Why aren't you saying what that lesser quality brand is? I think others and myself would like to avoid going through what could be a life altering crash if possible.

Yea what lesser brand is this? Oem hubs on low spec bikes?

Please state what brand of hub wrecked you.

He didn't state what brand maybe he just made it up

@@GhettoSuguru bruh people don't lie on the internet, especially KZfaq comments ... What's wrong with you?? 🙃

They're phenomenal! A great option, no matter what type of riding you do. - Dan at Fanatik

Agreed. It's not generally much of an issue, but it comes into play here and there. Mostly I just wanted to talk about how these hubs work, which I think is pretty cool. Cheers - Dan at Fanatik

Cheers, glad you're digging them!

Thicker grease will reduce the ratchets longevity. You need a thin coat of "DT Swiss Special Grease" (red version for ratchets) for maximum engagement and longevity.

Always use manufacturer's recommended driver lubes no matter what hub OR be willing to pay the price! Use the wrong or too heavy a lube and it may start freewheeling in both directions! Too thin a lube and it won't last. Walking sucks! Waiting for parts/service might be even worse. Take care of your junk! Properly! NOTHING lasts forever!

@@rollinrat4850 the rat has spoken

Agreed. Black get old.

they sell decals, but yeah ... they should do matte black w purple and black with orange. Maybe an exclusive Halloween edition. I've been pitching that to CK and i9 for 2 years and they've both said they have something similar coming, but so far nothing. I wonder if it's cause current supply issues. I'm not a huge i9 fan, but people would seriously lose their shit if they made a matte black with a shiny purple logo.

I've bought two XM1700 wheelsets specifically for the OEM 350 spline hubs that are silver in the center.

It absolutely does differ from bike to bike, thanks for pointing that out! - Dan at Fanatik

This pedal kickback explanation was over simplified to make a marketing argument, IMO. When you are in a small rear cog and/or your rear wheel is spinning fast (both typical for DH) pedal kickback quickly becomes a non issue.

@@brandydog47 The argument that when your wheel is spinning at most realistic riding speeds pedal kickback wouldn't come into play is sound, but there are plenty of braking situations where the wheel is completely locked up. I just saw a good example of that in this video, figured I'd share: kzfaq.infoUgkxIcU0AGk-ip6fXizpyGox06ToMkioeAtv - Dan at Fanatik

Thanks! - Dan and Doug and the rest of us at Fanatik

Thicker grease will reduce the ratchets longevity. You need a thin coat of "DT Swiss Special Grease" (red version for ratchets) for maximum engagement and longevity.

They are so simple, it's an awesome design. And yea, bombproof is right! -Dan at Fanatik

Agreed. Bit of a stain on their otherwise stellar reputation. Cheers - Dan at Fanatik

@@FanatikBikeCo What are the odds of getting an older version if you buy now or going forward? Anyway to tell which version you have?

Love loud hubs ... BUT I like em less and less. Still like em, but I guess the novelty of it wore off a bit, and one thing that might eventually get me to go with Onyx is sometimes I'm trying to hear other parts of my bike for whatever reason, and they make that kinda difficult. Heard nothing but good things about em though. Right now I got 350s on the DH and CKs on the trail bike ... Been eyeing Unions and might try Onyx with em, we'll see what the Christmas bonus looks like though! What did you have before the Onyx? And do you know how they are with durability, reliability and serviceability?

Good point on the audibility of tire traction. It's a good signalling so to become more aware of body positioning on the bike during engagement.

@@topspot4834 My Intense has Chris King hubs (they are loud) and riders come up to me and say your hubs sound so awesome. My response is always "Yeah that sound gets old after a while". My Evil has the silent Onyx hubs.

