The typical flow of a MTG Goldfish Commander debate: Seth: (totally reasonably) statement A Richard: actually, the exact opposite of statement A Crim: the exact opposite of statement A, BUT in a way that pisses off the whole table Tomer: ok, guys. But what about…statement A?

Some great suggestions discussed. After having played a couple decades, the best change idea ive heard came from reddit a couple weeks ago now. It was that commander tax can be paid separate from the commander itself to put the commander into hand at sorcery speed, similar to nerfed companion rules. It would allow for larger commanders to still be playable after dying a couple times. I would add that this rule would only apply after the commander has been played once, paying 0 to add something to hand immediately would break it. But being able to pay 4 one turn then 6 the next for your commander is much more feasible than 10 mana in a single turn.

Richard, 'When a lowly guy works their way up the 'corporate ladder'" - they are becoming Legendary. That is the Kamigawa flipcard.

If wish grabbed things from exile, people would loop teferi’s protection, or expropriate.

The thing about artifacts like thrumming stone as your commander is they’d have colorless color identity, making them far worse than they actually seem

I like goldfather to acknowledge the mtg goldfish connection. But codfather includes the fish aspect better

I hear this a lot "oh everyone combos no one attacks." "The combat step is weak." "Ow stop hitting me so I die a turn before I combo off."

Every pod I’ve ever played in, combat matters tremendously. Prison effects matter, cards like Inkshield matter, combat tricks are crucial. I think there are a much higher percentage of pods who play super casual, battlecruiser/on board type of edh than you think (Richard) 😂 not *every* creature is there for attacking or defending, but this is how we win more often than not. During combat, and what results from it. And we like it that way.

Seth: "I worry about one player getting ganged up" Also Seth: Gangs up on one player consistently

There are 69 (nice) Planeswalkers currently with Green in their color, and 181 Planeswalkers without any Green at all EDIT: Of those 69 containing Green, 10 of them are Golgari, so Carth the Lion is already probably taking that Commander slot; 4 of them already have "CARDNAME can be your Commander"; and then 1 of them is Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist

Honestly I think the examples used for "flip-into-a-legendary" were pretty neat from a flavor perspective. Like, having Erbus as your commander is like you have Withengar leading his cultists from inside his prison. That's a super flavorful sort of Eldritch storyline being told right there about Withengar using his disciples to free himself from his prison *during* your session. That sounds awesome! Ormendahl as well. With Kenzo the Hardhearted it's a story of a regular fish-out-of-water soldier who feels way out of his depth but he's in charge of this whole army because someone *saw* something in him. All he needs is to grow into his role and he'll be a commander that we can all believe in! I think stories like this absolutely belong at a commander table and I honestly don't see a big issue of power level, even with Ormendahl.

Banned as Commander was problematic to program for MTGO would be my guess as to a 'real' reason.

On the topic of infect - at a typical table there will only be 1 infect deck. So there will be 3 players attacking the 40 life total while only one person is attacking with infect damage. I’m not an infect player, but it doesn’t need to be changed. As far as I’m concerned it’s much more difficult to win with infect then regular damage.

The problem with wish for me is like what seth said a lot of silver bullet cards that you dont have to run in your deck making it worse. Atleast with a tutor you have to have it in the 99 with the chance that you draw it when it isn't good. An example of this is i can wish for boil and blow out the blue players, but if im in a pod with zero blue players i never have to commit to having the card in my deck. If you are going to run random hate i would atleast like you to commit to having it in your deck and making a deck making decision instead of just running it in the sideboard

The only reason I've ever wanted to pull from any card in my collection is specifically for Spawnsire of Ulamog. I wanted so badly ever since I saw that card back in the day that I could live that dream and never could 😭

I completely agree with Seth on sideboards. It would add way too much consistency and tutoring to a singleton format, and it also has logistically problems, like that you have to go get new sleeves for all your existing decks and potentially find bigger deck boxes.

