бұрын

Why is it safe they even buff it

@captainmega6310 3 жыл бұрын

@@willycheez7218 because you play a light character

@genepeebody303 3 жыл бұрын

It’s an amazing move however you can SDI out of it. Still a broken move and I agree.

@origamiman5460 3 жыл бұрын

That Justin Wong clip is still one of my favorite ever

@jhayde8868 3 жыл бұрын

You gotta learn! love it

@zegreenemachine8160 3 жыл бұрын

@@jhayde8868 no no you’re cheating

@absoul112 3 жыл бұрын

Welcome to the real world!

@zegreenemachine8160 3 жыл бұрын

@@absoul112 I ain’t gonna be part of this SYSTEM!

@e2daron 3 жыл бұрын

Simon: I'm gonna be doing this. *Simon swings his whip* Simon: If you get hit, it's your own fault. Kazuya: Ok, then I'm gonna start kicking air like this. *Kazuya kicks the air* Kazuya: And if any part of you should fill that air, it's your own fault.

@edwardperkins1225 3 жыл бұрын

I haven't had more than one match with Kazuya playing a Belmont. I badly want to teach Kazuya a lesson with him, but the opportunity has alluded me for now.

@destroyerofworlds4663 Жыл бұрын

Simpsons reference?

@DoMorrMusic Жыл бұрын

@@destroyerofworlds4663 1:33

@uberculex 3 жыл бұрын

I feel like you picked Dhalsim as a pure zoner, which is true. However, he is the extreme. Think of him more like Min Min rather than Samus. Samus is more equivalent to Sagat. Very strong zoning, not a bad close up game. If you attempt to punish zoning with an unsafe option, he has a DP to punish you. Dhalsim is generally low tier in the newer games because other characters aren't pure zoners. This isn't a problem with just smash. LOTS of fighting games have strong zoners with good reversal "get off me" options.

@Skallva 2 жыл бұрын

The thing is, Sagat having a DP is balanced out by the fact his fastest normal is 4f. Doesn't sound like much but it means that he has no safe options to interrupt certain frame traps, meaning he's more prone to melting under pressure. On the other hand, Menat, another zoner in SFV, has a 3f normal that can act as an interrupt but she has no mashable DP to compensate. There is a deliberate balancing put in their movesets to ensure they are not too strong while the opponent attempts to open them up. And that's pretty par-for-the-course with zoners. I genuinely can't think of a single modern FG zoner that isn't put at a clear disadvantage once the opponent gets in.

@Matthew-uz5fn 3 жыл бұрын

"Projectiles are bullshit!" -Sol Badguy

@bwoeYT 3 жыл бұрын

Sol Badguy for Smash

@Matthew-uz5fn 3 жыл бұрын

@@bwoeYT agreed

@megasartshack 3 жыл бұрын

"Blazing"

@2bussy 3 жыл бұрын

Nah I'd rather keep Sol in fighting games he doesn't need to be in party games too.

@Matthew-uz5fn 3 жыл бұрын

@@2bussy guess we'll put him in melee instead then

@karmah_star8986 3 жыл бұрын

“MAKE IT STOP” - ganondorf 2021

@urmomsoldballs 3 жыл бұрын

He's already dead!

@Gamer-qw3ll 3 жыл бұрын

2021

@cardboard1516 3 жыл бұрын

That’s what I said when the cat used me as a scratching post

@fleur9923 3 жыл бұрын

I know the intro isn’t “new” but I can’t overstate how much of an improvement it is to the old one

@jonathanlgill 3 жыл бұрын

I don't remember an old one.

@fleur9923 3 жыл бұрын

@@jonathanlgill there definitely is one, just go back to some older videos

@pzslice2670 3 жыл бұрын

Honestly its not that the old intro was bad but this one is just SO CLEAN

@glob-zt5ci 3 жыл бұрын

4:58 samus up b (screw attack) is actually frame 4 grounded (frame 5 in the air) not frame 6

@MrMockRock 3 жыл бұрын

Oh, good catch, I'm looking at the frame data now and I actually read the last frame of the initial hitbox as the first one, oops! I'll issue a correction, thanks for the heads up.

@peterduprey7286 3 жыл бұрын

I wish it WAS frame 6…

@sarasaland4709 3 жыл бұрын

You think the king of evil has a recurring nightmare about a death stare kid with a slingshot?

@emotion_deluxe 3 жыл бұрын

He pretends to be unphased by zelda until she sends a fully charged dins fire his way while he's off stage.

@RacingSnails64 2 жыл бұрын

@@emotion_deluxe It's highly amusing to imagine Ganon has the same crippling anxiety that Gohan does in DBZ abridged. Dodging incoming projectiles.

@animedrummerboy 3 жыл бұрын

Players like mewtwoking make a solid point about stage selection heavily impacting zoner play….primarily the inability to select smaller stages and how they should be tournament legal. The stage selection currently heavily favors zoners

@Buglin_Burger7878 2 жыл бұрын

Faster characters and Zoners dominate in that situation. Bowser is a big target with little space to go while a Zoner can just hit you off stage without much set up and then zone you from there. In fact this almost ensures their zone covers the entire stage letting them be opposite ledge and punish you.

@OneCSeven 3 жыл бұрын

I keep getting hit by fireballs whenever I dash in. Am I bad at this game? No, it's the zoners who are wrong.

@frog_phone 3 жыл бұрын

ahhh yes

@mehgamer467 3 жыл бұрын

@GaZZ its a meme

@theexaltedlt8222 3 жыл бұрын

Maybe if you could instantly shield

@RacingSnails64 2 жыл бұрын

As a Ganondorf main since Brawl, the answer to projectiles is blindingly simple: *Jump.*

@sadaarontveit3635 2 жыл бұрын

@@RacingSnails64 unless it's one of the zoners who can swat ganon with anti-airs immediately after an attack. Samus charge shot to zair or min min side tilt to fair while drifting back wins that exchange. Min min's fair and bair are also safe on shield, making it so that ganon is at a disadvantage against an equally skilled player. If you've been doing well with ganon against zoners, it's safe to say that there is a skill gap between you and your opponents

@ParryHisParry 3 жыл бұрын

People who play Zoners even though they are hated: "I just think they're neat!"

