Seth being low on Arcane Denial because they go up on cards, but rarely paying the 1 is the ultimate irony.

'You haven't seen scary Magic until you've seen.. You: Turn 1 Swamp, Ritual, Necro. Opponent: Force of Will! You: Nah, Force of Will that!'

Richard got Counterspelled from the podcast this week.

I'm with Crim on Arcane Denial being S tier: - It can counter anything - It's easier to cast than Counterspell, which is double blue - Your opponent is up one card, but you countered their best card so that's okay - Your other opponents and yourself are card neutral - You replace it by drawing a card on the next turn's upkeep - Your opponent doesn't get these two new cards until the next turn's upkeep - Doesn't matter if there are 2, 3 or 4 players on the table, the outcome is always the same (opponent is up one card, but their best spell got countered, while the rest of the players are card neutral)

I think Swan Song debate was one of the best ways to see the difference in the crew's goals with their countermagic. Swan Song is great defensively; like Tomer said, you mostly want to deal with targeted removal and/or wraths. If you're trying to use your counters not to protect your board but to aggressively stop your opponent's plan, then swan song isn't always as effective.

Man, I would have really loved (or maybe hated) to hear Richard, aka Mr-Literally-Insane-Takes, rank counterspells.

I really like running Wash Away, 1 mana to hit commanders and anything coming out of exile or graveyards. 3 mana for the cleave is pretty steep, but works when you need it.

50:19 Tomer just getting so excited to jump in about arcane denial is absolutely hilarious

I gotta tell you, even with mana burn and 20 life people still drooled over Mana Drain. You're not gonna rank it down if you can't always spend it all and take 2 or 3 damage once in a while, you're gonna just take the damage and be extremely happy.

I like how Seth will extoll how great Generous Gift is for how it can hit any permanent, but then would rather use a counterspell that is more restricted than pay 1 more mana to be able to hit a larger swath of targets.

Stubborn Denial is a personal favorite of mine for creature heavy blue decks

Great discussion! Especially the relative (dis)advantage around arcane denial. However, I think you guys often underestimate the potential tempo hit that comes with tapped land MDFCs. Not playing your spells on curve often times means you're just skipping your turn.

Counterspells with a payout are good politically. That's why Offer and Arcane Denial are great because there's compensation on the backend. People get angry when you counter their shit, so giving them a parting gift takes the sting out a lot.

Saff, Arcane Denial is the best counterspell, because it gives your opponents THE LEAST card advantage. If you assume everyone has 5 cards in hand and you Arcane Denial then it becomes (6,5,5,5) so 1 opponent has card advantage over you. If you use normal Counterspell it becomes 5,5,4,4 and two opponents have card advantage over you. Not only that, but the two cards you gave them take the sting out of the counter and they are less likely to come after you.

Ertai is sneakily one of the best cards in legendary matters decks. A counter that you can find off of Sisay, draws you a card or gains value off of any of your historic or legendary payoffs, triggers your legendary cascade in Jodah.. love the pick Crim. Great show guys!

I love Negates in Commander. I find that there aren’t as many Creatures that I want to counter, plus there are plenty of times when I want my opponent’s Creature around to attack the other opponents. If I hate a creature, I’d rather use removal (as long as it can be removed)

Anyone remember when they all gave Jwari Disruption a "D" in the MDFC tier list? 😊

Seth Arcane Denial can also counter your own spell if you're stuck top decking to draw 3 cards. I've used it for that a few times.

One of my favorite counter spells is Stubborn Denial. In the decks I play it's often Fierce Guardianship #2 since I have several creatures and my commander that have 4+ power and it has the upside that it is a one mana Negate that operates without my Commander in play. And best of all it's cheap!

I’m shocked no one brought up Craterhoof during the Tale’s End discussion. Such a common finisher, and most decks don’t plan for stifle effects, so odds are this just completely blows those decks out. Also, Jazal Goldmane (aka white’s Craterhoof), while it doesn’t see as much play, is almost just as powerful, and it uses an activated ability.

58:47 Fierce Guardianship is A S S!

Love these can you guys do a board wipe one since you all seem to like different ones

My pet 'counterspell' is Commandeer. it costs 5UU, gains control of a noncreature spell, and chooses new targets. You can also exile two blue cards from hand to cast it for free! Obviously it comes at a steep cost and you get absolutely blown out if it's countered, BUT when it works it can be super powerful. Works well in mono blue decks that leverage card advantage. Certainly risky but it's got lots of style.

I think the list is good. I am 100% in agreement with Crim on Drown in the Loch. Fantastic card that I play in the majority of cards in Dimir-containing decks.

