hey but the lithium is getting scarce day by day seems like a new replacement for lithium might come at relief of the new battery replacement. hope you have a good day scott btw nice video

@@ruex64 Thanks for the feedback :-)

haha! the comment is from 5 days ago? I was about to get mad that youtube sent a notification after 5 days! think I figured out what happened 😅

If you want a long term subscribtion they are offering 40% off the first year right now.

The first 1,000 people to use this link will get Batteries? (random link)

oh, thats ultra cool.

That'd be neat, but you'd likely need DCC for it, as I don't think these caps can take reverse voltage.

@@BurningApple I think you could use a bridge rectifier in the train itself in order to make it work.

But wouldn't a normal super cap (that does not require over discharge protection and is way cheaper) work just as well for this purpose?

sounds shocking unfortunatley

Reality is often cruel....

it will come down with time

The cheapest currently in europe is the VPF406M3R8 with 40F @ 4€, i think this is a good alternative for e.g. 18650 :D

@@schimpl94 yeah the disadvantage is cleared now !!

How can you comment 5 days ago

I am looking forward to it :-)

My prediction is that anything that would seriously improve both the energy and power density of current best lithium batteries, would make an acceptable hand grenade in a pinch. Remember, batteries store energy as chemical potential, and a battery that stores a lot of energy and can be charged/discharged at high power, is by definition something that can release a lot of stored chemical energy quickly. The latter is also a pretty good definition of explosives.

@@TheBackyardChemist So you are saying smart grenades that can act as either a flashbang or a shrapnel grenade might be in the future?

@@TheBackyardChemist it would be horrible if we created bomb that fit in the hand

@@adrianroed2178 No. Such things would be like improvised devices, like a pipe filled with powder. This would also have safety implications, a Tesla with 3x the range and charge speed would be nice, but it would also have more than enough energy to melt the entire car down to a puddle of lava.

@@twizz420 sometimes you need material science to catch up with an idea. Think touchscreens for example, they were around for decades before they were able to become ubiquitous.

if you flip over a lead acid battery, it will probably leak. That's something you don't want to have on your e bike. Even sealed ones arent reliable on this.

Why not to do it today with cheaper supercaps ?

@@Manfred_Messer meanwhile, the SLA in my house's forgotten 30 year old security system was installed upside down and still hasn't leaked

@@Manfred_Messer These are usually AGMs

Yea totally! I mean... the only gripe seems to be how big they are... so make the entire roof thikk with super/ultracaps, and have a substantial boost with regenerative braking already.

But they are still fundamentally capacitors, they are not meant to store a lot of power. They are meant to store some power which can be charged and discharged very efficiently

Agreed. I'm betting LICs will serve only a few niche applications as long as they impose a minimum voltage requirement and are more expensive.

And yet, I'd suspect that a simple 6 or 8 pin PIC12 or 14 paired with some SMPS components would be enough to implement the full system, + charge & voltage regulation, for maybe a dollar.

@Jared Maddox I don't know their impedance, but if you want 50-100A currents for 2-4s, while keeping within their 1.5V wide operating window. Maybe a circuit designed to discharge specific length pulses, with an enable threshold would work better than approaching it like a battery protection board circuit. If you're making a circuit for Pmax (close to impedance matched load), detecting V internal under 2.5V accurately during a discharge sounds hard.

You may be able to use existing lithium ion charging circuits to protect these capacitors, since they have similiar charge/discharge requirements. May be useful in solar projects where you need the lower discharge rate during off-peak hours.

@@HighfireX yes, looks like LiFePO4 cells have very similar voltages to these capacitors.

Thanks for the feedback :-)

I'm also looking for affordable solution for spot welding 18650 battery packs (with >=0.2mm nickel)

@@cryptophoenix3031 I do that with a 30 € spot welder based on LiPo pouch batteries. I am not sure you can easily beat that with supercaps, they also have current limits etc.

@@wernerviehhauser94 But can it weld thicker >=0.2mm nickel? and what is the effect of heat to the health of the batteries?

@@cryptophoenix3031 the amount of heat generated has nothing to do with the welding device but rather with the materials being welded. I successfully welded paper clips and 0,2mm nickel, but I do not have any thicker material available for tests. This looks similar to mine: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/iq-Pjblemr2smWg.html

The normal way of doing this for decades have been to combine supercaps with battery, it is a cheep simple solution that give you more benefits for less money.

Definitely

My pleasure!

The destruction is definitely a bonus ;-) But other than that, I think those caps were quite interesting.

Not meee!!

Electroboom would agree.

At those prices, I wouldn't blow them up for fun!

