same here ahah !

Same here!!

Same, but 3 years for me, and I have actively searched for videos with these keywords

Same, and the first I looked for riding tutorial videos was in 2011.

what method did u use prior?

That's great Gary 20 Seconds!

Our channel/videos are specifically for riding on circuit/tracks (Trackday rider training in title)

Motovudu I understand that, and I’ve been riding both road, dirt, and track for almost 30 years starting quite young. I have two track bikes set up specifically for track days only here (in Australia), I was simply stating to other less experienced riders that you can take these lessons and skills and apply them to the road to be a safer and faster rider

It's corner dependent. As Crafar suggested, hairpins you would trail brake hard all the way to the apex and bang on the throttle. But a long corner you would get most of your hard braking done before half lean angle and then mostly engine braking while max lean angle to the apex.

I think the difference is also in the skill level rider Simon is presenting to. This technique is for someone braking and downshifting very late. It relys on significant engine braking while turning. Most people who are trail braking to the apex wouldn't have enough speed in their current gear, to actually have significant enough engine braking in their set gear. Idk maybe not, but that is my assumption

@@Ganaedwards1990 I think the same. Applying this technic requires some serious speed and trust in the front tire. Which most of us dont have like Simon and great riders do.

Same

You're saving the brakes! its economical :P

Same... albeit only been riding since march 2018 but still.

One of my motivations for writing the original Motovudu book is that i don't agree with all that. Anyway, no high level rider thinks in percentages , they feel how much grip they have front and rear then use it all and at the right time. The tyre limit is constantly changing due to tyre wear and also changes when the bike balance and setup is changed (tyres, ride heights, springs, preload settings etc). The rider adjusts how much he or she uses the front or rear to suit this. Regarding the road. This is not made for the road, its made for helping people to understand how to go faster on circuit. I hope this helps clear things up a little. Kind regards Simon Crafar

Twist of the Wrist did nothing to help me. When I was a total newbie, I used to turn without throttle and it never gave me any trouble. Then I watched Twist and slid several times trying that "roll the throttle continuously throughout the turn". I have to admit it happened on the road, so I guess the advice is for track use maybe, but I'm so glad I've seen this video, turns out I was smarter when I knew nothing.

Wow, I’m an ex CSS instructor and BSB rider and I have no idea what that means…. Good job interpreting that Simon!

Gently roll on the throttle to shift weight to the back of the bike once it has its line and is tipped in, even before the apex. Coasting through corners is harder

Thanks David!

Motovudu sir. I've tried the technique and it does make my laps time faster. I just need to clarify one thing. What is the best time for me to get back on the throttle. Thank you

The best time to crack the initial throttle is an important moment and it has to be not to early or too much as then the bike will run wide. I make sure it's done super smoothly and before the speed is reduced too much. The actual moment is for the rider to decide, just enough throttle that the deceleration is very smoothly halted and it's that moment when the rider has decided that to reduce speed more would be negative

Motovudu thanks a lot sir. This is something against the hype (maintaining throttle in the corner for better traction or trail braking to get the best time). But it does help me improve my lap time. I really appreciate it

you ride around in 2nd?

HORNET6 only use 3rd on highways and maybe if the weather is really hot. I also always use earplugs.

You are welcome

The downward force on the front wheel depends on the bikes deceleration, not the source of that deceleration. It isn't the front brake that creates the downforce; it is the bike leaning forward. So, leave the front wheel to do its job without having to also do braking, and let the rear wheel decelerate the bike via the engine. You can always add some trail braking to the engine braking if you aren't getting enough, but it makes sense to me to use trail braking as a supplement to engine braking as needed. Thoughts?

I'm no expert on the technique but it sounds like Simon is saying that closed throttle cornering is faster as it lets you carry a higher corner speed through the corner as the bike is turning more efficiently. If you are trail braking in you give up lean angle as the tyres only have so much grip to give. That's probably why he says this technique isn't as suitable for hairpins and other slow corners.

@@hughiemg2 It's basically a racing technique, not anywhere near what's needed on roads, where reaction time enters the equation, and trail braking rules. He even warned about it. When you're using 100 points of lean, braking is out.

All our videos are specific to track/ circuit riding.

@@motovudu Thanks for the reply and clarification!

You sound like a trailbraking devotee that must make everything fit into the "trailbraking is the best way to corner". There is lots of footage of the best motoGP riders that are completely off the brake before they turn into the corner, dispelling your myth. And there are many corners on road and circuit such as long fast sweepers where you are gonna get lapped trying to trail brake until you are happy with your speed and line. Don't be so narrow minded it is limiting to growth and potential. Trailbraking has it's place in everyone's reportoire but it's not THE way to approach every corner.