I love that Arcane Denial essentially acts as a "Sacrifice a Spell on the Stack: Draw three cards." It's niche, but divination with upside is why we play Mulldrifter :)

Pretty sad that Cryptic Command wasn't mentioned (or bashed, even) anywhere :(

I can't believe it took me this long to realise that Seth loves Mana Tithe because he doesn't believe in paying the 1!!

I'm a big fan of Foil, closest thing I feel to a budget version of force of will.

Thank you Tomer for bringing up Ur-Dragon when talking about Fierce Guardianship, it's literally the deck I had in mind where I don't play it.

This season on Commander Clash someone has to Tale’s End an upkeep trigger from Nahiri’s Resolve.

Swan Song haunts me. I Swan Song countered a Cultivate. The table teamed up on my to make that bird kill me. While absolutely hilarious, it was also haunting... lol.

Would a card neutral Arcane Denial - draw 1, opp draws 1 for UU be too good? Basically og counterspell but updated for commander.

Surprised nobody mentioned wash away as an honourable mention at least. It's an easy top 10 spell in my opinion, but then again people in my pod actually cast their commanders lol

I love the 5 mana counterspells that make artifact tokens (Confirm Suspicions, Spell Swindle, and Access Denied), they're mostly pretty bad but they're so fun in a deck that can use the tokens. Also shoutout to disallow, voidslime, and cryptic command

This video had so many hot takes I can’t even finish. Arcane Denial, a straight D counterspell, at rank 3? Trickery and Tale’s End and Jwari Disruption above FoW? My head hurts…

No love for "Muddle the Mixture"? 😢

Damn Tomer! You low key called the return of legendary instants 😮

Obeka is the Stifle themed deck. I run Stifle, Defabricate, and Ertai Resurrected in my Obeka deck for insurance for a Final Fortune trigger possibly going off at a bad time. It's cute when I Stifle my own bounce land trigger on turn 2 or 3 to ramp. One time though I Stifled someone's Mechtitan Core activation and they went from a leading position to just about taken out of the game from it.

My favorite counterspell is Spell Swindle. Five mana definitely keeps it from actually being good, but it is still so fun the one time it works.

I’ve always enjoyed Narset’s Reversal, even though it’s only a soft counterspell

Honorable mention MYSTIC SNAKE! 🐍🐍🐍 I love blinkable counters that come with a body.

I know this video’s a little older. But one request in terms of editing. Maybe when Tomer or the cast mention a commander like “Elegeth” for Mono-U or Force - maybe show the card on the side of the screen so I can see what it does and if it makes sense!

Another point for Arcane Denial is about playing the card against the turn order. The player you counter may go up cards but are likely tapped out and cant utilize those cards where as the Denial player is up a cared and likely has access to mana still

How are Foil and Pact of Negation not on the List? Oh, I see. No Combo Players.

I run stifle, disallow and voidslime regularly in my bant control deck. The million and a half ETB effects, on attack triggers and activated abilities these days. Dock side, planeswalkers, Thassa's Oracle, combo stopping and negating the benefits of sacrifice all being stuffed make them valuable to me. It may just be my local meta, but I almost always shut someone down with stifle effects. When someone Pods from 5 to 6 sacrificing their five drop and saying 'no' is excellent.

Force of will is fairly low for me because in most of my decks I don't run enough blue spells to make it free so I may as well run a different counter spell

No love for Counterspell? three simple words, best words. And the Ice Age one has the best quote! My hidden tech is not jawari disruption, is Disrupt (from weatherlight!), it cantrips and humiliates at the same time! And not all counterspell are instants like Decree of silence, but I always remember how good I thought Hesitation was, and how bad it actually is :D

How many counterspells is too many for casual? Our playgroup cant decide between 4 and 6 but im curious to what you all think.

Outside cedh, any counterspell that draws a card, arcane denial is probably number 1 but i really like keep safe for protecting my stuff.

Lofty Denial is one of my favorite niche spells. If your Commander has flying…

Crim’s arguments for Arcane Denial are wildly flawed, although I do think it’s a good card in interaction-heavy decks and is fine enough in any blue deck. A 2-mana unconditional counter-anything is pretty strong. 1) He says that the quality of cards in his deck is higher than the opponents’. If that were true, he’d be pubstomping. The quality of the cards in all decks should be close enough to equal to not be able to tell whose is highest. 2) He keeps saying “if your deck is all answers” it’s good. That’s not every deck, not even every one of his decks, so that’s automatically not an S. 3) His arguments for all of them that give the opponent resources hinge on the idea that you’re countering their best spell with the card in question, so what they get out of it can’t be as bad. That’s not always the case. Sometimes you’re countering their second, third, or even fourth best spell. A really good setup spell, a removal spell that will get them out of a lock, etc. The card draw from Arcane Denial or Tibalt’s Trickery or whatever could actually give them their best card. It’s always a risk. Usually worth taking though, even on their fourth best spell. Crim gets caught up on the ideal scenario and tunnel visions on that a lot.

my pod usually ends the game night with an ur dragon deck battle and by turn 3 either i or my group has a ur dragon on the field. you just gotta build right to drop the hammer as fast as possible and it can be done on a budget, especially since exploration was reprinted.

