... and then if we bring up 'the past' (even if it was 2 hours ago), we get lectured about forgiveness.

Sounds like ex-covert Narc. Everyone on the outside thought he was warm and charming, a total sweetheart. Behind closed doors it was constant passive-aggressive mind games, gaslighting, lies, and what I refer to as "manufacturered arguments." I found myself constantly apologizing and defending myself for things I'd never done. NO MORE of that sh*t.

Same here. You’re not alone at all 🙏🏽

Same here, too.

😢 I relate. So sad.

Teach our kids better

I feel the same way! I just want to hide. My own son who lives right next to me, literally open my door and his door is right there, is a high scoring covert narcissist. Two of my exs are covert narcs (including my sons dad), my step father is an overt narc. I have a male overt narc friend whos hoovering me after discarding me because I wont date him and a female friend with narc traits. My Mom is Schizophrenic. My Dad who was the healthiest person in my life isn't with us anymore. Everyone else is alcoholic/addict or dysfunctional. No one in my life is sober or healthy. I'm codependent and compassionate for the underdogs so I must be attracting these situations with my desire to help and fix.

@@RawMotivations I did my best raising my daughter. She's very empathetic but also quite damaged. The counselors out there now are just telling her what she wants to hear and not actually guiding her. So she grasps on to everything society is telling her. She's so lost even though she's an amazing young lady. She has no idea who she is and I don't know how to help her other than love her and support her as much as I can at 3000 miles away 😢