@@believe8263 That's funny, nobody's ever mentioned my King hubs. My King hubs stay quiet when I simply flush out and lube the driver more often. When they get a bit noisier, that's when I overhaul 'em. I use the CK ring drive lube. You can experiment with different lubes to make them louder or quieter. Its a very quick & simple process requiring simple tools. It takes 15 minutes at the most. My King hubs all purr nice and quiet until I'm coasting over 20mph. All that said, I'm a long time fixed gear mtb and road rider, as well as a singlespeeder. So I don't coast on any of my bikes very often. My habit is to pedal always if my pedals aren't going to bang into the rocks and logs. I think this shows the laughable thing about riders and their demand of noisy hubs, high POE, spin tests etc....Coasting on your bike will NEVER get you very far. Unless you're riding at a ski resort or shuttling, you're going to need to PEDAL for much more time than you ever coast. POE only makes a real difference when you're ratcheting the pedals thru techy sections and rock gardens, trials style. I also ride several much more affordable pawl type hubs like Shimano's and Campagnolo. They work just fine and last a long time as well. But ONLY when you overhaul and MAINTAIN them often!! I bought CK stuff for the ultra high bearing quality and sealing ability. Nobody else on earth makes hubs with bearings that last virtually a lifetime! Nobody else even makes their own bearings! CK even produces their own balls! I don't believe anyone makes a stronger driver than CK either. CK drivers grip tighter the harder you pedal, until the hub shell bursts that is! In the way a CK driver engages, you could call this a 'circumference' of engagement, rather than mere points of engagement. I think CK claims their driver can withstand 600 horsepower. 300 hp would be insanely strong considering a strong human puts out less than 1hp. Im a retired aerospace and medical device machinist. I watched a mechanic at a shop completely disassemble a CK hub to the bare shell while I observed. I was very impressed and I bought it on the spot. Chris King was also a medical device machinist before. It really shows. I'm very familiar with this kind of quality. There is no higher quality than medical or aerospace manufacturing because human life is critical. Everything is documented and traceable. Ive built this sort of quality myself. That hub is now 27 years old. I bought it not long after they started making hubs. I had his headset for about 10 years before. I'd already seen the bearings. Ive never replaced a single part in my first hub! Well over 100000 miles on it. Ive bought three more sets of CK hubs used, some quite ignored and contaminated. I was able to flush out and restore them all of them to good working order. I think this shows the high quality as well. You don't even 'need' to buy them new! Even then, I think CK's high price new is well justified when they last as long as they do. What would be a better value? I overhaul my CK hubs less than once a year and they rarely ever really need it! Ive also a run a wheel building/repair business for 30 years. I have overhauled lots of blingy, fancy, overpriced, so called high end hubs. I know that lots of these could use much better machining, inspection and quality standards. Ive measured their tolerances and many failed according to manufacturing industry bearing standards. These are published engineering standards available to anyone who looks. They are not cheap standards to apply! For this kinda money, that folks pay for blingy junk, I think that's unacceptable.

Ive ridden the hell out of decades old XT and XTR and Dura Ace QR hubs. Even older Campagnolo Records. They're wonderful, very smooth and fast, very quiet and reliable as long as you overhaul them regularly. Let the bearings get gritty or ride with cones mis-adjusted and they WILL die quickly. Far too many riders IGNORE their bearings! I repair lots. LEARN how to use cone wrenches, how to flush and relube cassette bodies and make perfect adjustment. NOTHING lasts forever! Shimano makes the best valued hubs on the market. I don't know much about the new microspline hubs. My old ones haven't worn out yet!

Cheers! - Dan P.

Cheers! That's good to hear, and have fun experimenting! - Dan at Fanatik

On my Ripmo AF I bought with the stock ibis branded hubs and wheels, then I upgraded to bontrager line elite 30 carbon rims with the Bontrager rapid drive 108 hub and noticed the better engagement right away and would go back to the stock 3 pawl hub ever.

@@tonykasunic1 So, do I understand correctly, that you like the ~ 3° engagement and don't notice much of a pedal kickback?