Even thinking of the immense amount of legendaries introduced in tales from middle earth make tales end spicy. Also stifling the ulamog’s cast ability or a cascade from jodah or first sliver can be helpful

Force of Negation is a good counterspell for Sweepers. They're mostly all Sorcery speed and in a sense it's basically the Blue Cleaver Concealment

Jwari disruption on the list but not Mana Leak? Was that printed later or something? New to magic here

A bit niche, but in a Mizzix deck, cards like Syncopate and Condescend can do a lot of work, since they only cost 1 colored-mana to counter any type of spell, plus you get an experience counter

For dovin’s veto, I think it’s good just because if your playing against blue decks they will have counterspells so not being able to be countered is helpful

hindering light. counter with draw attached! SS++

I'm on team fearing other blue players and team stifle so I love Disallow. Desertion is another favorite of mine, what if mind control was also a counter spell.

Helllooo Everyone! - That was a surprising Intro!

All the commander clash crew builds for the mirrors. Seth and Tomer need more board wipes, Seth and Crim need more basics, Tomer shouldn't run path to exile, but Richard should. Blue players should pay the 1 because card advantage matters more in blue than other colors. Phil and Tomer need more protection for their combos. Richard needs stronger wincons. Crim needs to go full deep end with stax and land destruction for troll street cred. And everyone needs more counterspells, (including Crim, to account for the table playing more counterspells).

Not a control player, my favorite counterspell is mage's attendant as it gives you a manatide on a token that you can populate. I dont think i ever got someone with it, but it makes people play around it.

My absolute favorite counter for commander is a card called "Abjure" U instant: Sac a blue permanent: Counter target spell. Minn, Wiley illusionist toekns make great sac fodder

It never ceases to amaze me that people don't include the spells Perplex and Muddle The Mixture. Blows my mind they did not even make honorable mention list. These cards are INSANE. Need a counter to stop someone going off? great - they are counters. What makes them so special is the Transmute ability that turns these spells into an answer for pretty much anything. When building for efficiency, a high percentage of cards in a deck will fall into 2 and 3 mana spells (and you can build around this effect). Is the board insane and you need to clear it? Muddle can grab your Cyclonic Rift or your Black Sun Zenith. Perplex can get Toxic Deluge. Need to get something from the graveyard? There are literally dozens of options. Need spot removal? Most of those cards fall in this range. Or go get your combo piece. Whatever - they do it. The only real problem is you have to be smart about when you cast Perplex - you can't wait until they last spell in a plan because then they will just discard and win anyways. I'd put both above Tales End, Swan Song, Arcane Denial and Jwari, and even above Force of Will in decks that are only splashing blue and won't always have a card to pitch to it. I get that Crim doesn't like to tutor, although that hurts my brain, but I don't think the power of these spells can be ignored even then.

Legendary Instants are back on the menu in LOTR.

I popped of when I saw tales end I love that card

Re: stifle mode on tales end This doesn’t work vs stuff like marionette master because it just stifles one trigger right? Assuming they dump like 20 treasures or something

Crim was spitting straight facts about Arcane Denial. The counter-counteree relationship doesn’t matter nearly as much as how the OTHER two players are doing after your counter war. Like he said, Richard is sitting there laughing all the way to the bank that you spent a card (or two with Force of Will) to answer the thing threatening him while he’s spent zero. With Arcane Denial, you’re now sitting pretty right along with Richard, but you also neutralized the game ending threat, at the small cost of putting that opponent up +1 card. Weird but true, the math just works out way better for Arcane Denial in Commander.

Tale’s end saved my ass against a dockside combo this past weekend. And Tomer was prescient on more and more legendary matters in LTR.

They mentioned the ability for tibalta trickery to be used on yiur own spell thats beinging countered by devins veto. Same thing can happen for arcane denial and you draw 3. Also with cards like bowmasters or notion thief make it even better

Arcane denial is the best budget counterspell, IMO, because: 1. It costs 1U (very very rare for a hard counter to anything to cost that, all of them have caveats such as Delay, Mana Leak or Remand). 2. It is also net 0 for you and leads to the opponent you countered to not be as salty cause you gave him 2 cards. 3. It can cantrip if desperate, for example, you can play a crappy spell you just topdecked and Arcane Denial it, and next upkeep, you will draw 3 cards (not ideal, but can save you in a pinch). Counterspell and Mana Drain are UU and harder to splash as well. Free counters are obviously the best ones (except crappy ones like Foil) but for the most part, Arcane Denial is what I wish all counterspells were and we desperate need another counterspell like it. Cheap/budget counterspells fall off a cliff after that one card and one is forced to pick between Delay, Counterspell, and Swan Song for the most part. Really want another counter like this one in the future. No more free counterspells please!

