I've always thought this was an interesting topic and it's more relevant than ever with bands like Knocked Loose and Code Orange being talked about adjacently with punk. So how did the waters get muddied between hardcore punk and metal and why does the distinction matter?! You can let me know your opinions on it below, as I think this debate/discourse is really fun to talk about and wonder on. But for now, cheers, rock on, stay heavy and have yourselves a fantastic rest of your day or night, depending on when you see this!!!!!!! 🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘

I agree, and I think another reason that many think hardcore is metal is that some people in the metal scene tend to think, “Well I like this, so it belongs in the genre I like” rather than just accepting they like something that isn’t in their genre of choice.

I listen to both punk (hardcore and other types) and metal (all over the place) and since both come from rock (I listen to other types of rock too) I just say I listen to rock when discussing my music taste.

sonically, metal and hardcore have been intertwined since the New York Hardcore scene started gaining traction and Crossover Thrash started gaining prominence. the bands that came before, mainly bands like Black Flag or Bad Brains, aren't metal, but ever since new york bands like Cro-Mags or Leeway started blending Thrash and Speed Metal with hardcore punk, i feel that "hardcore" has been super synonymous with metal and that the "punk" aspect has been less prominent. and even in the 90's after bands like Pantera and Sepultura started adding super groovy riffs into metal, you see bands like Merauder, Hatebreed, and Void Of Vision implement that same style of heavy groovy riffs into the already thrash-influenced hardcore sound. and especially in todays era where we have hardcore bands like Drain, Gods Hate, Harms Way, Pain Of Truth, Speed, etc, you definitely hear a shit ton of metal influence in their sounds, or vice versa with metal bands that have a huge hardcore influence like Dying Fetus, Kruelty, and 200 Stab Wounds So while culturally i do think that the hardcore crowds and metal crowds are separated, i think that sonically the lines have been super blurred ever since the NYHC bands of the late 80's started gaining traction, and even more so after the heavily groove metal-inspired bands of the mid 90's

It's interesting to me to see that in their origins the musical ethos of punk rock and heavy metal are the exact opposites of one another. Whereas metal - while stripping away it's blues rock origins during the 70s - went for more bombast, cleaner production and more progressive tendencies, punk went the complete opposite direction: strip away the musical flourishes, raw and simple pop songs is what it's all about. The two music styles got closer together once the punk bands from the early 80s started ramping up the speed and aggression towards what we now know as hardcore (punk) while certain metal bands at the time took notice and infused the new template with their brand of classic heavy metal: thus thrash metal was born. Personally I think that musically the punk element in modern metalcore is very watered down (unfortunately for me) and I've always giggled at metalheads telling me that they're "not into hardcore metal like Madball or Agnostic Front" and such... "Dude, it's punk!" In the end though this argument never really mattered to me anyway. Politically speaking, I've never related to leftwing punk rockers or rightwing metalheads and fashion wise I was always the guy showing up at metal or hardcore shows wearing Pall Mall jeans and an Armani shirt, sticking out like a sore thumb 🤣

Didn't expect to see such an insightful video coming from someone who's more of a metalhead, very cool

The biggest thing for me is the differences in the scene. I live in an arena where the scene isnt big, so death metal bands would often have to share venues with hardcore bands. You can easily tell who showed up for which band. I just want to headbang without defending myself from karate kids.

My only contention with this video is that you said metal and punk rose together in the same era. I'm pretty sure you meant punk and rock as metal only really begun in the 70s with Black Sabbath whereas both rock and punk begun much earlier, depending on who you ask the earliest considered for both are in the 50s or 60s. Another point of confusion is whether metal itself is rock or its own thing. Until the past couple of years or so the music industry itself still treated metal as a whole as a sub-genre of rock, as can be seen in rock radio stations, rock billboard charts, rock Grammys, etc. It's only in the past year or 2 that the Grammys finally separated the metal awards from the rock awards, creating a new category. Why did I bring this up? Because the people that say metal is a sub-genre of rock typically say it because metal uses the same classic instrumental lineup of rock: lead guitar, rhythm guitar, bass guitar and typically a vocalist. Surprise, surprise but this is also the exact same lineup punk and hardcore bands use. Thus it's easy to lump in punk and hardcore along with rock and metal into 1 gigantic group, being completely oblivious to the subtle and not so subtle differences between the 3 genres. It also doesn't help that as you said there is a whole lot of overlap among these 3 genres, and not just in specific sub-genres like the above mentioned metalcore but as much broader influences in places you wouldn't normally expect them.

