Well done! This is probably the biggest new bike dilemma especially w/ the modern geo trends. Im a shy 5’9”, riding 30 plus years. No longer a playful rider at 60. demoed ibis and yeti med and large. You guys are spot on. Loved the large rail and speed factor. Cornering required more input or front would push especially on large yeti. All things considered, I would have gone large on the ibis, ended up going with the Med yeti 130 LR. Can ride it all day feels like home. Good luck to all

True when you sit on the borders between two sizes. Good one, really helped me feel in ease with the sizing decision I took a few months back when I purchased my bike. Re the comfort though, probably I would recommend anyone who upsizes to consider having a spare shorter stem just incase.

This video is so good!! Such an amazingly informative video

I'm about 175cm tall. This year when i got my stumpjumper evo S4 size i thought i made a mistake, felt very long! but after 3 rides on stock components i put a 35mm stem vs the stock 50, and riser bars 40mm rise and the bike feels perfect. im still geting used to it being much more longer than my 2020 stumpjumper M size but the length is very beneficial! this summer ive been woking a lot and not being able to ride tons but ive beaten a few PR's on some of my local trails on days that i wasnt even trying to go fast or beat my PR's, and i can tell that this achivements are due to the bigger frame and geometry improvements over my other bike rather than me just being a better rider, i mean yeah i am improving but not significantly for those reults to pop up on days i didnt even feel fast or tried to be fast... so upsizing its pretty beneficial!

I sized down to a M and after 2 months now, I am very happy with my decision. My local terrain is much more technical than in your video, and I find the M much easier to “up and over” a lot of the obstacles. Some bikes are also physically huge. My M is almost a 1:1 of the previous year’s L. My body type is also the opposite of you two. Long torso with short legs.

The size up or down thing goes back and forth every few years

If the frame is too small then there's always the chance of catastrophic implosion. I bought a cube analog in a L and you guys have confirmed this decision! Hi from Australia!

Awesome insight in this thank you. At 6 ,1 riding a large and wondering about an XL for my next bike. This vid really helps

Awesome video! Why others don't cover these basics, I just don't know. Thanks guys!

THANK YOU for making this video. I'm a tall rider(6'4" or 6'5") but I have short legs so I've wondered for a while if a large would be better for me(since bikes have gotten super long reaches now). This really helped me put that thought to rest. I'll stick with XL, especially since I'm not that good of a rider and the balance point on the bike is definitely important to me.

I have felt this way forever. I’m 5’7” with a very muscular build and really prefer a L vs a M. Every bike shop always say to get the M but always feel more comfortable on the L. Every medium I get, I end up sliding the saddle all the way back and adding 10-20mm longer stem. Thanks for this video

Great vid. Im 6’5 and a large guy and ordered an xl rockhopper expert. Went into specialized and they immediately told me im an xxl. I went with the xxl. We shall see

It is simple. When the terrain gets rough and steep I'm slipping forward on the pedals if the bike is too big. This happens alread by adding 5mm stem length. Except of that it costs a lot of power to bring the weight forward and backwards all the time. Like a long board surfer who is walking from the front end to the rear of his surf board. It costs time to switch your weight.

Very well said. I noticed the same that there is much more room to maneuver on large bike vs you need to precise or you can go OTB on small bike

I am 6' and I always rode a large; my latest purchase was about a year ago. As you mentioned, with the different geometry compare to bikes of yesteryears, I do wish sometimes I got an XL bike. Definitely will consider it for my next purchase.

Thanks guys I feel better now lol I ordered 2 large custom frames from Marino after riding a M the last 8 months. Being 5’10” sucks... in between M and L in basically everything.

This is a really helpful video, thanks. I'm 5'10 and have a large ripley, I've spent way too much time worried I should have gotten the M. If I had good skills like Jeff Kendal-Weed or something, maybe, but I if I'm honest with myself I have a pretty "boring" style and am totally stoked to stay rubber side down when I ride.

