Ninja Kiwi: *introduces Paragons as a way to compete with bosses* Paragons: *does well against bosses* Ninja Kiwi: *constantly looks for ways to limit Paragons*

I do agree that free play should be a sandbox and shouldn’t have the limit because, I have a 350+ save on logs, so I know what it’s like to go free play. So when I found out that the limit was in free play, I felt kinda distraught.

The paragon limit only works if they can make them synergies with eachother. But in the current state of paragons… it’s not a puzzle at all if all your options are dps instead of having some sort of support

Late to the pary, but here goes: - Bosses, and in particular Elite Bosses, have gotten too difficult benchmark-wise. I can't help but think a lot more players would enjoy the event if there's room for errors in non-ranked, where for example one can choose to farm another turn to get stuff more effectively and also make the pressure for later waves lower. But some of the maps they've been using don't actually allow this. - Paragon Limit shouldn't exist, I agree 100% about that. But what I'd rather want to see is some sort of paragon Synergy, for example duos or trios, where having all the paragons in a set *and no other paragons* increases the power output by anywhere from 50-100%. That gives those who farm less effectively a chance to keep up, but does not remove the purpose of getting more paragons. - This goes hand in hand with the first paragraph, but farming is getting harder with every single patch. This needs to stop. My ideas for what should be done about it will be long and most likely not agreed with. 1. Monkeyopolis should have a default of $225 given per $2000 spent, and increase by $15 for every additional sacrifice ($240 for 2 farms, $255 for 3 etc.) 2. It's actually fine that trade empire only adds $15 for every new merchantman, but that alone isn't enough to make the Favored trades special, so perhaps the Favored trades should give $25 per ship. 3. Add some kind of synergy for sniper and helicopter farming. perhaps the bank can boost helicopters by 20% per bank (max limit 5 stacks), and the BRF can boost snipers by 15% (max 3 or 4 times). Again, the difficulty in BTD6 should come from competitiveness in getting the best times, not from forcing even the casuals to pretend to be something they're not.

wait if ninja kiwi limits the amount of paragons how will we ever get them all on screen at the same time to create the true monke, a 0 0 0 dart monkey who has absorbed the power of all the paragons to get +6% attack speed?

This is an absoluletly well thought out video from a clearly experienced player, great job.

I just don't understand why they added the universal limit to begin with when they could always limit paragons for individual boss events like how you mentioned they did last time.

as a casual player i can say that boss restrictions are so annoying. like in the last boss event i found boat farming into brf spam really fun to do! and then looking fallowed to doing that again only to find out that i could not because of the dam restrictions.

When bloonarius released there weren't even 3 paragons so the boss will still be fine as long as they don't become a lot harder

Once the update came out, I immediately went to add the Goliath doom ship to my late game save, I saw the paragon limit, so I decided to sell my boomergon for the ace-agon and my disappointment was immeasurable and my day got ruined as I found out that the paragon limit was three, not five. As an inexperienced player, I just spam farms and merchantmen early and mid, to spam expensive towers like paragons late game

I still reckon NinjaKiwi is going to put one of these bosses on an Expert map at some point.

I don't play BTD6, but I've been watching a lot of content of it and I gotta say, even as an outside observer, your points are totally valid and fair. It absolutely doesn't make sense to limit player options in a mode like FREE play especially. And I can completely relate to the sentiment of enjoying the spectacle and sheer awesomeness of throwing all the coolest and strongest towers against the biggest and baddest bosses the game has to offer.

An MK paragon tree page that costs multiple MK to open each bubble would be great. Make it so a maxed out player can only ever finish one of the 3 paths on that page. Then, when playing multiplayer, with your team, you can have all 3 trees fully unlocked and one player could could just do whatever, but so a 3 player team would get all the buffs from the paragon page.

you got EVERY POINT RIGHT!