Brb gonna mod my dashcam real quick

I design sensors for harsh environments (max 70C for >10yrs). It's unlikely a rechargeable lithium chemistry will ever last that long. And the 500-1000 cycle limit is very limiting. Supercapcitors can be used, but the design is costly, complex and larger than you'd think.

Installing standard Li ion battery on dashcam causes it to bloat

@@dl5244 Wait, what? I thought LICs can discharged thousands of times @ 08:05 . Discharge rate would also matter, wouldn't it? Of course, advancements are still needed. What would be your technology of choice for the particular sensors?

AFAIK they actually already do this!

Most SSD (Solid State Drives) use this technology for this exact purpose. SSDs commonly have a volatile memory cache for writing to the drive, this cache will loose it's information if power is lost and therefor must be dumped to the NAND before shutting down.

Actually RAM only uses a lot of power (for SRAM) when it is being read or is being written to. The LL versions use diddly squat current. Even the crappy ones use 1uA on standby.

​@@gordonlawrence1448 still, if you lose power you don't know for how long it will be lost, RAM is volatile memory, if you lose power for even a second that data is gone, its best to be prepared for the worst

I thought you were talking about a quadcopter and was so confused 😂 That's really cool though!

@@blarbdude I paid about 37$ CND for the capacitors mounted on protection boards. Cheaper than a battery and in theory should last longer than the ATV. A lead acid battery even well maintained in my climate lasts about 3-4 years.

@@scotttod6954 interested in charging system for such batteries is there any difference or can you just wack a standard battery charger on from like a car battery charger

@@Joel-mp2oo the protection boards seem to not really care what I charge it with. To boost I will plug a 4 cell lipo or whatever power source I have around. Once the engine is running it charges great off the stator and voltage regulator. Before I installed them I bench tested with a manual 10amp battery charger. You would need at least a bit of charge in them before an automatic battery charger would recognize it.

I also did a supercap exclusive pack, but for my '09 Chevy Cobalt. Sixteen 2.85V 3400F cells in a 6S2P combo which gives me a 16V 1000F pack. Since the car is a manual, I can push start it at voltages as low as 7V for the alternator regulator to produce net energy, and the alternator will charge at 110-130A constant current until voltage tapers off at 13.2-14.8V depending on if the car thinks in needs to "desulfate" the lead-acid battery that's not there. It's such a fun technology. The brand of supercap is "GDCPH" off of aliexpress, about $30 per cap, 3.84Wh each. One thing us supercap-only users need to add to the arsenal is an extremely high-current boost regulator that runs down as close to 0V as possible. Since these caps can discharge huge currents at low voltage, often they meet the requirements to start engines, but the voltage is in a "deadzone" to actually run the electronics and spark plugs. For me, that's under about 6.5V. If it can boost to 12V at a pack voltage of 3V, for example, charging or jumping with other batteries or equipment will never be necessary. This is fine for the alternator because it stays self-powered after the engine cranks over, and shouldn't overheat in the 20-30 seconds it takes to charge the caps up.

If they do, they appear to be significantly less affected by it. Their number of charge/discharge cycles before wearing out is apparently much higher than lithium based batteries.

Basically, no.

graphene caps last millions of hours lithium lasts 600 to 1000 charges .

@@joshnabours9102 Don't mix up discharge-cycles with battery lifetime. LiPo degrade not just with cycles but with Time as well. Extrapolating long lifetimes just cause of low cycle-degradation is one of the biggest marketing-scams that companies (like Tesla) have. (That is also the reason why Tesla is giving a long but limited warranty on their batteries. After ~8-9 years they start just failing - that is quit a decent time for Lithium-based batteries, but it is also the reason why the first gen of Teslas are basically electric garbage now cause replacing the battery alone costs as much as a new car of other companies).

@@ABaumstumpf the fact is, most people consider the discharge cycles the useful lifetime of the battery in the vast majority of devices. So it is a better figure to use when you don't know the technical understanding of the person you are talking to. It is also a better figure to use since anyone who used the object daily will typically meet the cycle limits before the cell fails due to age. Not to mention the question involved lithium dendrite formation. Not battery life if stored for years. Also, just in case you missed it while reading my first comment, I wast talking about lithium ion capacitors. Not lithium ion batteries. Additionally, the actual measure of reliability for the whole electronics industry, mean time between failure (MTBF), is something that changes to a degree based on the battery pack design, cell chemistry, cell type, and the like. It involves math and technical understanding to calculate the MTBF for a battery pack. This is why advertisers never mention it. It does not make sense to reference that when talking to the average person. You have to know your audience and choose your words accordingly in technical explanations. And when in doubt you go with the thing you know the other person will understand. Even if it is not technically 100% accurate in all ways. That is one of the first things you have to figure out working in a technical field. When to use what jargon and when to use what level of analogies.