@odinnotodin7608 3 жыл бұрын

As a Samus main, This is 100% accurate

@Nolan1333 3 жыл бұрын

That's me with dark Samus and Ivysaur

@LFITZY1745 3 жыл бұрын

i’m at a weird medium because i’m a villager main so i get zoner hate, but i’m not always zoning.

@timothyestrada4549 3 жыл бұрын

I just play villager cause of the smile on his face as he beats the shit out of his opponents

@k-dawgHI 3 жыл бұрын

Duck Hunt here… yeah checks out… I do mainly love the character because I found him and the Duck adorable and also they seemed really creative which is the reason why I like zoners… the right person can make them so great to watch

@Fin0fLenster 3 жыл бұрын

14:27 "Wizard's Foot with projectile invulnerability" I'VE WANTED THIS FOR YEARS.

@theillusionist1494 3 жыл бұрын

A running joke I’ve had with my friends is “Link is a swordfighter who can zone. Young Link is a zoner with a sword. And Toon Link is there too.” Here’s hoping our cartoon boy gets some love in the next game. But either way, phenomenal video. You perfectly verbalized some of the issues I’ve had with zoners while playing this game.

@JacobPDeIiNoNi 2 жыл бұрын

Toon link's normals are actually quite good and very underrated, the only drawback is his generally low damage output but his frame data and move speed are pretty good and his combo potential isn't half as bad as people think

@theillusionist1494 2 жыл бұрын

@@JacobPDeIiNoNi I agree that he’s underrated in terms of viability, but I also agree with MockRock that his overlap with the other two Links is a bit much for my liking.

@JacobPDeIiNoNi 2 жыл бұрын

@@theillusionist1494 I agree I think all 3 could use a moveset overhaul to be more true to their source games to be honest. how well designed link's remote bomb is and details like the master sword beam, gives me hope.

@schmaffew2343 2 жыл бұрын

@@JacobPDeIiNoNi I think it would be cool if young link's neutral B should be the sling shot from oot, that functions simmilarly to foxes or falco's lazer, his down b could either remain the bomb as its not very spammable, or be him putting on one of the masks from majora's mask and doing something cool. (up to nintendo.) And maybe make his zair function like his fire arrow's before, make it quicker, so he can continue his combo's as before, but the zair has far less range. I also think that young link should be played more like an aggressive combo character not a zoner, thats how i've always played him anyways, so I'd give him a little bit, not alot just a little more speed to compensate for the lack of range he previously had. I acctually have a problem where I care to much about what people think of me and don't use projectiles when I should because I dont wanna be an "annoying spammer." I think this sounds pretty balanced, but I could be completely wrong and might've accidentally created the next Brawl Meta Knight.

@DBE_TheZek 2 жыл бұрын

Young link is a *hybrid with a kitchen knife. That is not a real sword.

@iliakatster 3 жыл бұрын

I think the reason zoners need a decent panic option is because of the amount of non-committal mobility in smash. In street fighter, if Ryu launches a fireball, you can either block it, time a forward jump over it, time a neutral jump over it, or use a move that can negate it. With just jumps, double jumps and a single platform you have 3 lanes you can approach from while still being able to airdodge or shield at any time, so while a fireball in sf forces a comittal response, in smash, it really just occupies one lane of approach. So because of that, while in traditional fighters a zoner can keep you out all game, in smash, they're really just delaying your inevitable approach and trying to force you to burn resources or pick a committal option to read and punish with a committal close range option, or shield the attack and punish with OOS. If you wanted a pure zoner with no close range ability, you'd need to give them marvel vs capcom Morrigan levels of oppression and I'd rather that just not exist in the game.

@MrMockRock 3 жыл бұрын

So, I've received a few comments saying similar things, and while I agree that Smash's approach options are way more powerful, it's a 2 way street. Platforms can also be used to cover a zoner from above. Projectiles can all be thrown forward out of a jump, which often covers both grounded and aerial approaches, particularly when done out of a short hop. So yes, Smash has better and less committal jump ins, but it also has better and less committal zoning tools to combat this. And to top it off, while I agree that zoners need close range capabilities of some kind (and said so in the video), they have some of the game's absolute best CQC options alongside a keep out game, which I don't think should be how they work and has been a source of frustration I've heard many people bring up over Ultimate's life.

@Skallva 2 жыл бұрын

You say this yet anime fighters are also known for their crazy mobility and zoners generally lack options to get their opponents off them. Example: Melty Blood has much crazier and more freeflow air movement than Smash, and yet Vlov in Type Lumina (the game's main zoner) still has to rely on system mechanics like shields to contest rushdowns like Arc and Miyako once they get in.

@pizzaeater8905 Жыл бұрын

@@MrMockRock Plus, the non-committal mobility also applies to zoners as well. Most zoners are perfectly capable of running to the other side of the stage after you get off the ledge.

@cdogthehedgehog6923 11 ай бұрын

@Skallva the hell you talking bout boah

@BringBackOGClubPenguin 2 ай бұрын

@@pizzaeater8905But where do they move once they’re at the edge of the stage?

@keysmash_roa 3 жыл бұрын

I disagree with the statement that being able to hit the long attacks of normal-based zoners is rare, Traditional Fighters are a lot more conservative with disjoint than Platform Fighters, simply because it's harder to just avoid them. You can also hit Axl's chain in Guilty Gear, for instance. Menat in SFV actually does have a decent amount of disjoint, which makes her very good at keeping people out with little risk, however she also gets less reward for landing these attacks and they're not as far ranged for the same commitment. That being said, they had to tone it down because it was too much. Disjoint is strong in these games and so zoners usually don't get it for free.

@MrMockRock 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, that's fair to some degree, and zoners in traditional fighters tend to be divided into midrange and projectile, whereas in Smash I personally tend to lump midrange more into the swordfighter archetype as its own thing. The parallels aren't perfect and I tried to stick to as basic an overview as possible, but hopefully at least a solid chunk of it makes sense to most people.

@dj_koen1265 2 жыл бұрын

Sword fighters arent zoners though And min min would be a good example of a midrange zoner

@ADxTygon 3 жыл бұрын

As a traditional fighting game player seeing shoto with a picture of kazuya triggers me

@broom2839 3 жыл бұрын

Smash players get fg terms wrong all the time. It's funny actually.

@azellumius8835 3 жыл бұрын

It was intentional apparently...