Glad to hear we helped :-)

if you have been riding for 2 months. you are most definetly doing it wrong. This is for experienced riders who can use the maximal lean angle of the bike. But what do i know . Maybe you are already scraping knees with perfect body position?

@@cfvgd no I'm not super advanced but I'm faster than people that's been riding for a couple of years. And yes I'm already scraping my knee if needed to. But I got much to learn obviously. I'm a rookie 😊

Wow! How many World Championship podiums have you got? I've only got 13.

Lmao gotcha simon i took second in my championship won 2 races and podiumed 4 times my results may not be typical but i watched that dark art more times than i can count and read the book till my eyes hurt.btw id never even been to track till last season thanks for helping be safer and faster.

Agreed... trail braking allows you to turn tighter because the wheelbase shortens when you load the front. Maybe he's got his engine braking cranked up in the fuel map so he still benefits from this effect.

Not saying this as a know it all mate, just sharing this from what I’ve read (rather than knowledge gleaned from practice!) but I understand you should have your braking out of the way before you’re turning? Am I right?

if you want to go fast, you need to apply a trail braking technic: finish 85% of your braking before your turning marker and the remaining 15% you apply smoothly from the turning point til apex, slowly releasing your breaks right before the apex. This way your front is loaded allowing more grip and better feel. Plus as I said above, loaded front makes the bike turn easy.

Dead Mazai Simons technique seems different to this though? I’ve done California Superbike School, they don’t bother even bringing trail braking into the mix until you’ve done all four levels apparently it can cause more problems than it solves (for inexperienced riders) Id say I’m an intermediate level rider on track days and want to progress this season, I’m at a point where I need to pick out some ideas and start practicing. Trail braking gets talked about a lot, but it seems to rely a lot on feel and experience which to me, seems to leave the door wide open to a lot of errors and misjudgements - I know that’s bike riding in general, but if there’s a system thats a bit more consistent and distributes what it asks of the machine and rider more evenly perhaps that’s a better practice for me to learn now, whilst I’m forging habits?

In reality, what's happening is very similar to what people are saying about trail braking. I read/watched MVudu a few years ago and it honestly was a great learning experience. Then, with extensive road riding you eventually learn that trail braking is possible and safe, especially when you know the roads well (same for track), but not often needed or useful in most cases. The similarity is in the perception of speed when comparing road to track. On track, a good rider will be going into most corners so much quicker than on road that the braking point is a lot later. Simon is doing this in the video. The only difference with pronounced trail braking is that it's deliberate to extract the very last bit of braking just before the apex. However, is this necessary in most cases? No. Is this generally required in road riding conditions? No, not generally as there are many other factors on road than can compromise corner speed, therefore negating any real benefit from trail braking. Undoubtedly Simon is utilising the benefits of engine braking which gives the front end grip and allows a stable turn in but the emphasis in the video is on creating a good entry line and turn in. Whereas you can only really exploit (proper) trail braking by having perfect corner entry and excellent front grip. If you actually look at the clips again, you'll see that (whether the rider could have trail braked more deliberately) the hand off the throttle is always mid-corner which is the point between getting off the brakes and getting on the throttle. So we're talking about very fine margins. Both techniques work as long as you have good front end grip.

I believe pro racers are either on the brakes or on the throttle.

As the video states, it depends on the corner which technique is more effective. Tight hair pin corners, then trail braking and flowing corner the closed throttle method.

Its hard to know what level you're at without seeing you ride but from what you're saying I can relate it to other riders I work with. The scary thing for many riders is committing to a corner at speed, because entering fast is much more intimating than going slow then adding more throttle as you want. On entry you must decide when the time/track position, angle of entry and speed is right and let the brake go. That takes practice and commitment. To answer your question yes I put input into the bars to make the bike lean into the turn and then I decide when to release the front brake. The majority of turns are done in this order. I get the bike on the right trajectory while braking toward the corner then decide when to release the brake. Once I've released the brake there is less pressure on my arms and I commit my upper body to the turn holding myself on the bike with my upper leg around the tank which also holds the bike down in the turn. Yes there is a little input into the bars in turns but I try to keep it to a minimum letting the bikes geometry and tyres do the work until I need to crack the throttle....

the part i dont get is how to get it to lean more in a corner, keep countersteering until my knee is almost touching? or do i need added speed. (i do lots of twisties for now and i dont push it hard, fastest entry for me is 80kmh until i can throttle out) maybe im afraid of keep pushing the bar for countersteer in a corner? anyway thx a bunch simon youre a legend!