Great video. I'm going back and forth between a Medium and a Large for what I'm building right now. Fortunately frame is not yet available / in production. So I have a bit of time. But wow. One week I'm thinking this, the next week I'm thinking that. Thinking of going larger as I too am a Betweenosaurus Rex (my saddle height is up where a lot of XL riders are, whereas my reach is more on par with Medium size riders). I think when you're inbetween sizes with 'normal' body proportions it's an easier decision to make. I'm thinking of going larger with a shorter (35mm) stem. Perhaps my mind will change next week? lol

I think you guys are spot on with this, and I have always thought the same thing. I am 5'8" and right there between a medium and a large, but every bike shop has always talked me out of going with a large, and insisting I get the medium, and that is what I do. But, I think my next bike will be a large. You guys gave me the confidence to stand my ground and say, nope, I want the large. Thanks for another great video.

As a 6'2" person I have always struggled with what size bike to get. Sizing by RAD (spread between the bottom bracket and handlebars) has been the best decision I've ever made and now I almost always ride Large with riser bars.

One thing not discussed (if you can’t sit on both sizes) is that if you go larger size it may have too long of a dropper travel for your normal pedaling position. I’m 5’9” and usually between a medium and a large. My first large bike, even with the post slammed, the seat was too high and I had to get a different dropper post (~$200) with less travel. Medium usually fits me with stock items. I love the playful feeling of the medium here in PA but could understand the appeal of the point and shoot of the larger frame size elsewhere. Love the content!

100 % agree always bought giant large but i went with xl n really enjoy xl n did wrong decision went back to large

Good video as always. Had the same conversation with a friend 2 days ago… i looked up Switchblade, Occam, High Tower, Ripmo measurements… the difference between L and XL seems pretty small RE: wheelbase… between .9” and 1.1” for any of those… seems pretty minor to have much of an impact on hairpins… i ride a Large Occam, 6’ tall, long legs, medium torso…. Feels like my saddle is high in the air on climbs and i drop my dropper almost all the way for most descents.. it works, but makes me wonder about if an XL would suit better. I also see the above bikes have almost identical published “reach” and “stand over” and very similar angles… but i think different brands definitely ride different!! Love my Occam… it lives up to the fun of the review you did of that bike… and i can’t help keeping an eye out for improvements. :) Thanks for another great vid.

This is still useful in 2023! I’m on the shorter side and now between XS and S. As an XC and road bike rider, reach and stack mean a lot more to me on the road, as I’ve noticed new mountain bike geo’s just getting longer!

This vid makes me feel good that I bought both my mtn bikes (Epic Evo and Tallboy) in size XL (I'm 6'2.5"). I enjoy riding both on high speed trails with just a few jumps. I do prefer a smaller size for road/gravel bikes (size 58 large feels awesome to me).

I have a Tallboy 3 and Tallboy 4. Would have sold TB3 if there wasnt a criminal racket in bike shipping cost but I was glad I hung on to her when my pivot axel cracked on TB4. Both bikes are XL. It was really shocking to me how small the TB3 felt after not riding it for 10 months. I attribute most of that to head tube angle and running the long chainstay option on the TB4.

Great insights ty

Very informative vid gents. Thanks

I’m a little under 6’-2” and had a 2018 Large Epic for about a year before I switched to a 2021 XL Epic Evo and it was the best change I have ever made. Just like they mentioned the XL has a larger sweet spot where you can move around and still feel balanced going through high speed corners. You will feel the longer wheelbase in tight twisty single track but I will take confidence at high speed over the need to toss the bike around a little more at slow speed any day.

The smaller the bike, the smaller the “sweet spot”. That really made a lot of sense to me, another boring, but happy, average rider. I’ll stick to the XL, thank you very much.

Althought it may be obvius for some people, the point you make, is very solid and logical. Everyone, as you notiecd, advice to force the smaller bike allways. I didnt do that, and got a reasonal size, and i've been mad since them if i made a misteke hehehehe

Good breakdown 🚵‍♀️🚵🏽‍♂️

I started mountain biking in 1985, and I guess I was inadvertently ahead of the game, with new bikes now having short stems, longer reach, and steeper seat angles. I always went with a bigger bike and a short stem, and back then all the bikes had longer stems. But it was mostly due to me being only 5'10" tall with legs like someone who is 6'1", and short arms and torso. On a medium frame I would have a ridiculous amount of seat tube exposed, and then the bars felt too low, so I always went with a large, put on a short stem, and moved the saddle forward. Little did I know I was creating what was closer to modern MTB geometry, with the exception of the head tube angles.