@ADxTygon 3 жыл бұрын

@@azellumius8835 yeah i tihnk at this point people know better, but its still pretty funny to see regardless

@RacingSnails64 2 жыл бұрын

I just looked up the origins of the term shoto recently. Apparently it historically refers to techniques using the sword. Lol.

@abexuro 2 жыл бұрын

In smash all FG characters have a similar play style, and somehow shoto became the catch-all term for these characters. Even though it's not accurate to the play styles in their own games.

@limepie3801 3 жыл бұрын

Many of the reasons cited in this video are why I want the next Smash game to just be a big overhaul of the series. I don't really mind if we get lots of cuts, just try to perfect the mechanics, and change a lot of the older characters' movesets to be more balanced and faithful to their original franchises, some big examples being Donkey Kong and Ganondorf.

@ictogon 2 жыл бұрын

Smash bros 3d

@ExaltedUriel 2 жыл бұрын

I agree, they'll probably never be able to top Ultimate with its roster and breadth of content anyway, so they might as well try something totally different. And the people who aren't into it can just keep playing Ultimate, lord knows Melee players are still doing the same after 20 years. lmao

@yurplethepurple2064 Жыл бұрын

Give dk mine cart as a reference to donkey Kong country

@yurplethepurple2064 Жыл бұрын

Give dk mine cart as a reference to donkey Kong country, then maybe his disadvantage won’t be as horrendous

@doswallo 3 жыл бұрын

This video was a perfect summary of how I feel about the design of Smash's zoners. Fantastic production as always!

@Xeroxthebeautiful 3 жыл бұрын

Robin's the zoner I have by far the most experience with having mained them throughout all of Smash 4 and still playing them a decent amount in Ultimate. They are an interesting case in that they're one of the zoners who struggles hardest against other zoners thanks to the formerly lowest now second lowest ground speed, around average to slightly below average air speed, lack of any special tools to deal with other zoners, somewhat slow startup on most of their stronger projectiles and especially poor tools in disadvantage.

@amazinblasian117 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, as a Robin main, I'd say most of my least favorite matchups are against other zoners.

@tacticixn 3 жыл бұрын

@@amazinblasian117 yeah same here

@OrigamiAhsoka 2 жыл бұрын

You can use thoron to punish the distance three times but then you’re screwed

@mollywantshugs5944 3 жыл бұрын

25:12 I’d say it’s potentially worth it. See also: the beloved Guilty Gear series has a situation where characters are so nutty that everyone has a few characters they hate, even though the balance is enough that every matchup is doable

@captainmega6310 3 жыл бұрын

I would just say it's worth it.

@nousername191 3 жыл бұрын

I know my inner Zelda fan is talking right now, but I think if there's ONE character that should be overhauled, it's Dorf. He deserves better than to be stuck with a move-set clone that has nothing to do with him with only Side B and Smashes changed in 2 decades.

@trsm7228 3 жыл бұрын

Not just a few, most guilty gear players will hate every character that they are not currently playing

@kirbyjinet302 3 жыл бұрын

Project m ganondorf does exactly what this video says, his new neutral b is a reflector (plus a float) and his wizard foot cuts through projectiles or clanks if the projectile is too powerfull. Makes playing against zoners sooo much more fun.

@bingobo2551 2 жыл бұрын

I kinda wished vanilla ganon was like this. I kinda wanted ganon to be more different to falcon than what we got.

@Pigmcginnyrig 3 жыл бұрын

I remember in early Smash Ultimate that Mii Gunner’s projectiles were really positive on shield and created shield break setups

@peterduprey7286 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah Gunner was busted at first but thankfully they toned it down. Now Mii Swordfighter is a better zoner than the Mii that’s designed to be a zoner.

@wintersummer1633 3 жыл бұрын

@@peterduprey7286 doubt it. gunners down b s still very positive on shield

@HunterForHire422 3 жыл бұрын

The biggest problem with smash character design for me is not that they are good. But that many aren't fun to fight. When half the roster makes me wanna stop playing its hard to wanna play at all.

@UsingGorillaLogic 3 жыл бұрын

As someone that actively plays Zoners. I genuinely always felt like Rivals of Aether had the right idea of giving every character a reflector. It just felt.... right. It solves so much while needing a lot less effort than other methods to implement.

@bralone 3 жыл бұрын

I love getting in on zoners then outloud saying "I lose!" because in smash ultimate... its true

@djcarlo 3 жыл бұрын

Love that Ganondorf in the thumbnail 😳

@mollywantshugs5944 3 жыл бұрын

Could you do foaties? Also an interesting note is that zoning in Smash involves a lot more movement than in traditional fighters due to traditional fighters generally happening with more limited movement options and more claustrophobic stages

@alfiealfie35 3 жыл бұрын

foaties

@borederlands5387 3 жыл бұрын

I think that's just down to platform fighters being mostly about movement next to most traditional fighters. In strive i think axl only needs to worry about movement against chipp ram or millia who have ways to get around his antiairs

@kha0ticdud3 3 жыл бұрын

foaties

@petelee2477 3 жыл бұрын

I didn't know fighters in other games were so afraid of Santa clause.

@E4439Qv5 3 жыл бұрын

@@petelee2477 *HOH HOH HOH...*

@EnvysOnTwitch 3 жыл бұрын

Finally catching a zoner and being like "why you little..!" As you strangle them with grabs and combos

@benjaminratthe9904 2 жыл бұрын

Except you can't, because after winning rock-paper-scissors 3 times in a row and finally getting close to them, you realize they have a better oos option than you

@AVI-lh6rm Жыл бұрын

@@benjaminratthe9904 ganondorf... 😭

@brendanhughes5679 3 жыл бұрын

I would like to see you talk about grapplers. I see a lot of Luigi hate when it only seems to be for his touch of death, if that were removed then I don’t see how he could be considered poorly designed. Something else interesting is how Bowser and DK got a lot of hate back in Smash 4 for their combo grabs but I just don’t understand it. Yeah, they want to land grabs. They’re grapplers, that’s how they win. They didn’t immediately kill off of them, but landing a few grabs was enough to take a stock. Similarly, Zangief in Street Fighter only needs to land one command grab to put his opponents in a panic because he can follow that up with basically whatever he wants. I just don’t understand why people think grapplers are poorly designed for wanting to land grabs.