The LiC capacitors do have enough terminal voltage to make a good charge-pump ballincing circuit for LiFePO4

if it says mah then ist a battery. it might say something else but mah is only usefull on a battery. a battery needs more monitoring and doesnt life as long tho.

Weirdly, the component comes in a package that looks like a big capacitor.

That is not the role of a "start capacitor". It doesn't store energy for startup, it is there to create a phase shift in a motor winding.

Seems like a pain to need to keep capacitors protected from low voltage.

On ebay I se a lot of them low price $ 4/5/6 I am realy interesed if they can colected like a batery pack. But a lot of questions for me about BMS etc..

Thanks mate :-)

Maybe as a #short. I will see ;-)

And cant be fully discharged, still contains lithium and has all the same problems as a lithium battery. Doesnt seem like an improvement to me. It's just a less capable lithium battery. The advantage of regular super caps is that you can store and dump massive amounts of current without risking damage to the capacitor and these negate that advantage.

@@darkworlddenizen way longer sevice life and more temparature resistant.

@@SuperUltimateLP Yeah, assuming they eventually get the price down to near normal super caps, these would be great replacements for super low energy devices such as those solar calculators or remote controls.

@@SuperUltimateLP supercaps are only "temperature resistant" when not charged (but still better than a Li battery). In order to get ~10yr life at 70C from a 2.3V supercap (rated for 2000 hrs at rated voltage), we never charge above 1V. This means we need many in series... which multiplies the ESR... which means we needed even more in series, which reduces overall capacitance but eventually results in enough usable energy storage. Usable energy does NOT go to 0V. Even high complexity buck+boost/sepic converts only go down to ~1.2V. Factor in the I x ESR voltage drop and you see why so many are required in series (with a complex balancing circuit b/c tolerance is so sloppy)

You need to look into putting capacitors in series … you won’t like what happens 🤷🏻‍♂️

It's about finding a common multiplier! Simple as that. You can't deliver more energy out than what's put in? Just because something has the capacity for 450volts doesn't mean if you give it 3.7v that you might somehow get back 450 through some internal voltage multiplier? It doesn't work that way. They can act like a buffer because the current follows and path of least resistance? There is more internal resistance in batteries than in capacious so the caps will charge first! It's like similar to data flow on solid state drives. Think of battery storage and performance like data storage and performance? Capacitors are like RAM performance Then Lithium ion batteries are likes solid state drives and everything else older is like hard disk HDDs.

@@Jarmezrocks I won't philosophise that much about it, but indeed, the intent here is to use the LIC's as buffer capacity. The only difference is that their high capacitance can buffer longer current surges of around half a second compared to classic capacitors that only just equalise current peaks caused by motor spools and electronic voltage regulators (also called Choppers).

@@Jarmezrocks The voltage rating of capacitors refers to the maximum voltage that they are allowed to take. Above this voltage rate, they usually start to leak or short circuit internally, in other words: loose energy in the form of heat. A capacitor rated at 3.5v will surely flatten 30v peaks, but they will heat up and become inefficient instead of just acting like a buffer.

@@22KaTsh what happens ? What if I build a 1s drone with it ?

What would you know? You only invented their precursors

Sounds possible though ;-)

Maybe not useful for anything electronic but for an artisan building an art piece? Would be a godsend

@@Julio-yy4ll could for example be useful to repair a drone lion pack in the field.

They already have been selling for decades large 1F ++ supercapasitors for car stereo and also other uses that is meant to be used in combination with your car or camper van battery bank. It helps the battery by handling the large short currents spikes (like when starting electric engines or bass in car stereo) giving the battery longer life and also give you more power for handling power spikes.

We don't need to imagine batteries that explode, it already happens like all the time with phones.

That voltage is only constant as long as you keep the draw on power so low that the internal resistance have little effect. You will need a really large battery bank to run a spot welder directly from it.

a cap at 63% of it's starting voltage is considered discharged. that makes it even tighter.

The energy recovered from regenerative braking is comparatively quite low, enough for the batteries to handle. It’s at most 100kJ

I believe supercapacitors are already used in some light rail lines in the world where portions of the route are not electrified for various reasons. Also, apparently Mazda uses supercapacitors in their "i-ELOOP" system. According to their page though, it looks like they only use it for powering electrical systems like the headlights and audio, as the cars aren't hybrids. I question whether it's better than just using a lithium battery pack, though. In any case, I think using supercaps would just be some halfway solution to the problem, and the ultimate solution is that we just create better batteries.

@@ConsciousBreaks You can't just "create better batteries" out of nothing. Maybe there's a composition better than LiIon, at an affordable price that will eventually be discovered. But there could just as well be no such thing.