Did you ever service them? Lots of riders ignore their hubs and bearings until it's too late. As a mechanic I KNOW, nothing lasts forever. Ive seen one DT star ratchet break under a strong road racer but the hub was seriously abused and neglected over many years. I seen many 'lesser hubs' destroyed by ignorance and misuse. Like my Hell's Angel neighbor used to say: "You gotta take care of yer shit!"

Good catch!

They did that primarily for weight savings. Your reasoning makes sense to me! We don't have many size options left, but I've got small and extra small shirts left. We're working on getting new ones. www.fanatikbike.com/products/fanatik-logo-tee-1 Cheers - Dan at Fanatik

That's a great reason to go with a high engagement hub, I know exactly what you mean! - Dan at Fanatik

Thanks Paul, I appreciate hearing that! We will absolutely take your advice into consideration for upcoming videos! I think in between is just fine! At the end of the day, you get used to what you're on, and for engagement in particular, it doesn't make a massive difference for most of us! - Dan at Fanatik

some people notice it, some dont. theres a reason most pro enduro/downhill racers are running o-chains.

Ahh good call, that makes sense. - Dan P.

Straight pull spokes are less commonly available in shops. You might wait awhile to order a single spoke for a repair. Most good shops have dozens if not a hundred j bend spokes lengths/types on hand or can cut to order. If you're ever traveling far away or on a big riding trip, this is a big issue. If you ever change to different rims, spoke calculations are much more difficult on straight pull hubs. Often very frustrating and a waste of my time. Ive built custom wheels as a small business for 30 years. I almost refuse to use straight pull spokes. My wheels very rarely break spokes because of careful design and attention to the smallest detail. J bend are so common everywhere and they're plenty strong and well proven over decades. Besides, vanity is just dumb when prioritized above function. Also, ALWAYS use brass nipples. Alloy doesn't save much weight! Brass lasts way longer and can't be compromised by leaked Stan's sealant! Ive seen entire wheels destroyed by the ammonia in Stan's more than once! DONT use Stan's except in a pinch!!

Absolutely! The DT hubs are still not very loud, relative to the Hope Pro4, for example. - Dan at Fanatik

It is a fun thing to be able to do yourself. Good on ya for figuring it out! - Dan P.

Just the 240 I think. The 350 has not EXP.

I think it's a great demonstration of what pedal kickback is-it very clearly shows this phenomenon's effect, although it does, as you point out, control for some real world variables. DT's own public assessment (their full explanation in the link following), is that "if the angular speed of the hub is higher than the speed of the freehub body generated by the chain tension, there will be no pedal kickback or negative influence on your suspension. But it is not easy to reach this critical speed, because the faster you ride, the higher the possibility of harder compressions and the faster the freehub body speed reached by the chain." - DT Swiss (www.dtswiss.com/en/wheels/wheels-technology/engagement-angle-technology ) There's a very in depth assessment of pedal kickback, suggested by commenter Shanerr J and produced by Trail POV , here - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jq2ojL1qt86WpGg.html Steve at Vorsprung also has a great video that further elaborates on some real-world scenarios involving pedal kickback, here - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ndh-iMqmla6diXU.html As I mentioned in the video, I personally do not find the effects of high or low engagement hubs to really change much in how I ride or how much fun I have when I'm riding. The only place I find kickback to be a bore is when I'm riding scree lines, in which my rear wheel is locked almost the entire time. In those instances I often have to pedal backwards to re-clock my cranks and get them parallel to the ground again part of the way through the run. This is a very niche type of riding/situation though. I do have a number of friends and coworkers who complain about pedal kickback, and they describe it in high speed, steep situations where they are heavy on the rear brake and where the wheel does in fact stop moving from time to time while still encountering harsh obstacles at high moving speeds. I am not knowledgeable enough to figure out whether a 36t engagement hub work better for them/their bike/their riding than an infinite engagement one, but I don't profess to be. I am a fairly trusting individual, and am inclined to trust the bright minds at DT Swiss. If they say that this comes in to play in mountain biking in some circumstance, I'd like to think they aren't fabricating it for marketing purposes. Thanks for bringing up some good debate, and thanks for watching! Cheers - Dan at Fanatik

I used to race XC in the 90s and I was still using a Suntour freewheel instead of a free hub; and I never had any idea how many points of engagement those freewheels had. I was still damn fast. The fact is it didn’t matter.