First of all, you can’t ride like this on the street so don’t do it and send yourself into the woods. I have experience in both - (track and street, and some woods, lol) and if you want to lean your bike like that there are two key factors. 1.) proper suspension setup and 2.) leaning your body off the bike. Bonus! - 3.) proper tire pressure. Get those in order, go to a track day, and enjoy dragging knee and turning there. On the streets, keep it to a milder version. Biggest thing is people don’t get off the bike enough with their bodies.... your legs should feel like jelly after a couple sessions holding your fat ass up on one leg in the turns, then you’re doing it right!

Yes I apply this technique to almost every type of corner but the more tight /hairpin/ stop go the turn is, the shorter the time I can use it. On the more fast flowing turns it's slower to minimise the gap between brake and gas because staying on the brake so long lowers mid turn speed and so you need the gas when you wouldn't if you'd got off the brake sooner and used the max lean grip of the front tyre and the geometry. Opposite as many think.

I have noticed after years of working with people that some love to ride bikes and just want to know what is important to do so well. Others prefer to talk about it in detail because riding fast is scary. I love to work with the first group of people. The second, I recommend to one of the other schools.

It’s allllllll about timing. Everything

As we constantly specify these videos are made for riding on track NOT the street!

@@motovudu thank you, Simon. We have some riders on a KTM street forum promoting this exercise on the street and I appreciate the clarification.

In had this problem and went around the bend up one more gear than I usually would. This decreases the amount of engine braking! Give it a try and get back to me😉

Closing the throttle does transfer weight to the front but not enough to deform a sports tyre that is correctly inflated. At an extreme level when entering a corner as fast as possible, hard on the front brake I use the engine brake to the extreme to help reduce the weight and deformation of the front tyre. The main advantage of closing the throttle is a tighter turning circle than is possible with the throttle open.

The downward force to flatten the contact patch, which is often used as the reason for trail braking, is going to happen because the bike's deceleration causes that regardless of whether the rear brake, engine, or front brake is decelerating the machine. Calculating that weight transfer would consider CG height, wheelbase, and level of deceleration; and is independent from the source of deceleration. Trail braking alone would also use up more of the tire's available grip than splitting that task between engine and front tire, or using engine alone.

no, Simon said "off throttle means off throttle. The bike never turns as well as at the moment when at full lean with closed throttle. The more you open it the wider it will run. Same is true in reverse'

@@motovudu thanks! I'll have to practice this season

Motovudu wouldn’t that be considered “coasting” through the turn?

I take care trail-braking on bumps , but if they are on line and can't be avoided I change nothing and try my best to ignore them, building up lap by lap. Constant/neutral throttle is the safest way to go over bumps, but often not the fastest (if they are in the braking or drive area for eg) .

I don't personally look at the gear indicator, I count down the changes for each corner. In other words I know this corner is down 2, the next down 1 and so on. Yes I also take a note of how the bike is reving (rpm) and engine braking to double check I'm correct. I'm glad to hear you're making progress with it. Remember, the faster you enter the more engine braking you'll need (lower gear may not be necessary at lower speeds but will be as your speed / laptime improves

@@motovudu Simon, thanks I will keep working it.

Same rules apply to any bike!

I would imagine either at the apex or the point in the corner where you are sure acceleration isn't going to compromise your final exit line to the point where you need to chop the throttle again

at the peak of the apex with the most lean you should not be on brake or gas. am i wrong ?

You could be finished with your braking and starting rolling on the throttle gently to transfer some weight back.

Jeez you must be a good rider!

Acceleration - Declaration.

He is still braking.. engine braking

Never pull the clutch in while cornering.....

@@KR4Z3D666 👍

I always select gear position while braking then get rear settled and clutch out before committing to the corner. Hope that answers the question.

It feels so controlled but im hesitating when to pick up the pace coming out. I been on track about 250 laps. On my 2.2 mile 13 turn course; At about 1:55 seconds. Been on my cbr600 for 2 summers 16,000 miles and ride hard in the valley and twistys. And track. I feel i need a suspension soft front firm rear setup bike dives to much. Dont trust myself yet to do a set up?? Oh Im 58 and in great shape. No problem with 2 solid hours non stop hardriding. Lunchbreak Break and go again. Usually 5 hard hours of riding. Using Q3 Sportmax and trying to inflate correctly during every break.

When you are changing down gear/s. I don't completely disengage the clutch just enough to change the gear and it has to be done before you release the brakes and before you are at too big of a lean angle so the back wheel doesn't step out uncontrollably. Of course none of this is necessary if you have an auto-blipper.