@Buglin_Burger7878 3 жыл бұрын

Grabs themselves exist as a way to counter shields and counters... how do you counter a grab or someone who has powerful grabs and attacks? DK hits you like a truck if you try to time a dodge for a grab... but if you try to dodge/shield that attack you end up being grabbed and lose a stock. It is similar to the flaws in zoners... a focus which is contrary to the core game itself.

@brendanhughes5679 3 жыл бұрын

@Dragoonsoul7878 To my knowledge the Smash neutral triangle works as such: shield beats attack, grab beats shield, attack beats grab. I don't think the flaw is with individual characters, but rather with the game itself, and thats mainly because grab teching is one of the most worthless mechanics put into Smash. Very rarely do you ever see it, and it's based entirely on the frame data of said grab. If both grabs' active hitboxes collide on the same frame, the throw is teched and neither player wins the interaction. I don't think it needs to be said that this is horrendously small. Back to a game like SFV, you don't have to connect on the same exact frame to tech a throw. The window to tech is somewhere around 7-11 frames (I don't know the exact number) and as long as you use your throw in this window, no matter how far into a throw your opponent is, you will tech it. Smash does not encourage you to challenge a grab with a grab of your own, which makes players resort to less favorable options (spot dodge, attacking, etc.). Although, I don't think attempting to dodge is as bad as you say it is. Think of probably the purest grappler in the game: Incineroar. He has three kill throws, a combo throw, and a powerful, advancing command grab. However, he's slow as hell and absolutely cannot get in without risk. But that's what grapplers do, they slowly charge at their opponent to end up doing massive damage. The problem with this is that Incineroar can't keep up his advantage state like others can. His awful mobility makes chasing people trying to escape him a challenge, and although his moves do decent damage, the reward for most of his normals is surprisingly low. This completely goes against the grappler philosophy of "land one grab and win." Looking at it, though, this might just be a problem with the game being a platform fighter. Zangief in SFV has the benefit of each command grab leading to a knockdown which sets him up for command grab loops, as well as good normals and a normal throw to keep the opponent guessing. Incineroar can't maintain that advantage state easily, and he doesn't have any notable tools to keep his opponents guessing between grab and attack. But then how do you even design this in a game like Smash? This is why I think Luigi is a good grappler. Not only is his grab rewarding, but he has a good close range fireball as well as very fast and safe normals. This is what grants him his grab vs. attack guessing game, and landing the right attack (nair, fair, dtilt) can be almost as rewarding as the grab itself. The TOD is obviously a bit much, but I do think Luigi and other grapplers only struggle in the design sense because the Smash team doesn't think that deeply of the archetype.

@sebaschan-uwu 2 жыл бұрын

@@Buglin_Burger7878 SPOT DODGE

@sebaschan-uwu 2 жыл бұрын

No one thinks grapplers are poorly designed they are just annoying as fuck to fight. Luigi is annoying as shit but aside from his kill combo he's a garbage character

@hailthequeenFM 6 ай бұрын

@@brendanhughes5679 Luigi has a projectile to bait jumps or shield. He's also killing most heavies with his grap tod.

@hogindoz 3 жыл бұрын

When i was exclusively a smash player, I thought zoners like Samus and Snake were completely fine to play against After playing real fighting games for a few years, I realize that smash zoners are just rushdown characters with zoner moves (which is the worst of both worlds) Its so annoying for a zoner to not die when you get in on them

@vick7868 3 жыл бұрын

Except most zoners aren't. Samus has very few good buttons up close aside from zair and up b, Min Min just dies when you get up close, R.O.B has a crap disadvantage and Snake relies on a move to blow himself up to escape disadvantage, and has bad aerial frame data otherwise. These characters all have decent buttons up close bit not as much as, say, Falcon, Terry, Ryu, Ken, etc.

@mrdeadmemes 2 жыл бұрын

@@vick7868 > samus still has good options (like you said), which means they don't really fall under pressure because they can use their launching moves after you took damage from the zoning > min min counts, that's one > rob's disadvantage doesn't matter because you can just shield if they get in and use his down tilt, so you don't have to get into disadvantage > snake has down air, so out of shield you can just get launched away to continue the zoning

@DeepfriedBeans4492 2 жыл бұрын

Idk what you mean by "after playing real fighting games for a few years", you already said you played smash, are you saying smash bros doesn't exist and is thus fake? Pretty sure we have a lot of evidence on the contrary

@hogindoz 2 жыл бұрын

@@DeepfriedBeans4492 You know what I mean. Platform fighters are huge outliers to REAL fighting games

@DeepfriedBeans4492 2 жыл бұрын

@@hogindoz What about platform fighters makes them FAKE fighting games, it's a different more recent genre but it's still a fighting game. I would understand a term like "classic fighting game" but "real fighting game" implies any others would be a "fake fighting game"

@futureddude4250 3 жыл бұрын

Ahhhhh he uploads again. Hope life is still treating you well man, always happy to see you doing well. Also this man is so close to 100K, lets get him there

@Mr_Mimestamp 3 жыл бұрын

1:07 for a second there, I thought you got Nickelodeon to sponsor you

@MrMockRock 3 жыл бұрын

I'll do it, no hesitation, they can pay me in Spongebob merch. Well, no, actually I want money. But I'll still do it!

@marcusferro7588 3 жыл бұрын

You should definitely talk about comeback characters, I think their concept is super interesting on something that’s outside the bubble of average character types

@andremorrison7626 2 жыл бұрын

Congrats. It happened

@TheHorseWhoKnows 3 жыл бұрын

2:42 I personally would put swordies less in zoning and more under spacing, still putting pressure at a lesser distance while still somewhat falling under zoning

@jeff-gx6ij 3 жыл бұрын

This video made me realize that the summit stage has an aurora borealis centralized entirely within its skybox. Thank you MockRock :)

@thenutwizard 3 жыл бұрын

I really enjoy that kazuya is the representative of shotos lol

@febreeze4655 3 жыл бұрын

did he do that just to piss FG players off lmao

@iron_serpent_2293 3 жыл бұрын

Even though he’s not a shoto 😂

@zegreenemachine8160 3 жыл бұрын

@@iron_serpent_2293 isn’t kazuya one of Tekken’s introduction characters?