I love this topic! I agree with you that hardcore is separate from metal, but my reasoning is a bit different from yours so I thought I'd share my two cents. I'm a big fan of the idea of a loose category of crossover genres when the influences from either side are too important to ever exclude either of them from the genre's definition. I see them as a marriage between two families where the new union is a part of both regardless of which family name the couple take or which side has the most influence. A reason for this is that, while I don't draw a hard line between hardcore and metal in these circumstances, I do consider the concept of genre to be completely separate from culture, scene, movement, style etc. Genre is an artistic term that defines a set of creative elements in the medium. It does not include things like fashion, attitudes, ideals or politics unless those are a core part of the creative product . Like in glam metal or visual kei where the fashion is a big part of the performance, but if a band like Cannibal Corpse put out an album with a cutesy cover that otherwise sounded exactly like their other releases it wouldn't stop being metal. It would be weird and put people off for sure, but if the music is metal it's metal.. All of those other things are always valid when describing the culture, scene etc but should have no bearing on whether something is musically hardcore or metal. Anyways, awesome video. Happy I found this channel!

I'd say sludge and grindcore are pretty much metal made by punks

Motorhead really got me to blur the lines between metal and punk

I don't think we can talk about the development of hardcore punk without mentioning Metal as a whole. Most early Hardcore artists were heavily inspired by metal, and after a while some even started incorporating different material for the creation of different styles (crossover thrash, sludge, metalcore, etc). And the fact that most Extreme metal wouldnt exist without Crust Punk legends like Discharge or with the Blast beat addiction of Hardcore like Siege, is a reason why this genre separation is goofy and we should all just call those things heavy rock lmao. Anyways, imo Metal always contributed with the riffs and groove, and punk with drumming and attitude.

It's a complicated issue. BTW the first time I heard the term 'metalcore' was the thrash metal band Mace's 1985 album Process of Elimination (the song 'M.A.C.E.')

Let me say this, if one of the punk bands started their career with experimenting their sound with metal, then they’re objectively a fusion metal band. Sure, they can label themselves punk but their sound will overshadow their identity. Most or half metal bands don’t consider themselves as metal either. Let’s use Phil Anselmo for example, he labeled himself a rock star, not a metal band, but we call Pantera a metal band. Music styles creates genres.

I just say to people I’m a fan of heavy music. I love both hardcore and metal so it’s always just a good way to lump them together like that.

I feel like these days the lines are really gray. Classic hardcore like Agnostic front or Minor threat are clearly punk but once you reach beatdown it sometimes gets really hard to distinguish. Is Knocked Loose or Kublai Khan metal? Maybe? I don't know! It almost seems to me that modern hardcore is almost a separate thing culturally and musically than punk or metal. Music keeps evolving and is destined to split off eventually.

Havent even watched the video uet but i know im gonna like it. Theres always discourse cause metal dudes hear hardcore are like "oh i like this" but then come to our shows thinking we play by their rules. We respect their scene and how they do things , but they gotta respect our scene aswell

Eh… I say in the modern day the genres have kinda fused. The biggest hardcore band in the modern era- code orange (I think I’m an Emo crab core metalcore fan so…) has huge metal influences and came out with a ñu metal album. I think in the 80s there was more separation but both genres sound fairly similar with metal core and production you can barely tell apart post hardcore, metal core, hardcore and whatever the hell a day to remeber is. This is just my opinion but this vid was great just found ur channel and ur stuff is epic 🤙🤙🤙

Nicely put. I think one thing that was missed just slightly (and verges on archaeology at this point is how metal evolved from the "Rockers" in the UK, while punk was birthed out of Glam people who turned into punks, in part, because of it's adventuresome approach to fashion.

It’s metal adjacent. Not metal but definitely the half brother of Metalcore. You can ebb and flow out of em super easily

I got that same russle sticker on the back of the phone I’m watching this video on 🍻

I think both can go around. For example, Fentanyl and Caveman are straight up hardcore. But Population Reduction and Knocked Loose are hardcore with a lot of metal, but I don't think they're not grindcore nor metalcore. It's weird, but I dig it.

Every Time I Die is both a punk band and metal band. They're considered hardcore punk and metalcore with a little sprinkle of southern rock.

Well the evolution of hardcore has definitely gone into a much more metallic direction over the years. You do have a lot of bands still have a lot of punk in their music (turnstile,scowl). However since crossover thrash metal has really impacted hardcore in profound ways. Hardcore has also impacted metal. A huge chunk of metal’s biggest bands are a fusion of hardcore and metal. The waters have been so blurred saying hardcore isn’t a part of metal as well as punk doesn’t feel accurate. The differences between metal and hardcore are more cultural than sonic at this point. Punk and metal are constantly influencing each other since the start (Sabbath was a big influence on the Ramones). You really can’t talk about one without the other and hardcore is really the place where they meet. Hardcore is definitely a part of metal as much as it is punk at this point.