@@FanatikBikeCo The Trail Pov video is good, it describes the math involved when looking at a static system for the majority of the video, then at the end when it introduces speed into the equation it says the same thing I did, that the suspension rarely moves fast and far enough when going a low enough forward wheel speed for kickback to happen. The Vorsprung video says basically the same thing towards the end as well. The DT link doesn't work, but "I'm inclined to trust the bright minds at DT Swiss" is kind of an appeal to authority. An authority that's trying to sell their hubs now with this new angle that they're better against the kickback boogeyman than competing high end hubs? I like DT hubs, they don't have to "engage" in this desperate marketing to sell a few more hubs. I don't even care about high or instant engagement hubs, I just think it's silly to show a bike dropping on the floor and imply that that's a problem that's happening when you ride, and here's the solution to this problem that you can buy from us. Then when you site your sources that dive beyond the static bike drop, they arrive at the conclusion that this isn't a problem at all for the overwhelming majority of riding scenarios. That's cool that your friends and coworkers are riding down steep, fast trails with the rear wheel locked up, and it's gnarly enough that it's kicking their pedals back enough to complain to you about. I would love to see video of that.

@@keirfarnum6811 Amen.

Oh, and I fixed the link to the DT website. It was trying to use the parenthesis at the end as part of the URL. I'll put it here as well: www.dtswiss.com/en/wheels/wheels-technology/engagement-angle-technology

The center lock version uses a different hubshell so it’s not possible to covert it.

Correct, you can only go the other direction. Out of curiosity, why? 6-bolt rotors are so much more readily available and require only a multi-tool to remove? - Dan at Fanatik

@@FanatikBikeCo It’s predominantly cosmetic, I prefer the centre lock looking Shimano rotors

Actually, a 350 (271 grams) is lighter than a Hope Pro 4 (304 grams). Not a massive difference though, and they're both phenomenal hubs! We actually weigh all the components on our site (and list it on the product page) so that we can get a weight estimate for the Custom Bike Builder Thanks, I'm glad you liked it! - Dan at Fanatik

Replacing the entire hub is hard, because you have to rebuild the whole wheel, which would likely require new spokes. I recommend upgrading your 370 to the ratchet system (or if you already have that, maybe a higher engagement set of ratchets if that's what you're looking for). Here is DT's video on moving that hub from a 3-pawl system to the ratchet system. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/iMx2dc99072ao5s.html

Thank you kindly....

A limited edition DT 240 EXP! Pretty slick 😉. They are no longer available, unfortunately. Cheers - Dan at Fanatik

Very true.

I’m a madman and ride full rigid (Jones Plus), do I disregard all the physics and just buy the expensive as hell Onyx? I’m wondering if they are as trouble-free as DT Swiss. Been riding a Hope Pro 2 on original bearings for 7 years no problem though. Dan at Fanatik please just tell me what to do for my next Jones. Ripping it up in Oly, WA and smirking at all these overbiked FS fools here in the meantime

@@greenyankee Do it! Onyx all the way on a hardtail. The added weight is a non-issue as far as rear-suspension performance. On full suspension bikes, additional un-sprung weight on the back-end (anything on the swingarm, including the rear wheel), has a negative effect on your suspension. For your hardtail, doesn't matter!

Man, the 350? That's a bummer to hear. Historically they have been phenomenal. Glad the shop is able to get you sorted. - Dan at Fanatik

100

Wouldn’t pedal kickback engage the sprags in the same way as pedaling? I would think so! Try compressing your rear suspension and see if the pedals don’t turn.