@moddedpan4252 3 жыл бұрын

@@zegreenemachine8160 ye but thats not what shoto means, its not totally clear cut but generally shoto refers to when someone is a clone of Ryu

@zegreenemachine8160 3 жыл бұрын

@@moddedpan4252 Ryu is not a shoto either. He does not practice Shotokan Karate.

@ethang7677 3 жыл бұрын

As a person who has been playing a lot of 2D fighters, I would love to see Falcon Kick and Wizard's Foot get projectile invulnerability just as they are. Both moves are high committal options with lots of end lag, so the use of these moves to go through projectiles would give these rather niche moves much more use, while still having a good amount of risk considering their end lag.

@Brawltendo 2 жыл бұрын

Their side Bs did have invulnerability to projectiles in Melee, which are both much better moves anyway. Not sure why they got rid of that in later games. Both moves should probably have it though.

@jamainegardner4193 Жыл бұрын

Forget Projectile Invulnerability, they should have reflector properties.

@guiteshima 3 жыл бұрын

I honestly think the Zoner archetype is actually a good thing for games. It helps players learn how to approach and how to play more safely rather than rushing down most of the time. It can teach a player to be patient. I also feel like zoning and staying away from your opponent is a more than valid option...When there's thought put into it and when you give other characters counterplay and dynamic options to deal with zoning (or even just one option, one way to counter zoning...). Though, when playing a game with different characters you have to learn how to fight them when you play competitively....I say all of this even though Ganon is my second favorite character to play. (Hero's my favorite...RNGesus all the way.) However i do agree that Zoning in Smash has quite a good amount of flaws and the way they play in a very repetitive manner....And just the mobility isn't enough to deal with projectiles and that projectile interactions tend to feel very shallow and repetitive in design.....And the Online doesn't help at all too....

@gubsy3730 3 жыл бұрын

24:54 >Footage implies Freeza is an effective zoner. Lol.

@null6292 3 жыл бұрын

>vs z broly i mean Unknown is pretty cracked with the villain squad

@gubsy3730 3 жыл бұрын

@@null6292 Freeza vs. Z Broly is my vote for the worst matchup in the game, Broly's favor obviously

@kokalombia 3 жыл бұрын

Freeza is an effective zoner... Fighterz is bullshit to zoners tho, put that man un any other game and he would be monstrous

@gubsy3730 3 жыл бұрын

@@kokalombia Yeah Freeza gets completely destroyed by system mechanics. I wouldn't be one to say that any character in the game is truly unviable, as long as you run a top tier shell you could easily make any low tier work... but like he's basically unviable.

@MrMockRock 3 жыл бұрын

Look, it's DBFZ, zoners basically don't exist. But if I'm going to be showing a bunch of modern fighting games, how am I gonna exclude it haha

@BlobstoF 3 жыл бұрын

God the quality of your videos is mind-blowing you really are a step above everyone else love your content ! (Especially this one as a Villager main)

@MrMockRock 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

@gagepolley2577 3 жыл бұрын

Genuinely a very interesting video, it made for a super informative time. I'm a Samus main but rather than trying to keep the distance between players, I try to focus more on closing that gap with her. It's much, much funner trying to play a zoner as a much more up close fighter.

@shnobby3547 2 жыл бұрын

I'm really happy you touched on zoners in an online environment. I honestly don't consider them that problematic in terms of balance or level of intrigue, I just hate how much of an advantage every kind of projectile gets online and it makes me roll my eyes every time I see a young link or a samus pop up in the pregame.

@sebaschan-uwu 2 жыл бұрын

Nobody cares about online when it comes to balancing or competitive play because they all know online is a joke. There's no point in talking about it

@sparrowfox6943 3 жыл бұрын

Lemme say that as a Samus main, I find it satisfying to switch between Zoning, and beating their ass up close by turning her Arm Cannon into a blunt force trauma inducing weapon

@youtubewontletmetypeagoodu8128 2 жыл бұрын

Boo 🍅🍅🍅

@pika4668 3 жыл бұрын

I really like these videos, they're analytical and the editing is really nice!

@jacobblacc3363 3 жыл бұрын

I personally don't mind the Zoner type in fighting game, especially in smash since smash is so free flow in movement. But since the online is so trash and I wanted to play more serious at a time where you can only play online, it's pretty hard to do stuff and react to it. For me, playing against a Zoner is like figuring out a puzzle and when I figure it out, it feels cool(that only applies to offline though)

@lucystarlight8887 3 жыл бұрын

I still maintain that they never should have gotten rid of power shields reflecting projectiles

@chillsgaming1900 3 жыл бұрын

24:20 Finally, someone realizes there isn't enough small stages

@broom2839 3 жыл бұрын

Smash players want to cry when the worst character in the game kills them at 50% with a forward smash on warioware so they ban the entire stage. Meanwhile Melee players play on the jankiest stages of all time instead of banning everything but dreamland and fd.

@orangenostril 3 жыл бұрын

@@broom2839 I think you're confused between small stages and close blast zones

@tree2992 3 жыл бұрын

RE: Projectile-immune dashes (14:00) C. Falcon's side-B in Melee actually does have some projectile-immunity. The frame window is pretty small and players rarely use it on purpose, but that idea was definitely in the developers' minds in 2000. Not sure why they didn't expand on it though.

@-feonix48-47 3 жыл бұрын

Incredible video, always happy to hear your thoughts on stuff like this and you get your points across on complex issues using language that’s easy to understand

@Paulie2342 3 жыл бұрын

The sign is a subtle joke. The shop is called "Sneed's Feed & Seed", where "feed" and "seed" both end in the sound "-eed", thus rhyming with the name of the owner, Sneed. The sign says that the shop was "Formerly Chuck's", implying that the two words beginning with "F" and "S" would have ended with "-uck", rhyming with "Chuck". So, when Chuck owned the shop, it would have been called "Chuck's Feeduck and Seeduck".

@GeneralForster 3 жыл бұрын

Based and sneedpilled

@k-leb4671 2 жыл бұрын

Why are you saying that here?

@morganpartida6960 Жыл бұрын

What is this a reference to?

@eriknelson3238 3 жыл бұрын

I think it’s really rad that these videos often include really sincere shoutouts to other videos that inspired it. Giving credit where credit is due while also leaving a trail to follow for people who are really interested in the topic.