I value Stifle effects highly in a graveyard deck since cards like Bojuka Bog get played in basically any deck it can go in and can't be stopped otherwise (and a lot of other graveyard hate can be stifled too)

A shame! I'd really like to know Richard's take on this topic

When you ranked the mdfc’s two years ago, you all gave Jwari Disruption grade D. What changed your mind about the card? Does it play better than you thought?

how about the classic "Counterspell"? UU: counter target spell

I think they overvalue the memes and tap lands with Jwari Disruption

I have a point for Arcane Denial, it it's later in the game and you draw a ramp spell, exemple rampant growth, and you don't need it you can spend four mana and draw 3 card at the next upkeep to find something else

58:46 I was not prepared for ASS

A person who hates blue walks into a bar. He sees a counter and leaves.

Pretty surprised to not see Commandeer in the honorable mentions. It's, imo, quite a bit better than Force of Negation, though it deals with different problems.

How about Mindbreak Trap?

I will find a deck to slot Traumatic Visions into. That art.

My question with Tale's End, what is more powerful Sorceries/Instances/Enchantments - OR - the ability to Stifle? If I value Essence Scatter, then I value Tale's End but ONLY if I would have added a Scatter (which is usually something I do not consider, because I value playing creatures and value attacking). (Yes I’m that blue player who usually avoids extra turn spells like who wants to play solitaire lol) We are talking casual EDH here but maybe if you turn the dial up to an 8+ in power level, Tale's End becomes playable.

Seth doesn't seem to grasp the intrinsic paradigm shift in the game theory when shifting from 1v1 to 1v1v1v1.

- Richard, this weeks cast is about counterspells. - A counterspell is just a crappy interaction piece with a limited time window, and you know damn well how i feel about single use interaction. - so... you are not recording? - did I stutter, Tomer? Did I freaking stutter??

I usually have ur dragon out by turn 5 pretty consistently. Not sure how they aren't getting him out until turn 8 or 9

THE PLANT HAS RETURNED! =)

If #1 isn't mana tithe...

I do think if Seth ever reads this is that yeah, Arcane Denial looks kind of bad in a vacuum in a single interaction in a single turn. But there are still two other players who are going to take turns and put down threats and be threatening, and for those players, having two players just be down a card is super advantageous for them. The thing that makes Arcane Denial good (hell, I run Dream Fracture too), is that it replaces itself with essentially three cards, meaning its much more likely you or your opponent can continue to have removal or counters or board wipes when someone else goes off. You're not always going to be in contention with the person you counter, there will be times even in the same turn cycle where you need to cooperate and that's what makes Arcane Denial so amazing.

Love drown in the loch. Lets me fill a counter slot and a kill spell slot with one card.

Where's just straight up Counterspell in this list? In non-EDH commander it's probably #3 just after Mana Drain and Fierce Guardianship, imo. Being able to hit *any spell* for 2 mana is a really big deal, and compared with Delay or Arcane Denial the only downside is requiring UU which is not a big deal at all if your mana base is decent. Stubborn Denial is also a great compliment to (or budget replacement for) Fierce Guardianship.

You can stifle P.W ultimate right lol😅

I used to run Jwari Disruption, then I cut it because it sucks

My pet counters are Abjure (in token decks) and Whirlwind Denial to get the triggers-players

@10:36 As looking with a causal lens: Playing a countermagic light blue decks (like simic creatures), I want my counter magic to deal with cards that will be game ending problems. I have creatures to attack or block but I need something for the board wipes, planeswalkers, or something I cannot afford to disenchant (or wait to draw into my disenchant). That Farewell will upset my gameplan, and thus I need to deal with noncreature spells. If their combo resides solely on creatures then yes I’m dead sitting with a negate like effect but there are fewer creature only combos and more noncreature combos that need an immediate response. In this vein, negates are perfectly playable and provides the highest interaction when it matters the most. Which is why I rank cost effective negates far above Essence Scatter (unless your friends only play creatures).

Force of Will is the best counterspell in magic imo

I agree with Crim on most of his ranks on this episode.

Crim could solo this one

Hullbreaker Horror deserves an honorable mention, though you can’t play him fairly. I run him in Jalira with copy effects, and it’s super easy to get a lock with him out.

Regarding Arcane Denial, if you think about it, it actually is damaging the person you target with it politically, by painting the target on their back, while extending the game to give everyone else a chance to attack that player.