I feel like the more they try to make btd6 more competitive, the less fun everyone gonna have

I personally think paragon limit should be implemented as a challenge “limitation” so it stays the same in free play but nk can choose to limit the paragons on each boss , this would also add a new feature to challenge editor

as a (kinda) new player, the paragon limmit annoyed me. after finnally farming xp to get every paragon and getting a run with enough farming to get every one at lvl 100 with geraldo, it fucked with me when I discovered that I couldn't get everything I wanted. Especially since once you get a vtsg and the boat paragon you cant do really anything to progress, maybe except a permaspike or just simple spamming with isn't really fun

My biggest problem atm with the way Ninja Kiwi is taking BTD6 is that they are trying to make a game that is inherently casual into a competitive game. There is no feasible way to ACTUALLY compete in BTD6. Allow me to explain: Let's take boss events for exmaple. How many strategies are there that are viable to get the best times? 1. (the meta) What is LITERALLY the only skill you need in BTD6? Strategic thinking. It is not hard to see that by removing the ONLY skill you need in the game that "competeing" isn't what actually happens in boss events. What actually happens is a handful of people abuse the meta to the point of absurdity, and then play the EXACT SAME BOSS using the EXACT SAME STRATEGY over and over again until RNG finally gives in and gives you your time that is 0.000000001 seconds faster than the time you got before grinding for 12000 years.

changing the crossbow master mk to possibly a second 5th tier for all primary towers would solve the problem of utility vs glaive dominus

Honestly I played when bloonaries was released and it was glorious then I had to leave gaming for a while for exams and stuff and came back to vortex and difficulties has definitely increased

I agree with these other comments, you should be able to get more than three paragons in sandbox or freeplay.

it's like the parallel opposite problem pokemon has. gamefreak is dumbing the games down and implementing mandatory features that make it easy, like exp share and telling you whether a move's type is effective or not before using it, whereas here, ninja kiwi is arbitrarily making their game harder by removing features we already had. self imposed challenges are always possible to make the game harder, but when you remove that ability to even do so, people can't find enjoyment in that part of the game anymore and are forced to play it the way you want. btd6 in general can be incredibly frustrating to play, and I found myself ragequitting it many times until I learned about the back out feature for free retries if you're fast enough. This is almost like devs patching out bugs to limit speedrunners. It's just another way to limit fun. casuals are now left with even less reason to play the events that are already super difficult and time consuming, and hardcore gamers now have to devolve into the worst aspect of the game... laggy spam. Even when going for as many max level paragons as possible, the most isab got was 5 just by the skin of his teeth by like round 300 or something. going above 3 without them all being pitifully ranked isn't even feasible in most games anyway.

remove paragon limit and instead have it be a challenge modifier. freeplay is happy, boss events are happy.

holy i really like ur content pls keep it up!

I think it's a long term investment, once they introduce the Banana Farm Paragon it will prolly just produce crazy amounts of money which would make it too easy to get every other Paragon at mx degree, inky having three will let them be able to let Paragons produce money without making it too easy to get all paragons

"everywhere I go, I see his face"

that thing about the dart paragon always being better than the boomerang paragon, i think they finally met a balance where even a good degree dart wont be as strong as a low degree boomerang. it was only a little change too

i personly think every 50 rounds you can get +1 paragon limit on (for example 50-100 you can get 1 peragon) and you start with 0 paragon limit so at round 300 you can get all 6 paragon

I quit this game A Month Or two.But it is fun To watch the videos of the game.

6:22. DIO: Oh!? Are you approaching me?

I used to enjoy compete top 50 boss medals. But I realized that it slowly has become a spam fest, when initially I expect Paragon is the solution to all those stupid abilities spam. It does not get better, and I am exhausted on spamming everything on boss event. I want to go back to time where I just casually unlock map medals and some event tokens. BTD6 has slowly become a competitive game, which is something I do not expect, and do not enjoy about. The concern about meta is getting higher, and I just want a fun BTD game. Not a game about spamming everything on screen to win Elite boss outside from Ranked mode, due to how Paragon worked and the added limitations.