@GumshoeClassic 3 жыл бұрын

The main problem I have with projectiles in Smash is that the projectiles tend to be very straightforward and kinda uninteresting. Might be that I got spoiled by Guilty Gear since they've had some amazingly designed projectile games over the years like Venoms poolballs, the Tuning Ball and Eddie (albeit he is a puppet but you get my point). Also known as cool Luma.

@MasterKnightDH 3 жыл бұрын

Have you ever played Kid Icarus Uprising? Here's a sample video of one of my Boss Battles runs: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/asyearl8us2qj4U.html

@blackateer2559 2 жыл бұрын

It's crazy how good some of the zoning moves are, like villager's sling shot can be so broken at some points, it's like Bart Simpson cracked up to 11.

@johnkastran1253 3 жыл бұрын

Great video! Awesome articulation of the argument beyond “projectiles are annoying”

@Jake76667 3 жыл бұрын

definitely do comeback next

@dc_dachi 3 жыл бұрын

I feel like this video encompasses almost every problem I have with zoner characters in Smash. Another problem more tied to Smash's mechanics is a lack of a universal resource like super meter. More traditional fighting games tend to use meter in order to break up the gameplay loop, and this can be key in making a zoner matchup feel more dynamic. Throughout a match, you can never feel like you have the game in the bag because meter is constantly building. Zoners often need meter in order to perform reversals, but doing so also means sacrificing powerful options that can help them increase their leads. It also gives their a opponent a way to land a powerful punish once they get in or a situational method of by passing the zoner's options in some way, again tying back to your point on "tension" and "catharsis"--you build up meter throughout the match, and then release it once you get the opportunity. It helps that zoners tend to be pretty frail, meaning one key opportunity can be enough to win you the game. Smash lacks this sort of explosive dynamism. No meter means that playing the neutral feels like the non-zoner is straight up losing right off the bat. I'm not gaining anything from playing neutral, there's no reward for pushing through the wall of hitboxes. Then once you break through the opponent's zoning, you get an ok/pretty good punish most of the time and then... return to neutral for however many more minutes until the game is over. I don't get a RC combo, or a veil off, or a super, we just reset back to neutral: an anticlimactic interaction. I don't feel like I've left a devastating blow on my opponent, if anything, it feels like my punish was pretty underwhelming for how much effort I put into getting it.

@mekk-knightsarecool222 3 жыл бұрын

The combo puts the opponent into disadvantage where they’re the weakest tho, so you can really abuse that and get even more %. Also if you take the match slow neutral isn’t as unwinnable as it feels sometimes

@dimondsi 2 жыл бұрын

I'd say the main two issues with zoners, or more specifically projectiles is that the clash with the gameplay of smash. They set a permanent advantage state where you'd assume a character to be in neutral, and I'm not sure we could get away with making up close encounters a true disadvantage state without making their zoning even more intense. I'd say more ways to interact with them would be the best choice. I'd argue that, outside of just giving everyone a parry reflector, we could make better use of dodging on the ground. I'd want to add some extra frames of projectile only intangibility to rolls and spot dodging, giving extra safety against these keep out tactics. I'd assume its only fair if they're going to play from safety, we could increase some of the safety against them without having to rework most of the mechanics. Closing the gap is easier but B button heros dont have to give up their options

@_CNT_ 3 жыл бұрын

1:34 Shotos with a Kazuya image? Oh boy this is gonna be controversial

@MrMockRock 3 жыл бұрын

Narrator: "It was."

@namepending5620 3 жыл бұрын

Had a physical reaction when I saw it

@avocado9466 3 жыл бұрын

It's always satisfying to win against a extremely coward ness link snake samus simon and richter etc. I dont hate zoners i hate spammers

@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 3 жыл бұрын

I play Dark Pit and while I know my neutral b is one of my strongest tools, I also have learned that if I rely on it too heavily, people just get around my habits and I'll lose. Projectiles that are well designed should be good, maybe even a bit spammable, but not indisputable. You should be able to approach against them if you have enough skill, regardless of how good the opponent is, if they only use the one move. It should never be as easy as one move, but I guess some characters didnt get the memo

@Henry-mp3kf 3 жыл бұрын

True, I was playing against the campiest banjo player ever today. They just spammed projectiles and ran away for 5 minutes. We ended up going to sudden death and I barely beat him, but it felt great.

@imperiallarch7610 3 жыл бұрын

Zoning in Smash necessarily involves spamming because even heavy projectile characters like Samus and the Belmonts only have like three projectiles to choose from. The Belmonts in particular also auto-lose if you get inside their optimum range, so trying to keep you at or beyond their whip sweetspot is their only winning gameplan.

@avocado9466 3 жыл бұрын

@@imperiallarch7610 yeah but what im talking about is that for example a samus just spams down b charge shot and side b and doesnt aproach with dash attack grab or f-air even if samus has the necessary tools for appoaching

@avocado9466 3 жыл бұрын

@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 i sincerely respect pit mains i actually main bayonetta pit and palutena and yeah but there are a lot of character who can spam without getting catched like samus she can avoid punishes by using down b evrytime she charges neutral b or link who can use bumerang before spamming arrow for it to hit you when you try to approach to him

@TheActMan 3 жыл бұрын

Such an underrated channel. I'm looking for Smash KZfaqrs to play with. Hit me up on Twitter or something if you see this!

@RIP2UALL 2 жыл бұрын

It's the man that acts!

@mrgreenboy644 3 жыл бұрын

"I don't need my Smash Meter anymore!" *Burns meter on the opponent at 0%*

@chairasian8816 3 жыл бұрын

THAT INTRO! Great timing with all the character attacks, and the claw animation? SLICK

@cowspawnerthecringeworthy7815 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for making this video now I can send the link to anyone I lose against who also plays a zoner

@JacobPDeIiNoNi 2 жыл бұрын

There's a chance you won't need to send them the link They're already playing it

@sebastianp2253 3 жыл бұрын

Honestly at this point in smash, dunking on zoners is a victimless crime like punching someone in the dark

@entropy04 3 жыл бұрын

As a Robin main, understandable have a nice day

@what_did_you_expect 3 жыл бұрын

As a Belmont main, fair enough.

@austinsharrett9073 3 жыл бұрын

As a Ridley main, I really don't see the problem with zoners.