Motorhead says fuck this

To me, the only true fusion of Metal and Hardcore was First Wave Metalcore or "Metallic Hardcore". (Bands like Earth Crisis, Integrity, Hatebreed, Converge, Ringworm, Norma Jean, etc.) I know it sounds kinda cold but I never really considered anything that came after this first wave to be actual Metal. Bullet For My Valentine, Asking Alexandria, Bring Me The Horizon, Avenged Sevenfold, Motionless in White, etc. Basically any band that was on the bill for Warped Tour isn't Metal. But just because they may not be Metal, that of course doesn't mean these bands are bad or not heavy. Just because something isn't metal doesn't mean it's not heavy. In fact, there are some Metal bands that aren't NEARLY as heavy as some core bands. (EDIT) I also think that Crossover Thrash, Sludge and Grindcore are valid fusions of Metal and Hardcore. I don't know how I could have forgotten those. Some of my favorite bands ever identify as either of these.

I like both

Definitely is not. I had friends who would drag me to As I Lay Dying shows back in the day who would recoil when I showed them Cro-Mags

Hardcore punk (you see there is punk not metal)

From what I understand, the distinction comes from separating hardcore punk from the early-mid 80s and hardcore from the late 80s-early 90s as two distinct genres

So brother , what consider Sludge ? EHG are Hardcore to my ears

Hardcore Punk is pretty much a UK "thing", an attempt to crib the progenitors of Punk, the Ramones (MADE IN AMERICA!). The idea is a three-chord, speedy-tempo, gutter-trash worldview style of music that pays dues to sixties du-wop. The Ramones have been described as "Beach Boys on Bath Salts", which is as effective a description as any. Metal, on the other hand, came out as a sludgy, doom-laden down-tempo blues, an antithesis and habitual watchdog of all the peace-and-love hippie pretense that defined the late '60s rock scene. Punk is informed by the latter more than the former--in fact, the former wasn't even part of the package up until speed-thrash sewed them together. The main reason I don't lump them together, however, is that metal does not concern itself with contemporary mores in an allegorical or colloquial fashion. Most metal bands refer to history, mythology, or anything that isn't "current year". Iron Maiden, Iced Earth and Black Sabbath are cases in point. Scandinavian black metal is obsessed with trolling and shock/death metal in going too far. The Ramones were more contemporary in their lyrical approach, while Green Day's rock opera American Idiot savages the late '90s caricature of aimless middle American riffraff. Johnny Rotten tried hard to piss people off, but the only way he'll do it today is by supporting Trump (AND SOME PEOPLE DESERVE TO BE PISSED OFF!), while the Offspring's lyrical output in the '90s & '00s ring very similar to what conservatives have been lamenting for decades well ahead of even them. It's strange, really. So, I say it is a UK "thing" because a bunch of working class lowlifes in that country used it as an excuse to parade around with unpleasant behavior just to get noticed, which inspired a parade of stateside imitators back in the nineties (grunge), and invariably shot down any attempt by the Ramones to actually reap the benefits of their own contributions while they were still alive and not a FUCKING DEATH FACTORY~! So, you saying "Hardcore Punk isn't Metal" is more than its fair share of compliment, man.

Honestly, I think of hc as its own thing - neither punk nor metal.

Okay, I understand you're just saying Hardcore punk is not metal. Then what?

not to be a meanie, but usually "hardcore punk" refers more to stuff that sounds more like minor threat or black flag, while "hardcore" is all the metallic stuff. it might seem pedantic, but hardcore kids don't really call themselves punks, because that's a different thing musically and culturally. sorry if i came off rude!

Bro who has ever claimed that

Anything with core in it isn’t metal because not all heavy music is metal

literally no one said this bro

Is there a difference between metallic hardcore and metalcore? According to everynoise it is, and it makes sense. And melodic hardcore is basically metalcore a lot of the time? We need better names for these subgenres lul.

Someday when you reach puberty you'll stop fixating on genre boundaries and just enjoy music.

Did nobody know that hardcore punk and metal have entirely different music structures which make the genres different?

If we think Hardcore and Metal are mixed then there goes Thrash, Cross Over Thrash, Thrash Core, Crust Grind, Grind Core, Deathcore, Metalcore and that's what it gets Many Metal bands referenced their influences from Hardcore Punk and Hardcore primarily but indeed Hardcore is not Metal its just an influenced to Metal for many years.

Obviously not. It is punk

I mean that was pretty obvious that screamo emo and post-hardcore were never metal because they're more personal aggressive and strip down and aslo knock loose will always be a hardcore band in my eyes because of the vocals the stylistic and even the lyrics

Do I think hardcore punk is metal NO because they're different genres of music lol

Who the fuck says hardcore is metal?

Hardcore sucks.

I feel like when you get a 3D girlfriend and like a career where you’re around other humans, you stop caring