The wish takes were genuinely insane. When you include a hate piece to tutor for in your deck, you risk drawing it when it isn't relevant. Wishes don't even have that downside. The last thing we need is "tutors but even more broken"

The 2 problems I have with wishes is 1) it’s another copy. Like it isn’t just a tutor. It lets you play 2 fierce guardianships or 2 rhystic studies and things like this. And 2) since it doesn’t tutor from the 99, it breaks the “scarcity” of choosing which 99 cards to put in your deck. Like how many times have we heard that X card just didn’t make the cut? I do wish the lessons worked though :(

Alternative for Lesson/Learn mechanic: change the Learn spells to let you search your library for a Lesson instead of make a new wishboard. Tutor for mediocre spells seems functionally the same aside from negligible deck thinning & shuffles

Your season recaps have influenced our play group to collect data. Our data shows out of 123 games that the player who plays 4th wins as much as going 1st. 3rd is woefully behind and I believe that this is because the player in 4th is usually viewed as being behind and end up not being attacked or having their permanents destroyed. Something to think about

The thing about wishes is that they impose additional deckbuilding burdens on everyone. Even if I play 0 wish cards, I need to have a wishboard for the 1% chance I steal/copy a wish from an opponent through some unintended interaction. (For example, Hive Mind, Narset's Reversal, Memory Plunder, etc.) That means every deck going forward needs to be 105 or whatever the new number is, or you're just playing sub-optimally.

Crim had the perfect counterargument for sideboards at 22:45. "I have to play something narrow [if I want to stop somebody in a particular way]." EXACTLY. That's the whole point of an upper bound to deck size. Every card in your deck has an opportunity cost of a slot that now can't be used for other cards. Opening up sideboards basically expands your deck size without diluting your actual deck. Demonic tutor et al represent redundancy for cards already in your deck that you have spent a slot on, wish cards represent a nebulous, yet-undecided amount of cards that you have otherwise decided not to run in your deck if you want to run null rod, put it in your deck. It's 99 cards (plus commander). If you don't expect to need it you might get wrecked by artifact/treasure decks sometimes. That's the cost of having access to narrow cards

A part of me does sympathize with not wanting making formats too bureaucratic but Banned as Commander should be the exception to this.

Richard suggesting playing wishes as printed blows my mind. That would be so warping it would hardly even be the same format. I can imagine it being some competitive player’s wet dream, but I would be running for the hills.

The "penalty" for playing multiple colors is looking at the problem from the wrong perspective. I don't believe its something we can fix cleanly with mechanics. WotC needs to print more cards that properly incentivize more limited color decks like Commander's Plate. Or even burn spells that do more damage based on opponents color identities, some kind of color hate. I truly think that's the least complex way the problem is addressed.

Wish: Tutors already go against the spirit of the format, i.e., embracing variance, but most importantly, they provide silver bullets in your deckbuilding without paying any opportunity cost. It's okay to play silver bullets that can negate your opponents' entire strategy, but it should come at the cost of being a dead card slot and a dead draw when no one plays that strategy. WIshes dodge that downside. A friend of mine uses Rule 0 to play them, and it feels unfair everytime. "Play more graveyard hate" will become "Play more wishes".

I feel like wish style effects aren't really in the spirit of commander being an 100 card format. The limitation for tutors are that you still have to play the card *in* your deck. It's not feasible to run 100 niche answers for specific problems, you have to pick and choose based on theme, power level, price, and priority, etc. The 100 cards is a limitation that breeds creativity. But with wish cards, you *always* have the answer. I feel like some of the most fun and unique puzzles and challenges I've had in commander would immediatly crumble to the constant presence of a 'perfect answer' card.

Very much agree that there very well can be distinctions to the bans: banned as Commander, banned in the 99, even banned as Companion

I always thought that commander damage is 21 because it’s more than 50% of the life total.

I think a Wish Board is very dangerous. What happens when you can essentially add 400 more tutors to your deck? Also, you can make your win conditions Praetor’s Grasp-proof.

The downside to infect is that you are the only one doing infect damage. You now have to deal 30 damage by yourself. But commander Vultron at least still deals normal damage and you can close out the game without it.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the doubling season concern with planeswalkers. Did you guys forget about color restrictions? I don't think it's as bad of an issue as you guys are making.

