ScannerDanner good point, did the starter still make the classic "loud click" in that case?

I don't remember, this was probably 15 years ago. What I do remember is the owner selling the car for $500 to our transmission instructor at the school, so I was made fully aware of my misdiagnosis. I still feel really bad about that one. The car was probably worth $3500-4000

I bet that was hard to explain afterwards. :)) he did a very wise thing fairly early on, tried to turn it over by hand!

Parece que o motor não aguentou, aqui no Brasil pra por tudo novo tem custo elevado.

agreed if I didn't see that hole I was pulling a few things off of that engine first, serp belt and starter

but once you learn it its easy

lol yes it did

haha nice

not sure if I saw the mini video

Loser :-)

That's true. Voltage drop is not only a function of resistance, but also current draw. E = I x R. A starter trying to turn a seized engine is going to draw more current. It will also get very hot, thus the smoke. It's also possible to damage the internal windings / brushes, commutator etc.

I wondered if the starter motor heat or the high amperage affected the voltage drop

It's A pretty well accepted fact that heat in a wire will increase it's resistance and increase the voltage drop across the wire as a result (ohms law). It's sort of a better known fact that voltage drop will increase due to the increased current in the wire (ohm's law) and this will generally be the most important, or greatest cause regardless of temperature change. So you have both things going on here, but the primary cause of the voltage drop is High current which is also the cause of the increased heat in everything. I other words, If you measured the voltage drop before the temperature of the wire had a chance to go up, you would have measured the higher voltage drop, and then it would have increase to some degree as the heat increased. Even if you could keep the wires cold somehow, you would still see the increased voltage drop across with wires. Why the high current in the first place? Locked rotor on the starter motor due to the seized engine. If you look at many motor specs in general they will have a spec called 'Locked rotor current' which is always extremely high. It might be an interesting experiment to measure the resistance of one of the wires when it's cold, and then again when it's hot with your ohm meter. If the current is known, then one can calculate the voltage drop across that wire (E = I x R). I feel that understanding this can also be quite helpful in troubleshooting things like voltage drops across the ground in a car and other wiring connections. If you're getting a high drop, but you know your current is low, you know you have a bad (corroded or whatever) ground. If you're getting a higher drop, but your current is high, than it could be normal. It's good to be able to measure current draw at times.

high resistance is WHAT affected the voltage drop..and high resistance is about either too much current or too little wire..you know, it is always one relative to the other..i tend to believe that heat is only a byproduct/effect of high resistance, not the cause..scannerdanner would disagree, though..ok, let me rephrase, maybe not a byproduct per se..bcus, I think both resistance and heat come together hand in hand..simultaneously..shouldnt view them separately..bcus, even if u were to alaska at -45 celsius, the heat would still be produced, but dissipated to the environment at a much faster rate..

It's always good to look at wires in any circuit as resistors. The amount of heat in a wire or resistor (same thing) is caused by the amount of current flow. The higher the current flow, the higher the heat. There is a heat coefficient to the resistance which is usually positive, but it's always a byproduct of current. The more electrons being pushed through a resistor, the more drag on the stationary (not free) electrons causing heat. Heat will make the resistance increase, but it's the tail of the dog, not the dog. As I already mentioned, the high current and thus higher than normal voltage drop on the wires in the starter circuit is caused by the locked rotor. Locked rotor current on a starter motor can be 3-4 times the normal current draw. This is where the heat is coming from, and yes will cause the resistance of the wire to increase and thus cause a larger voltage drop, but not as much as the current variation. Ohm's law IS a law. E = I x R which we can apply to one of the wires. Just for an example we'll say that the resistance of one of the wires is 0.01 ohms. For our example I'll use 200 amps for locked rotor, and 60 amps for normal current on the starter if the engine turns over. The numbers I'm using are arbitrary, but the math is what's important. E(voltage drop across the wire) = 200 X 0.01 = 2 volts for the locked rotor. E = 60 X 0.01 = 600 mv. This is basic electrical theory that applies in all fields, automotive being one of them. Another factor to consider is the size of the wire when considering it's resistance and temperature. Looking at an electrical code book we see that wire sizes are related to the amperage being carried by the wire. Most starter wires on cars are sized large enough (gauge) to be able to maintain a certain amount of reasonable starter current for a reasonable amount of time. Locked rotor current will often exceed wire ratings, and this will cause the wire to heat up faster, and to a higher temperature, possibly damaging the wires as well as the starter because the windings, commutator, brushes were also not meant for locked rotor current and will happen if one keeps the key on too long. One saving factor is if the battery is not in such great condition and can only deliver a limited amount of current. Bottom line, I don't think it's good troubleshooting practice to assume that higher than normal voltage drops on wires is simply due to heat. It's better to think in terms of current in circuits first and foremost, but not forgetting that heat will increase the resistance to some degree which will in turn increase E drop on the wire to some degree. It does take a fairly substantial temperature increase on a wire to change it's resistance significantly. Here's some info on that topic: www.cirris.com/learning-center/general-testing/special-topics/177-temperature-coefficient-of-copper

lol no

that is the more alarming part, they live, breathe and drive among us :))

Nick Johnson Woman driver

haha, but no guarantee it was a woman driver, plenty of snowflakes about ;0

my old chevy iron will crank over and fire up burning the alt belt off. I know cause water has frozen inside the alt's more than once and bearing seizures, stupid 90's+ vans, the 80's and older vans everything was further back and you'd have to garden hose spray directly to ice them up. the "hot" college grad engineers, were winners yet again. what pleases me, is they have to deal with their own fsckups as it breaks down on them! :))

I have some pictures I will upload to the facebook page, waiting to see what happens with this veh

5Dale65 kinda lost here , so your saying lift the car one side with the longer axle,which is the driven shaft correct ?then spin by hand ,if it spins then it's okay ,if not engine seized ?thanks

what ended up being the diagnosis and did you get it fixed?

probably radio blaring right until it died

It’s possible that the starter could jam in the flywheel and cause it not to turn. Remove the starter and see if it turns. I’ve also seen ac compressors lock up and create the same scenario. So you could remove the serp belt too

@@PositiveLeadDiagnostics can that make my car turn off while driving?

Very unlikely. If the ac compressor locked up while driving it would probably smoke the belt first.

@@PositiveLeadDiagnostics the belt did not smoke. What can be my next idea off why it turned off while driving. Battery is also fine

Try to turn the engine with a ratchet

What's your question

what if the "they" is you and your telling yourself you need an engine, that would suck too lol

Positive Lead Diagnostics yeah, been there 🤑

are ya supposed to change or check the black syrup?

Airman Collect your hour diag.