Good info but look at the trails you are riding in this video. From my perspective everything looks sort of like a wavy straight-ish line. In Northern California, we are dodging redwood trees, blown out steep sections and a lot of much tighter turns in rapid succession. I have been riding two sizes of the same bike back to back to figure what I am going to put my money down on next and I keep coming back to the smaller bike (I am right in-between sizes). Most of the people at my local shop are pointing me in the smaller direction as well. The big bike feels amazing and completely stable going 1000mph but it just doesn't fit many of the trail features that I am confronted by on the majority of my trails. If all I cared about was straight-lining stuff, I'd agree with you, but if you saw our trails, you'd probably have a more middle of the road approach.

Love the video. Love the shirt more. 😄

Im 6’1” and just got my first new mountain bike. It’s a large giant talon.. just getting into the sport so didn’t want to spend a bunch. Anyways, the folks at the store were reccomending I get an XL.. since I’m right on the edge of the two.. One thing we neglected in my height was the fact that I have a giant head. Like 2” bigger than most peoples. So really my body is more like 5”11. Which sits pretty comfortably on a large. The XL just felt HUGE and hard to maneuver. Anyways, point is, bodies are different and you gotta take everything into account, and ultimately go with the bike that feels best. Im happy with my choice!

So good! Professional video right here boys.

Super helpful video. I'd love to get some advice on the decision I'm making. I'm deciding between a Canyon Spectral 29 medium and large. I'm 5'11", leaner build with longer arms. Canyon's tool recommends medium, but their support team recommended large. Here's the interesting bit, I'm currently riding a 2001 Cannondale Jekyl in medium and haven't ridden any modern mountain bike geometry or technology, so whatever I pick will be a massive change (and improvement). Also, I ride in the southwestern US in very rocky terrain. Given that, any thoughts on which way you would lean?

Very helpful video! I finally sprung for a new full suspension (Ripley AF) but wonder if the XL I bought is too big. Im just over 6” but with very long legs, but maybe leg length doesn’t factor in as much as I thought? What height and inseam are you guys, so I can compare? Thanks for the great content! 😀

One thing you guys forgot to mention is leverage. I had a m/l frame from specialized and my first local technical black diamond trail I took it to I had a nasty crash. I bought the same bike only one size down and did the same trail clean and also had my best PR (smallest frame I’ve owned so far). There’s a reason why most pros size down and not up. Also not everyone’s trails are in the open desert, so the trails you ride dictate your riding.

I have a L 2019 instinct and I'm 6'2 and I feel a cramped and not really that comfortable on the bike over the years. Upgrading my bike in the next few weeks and it will be a XL for me. The bike is to small for me as when I'm in the attack position i tend to find my self more over the back side of the bike. Great for going down hill, not so great in the corners as if i don't correct my self it washes out my front which has happened a lot.

It's not just the sweet spot that's important, it's the seat angle too. As they get steeper, for every 1 degree you lose approximately 1cm of cockpit reach - the roominess between your seat and your handlebars. I'm looking at the new Nicolai Saturn 16 in XL and XXL, compared to my Santa Cruz Megatower in XXL. I'm 6'6' with even leg/torso length and, despite the Saturn in XL being almost identical to the Megatower in XXL, i'm thinking it'll be best to go XXL on the Saturn, as the steeper seat tube angle will push me closer to the bars. I also have an early Trail Pistol that has a steeper SA than the Megatower and I have the seat slammed as far back as it goes, run a 50mm stem and still feel cramped compared to the Megatower.

Your larger frame bikes probably do work well out west. But on the east coast where the majority of trails are tight twists and turns I had trouble with a medium 29er with long reach and long wheelbase. It was nice on the open areas but not so much for the tight twists. I am not a playful rider, i am just trying to have some fun and i think consideration must be given to the trails and where you are riding.

I’m only 5’9 and ride a 467 reach! That would be madness a few years ago but I’ll never go back it’s too nice

Interesting stuff. All bike presenters: longer, slacker, wider and larger. Bike racers: smaller bike, steeper head angle and narrower bars. Makes me wonder what’s driving the industry. I’ve personally found that being in between sizes look for the reach # that matches your body. For me, it’s usually the smaller bike that allows more control and use of body leverage.