This was the best podcast in a while. Sometimes you four talk about a version of the format I've never seen ("casual tables are somehow simultaneously all combos and turn 15 games"), but overall there were fewer trolly takes.

Gosh darn that 10 sec intro ad for the playmat is so clean

On the going first question, my pod does similar with the rolling scry for 2 and 3, last doesn't scry, but starts as the monarch. We also roll to pick our position instead of who goes first.

I look forward to seeing how the rolling scry works out

Completely agree with Seth on wish cards. The problem with Richard’s ‘silver bullets in the 99’ response is they take up a card slot and arnt always relevant. If you can wish out any artifact for example karn is immediately a tutor for any kind of hate piece imaginable while only using one spot.

Love this, I'd love to have a group that's down with Community Comander, where all of the popular rules changes like hybrid mana, silver bordered, more than 100 cards, and 7 card side boards are allowed. Could also rotate some of the other suggestions like infect and comander color identity +1, I think it'd be fun once I get the chance to play some magic again.

The legendary non-legend rule could be like the color identity rule. Give permanents a "legendary identity" so if any part of them is a legendary creature it's fair to use as a commander.

I like the Idea of adding Monarch as a sort of "community commander" Have it available for all players to put Monarch into play for 3 CMC as long as its not already in play.

I think something along the lines of 4 objects/cards that players pick in reverse turn order would be interesting. Something like treasure, clue, food, and monarch (could be adjusted). Forth player picks first.

We've been playing with last player gets Monarch and I would say it's been pretty fun. We have seen a few cheeky play but you can generally see it coming when someone wins the roll and says "Yeah, I'm gonna play last..." discarding a large card to hand size.

Genuine Question: Why do people dislike bans so much? If the argument is to introduce more cards into the format, don’t we hundreds every year anyways? Aren’t there alternatives?

I'm looking forward to that new playmat.

Honestly the health change start actually punishes combo decks the most and rewards aggro. A lot of combo decks use their health to combo off. With lower health you can't go off as easily.

Lower life totals seem like a slam dunk. Many decks such as all non-combo tribes like warriors, minotaurs ect.. just aren't playable even at low powered tables.

I think since you can play creatures that transform into noncreatures (Origins Planeswalkers, new Innistrad Legends) the reverse should be allowed. Also, all the Kaldheim Gods already wrecked the whole "sentient" argument for commanders, because there's enough prismatic bridge decks that don't even know what Esika does. I think something like the new O-Kagachi would be a cool commander

So regarding the rule about combining commander damage and you guys fearing that voltron will become too powerful, how often do you see more than 1 voltron deck at the table at a time?

You all should have a series where you try out all these different rules and see how they actually play in practice. 1 game try any legendary as commander. Then the next game try combined commander damage and so on.

Richard had some hilariously bizarre hit takes in this one. He’s always good for a left field spicy comment.

Biggest problem to me with comparing wishes to "just another tutor" is its not, they dont search your libary so running burning wish isnt tutor 3+ its searching somewhere completly differnt, so if you made a limited sideboard that still has to follow singleton with your deck its not "yet another way to get x card" because if that cards in your deck you cant get it, and if its in your sideboard you can only get it with a wish also wishes at least (obviusly not things like karn) tend to say "exile this card" on resolution so actualy the more wishes you run instead of normal tutors the less tutors you techincaly have because they are harder to recure from the graveyard

Sideboard: I like a 5 card sideboard you can apply after you see the other players commanders. Small wish pool. Going first discussion: 1st player normal, 2nd player scrys 1 after drawing, 3rd player scrys 1 before drawing, 4th player scrys 2 before drawing Commander damage: I would change it to 20 because 21 isn't intuitive. Don't like grouping it if you also up the threshold, screws commander damage decks.

Our playgroup tested out some of these suggestions in the past. How it played out for us was: giving player 4 an extra card, treasure token, 1 floating mana during t1 main phase was too strong. First combat damage for monarch usually ran away with the game so that's out as well. Currently we have the last player scry 1 after mulligans. The scry thing can work but not as suggested. More balanced way is for p2 scry 1, p3 scry 1 x2, p4 scry 1 x3. We'll l test how the joint commander damage works out.