My bet is these account levels above the regular maximum (idk the name if those purple levels I am not that good yet lmao) are gonna give special monkey knowledge that can only be used for a paragon branch they're gonna add after they add all the paragons they plan on adding

the change makes sense to me.

you really got into ending videos with puns, what the kr science did to you...

Still no engineer paragon trap

I think this limit will force people to only use the best 3 paragons every game and lower the variety among them

Wait there is a 3 Paragon Max? I entered level 200 with Paragons Boat, Boomerang, Dart, and Ninja, so now im sitting here thinking I've broken the game..

honestly, I think paragons should work like heros. for every tier 5, they get say, 1 level. that way if you have a group of people, everyone gets to place 3 t5s, and your paragon starts at level 12. after that, it needs to pop an absurd ammount of bloons, which will make it's paragon level grow. make it so the levels tell you what the upgrade is, do some UI changes so the level up text is in purple, and boom, you've created what is essentially "super heros" in the form of paragons. maybe make paragon totems get completely reworked, or make them do like, 1/2 a level each, so you'd need 200 to instantly get max power. it would just make the game have more continual upgrading, and it would feel great to work together and watch the paragon keep getting stronger and show it's upgrades fully.

paragon limits make so much more sense as a week by week challenge for bosses depending on how hard NK thinks it is, not a hard cap across every mode.

Can you play the battle cats and think in my opinion is the ultimate tower defense and can make a video about it about your thoughts on this game I’ve been play battle cats for 3 years

10:40 that has some real complications, the possibility of 2 VTSG's sounds too powerful, maybe because it's a primary monkey knowledge, allow for 1 more tier 5 PRIMARY monkey

1 extra tier 5 of your choice in singleplayer would be INSANELY broken, here are a few of the many examples: - 2x LOTN or Anti-Bloon - 2x Grand Sabotage for permanently reduced moab HP - 2x of any village kills the need for strategic placement of them - 2x Moab Dom would just be insane damage

I think that the 3 Paragons are good in Boss Fights Only, it's the only thing that requires a lot of Paragons and it makes you ponder about which Paragon you should go for. Elite Bosses are supposed to be Extremely Hard and only the best players should be able to do it. I think instead, keep the 3 Paragon Limit or change it based on how hard the new Boss is. Ranging from no Paragons to all Paragons. But the Paragon Limit in Free Play shouldn't be a thing. That one doesn't make sense. Free Play does nothing to your account. If people want insta kill stuff in Free play, go for it. The Monkeyopolis is supposed to only increase Space, it isn't supposed to be the best way to farm it's supposed to be worse than normal but be much better for Space. The "Extra" Tier 5 Tower is not a good Idea Either, the Crossbow Master Monkey Knowledge is already one of the very best Monkey Knowledges already and to have 2 Tier 5s of different towers would be broken. The Dart Paragon is supposed to be worse than the other Paragons so an easy way to change it is to make it slightly cheaper than it is now, and make it Worse than it is now. So that a Level 30 Dart Paragon is on level with a Level 1 Boomer Paragon, or just barely ahead. So that the Boomer Paragon is better when it's even the same level, since Dart Paragon Levels are easier to get. This wouldn't make the Dart Paragon Bad BECAUSE it is easier to get Dart Paragon Levels. It's maximum Damage Output would just be lower than the Boomerang Paragon, by quite a large Margain. And that's what it should be, a Cheaper Paragon with a Low Maximum Power. Good for Shorter Runs where you won't get anything above a Degree 50 Boomer Paragon and worse for longer Runs where you get Degree 70 Boomer Paragons. So While I do think that this change is Unwarranted, I also think that the ways you want to go about fixing them, aren't the Awnser.