Also depends on the style of bike. Up sizing an XC bike doesn’t make sense compared to a trail bike

Awesome video. When you guys say you on edge of L and XL generally....how tall are you. I'm just over 6 foot (not quite 6foot1). Is this similar to you or are you over 6 foot 1?

I just a tad over 6’ riding a large v4 Santa Cruz Bronson. I have had a few other bikes Trek Slash, SC Hightower and a Roscoe all in large. I did a few demos on some XL bikes, they felt a bit too big. I feel that 6’ is typically smack dab in the middle for most large bikes. It also seems that newer bikes are getting longer reach/wheelbases. For instance my large Santa Cruz is the same size as the XL was in 2019. It was the same thing for the Hightower and Slash. Bikes seem to be getting more true to size lately.

Thanks. The video makes a lot of sense... I'm on the L/XL fence about sizes for the Norco Optic. In your Optic video from a few year ago you rode a large even though Norco recommends an XL for your height. Given geometry is always going longer, slacker etc... would you buy the L or XL now? Thoughts?

I’m 6’3” and have always ridden Large for the past 20 years. But as I get older I’m less confident on squirrelly bikes. Was wondering if I needed to size up. After watching your video, I think it’s time. Thanks.

Another great video! BTW - SLC guy here. What trail is that? You are always riding trails I never have. Looks awesome.

I had a lot of concern buying a new bike that I wasn't able to demo. I'm 5'10 and ended up with a large Norco Optic based on their size charts and then talking to some folks. I think a medium would have fit but have been very happy with it but wish I could have tried out the bikes before buying just to get that nagging feeling out of the back of my head.

I’m 6’2 with long legs and a short torso. You recently reviewed x XL SB160. Did you feel that the size was right for you? Or, would the XXL have fit better based on what this vid suggests? I went XL, and have to use significant spacers and riser (35mm) bars to get grips same height as seat. I’m used to this given my body, but I did think about XXL for this reason. The wheelbase numbers made me pick XL.

I’m 5.4 without shoes, right now I have a trek 2020 marlin 6 size M with 29ers and I love it, however got to ride a friend marlin 8 size S and it was much more manageable (his was marlin 8 with 27.5 inch tires), planning to upgrade for a marlin 8 but I’m not sure if I should stay with size M or go for size small. What would you recommend?

That's just the opposite to what I've heard before. I'm right in between M and L and have a L, I like it on flowy trails but I don't like it on switchbacks. What about a large frame with a short stem and the saddle closer to the bars? would that accomplish the same as being on a medium frame?

Great . Now I´m even more confused. Great video. Im 188 cm with a 87 cm inseam and want to buy my first bike. I have tested a few bikes, but I don´t have any experience. Just one day on a Tyee in the Bike park and one Day on a YT Capra. I also tested the canyon Spectral in a parking lot and ilked it a lot. But I dont know if I should go L or XL.

Do you have any thoughts on handle bar length? I cut mine down.. quite a bit.. rides better. Fits better. Any thoughts on calculating length? 800 mm is friggin huge

What I would consider helpful in choosing a bike is: Input your height, weight, distance from floor to top of your hip-bone, distance from your middle finger-top to the bony end of your upper arm-bone, your agilty (high, moderate, clumsy)! Using this data, the youtube bicycle expert should tell you (with charts) what your frame-size and wheel diameter should be. Videos I have viewed do not come close to giving this level of help.

Good thoughts. I'm 5'10 with short legs and a long torso. I am riding a medium right now and wonder if I would feel more planted on a large. I have also had a couple of wrecks this summer that make me wonder the same thing.

One thing I’ve noticed is a smaller bike (I’m 6ft so either a smaller large or a big medium) can be more fun on my local single track where it’s either less demanding or I know the trails better while an XL or bigger large can feel better at bike parks.

In my experience, it's nearly always better to buy the largest bike that you can get a good fit on, even if you have to push the saddle all the way forward and use a 35mm stem. If you are riding a very progressive, very long Enduro bike, only then should you consider riding the smaller bike. I'm 5'8" and I wouldn't even consider riding any less than a size large bike and on Downcountry or XC bikes I would go for a size-XL bike if I can get a reasonable fit by pushing the saddle forward and putting on a short stem.