@what_did_you_expect 3 жыл бұрын

@@austinsharrett9073 Not a lot of people find the fun to play against, that's really all there is to it.

@colton.421 2 жыл бұрын

@@austinsharrett9073 I think the issue with zoners is a lot of them go hand in hand with the camping play style. We can all agree we dislike playing against campers

@ankydarkness 2 жыл бұрын

Something Charles said has really stuck with me. Projectile characters skill check the opponent while execution characters skill check yourself. I don't like relying on how good or bad my opponent is to win. If I'm the better player I want to win. Not because Tommy Jones over there didn't know the counterplay to Samus' charge shot. This has been my TED talk on why I don't play zoners.

@MasterKnightDH 2 жыл бұрын

To be fair, consistency is supposed to be a factor. That said, projectiles being too powerful without due cause just makes attempts at improvement nothing but frustration because there's no point to it when people will keep spamming projectiles at ALL levels of play and not get punished enough for it. Seriously, Kid Icarus Uprising had ideas for checking projectile spam. Why didn't Smash Bros. in general take notes?

@yungmuney5903 2 жыл бұрын

That is not even remotely how zoners work but go on lol.

@ankydarkness 2 жыл бұрын

@@yungmuney5903 Care to explain to the class then? I'm listening.

@OldManHan 3 жыл бұрын

Funny, I was actually really glad to see this video, especially since I’ve made a really similar zoner solution to something you brought up in here. You mentioned moves that ignore projectiles, and how it would be interesting to see. I make character movesets in my spare time, and one of my characters actually had full projectile armor while walking or standing, and several of her moves, like dash attack, also had projectile armor. She used to have the armor 100% of the time, but it was a bit broken since she could just rush down no matter what and never ever have to approach.

@SolracDude 3 жыл бұрын

I kinda feel bad for how much I like zoners. I just think they're neat. Being able to call people out and get the punish from a large distance is really satisfying to me, and controlling space almost always ends up being my go to strategy no matter who I play. But of course I know people hate it, and people don't tend to want to play with me if I make them mad, so picking up some rushdown characters like Roy or Captain Falcon kinda becomes a bit of a necessity. Lucky for me they're also fun.

@benjaminratthe9904 2 жыл бұрын

"call people out" sure

@nealmiller7849 Ай бұрын

Zoners are fun in most fighting games, smash is a bit of an outlier with how many character just can't deal with a competent zoner player.

@shirshobanerjee7751 3 жыл бұрын

What about the fact that in ultimate, most get off me tools are also kill moves, and most zoners already have no trouble killing?

@ken7007 3 жыл бұрын

We don't talk about those don't forget Samus can platform mix you if she's miss her frame 6 get off me /kill move or charge shot doing hella % that she can combo from & charged to grab mix. This shit show of a Frankenstein competitive game will never be balance

@RougeMephilesClone 3 жыл бұрын

Great video. I appreciate the inclusion of Pokken Tournament footage. Also glad I caught the announcement of the second channel.

@McClappin1 3 жыл бұрын

Really interesting video, and probably your one of your better archetype videos. I really like this series it’s super informative and educational keep it up 👍

@syweb2 2 жыл бұрын

Zoners: "Good lord, what is happening in there?" Ganon: "My anti-projectile options?" Zoners: "Your... Your anti-projectile options? At this time of year, at this time of day, in this match, localized _entirely_ within your moveset?" Ganon: "Yes!" Zoners: "May we see them?" Ganon: "...No." Falcon: "Ganon, we're losing the match!" Ganon: "No, Falcon, it's just my neutral game."

@givecamichips 2 жыл бұрын

Robin and to a lesser extent Hero are a nice little sub-archetype of zoners that are incentivized to zone by getting a boost to their approach options (Robin’s Levin Sword and Hero’s buffing spells), and in turn incentivized to approach by using up their zoning resources (Book charge and MP respectively). Hero is especially interesting because his buffs directly use his zoning resource, and directly gains the resources back by attacking while Robin just does it because they are bottom 3 worst runners in the game, and their only killing spell, Thoron, uses more than half of their Thunder tome which is the most important utility tome in their kit. But Hero is a weaker example because of the powerful melee spells he has (Flame Slash, Thwack, Zap, etc.) that let him get in without prepping. Basically, Robin is a resource management zoner, and Hero is a resource management jack-of-all-trades with strong zoning capabilities. Robin is also the rare Ultimate zoner that actually has no strong close-range options for a significant chunk of the game. Levin sword nair is a quick, strong option but it can only be used about 8 times before they lose it, not mentioning the other Levin sword attacks they will use. Bronze sword nair is much smaller and has much less reward.

@QuilledQilin 3 жыл бұрын

That clip at 10:04 had me rolling cause of how true it is when fighting Chandy. I’m so glad people remember Pokken.

@shadowsabre118 3 жыл бұрын

I main big bodies in Smash, so when I get matched up with a zoner, I do the homer fade into the bush and just move on to the next match. Great analysis, though. Gives lots of food for thought for those who struggle with the archetype.

@TheTrueBrawler 2 жыл бұрын

@A B If you're playing a heavy, your matchup against a zoner is going to be one of the toughest uphill battles that exist in Smash Ultimate. Due to your horrendous mobility, you already struggle to get in on their opponent even against opponents not playing a zoner. Navigating yourself into position against even reasonably strong resistance is an absolute nightmare, and unless you're one of the lucky few heavies that has been gifted with a way to mitigate projectile camping, attempting to do so is par for the course. When you do manage get in on your opponent, you also need to worry about your slow start-up moves. It makes it difficult for you to land a hit without a hard read, and the same flaw also gives the zoners that legitimately struggle under close range pressure an actual fighting chance against you at close range. Even if you manage to land the hit against a zoner, you will be able to land only one or two, maybe three, hits before sending them into a disadvantage state, and you don't really excel at keeping your opponent in that state. Your reward for winning an interaction is significantly lower than that of a faster character, who, mind you, will most likely have an easier time getting in and landing a hit once they get in. A lot of this is a problem with heavies as an archetype instead of zoners as an archetype, but it is still a problem, and as someone who played heavies in Smash before switching to what many consider to by the the dark side, being told to "learn the matchup" is comparable to being told to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps". An already difficult task due to the heavy fighter's poor mobility and frame data is made to be as close to impossible as a matchup can feasibly get due to the zoner fighter's strong tools at both far and close range as well as the heavy fighter's lack of interesting tools to engage with the zoner's far range behavior.