I feel like paragon limits on bosses are cool cause more strategies and and more fun but I think its bad on free play

Paragons are good, but if every monkey will have paragon it will probably be boring

Bruh I cant have all of the paragons I wanna place them all like ash wanna catch em all LET ME PLACE EM ALL YOU GODDAMM FLYLESS BIRD FROM NEW ZEALAND

10:35 no dont, please no just limit it to primary monkeys at best.

recently left playing btd6 (like about 2 months) because ive done enough stuff, i kinda want to get back, but with this paragon problem, should i get back?

did anyone see how much he was lagging LOL 1:03

Its stupid i mean on bosses ? Sure why not But not in normal modes now getting to high rounds is impossible. At least the Ace paragon is nice

bro really got the 5 fps gameplay

Paragon limit is only going to add to the paragon unbalance of power, like already navarch is the best paragon so people are going to try even harder to get only the strongest paragons Major bruh moment, more controversial than the master builder (ninja kiwi please price swap master builder and navarch)

YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO CUT ME OFF

I hope whoever thought of the limit at NK gets fired.

i hope they rework the engineer paragon and add more support paragons. having every paragon purely a dps machine limits strategy, and the paragon limit itself does not help

Finally someone who isn’t just like: OMG NK MADE IT SO I CAN’T GET ALL PARAGONS IN FREEPLAY THEY’RE RUINING THE GAME And then giving no reason as to why they think that other than that “getting all paragons is fun” As for my actual opinion on freeplay…honestly it doesn’t effect freeplay nearly as much as boss events. Freeplay is kinda a pointless game mode other than for farming sapper and other achievements, especially with advanced challenges destroying round records. And the fact that paragons are not even close to being the best dps options in freeplay, leaving it to be a much more esoteric and illogical debate about player freedom etcetera. Also, most people are saying it should be removed from freeplay and left on for boss events. Excuse me, where the hell did you get your opinion from that it’s this bad?

I get how people want to be able to see all of the paragons on the screen at once and see how far into freeplay you could go; kinda like how you could have all 5th tier towers on the screen when the game first came out, but I wanted to say this because I haven't seen this mentioned I think the paragon limit has to do more with the reason why they limited 5th tier towers since the beginning of the game. I had the impression that they did that to make the 5th tiers feel special. Before BTD6, dumping your power and giving it all you had was just about spamming the strongest tower until you ran out of money. The only exception to this was the temples in BTD5 because you couldn't have them too close But the 5th tier limitations made it so that every individual 5th tier had more of a purpose. Their placement mattered, their strengths weren't diluted by the fact that you could have 50 of them, and the late game wasn't just about spamming the strongest ones. It might not be exactly the same in the case of paragons (mostly because the designs of some of the paragons are mediocre and the fact that for some reason paragons don't restrict you from rebuying their 5th tiers), but I could see NK being afraid that having a screen filled with paragons takes away from how special they wanted them to be This was way longer than I thought it'd be

I’m just on the side of not banning then cause having a lot of them looks cool

maybe they just need to make it a challenge setting so they can put it on bosses and challenges but not the normal game

Perhaps the cap could just be restricted to the bosses only? Or just the ranked bosses only? Or how about instead of a cap, all paragons after the third have a degree limit? Or a more strict degree formula? Or maybe even just a price boost? (Make it so it's possible to obtain in free play and potentially possible in boss fights but you'd have to farm harder than you'd ever farmed before.) There are many ways to handle this, but NK decided to go with the easiest way (and the worst). If they must stick with the cap, then let's at least hope they either raise it or allow us the ability to raise it ourselves by earning it (MK perhaps?).

Casual players are meant to play normal mode. Veteran players and sweaty players are meant to play elite mode. That's how it was designed as to give everyone something. I agree with the decision to limit the paragons to 3 in boss mode only, as for freeplay I don't really care too much about it so maybe NK can lift the paragon limit there. Paragons should be capped at 3 to encourage players to make higher degree paragons instead of spamming them which is presumably the vision of the boss fights.

I'm fine with the new paragon limit, it's just you can't get a higher round in Freeplay (I suppose you can when you try hard enough) so you can see how far all the paragons can go to.