Lee McCormick is rolling over this. Surprised no comments on RAAD sizing. My personal testing at 5’9” I prefer medium over large.

From experience... go bigger when you're new to MTB or have limited experience. Truly experienced riders end up dialing their geometry numbers from stack, reach, handle bar width stem length etc.

Need to try the same test on ; trail bikes, all mountain ....not just xc bikes... your results may change.

What is your estimated reach and RAD and how does that compare to the reach and RAD of the two bikes that you are comparing. It would make the video content more informative if there was some context.

Looks a lot like Powder Mountain. Is that where you are? I have the same problem, 5’9” M or L. I think I prefer L as it just feels faster and more stable. However, I have also been riding a Trek Fuel EX in their unique ML size - nice - not sure why more folks don’t have that size.

Problem for me is seat tube length. with 1.75m (i guess 5.9") i always on the end of the range of size m. but with my inner leg length of 84cm im sitting very much on the end of the seatpost. I tried different models in size m and then to epics (normal and an evo) in L. That makes a hugh difference.

Would have been helpful with some geometry numbers on these two bikes, like how much the reach and toptube differed between them. And your height as well.

If you don't mind me asking.. I dig Zach's shirt. Where did he get it? :)

Peeps! just look for the reach measurement of the previous/current bike. I'm 6'2" barefoot with a 34" inseam riding a large Vitus Sentier 29 with a 468mm reach. For me it feels snappier and very maneuverable. Planning to buy a full squish with a 470 to 480mm reach to have a little bit more stability without compromising bike handling so yeah! reach is the go to measurement for bike fit. Happy trails....

I can ride a large frame with 29 inch wheels. But I prefer a medium with 27.5 inch wheels. I like to have a ton of control. I'm a playful rider.

Hey guys, maybe you can help me out. nice video btw. Im a 184cm tall rider with average body proportion. I want to buy a Norco Range, and im right in between L and XL acording to Norcos sizing page. Now here is my Stuggle: An XL Range would be earlier available in my local shop therefore I was about to order it, the Reach is 480 in L and 510 in XL. I thought I can handle a 510 reach since my hardtail has 510 reach aswell. But the Wheelbase on the norco is 1329 and 36mm longer than my hardtail. That really drives me off since my Hardtail already feels very long on the trails. Now Im thinking about waiting for the L. Also most other enduros the brands recommend L with around 480 reach. What would you do in my situation? due to the complicated availability are testrides in the field not possible.

Did they mention their own length and weight?

Can i ask what are yours heights please?

One thing no one is talking about is that with a longer bike you are riding more on your shoulder joints. On long days this will fatigue you when stretched out. And over the long run, it will be detrimental to your shoulder health. A shorter bike works your delts more and saves your joints. For me personally, I don't feel great stretched out especially over time. Not to mention a longer bike is not optimal for climbing because you want your weight to be more forward. Sure it's more stable on the downhills and riding fast on straights, but there is a reason that Richie Rude rides a Yeti medium when the recommended size is a large. The moral of the story is that there is no real rule to bike sizing. Ride what you feel most comfortable with.

Love that shirt 😂

How tall are you guys? I’m 6’3 with longer legs than torso. Trek’s recommendation is XL but I come from a BMX background and that bike looks so big and so heavy lol. Thanks for the video, a lot to think about!

Now, do the same video riding trails in New England.

I know height isn’t everything but it plays a part. Are you guys both ‘in between sizes’, according to ibis size charts?

I watched the video twice to make sure I didn’t miss it, but there wasn’t a single mention about how the sizing affects climbing performance. For me, living and riding in CO, and not doing lift service, 3/4 of most rides is spent climbing. Where’s the love and info for the climbers????

Everything is fine if I am between two sizes, but how advisable is it to choose a larger size, when you fit perfectly in a smaller size?

I went with a small frame with 29 tires instead of a medium frame with 27.5 tires. I think I made the right decision.

I just started riding and got a Trek Marlin 5 in ML. I'm 5'8 with a 30 inseam. The large felt better for me, the medium for me (as a beginner cyclist in general) felt sketchier. The Trek store said the ML would most likely be perfect. However once the ML got in the Trek store had to actually cut the seat tube a bit because at the lowest position I could not mount the bike. After cutting it though I feel very stable on it even as a newbie and it still feels maneuverable.