@DiegoG2004 3 жыл бұрын

10:09 That's a very dead Chandelure, unless the Empoleon drops it and tries to grab. Then he'll get Overheat in the face

@jakesimpson3373 3 жыл бұрын

That Justin Wong clip is legendary

@ReallyNotSomeone 2 жыл бұрын

Kirby, being a brawler has a frame 23 up b oos while Samus, a zoner, had a frame 4 up b oos

@AshenDemon 2 жыл бұрын

Sakurai: Hmm...yes this is totally fine.

@MrWin-pj4sg 2 жыл бұрын

One of the reasons I love Young Link isn't because of his projectile zone game, but because his combo game is insanely satisfying.

@Sawcybui 2 жыл бұрын

Same!

@EpicOdysseus 3 жыл бұрын

A big thing not mentioned in this video is how much damage projectiles do in 1v1. Projectiles are still subject to the increased damage from that, so things like a Wolf laser do close to 10%. It's a perfectly valid gameplan to zone the whole time and rack up damage fairly quickly, then go in for your kill. Compare this to a game like Project M where a Wolf laser does something like 3%. It's not nearly as viable to try to stay away the whole game throwing things when the damage isn't that great. Projectiles in that game are more used to *execute* your gameplan, ie create a path in to start your punish, or force your opponent to approach a certain way and then react, as opposed to *being* the gameplan.

@MasterKnightDH 3 жыл бұрын

The increased damage even marginalizes the damage reduction by Stale Moves because the damage gets done anyway. But yeah, just increasing the damage so much in 1V1s does indeed aggravate projectiles because they get too much reliability that way.

@Brawltendo 2 жыл бұрын

Yeah honestly I think the 1v1 damage multiplier was a bad design decision, and a pretty cheap way to artificially speed up matches (at times it actually does the opposite since some characters can’t find kills at higher percents). It also makes people less encouraged to approach when they know there’s a possibility that they could be eating like 20% from one attack, and even more off of whatever it’ll likely combo into. Then you also factor rage into it and the damage output gets even more ridiculous.

@MasterKnightDH 2 жыл бұрын

@@Brawltendo Yes, thank you. Things like combos are even already why I would advocate Kid Icarus Uprising's Power system, as my comment thread would display, just so we can have videos like "Tankscraper tearing down Spamtracks" in a more refined and consistent state. The 1v1 damage multiplier magnifying the damage of the lighter hits by so much is just the poop icing on the turd cake. The multiplier's existence is owed to how people are FAR more capable of kiting than they would be in a chaotic situation. Yet the problem is that power-focused attacks are the bigger victim of the sudden open space. It's that simple. You would expect that a 5th attempt at a formula would realize to more actively disincentivize surplus kiting. What we got is a failure to realize that a normally 30% damage blow dealing 36% doesn't even matter as much as normally 5% damage attacks each dealing 6% even if we ignore the obvious counterbalancing factors. Want to know what makes this even more teeth-gnashing? Well, remember how in Smash 4's All Star Mode that the enemy projectiles' power was sickeningly inflated, due to how the programming with as much was shoddy? If projectiles are benefiting from the multiplier here, that just means that Sakurai WANTS the projectile abuse in 1V1s, because having the projectiles affected and benefiting as a result would require deliberate programming. Really, it's definitely a problem that does warrant calling out the whole concept of zoning.

@Brawltendo 2 жыл бұрын

@@MasterKnightDH All these multipliers have really over complicated the core game mechanics. They’ve slapped so many on at this point and none of them have fixed the issues they introduced with Smash 4’s combo system (and adding more won’t solve it either). We already had staling from the beginning which they completely revamped in Melee, broke in Brawl and added a freshness bonus, and then somewhat reverted in Smash 4 but by adding even more factors into the formula (instead of just like, you know, simplifying the system lol), and they added more in Ult. Then they went and added rage, now we have the 1v1 multiplier and also the short hop multiplier, and probably some others I’m forgetting. Then on top of that they broke the delicate balance of a good combo system by lowering the effectiveness of DI and SDI, and then designed characters around having very specific combo routes that depend only on certain moves. Designing a good platform fighter combo system relies on making a combo interactive for both parties involved. What we have now is not that. The current mechanics make combos either incredibly one sided towards the attacker because DI is so bad, or one sided towards the defender because of things like hitstun canceling and the way directional air dodges work in Ult. Ironically these changes ended up making combos more complex for beginners to execute since they have tighter windows and are also so dependent on stuff like weight, character size, and percentage on top of the myriad of multipliers in the knockback formula that they just keep stacking. I can understand the multipliers they’ve added in order to easily fine tune specific moves without having to make move-specific code, that’s perfectly fine from a development perspective, but everything else just seems like band aid fixes to much bigger problems in the game design. They’re at the very least _aware_ that the problems exist, or else these “fixes” wouldn’t be implemented, but it just seems like they don’t actually know the true root of these issues.

@muhammadnour283 3 жыл бұрын

My answer to most zoners if I feel like my falcon will struggle against them is to play Yoshi, get a stock or percent lead, run away. It’s just barely less boring to run away the whole match then to be sent to losers bracket because I have try to play around projectiles when the game feels like it’s being played underwater.

@Galiaverse 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, that's some fine online netcode! (Looks away from Strive and looks at Smash Ultimate) WHY DOESN'T SMASH LOOK LIKE THAT!?!?! 26:16 Hey, I'm not the only one to have thought this. If Rollback Netcode supporting 8-player Items High Smash is too ambitious, then by all means implement it just for 2-player No Items Smash. Or if possible, 4-player No Items Smash. Casual players will continue to play either way (and often with their garbage Wi-Fi connections), competitive players can finally have decent online conditions, and anybody (me) who can enjoy both environments will likely understand why things are as such. We just need Nintendo/Sora/Sakurai to stop being stubborn and take some much needed steps into the present.

@keithsimpson2685 2 жыл бұрын

KOF solved "fireball too good" years ago by making them give your opponent more meter than you, giving everyone roll through generic options, and making it so up closer you can super cancel for more reward on many of them. Also the various jump arcs let you beat/bait the anti air that enforces fireballs.