With narcissists you cannot ever erase or unhappen things that are in the past and short of doing that nothing is ever going to be good enough. Any failure in the narcissist's eyes is permanent and irredeemable. It doesn't even have to have actually happened , their belief that it did is all that's required, if you admit it you're a bad person, if you deny it you're a liar.There is no reasonable way to deal with this. There's no forgiveness , empathy, understanding, consideration, benefit of the doubt, good faith, redemption or no moving on. Not only is there no room for them to be a human being there's no room for anybody else to be one either. Any deviation from perfection seems to be seen as a permanent failure. The fact that it could happen at all is evidence of how unsafe, unreliable, untrustworthy etc somebody is. A side effect of this mindset can also be that the narcissist is unable to move on from some self-imposed shame regarding things that they have done and they claim that you are the person who will not let it go. It is a favorite claim of narcissists in general that some failure or lack or mistake on the part of the other person is responsible for the problems in the relationship and if that person can just redeem themselves in the narcissist's eyes everything will be okay. Many may actually really believe that the problem is that.. it's not true. The deep deep insecurity and pathological distrust that are inherent in this personality structure make intimacy and trust impossible for them. Most probably really do believe the problem is the other person or the other people..they may say all the right things but when it comes down to it they simply cannot or will not do the things necessary to trust other people and repair relationships. Tis is considered to be your problem, if you can't fix it and you can't fix how they feel about it you're gonna get what you deserve. Many people say they are willing to do things but their actions prove that they're really not. Many people say they trust others but their actions prove that they really don't. The more a narcissistic person feels you're trying to convince them or change their mind in essence to "manipulate them" the harder they are likely to resist and push back against what you're saying. When they don't feel you're trying to convince them the more likely they are to believe that you don't care anymore and you're rejecting them and abandoning them... you cannot win here. This is unreasonable, illogical and ridiculous. The more you try the less they believe, you the less you try the less they believe you. The basic thing here is that you should keep putting in all of this effort to convince them because it proves to them that they matter, even though the fact that you're trying so hard causes them to distrust your motives even more than they already do and even though their contrary childish nature precludes them from even listening anyway. Most also have a deep-seated distrust ,this often includes a fear of being controlled, manipulated, brainwashed, tricked which makes considering anything anyone says almost impossible , especially if they're being contradicted.. however despite all of that as soon as you stop trying to convince them you may be immediately accused of not caring. This is not about you or what you are saying it's all about the attention and the focus and the energy you are pouring on to the narcissist in your attempts to get them to believe you. They except you validate whatever you're trying to do that is what matters. What you want from them does not matter, it's not considered, it has not mattered, it will not matter and you will not get it. What matters is you trying to get it. It is extreme effort that doesn't benefit you in any way. Narcissists also have an inability to process and move on from things. They have a hard time moving on or process things or accept them and come to terms with them in a healthy way so they can be at peace. It's more of an escape from things than anything else. For example years after they had a bad experience at a job or relationship they may continue to talk about it as if it just happened recently. All the emotion about the situation is still there. They will often still say the same things, feel the same way have the same conclusions. There maybe no growth or expanding of perspective at all. If it involves the narcissist experiencing negative emotions they simply cannot see or hear anything past that. This is why it's no point getting caught in a cycle of explaining yourself to narcissists it doesn't work. It is extremely difficult to deal with someone who cannot move on from things. It ends with people being harassed punished and just tortured over things for years. This can be especially horrible because these can be things that never even happened. It results in endless cyclical arguments that never go anywhere ,never get resolved and never end, because this person simply cannot let it go. It never stops and it won't stop because not only do they need to blame you for things in order to avoid shame for themselves and not only do they want to punish you for supposedly hurting them as you have they have some other very serious issues in this area. There's no growth , evolution, second chance there is only endless punishment and judgment. Whatever they think you did is etched in stone and will never wear off. it can't be forgiven, it does not decrease in severity over time. If anything over time what you supposedly did may become worse not better. That is until someone else does something to them and they need you to be there for them. It doesn't go away but it matters less than their need to feel better.. until it doesn't again of course. This is your only function in these relationships you are a tool to help regulate their emotions. Pathologically narcissistic people are extremely rigid psychologically/ They are inflexible and they have a very hard time integrating new data into their understanding of things. On top of suffering from a range of cognitive distortions they enter into a state of cognitive fusion where thoughts, emotions, and experiences become fused together. These become fixed in their minds, their perception of reality and consequently their reactions and their behavior reflect this fused experience rather than the experience of the actual situation or the moment. They reject information that refutes or disproves the fused experience not just because they're psychologically rigid but also because of cognitive distortions their conclusions make sense to them. They might have been in this state of cognitive fusion for decades without ever questioning or even acknowledging it. Cognitive fusion and psychological inflexibility contribute to narcissists talking about the same things or asking the same questions over and over again as if they've never been discussed. The inflexibility and subsequent rejection of new information is not just a result of these cognitive issues they are also an automatic defense reaction. Acceptance or consideration of the new information would cause narcissists to experience an unwanted or negative emotional event such as being wrong. Being wrong might not sound so terrible to you but to someone living in such a shame-based existence it's very dangerous. Shame is a core component of the narcissistic personality it is disproportionately strong and it can be triggered very easily. They spend their lives trying to outrun this shame and things like being wrong can cause a tidal wave of shame yhat they can't escape. This can be one of the reasons they tend not to learn from mistakes or failures and a big reason they are so resistant to skill-based therapies which could possibly help them with management of some things. Even for narcissists who can admit they have some problems the idea that they must do something differently can be tantamount to having done something wrong. This makes it very difficult for narcissistic people to process events particularly if they involve negative emotions. They have such a tendency to automatically perceive things negatively. Because they will try to avoid negative emotional experiences at all costs. there are many things that happen which they're not able to process or accept. They can seem to move on from things quite easily but that's often because they're not moving on from things they are moving away from things towards something someone or somewhere else. That's not moving on it's escaping, we see this very clearly in the use of gaslighting, word salad, projection. blame shifting. shame dumping and virtually all of their other toxic behaviors. It's all about avoiding escaping potentially negative emotional experiences. They cannot process or hold negative emotions they have to simply vent them out. This may release some of the pressure for them in the moment but it does not address the emotion in any way so it just sits there. This is why they still seem angry upset, hurt or bothered by things for so long even things that happened decades ago. In order to move on from things you have to be able to process what happened and the emotions that came with it then you have to be able to accept it all. narcissists don't do any of that and consequently they do not move on they move away. This overwhelmingly has to do with things narcissists believe have been done to them.