How to introduce Monarch - Player 1 skips their first draw but gets Monarch. Player 4 can start with the Initiative during their upkeep, if you really want to get wild.

I LOVE the idea of letting people play over 100 cards!!!

The big difference between tutors and wishes is, that tutors actually take a spot in the 99 and wishes actually dont because you just have your sideboard, so you technically dont loose a card spot with wishes and people would abuse it... Noone will play janky stuff in Sideboard -> im pro not having wishes

I definitely think that multicolor decks have a massive advantage over monocolor, but I think the fix is for wizards to provide more support for it, as opposed to a rules change. For example (ignoring green), a two color deck can run a signet & a talisman, and a three color can run three signets & three talismans, while a monocolor deck can't run any! So adding more colors provides more access to colored mana, AND more access to 2-mana ramp. Monocolor decks meanwhile get arcane signet, the diamonds, and then colorless rocks, which puts them in the position of having worse ramp, and less access to colored mana, which is what monocolor decks should be good at!! I think the fix for this would be to print better monocolor rocks (such as untapped diamonds), cards that specifically benefit running fewer colors (like War Room), and monocolor legends that are powerful and interesting to play. I feel like cards such as Yarok should be monocolor, so that if you want to benefit from having such a powerful effect in the command zone, you have to trade off access to more colors.

this article is the perfect example on how bad people are on solving their own problems

I think I’m good on the idea of a typical sideboard for wish cards. Lessons should be allowed if Companions are allowed, but both are pretty narrow card pools, so they curate themselves and self-contain their own power level and nip homogeny concerns in the bud. A sideboard that could just contain any cards would not have those safeguards. As far as Richard/Crim’s idea that wishes should just be able to get any card from your collection.... *HELL. NO.* That is the most insane take I’ve ever heard on this podcast. Sure, let’s just have a few slots in your deck that can just be any card that exists, ever, so the whole concept of thoughtful deck building and diversity just evaporates, and anyone can respond to anything that’s happening at any time. And let’s encourage people even harder to only play 5-color, so they can build decks with 5-10 wishes, and that can be the new homogenous norm, and building any other way would just straight up be incorrect. That sounds absolutely terrible. And it’s the opposite of future-proof. If they kept printing more and more wish cards, and they will, eventually every commander deck would just be wish cards. I would stop playing commander, period, if wish cards could get anything. Golos was bad for the format because it encouraged homogeny. Wish cards being able to get any card you own would be that problem on a colossal scale and kill the format entirely.

On the topic of multicolored decks being way too consistent for the supposed drawback of adding multiple colors... yeah, that's true. My solution to that would be to add a rule that enforces proportionality in your mana costs in the deck based on your commander. If your commander costs BBW, your deck's mana symbols must have 2 black mana symbols in their costs for every 1 white mana symbol. I like this idea as it also reinforces the importance of your commander. Deck building constraints imo are the reason Commander is so fun to play. Adding in more is good, if it reinforces the theme of the game mode.

To fix the monarch issue: Keep the rolling scry for p2,3,4, but give mornarch to player 1 but it only activates upon being transferred to another player (no bonus card draw for p1)

Just started the episode, so I'm not sure if it's discussed, but I recently saw a suggestion on how to change the commander tax to make more expensive commanders more viable. Basically, you have the option to pay the commander tax on its own to put your commander into your hand to then cast it from there. For example, let's say you've cast your commander twice so far into the game and it now currently resides in your command zone. With this rule change, you would have the option to pay 4 to put your commander into your hand from which you can then cast it instead of having to pay the full cost (tax + mana value) upfront. This makes it so that certain commanders become more viable or even playable and it makes it so that it's much more difficult to be costed out of the game. Phage, for example, could now be cast from your hand with ease, and the Myojin cycle is now viable. Now, there would have to be another mechanic that allows your commander to be put into your hand before having cast it once (maybe pay 2 the first time and then the tax comes into effect from then on) but I still think this would greatly benefit the format as a whole.