I imagine they might use them in Formula E perhaps

@@westelaudio943 Well, I was being semi-facetious about that part. And to be clear, there are several promising (lithium) battery chemistries that already exist that are way better than current chemistries(e.g. NCA) used in EVs. For example, Li-S batteries have more than double the specific energy of current cells, but still need more R&D towards improving cell degradation.

10 sec of 360kW of M3P discharge is 1kWh. If we want to reduce the load of 5C of the 72kWh battery to 2C, we need to store 600Wh in the LIC buffer, which is about 500 units and has a price tag of $12,500. No way.

At the current price tag, they don't make sense, but if the price come down they might. Maybe think about possibility of a dual battery: "Normal" primary battery, for most of the energy: Regen/top battery, to allow more powerful regen, to gradually take over charging session on top, when the primary battery can't accept much power. But of course there is energy density, and price tag. I don't think we'll see it in the near future, but our kids might.

Breaking could benefit also. Maybe even ending the need for disk brakes.

@@gmourao I think powerful regen braking, at least could mitigate the need for mechanical brakes. But I think still mechanical brakes would be needed. However, the main purpose for disc brakes is for ventilation purpose. I you reduce the need for active use of mechanical brakes while driving, drum brakes come forward as a possibly better option. Especially in colder climate, where they use salt on the road during winter, drum brakes have the advantage of being a closed system, not being exposed to the elements the same way.

No problem 👍

A place called *Battery Hook Up* (all one word. Another blocked word uggg) usually keeps Headways in stock. I've bought from them before and they are reputable.

@@AnthonyGoodley nice advertisement, brotha. keep grinding

@@lordjaashin To be clear I am in no way affiliated with either those batteries or the company I mentioned. I only mention Headway batteries because for one thing they are relevant to this video. Two they are very impressive out of all types of battery technology. Look them up and you will see too. Car audio competition people use these batteries. How loud can we get sorta thing. When your pumping so many watts that not even two or three alternators are enough then they use Headways. These are not cheap batteries at all. But you get what you pay for as the saying goes.

Glad you like it!

What makes you think LTO are comparable in any way? Just curious. I am a lto battery business and have worked with then hands in extensively and the best they'll do is a 10c discharge, and that's pushing it. There is a variant prismatic type of LTO that does 20C pretty easily though. Specific energy is pretty low as well. But overall they are great, they have a 20 to 30,000 cycle life, and can work in extreme high and low temperatures without any problems. They are already used in China for public transportation buses and other similar auto uses.

I was about to bring up LTO cells which are the specific Li Ion cells that share the anode used in Lics (thus both share great power characteristics compared to other lithium or battery chemistries). People looking for high power density and usable energy density are more likely better served with a pure LTO cell pack rather a LICS and battery hybrid pack. What is NOT discussed in this video is 1) the charge to voltage curve of LICS; they are not congruent with li ion cells. Thus to build a hybrid pack, you need a DCDC voltage converter to control the power balance between the LICS and battery cells. This adds weight, complexity and energy loss to the equation. 2) The resistance of LICS or SCs in general are higher than battery cells. Of course, the pack configurations will be different whether you build a battery pack or LICS pack. But this should be the case for pretty much any usable pack configuration based on power, energy, weight or packaging requirements

You state LTOs are better than other lithium chemistries. I would challenge that stating that its dependent on what the use case is. LTOs are great where you need a lot of power, but not if you need a lot of energy. Maybe the 12v pack on a conventional vehicle where you need a lot of cold crank amps and the energy is not critical since the alternator takes over once you get the engine started. Not really for an EV where we are chasing more range; we have seen this with Tesla who has reserved their energy dense NMCs for their higher end applications such as CT and their LFEs for the M3.

@@brianwong6195 agreed. The only time LTO has been used for EV purposes is in China with their public transport bus system. Other than that there are only reserved for certain applications.

@@OrionHCCC26 Yeah I just read about that use case. Really cool! LTOs were a good balance of just enough energy and power density to do a a few loops.

yep scott is german

"Ba-da-wees" I love the way he says batteries

It’s German with the “weewy??” lisp

I don't throw away old projects. It is a bless and nightmare at the same time

@@greatscottlab i try to keep most of my projects, but sometimes, i need to borrow some parts for another project, usually is a IRLZ44N that i have to borrow 🤣

No problem ;-) I have lots of fun

I actually did a video about it years ago ;-) kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qtqnprCorMWrk6M.html

No problem 👍

Li-Ion comes in a capacitor form-factor too, these tall green things - usually used in E-cigs. This is like how some MOSFETs come in a DIP-8 package - only by checking the traces can you tell at a glance, it is NOT an op-amp! Then again, TO-92 / SOT-23 is a nightmare, with basically every silicon component under the sun being packaged in these footprints, your only hope is to memorize the part numbers!