I'm not able to find out what those rims are in the aftermarket, sorry. - Dan at Fanatik

Use Dumonde Tech freehub grease over the oil. It makes the hubs way quieter

They have their new Hybrid series designed for E Bikes in the 350 which gets beefed up internals and hubshell. They also use 2.34mm spokes.

I have Industry Nine Hydra on all three of my bikes right now! They are great hubs, and I don't plan on replacing them anytime soon. I just think DT's Ratchet design is the coolest thing. It's so simple, I love it! - Dan at Fanatik

@@FanatikBikeCo I can agree with you there. They are a great, reliable hub that can be serviced everywhere, even though they won’t need to be serviced often!

Hahaha, that's a fun idea. I think it practice it would be way too complicated for something that in reality is not much of a big deal. Cheers - Dan at Fanatik

36 teeth, unless you get the upgraded one, which has 54 teeth. - Dan at Fanatik

They have addressed those. If you're having issues with yours, get in touch with the retailer you purchased it from, they'll replace the affected internal components. Here's how to know if yours is affected: www.dtswiss.com/en/ratchet-exp-maintenance-notice Cheers - Dan at Fanatik

@@FanatikBikeCo Thanks for sharing that. I don’t have a 240 exp because of this issue, I ordered a wheel set last week and just went for something else. My brother has a wheel set he got this year with 240s. Over the past month he’s had disengagement issues, it ruins rides and he’s had to walk his bike a few times. This issue wasn’t that well publicised. It’s summer and some people will be missing out waiting for replacements or trying to work out what the issue is.

@@satchelofdoom1564 Bummer, that stinks. DT definitely could have handled it better. Hopefully he's able to get it resolved quickly and get out riding again. - Dan P.

Ive seen strong racers break DT star ratchets when their hubs were neglected. In failing, I mean the ratchets cracked. Broke into pieces! Ive never seen the driver fail in an abused/ neglected Chris King hub. Due to their design, it's practically impossible! DT is much more common though and we service them much more often. DT350 is our go to for 'reasonably priced' custom wheel builds. That said, I still ride a 30 year old DT Hugi hub as well as several well aged Kings. They're both quite nice hubs, I'll recommend them to my customers. I build and repair lots of wheels. Kings are the best hubs on the planet though. Hands down. Ive never needed to replace a bearing after over 100000 miles!

There truly are suckers born every minute! This is a marketing rule and they know it as a fact! Just IGNORE marketing bullshit. It's truly no better than propaganda, brainwashing or fake news. Marketing BS' entire purpose is to separate you from your money. I have marketing experts in my family. Think and learn FOR YOURSELF! Seek fact and truth. Spend your money wisely!

@@rollinrat4850 the rat has spoken

No doubt a super reliable hub. There is a reason its gone largely unchanged for so many years!

Agree awesome reviews good work as always, the voice does throw me off though, it’s ok 👌 keep them coming

I wanted to watch the review but couldn't do it because of the voice.

@@ark8tct lol Like Mo from “Mo and Hannah” youtube channel Not sure if Mo knows his “inside voice”

Hi Tim, glad you found the review informative. I get comments like yours pretty frequently about my voice. I've racked my brain on it, and tried plenty different things to reduce how scratchy it is (lozenges, cigarettes, the trick where you try and hold as many grapes in your mouth as possible while doing the A-B-C's) and nothing has changed it. Just the way it is. Regardless, thanks for watching - Dan at Fanatik

@@ark8tct Hahaha, thanks ARK, I definitely do not. I also did not try using cigarettes to try and change it ;) Glad you enjoy the videos, and thanks for chiming in! - Dan P

It is easily swapped out (although not as easily as the 350, you do need a tool). - Dan at Fanatik

They can be replaced fairly easily, although you do need a tool that your local bike shop likely has. - Dan at Fanatik

🤯😂