Because they don't bond with other people the loss of a relationship only seems to matter when they believe the other person did something to them, which is often the relationship itself though is not the focus or the problem. It's what was done wrong to the narcissist that is what they cannot move on from/ This is ironically also why they move away so quickly from things they've done to other people/ Being told they've done something wrong exposes narcissists which triggers shame- not remorse, shame and remorse are not the same thing. It triggers shame and must be avoided. The lack of ability to process negative emotions keeps them stuck in what they believe has been done to them but it also allows them to move away from the things they've done to other people. In some ways time has stopped for this person and will never move on but in others time is flying by too fast for them to even catch.When you don't process emotions this keeps the situation fresh as if it just happened at the same time avoiding everything and just moving away from it can make events and experiences seem farther away than they really were. This results in sometimes talking about things from decades ago as if they just happened but also talking about things as if they happened decades ago when they just happened. Their concept of time in this way can be very vague and seems often to be based on how emotionally impacted they were by something. If it has no emotional meaning for them it seems to have no meaning at all. Hoovering falls under this umbrella as well. Many times people believe hoovering is evidence that the narcissist cares about them " look they came backm they're crying , promising change .apologizing and look they gave up that other relationship and made this big huge grandiose gesture" but once again the narcissist is trying to avoid a negative emotional experience by re-securing the relationship. This is not evidence that they care about somebody. It's evidence that losing control over other people terrifies them because they're dependent on other people to survive. It also seems to be very very common among narcissistic Personalities in general to ignore things in the hope that they're just going to go away. it also seems to explain a lot about how these personalities generally cope with lifem in a very real sense they don't. Now of course avoiding problems is not something that only narcissists do, but these particular personalities seem to have a lot more trouble just coping with basic daily life than most people realize. Probably because they can be very good at hiding it. Being wrong has very high stakes for them. The very thought that they could be wrong about something seems to trigger an almost frantic need to insist that they're not and to hang on to that no matter what. The toxic shame that they are always battling notwithstanding there doesn't seem to be the psychological flexibility to deviate very easily from a mindset or a course of action and there doesn't seem to be much of an ability to face things head on in any capacity anyway so they often avoid and ignore things as much as possible, even to the point of sabotaging themselves and creating very negative consequences in their own lives. This is true even in situations where the solution to a problem is something very simple such as making a phone call or filling out a form. We could say that narcissists ignore problems because they don't care and obviously in some cases or in all cases on some level that's true. However they often seem to be extremely stressed out about these problems and very concerned about the consequences. There seems to be a deep feeling of powerlessness and a disconnect for these personalities like a child "there's nothing can do about this" "I have no power" "I don't know what to do about this" "this is somebody else's job instead" hey rely on magical thinking and hoping that things will turn out the way they want as well as trying to manipulate others to affect the world on their behalf. This is where their feelings of having power and agency upon the world have to come from, because they don't seem to understand that they have any on their own. If you've ever seen a baby in a high chair deliberately throw something then the mother picks it up and hands it back only for the baby to throw it again and scream for the mother to give it back to them so they can throw it again and make her pick it up again you have an idea of how and why this works. The baby feels Mastery and agency over the world through their ability to induce the mother to do something that they can't do for themselves. Adult narcissists don't seem to operate much differently from that. this childish powerlessness may also help explain why so many seem unable to connect their actions to consequences. They don't seem to believe they have power to affect the world in any real way. It's as if they believe their actions don't count somehow or that they happen in a vacuum affecting no one including themselves. This may be part of the reason why they lash out so extremely/ It's an attempt to affect the world that they inhabit. Similar to a small child who feels no real responsibility for their actions because they see themselves as simple at the mercy of the actions and the decisions of other people. They don't act they react. As much difficulty as they are likely having given these issues, narcissists can be very very good at hiding these things. Chances are you won't see fear or Panic very much regardless of how much of it there might actually be. It's much more common to see anger, arrogance, aggression, entitlement, self-righteousness, indifference. these are "safe" expressions of emotions that do not appear or feel weak. Most narcissists despise and fear what they perceive as weakness, especially in themselves. It's sadly ironic because in their Panic not to seem weak, their weaknesses become obvious. For example someone who can't take even constructive criticism or who will not change course even in the face of total failure has not really come across as strong or confident. Narcissists often appear to care a lot about any unpleasant consequences they might incur but true to form they don't seem to understand or believe their own actions play any part in the situation at all. They Endeavor instead to change the consequences for their behavior instead of the behavior itself. It's as if once again they believe they have no power in this situation, it all belongs to other people. If I change what I'm doing that's not going to fix anything I need to change what other people are doing. If that's not successful they appear to be unable to see how to avoid the consequences they don't want so they simply avoid facing or dealing with them. If it is at all possible we can say that this is because they simply don't want to change their behavior and that would definitely be true in many situations, but in some ways it's too simple of an answer. Many times the situation has grown out of something really small or that's not even important to the narcissist. So why such resistance to doing something different why the almost delusional refusal to believe that their behavior has anything to do with the consequences they're facing in their lives? wh y simply keep creating these self-sabotaging situations over and over again to say that they don't care about that is not really true regard regardless of what they say. They often seem to at least superficially recognize the impact the consequences will have on them or their lives and they care very much, they still do not take action if all of their attempts to alter the consequences or manipulate others to intercede on their behalf fail. Many narcissists fall back onto indifference they just stop caring. it's as if for some of them not caring is an almost desperate defense mechanism against the fear and the confusion created by a fundamental inability to function even. basically as an adult person instead of learning how they simply give up and get through life as best they can which is often not very well at all. the truth is they might not even know why they didn't take care of it these personalities are very disconnected from themselves and the real world in general, Many narcissists simply walk around in large part just reacting to their feelings without very much thought for what they're doing or not doing at all. There are of course some who are super responsible when it comes to the general nuts and bolts type of tasks in life, but in general we find that relying on pathologically narcissistic people to take care of things that are important is a mistake. Even those that are super responsible May ignore and avoid things that they don't want to deal with, regardless of the consequences. if you're going to be in a situation where you have to rely on them it's probably better for you to either do it yourself or find someone else who will. Ironically though this may upset the narcissist because they don't like the idea that you're implying they've done something wrong or they didn't do something and now somebody else has to do it but after their tantrum they're still not going to be any more reliable or responsible, Narcissists simply cannot face emotional issues in any way no matter what and the consequences of facing. Something emotional that they've failed at are bigger for them in the moment than the consequence of not facing it.