Best way to introduce always having the monarch in commander IMO: Set the monarch in the middle of the board and out of play. First player to deal damage with their commander gets the monarch.

If the turn 1 player was the monarch but couldnt draw naturally until they lost it, it would lessen the turn 1 players starting power(drawing first card at end of turn is worse than at start). And the turn 4 player usually won't suffer as people tend to swing to get the monarch. Early no blockers. Not perfect, but does lessen the gap between turn 1 and turn 4.

I think sideboards would just end up being a toolbox of stax pieces. People don't want to always run stuff like Rest In Peace or Null Rod because they're symmetrical and potentially dead draws depending on what decks are at the table. But sideboards eliminate the opportunity cost and will allow people to shutdown certain decks a lot easier.

I think part of what makes commander fun is the lack of consistency. I think a wishboard would be way too consistent. Of course I also think a lot of tutors should be banned so there’s that

This is a great podcast episode... While I was watching, I thought of this rules change that can both introduce the monarch and give the last player an advantage... The first players gains the monarch at their end step (so they don't get the extra card) and all their opponents get 1/1 creature token that sacrifices itself when it deals damage... If every opponent getting a creature is too much, we can make it so only the last player gains the token... I thought that by doing it like this, nothing is added to the board that is very impactful (like extra mana with treasures) but provides significant advantage for the players that are not the first in turn order...

Didn't like the idea of rolling scry at first, but after you guys talked about it I gotta say I'm kind of a fan now. I'd honestly probably take the scry depending on the deck I'm in.

The side board rule I'd make is: 5 cards, face up. Companions take a slot. Face up discourages silver bullets. It would still be singleton with the deck.

I agree that something should be added to alleviate the disparity between going first and going last. And I agree that turn 1 monarch can cause weird things with discarding, and rewards the first player again most likely. Perhaps if the "Initiative" had a different set of rooms to reward as the game carries along, that might help the last player AND reward the whole table with bigger events (like Crim proposed).

As old as this is, infect is fine where it is. The ire it draws from the table tends to balance it out.

Fun episode guys!

What if like, first player to take combat damage becomes monarch? It encourages politicking, attacking, and doesn't encourage mana dorks. Also avoids discarding to hand first turn for most people.

Have have you guys considered playing the commander variant format Conquest ? It implements many of the rules you guys discussed today to try and make a more balanced format. Lower life totals, the scry rule, and a more balanced ban lists ( fast mana, tutors) . Including ban as commander. Overall I believe it achieves a more fair format. With less feel bads. Since people don’t have to self regulate themselves.

We've experimented with three different ways to introduce the monarch by default in some of my playgroups. The first is first blood, which heavily favors the first player. The second is whoever plays their Commander first, which still favors the first player but has some balance factors that made it feel a little bit better. For example it encouraged playing the commander out when maybe it wasn't as protected or not part of a combo. However it made more expensive commanders less attractive. The third was to give it to the player who went last both to introduce monarch and also give them a slight benefit for going last. This was more complicated because it ended up often the case that they were getting beaten up or losing it right away due to the tempo the other players had on them. It also was frequently abused to accelerate graveyard combos because of the need to discard almost guaranteed. In truth the best way I've found to guarantee there's always some element of the monarch in my games is that I just play monarch cards in every single one of my decks 🤷

Funny thing is: The Prismatic Bridge a 5-color enchantment is a legal Commander that gets used... so yeah

With the last person getting the monarch I think it’s just looting & if given the option it’s better to loot than to not loot one of two problems I can see is that what if said person is running a graveyard deck? Idk how it might affect the game. Secondly the first player would typically be the first to attack & potentially take the monarch leading to them having additional benefit.

I love the rolling scry idea

I feel like a good monarchy thing is something like the first spell the 4th player casts just has "You become the monarch" as a rider, so then you know they wont have to discard to hand size, easy. I think it's important to keep them from discarding because it disproportionately powers up the yard decks if you let them get a free discard turn 1, like wowzers

love the new playmat design!!