Wow I couldn’t have said it better. My first mountain bike was 1990 so man can I tell you about small. And ginormous stems with skinny scrawny bars. Man those days were, in retrospect and compared to now, not great. I mean I still had to have a 20 in bmx to get any air. Todays bikes are amazing in their ability to really do it all. But I am a complete convert to larger bikes, in particular larger front centers and reaches with relatively short chainstays. Take this geo, add 27.5 wheels to keep it playful and that is my ideal bike. Which is why I ride a Bronson. That is basically the geo of a Bronson. And at 5’10” with short legs and monkey arms and torso, I sized up to an XL: 490 mm reach, 1252 mm wheelbase, 430 mm chainstays, 150/160 travel rear/front to soak up the hits and 27.5 x 2.6 rubber to keep it fun - so she’s uber stable at high speed overly gnarly terrain, takes care of you in drops and big hits, yet still likes to pop and play and have fun and is an absolute blast to jump and climbs quite well. To dial in the fit I swapped to a 35 mm stem, some higher rise 800 mm handlebars, 170 mm cranks, and slid the saddle forward on the rails- I probably added a degree or degree and a half to the effective seattube angle. At 49 years old now I like the extra safety net that this bike gives me- it allows me to continue to ride like I want to- like a lunatic- and have that little extra there for when I botch it I dont crash, or crash as terribly; the bike takes care of me a bit. And I appreciate that- crashing is not cool anymore. And anyone who says thu can’t maneuver them either doesn’t know what they are talking about, are just talking nonsense to support what they like (smaller bikes), or doesn’t know how to corner them. Yes, you ride them a bit differently. Yes you corner them a bit differently. But the learning curve is not that bad. Hey if an old guy like me can do it who grew up without dropper posts and hanging his ass off the back of the bike pretty much all the time cause they were so damn small, then anyone can. And once you learn it they are fine. Like you said, unless you are elite, or ride like Jeff Lenosky or Ratboy or Danny Mac, the benefits of a larger bike will serve many people better than a smaller bike. Just my opinion, but people shouldn’t be afraid of change. It’s how mountain bikes got as good as the are today.

What size are these guys? Seems like obvious info to include in the vid??

But it seems like bikes are already getting longer then 1-2 years ago. Always talking about longer ,slacker ,lower. So Im not sure if I agree with that. Plus since they are slacker. A rider can easily get past their skill level. Not too mention, new riders will not be going as fast. So a slacker bike at slow speeds is going to feel slow turning that can and in some ways less fun. And whos to say going below mach speeds isn’t fun, especially for new bees. My opinion.

I agree with the sweet spot comments. I fall squarely in size L. I occasionally take out my wife’s M Bronson with a longer stem. I usually have a blast throwing her bike around and hitting jumps. However, with fast techy stuff it takes extra focus and energy to stay in the sweet spot.

I really regret that I did not watch this video before going wrong with frame size S. I was right between sizes and I chose the smaller one. Rather expensive mistake! However I did watch videos that recommend exactly the opposite to you - if you are between sizes - go for smaller. The bike is feeling nervous and twitchy and I am rather loosing confidence with it instead of building some. So it is going for sell probably and I will try with bigger bike.

Wow, that helps alot. Thank you guys so much for this and I gotta say I love this "RUNNING is for CRIMINALS" t-shirt :-)

6'1" XL. Long time rider. I hate to be cramped on any bike.

where is that trail at?

It seems like standover has become less and less of an issue in the last few years. I am 5'6" with a 29" inseam and can't fathom myself on a 29er of any geometry. I ride a 26" Yeti in a small, myself. It fits perfectly.

Agility vs stability

I went from a small to a medium and I definitely go faster

I’m 6’ 1/2” , 33” inseam, and 74” wingspan. Can’t decide on a L or XL RIPMO. Bike shop says XL all day. Just got off a HT2 L which I liked. Any insights?

Pls use the metric system too

How tall are these guys? And weight.

How tall are you guy's?

Brim !!!

'FAST' is a loaded term. I think you mean 'top speed'. Pro's sized down because of 'fast'.... races are won in the corners.