@@aliross2720 Thank you so much for taking the time to share your insight with me. Wow, thank you! Everything you’ve told me is absolutely fascinating, but also living with it, day to day, has been absolute craziness. I sincerely thank you for sharing. I’m dealing with all you have told me, with my husband, we’ve been married 34 years, so I won’t be leaving him. But, I find understanding his behavior, a relief to an extent. I don’t have to take on his crap, that’s empowering! I’ve had to re think me, and my behavior, and that has been really challenging, to stay healthy in such a verbally and physically challenging and abusive situation. Thank you again so much! I am a believer in Christ, Who is The God of the Impossible; I am asking for the impossible, healing of my husbands mind and soul. Healing in this marriage. I’ll let you know what happens. I really appreciate you helping me see how he thinks and what his motivations are. I’ve moved past the arguing with him as I’ve never won a battle, or felt heard, or redeemed from any perceived wrong shoved down my throat, and I don’t pursue him as a friend anymore, and intimacy with him is not available to me. So, I have taken on a heart to love the unlovable, without expectation. I have family and friends, who provide the companionship and trust I can’t have with my husband, and most importantly, a good relationship with Christ, who fulfills my heart and soul even in the roughest of times, and bombardment, accusations, and hurts. I am allowed a lot of time to myself, so I have learned how to ‘live’ free most of the time. You are a blessing to me. Again thank you so much! God bless you for helping people everywhere with this special challenge.

@@aliross2720 You seem to have a deep well of insight on this topic - far more than the average commenter. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Are you a professional in the field?

We have more resources coming

Cause they don’t want to talk about anything especially if they feel blamed and everything makes them feel like we are blaming them. 😮

Same! … not about cheating, but about any other issue. Eye roll, deep breath, walk out of the room.

I get ooo sia and I get a kiss, all of sudden nothing happened

Not forgetting I get blamed for always holding onto the past even if I am talking about something he did two weeks ago and we still dealing with it, and I got told I am a pit bull with a bone 😅

Even though things seemed fine, it always caused so much wasted time and energy wondering how to leave, instead of thinking of what i love to work on, environmental and social justice. I always conclude it would take more time, energy and money to move than to push through the feelings of, "this guy is not on my side and it bums me out." Thanks for helping🙏

@@melaniem9433 This here! Then after all the years of trying to ignore his behavior, trying to ignore his actions or lack thereof, he discarded me.

@@orchider143 the years aren't wasted when they help us learn how to cut through the bs faster when we meet the next faker, since there are so many fakers to watch out for🙄 I'm sorry for the pain they cause🙏😪🙏 We need to discard that word, "discard" when we're talking about people, though - you are not trash!😤 freedom is scary, best wishes🙏

I am assuming you meant this to be directed towards Raw Motivation, but I will share my .02. I understand your need to say something that you think will pierce the veil, turn on the lightbulb, get him to peek under his own lid. But I think he will likely just turn it right around back onto you. If he knows enough pop psychology, he may even accuse you of projecting, pathologizing and manipulating him. He may even start a smear campaign against you. Be careful, and good luck.

Say nothing and just get out. I’m trying hard to get out now. Don’t tell him, it will not make it better. In the future if he ever starts working on him and his processing and emotions in therapy and admits what he is then you could tell him safely how you felt now.

I wish that I had taken his previous marriage more seriously instead of believing his crazy wife garbage 🤦‍♀️ which later he denied anyway

Thank you. Start more of your healing in our 7 day challenge www.escapetoxicity.com/7dchallenge

Depends on charisma

Yes and No. trauma bonds are real. Intermittent reinforcement is a powerful basis for addiction and behavioral change. It takes a lot of self awareness, awakening, and the decision to do things differently for yourself to be free.

use that against you!