For the monarch thing maybe it's a special game action that costs some amount of mana. Maybe "3: if no player is the monarch, you become the monarch. Play this ability only as a sorcery" maybe that could work? This is why I play Queen Marchessa as my main deck. Everyone always has fun when I play her because of the monarchy

In regards to wishes. I actually think they should work as they did when originally printed and grab from exile.

One solution that my old LGS implemented around going first that I carry into new playgroups is pretty simple. If you won the last game, you don't get to roll to see who goes first. This avoids the player who won the last game getting the advantage of going first in the new game.

I think a side board would be fun in a tournament setting. Before game after commanders are revealed you can exchange cards from your side board in your main deck and make companion take up one of those slots. That being said a wish Tutor is much stronger than a Demonic Tutor because you don't need to take up a deck slot on those cards so it absolutely should be limited how many you can have and still require commander color identity

I listened to the podcast today and have half an idea about getting monarch started in game. Maybe the monarch starts on the table and has some sort of counters on it and when those are depleted, the active player gets the monarch. Maybe you have to attack into the monarch like some sort of NPC. Maybe you deal 5 damage to the monarch to get it? I feel like there's something there.

On the topic of penalizing multicolor. I think that blood moon, back to basics , and to an extent price of progress are great cards for helping ensure that 5c decks are kept in check. Also, I know we say its perfect mana, but perfect mana comes at a cost of life (if you don't have OG duals) shocks and fetches already lower your life total a pretty significant amount if you have 10 fetches and 10 shocks.

Going into your collection and grabbing any random card with a wish is the most casual kitchen table thing imaginable and thus should be legal in commander

For the monarch to be implemented is the first person to either miss a land drop or the first person to not have a land etb so natures lore or farseek don’t trigger it. That way it would typically go to the person who gets mana screwed so they can catch up and for the people who want the monarch they would need to miss a land etb so it would slow them down.

I play with a group that generally prefers quicker games. Either they get more games in, or they can stop sooner if they need to. For this group, changing starting life total to 30 was easy, intuitive, and effective for both requirements.

My table runs starts like this: first player draws 7, second player draws 8, third player draws 9, etc... then everyone sculpts their hands down to 7.

The RC said the reason why Infect is still at 10 in EDH is because all it is best at is taking out 1 person so it needed a buff considering it would honestly be too weak to take out the whole table if it was increased to 20 infect counters. Let's not forget that the moment you blow someone up with infect is the moment the rest of the table gangs up on you to take you out as you are the weakest with no more resources but you have infect so you are still a threat. And even if you are not still a threat you are easy prey plus no one likes alt wincons like that in the first place, basically infect needed to stay at 10 because feels bad the table would have as just like Slivers they would still fear you

Responding to the Monarch, it is a good mechanic for Commander. I think the best solution is for Wizards to print more cards that introduce it.

Well done on getting to 50 guys.

I wonder if merchandising keeps decks at 100? All the sleeves come in packs of 100 for commander, deck boxes are a certain size , wizards would have to charge even more for precons for extra cards and extra packaging.

I'd love to see the gang try out some of these rules, especially the scry 3 if you're the fourth player.

The strongest decks are 3 or 4 or 5 colors. 3 color op commanders, 4 color duo partners, 5 color golos banned kenrith etc. 5 color decks are usually weaker than 3 or 4 because of mana base. Honestly "non-basic lands" cards punish 5 color decks WAY harder than 2 or 3. Back to basics/blood moon kills 5 color but barely even affect mono colored decks.

The sideboard idea initially for, but after some thought no. It would likely lead to more unfun play patterns. Like Seth said, it would make Wish’s on a level like tutors (which are pretty unfun as a whole). A limited version like Learn would be great, with the pool a bit more limited would be interesting.

I got one, if you combo out on a casual game turn 1, you only get to play a 99 basic land deck

Player 4 turn 1 with monarch: loot, discard ulamog, turn 2: reanimate.

I agree with Richard, scry 3 is insane and I think that going first should be countered by more players realizing that you just target player 1 until there is another obvious target