I feel the biggest of the problem is that single player and co op free play have the limit too there’s no reason to have a cap

i can understand why this is something that theyd implement for bosses (though with how paragons currently are it doesnt work) but for free play i honestly have no clue what theyre thinking. let people have fun, who are they hurting by getting 5 paragons in their own personal free play game? this wouldnt be as big a problem if they had forecasted that a limit would be coming once they released a certain amount of paragons but it just doesnt work like this.

"if it dont broke dont fix it"

The only place where it makes sense is coop cuz the servers are already struggling

its really annoying because there's no real way to get to round 400+ I was playing coop with 3 max paragons we couldnt even get past 350 if the towers are meant to be good WHY LIMIT THEM

i think ninja kiwi should really buff the bosses like hmm add additional difficulties to the bosses rather than normal mode and elite mode why not add more difficulties if they're just gonna nerf paragons

I think a generic paragon limit is a fine idea if they don't want to handpick the paragons for you for a specific event. However, I don't think that such a limit should be a default restriction of the game... it should be the same as the limit of towers. Something optional that can also be changed (it could be 1, 2, 3, 4...). That way NK and players alike can make custom challenges and events. In the end I think that's what everybody is displeased about, the default universal restriction. I don't think people woud've reacted so negatively if it worked just like any other limit.

There is a mod to remove it made by greenphx9 I think

They should now buff the Engineer Paragon to also buff paragons not just himself. Not gonna break the game with 5 other paragon getting buffed wouldn't it.

my solution would be this.. *ONLY* limit paragons in ranked on bosses in any other mode there is no limit

Bosses are meant to be difficult but ninja kiwi just makes them harder for the average player by nerfing farming options and having more difficult maps like vortex on chutes

just remove the limit and get rid of the extra dart adding to the degree

As someone who loves ranked bosses and came 1st once i think nk dosent care about ranked that mutch when they alloved pausing between rounds they ruined bosses since whey less ppl play and made it super easy to get top 3 but u hade too have hella time and i think the 3 paragons will do the same since ppl dont like the change and wont play

Do y’all remember when the game used to be fun, with little restrictions on towers/combos of towers? Because that’s not gonna come back unless NK reversed the Paragon limit, in my opinion, it’s just stupid. It makes Boss Events even more difficult to complete as it, it ruins Freeplay, which is supposed to be a a MAIN feature in the game And besides. Working for the Paragon, such an overpower tower, feels cathartic. It feels GREAT. And having a restriction upon it makes me not even want to bother with the Paragons. This is coming from someone who just screws around with Freeplay, but still. (For suggestions, I don’t really have any, but still. My point stands.)

I think that a paragon limit is integral to future-proofing but I think a flat number isn’t the way to go. I think something like having one paragon of each category would be better so you’d have reason to fill specific niches, but that would almost certainly require a system of getting more than just some monkey money back when selling a paragon because then it would feel like a waste (maybe getting Geraldo power totems based on degree? I didn’t think about this part as much) but without the limit eventually it would become a degree 1 ability spam which personally sounds kinda boring

My favorite thing about this is that the VTSG is Dio and the engi paragon is Hol horse

how tf do u get enough money for 2 paragons on cornfield without removing corn lol (4:00)

Voduke hey remember me loganator?

Me with a vtsg and a legend of the night after they make it so you can 2 of any one t5.

The thing about people is they love seeing progress and love watching limits be pushed. The reason most people are in an outrage about this is because it seems to be moving backwards. The whole point of freeplay is to see how far you can push limits of the game. Why would you add super powerful towers into a game where the ramping is absolutely insane and then just limit the amount of towers you can get? It’s clear that NK don’t want people to go late game but that’s confusing because then what’s the point of freelplay? There’s genuinely no harm to it (and if you’re going to say “Oh but instas” that’s every 100 rounds and it’s so much effort to even reach round 300 for a single t4 insta. And considering you can farm t4 instas during collection events it’s not a good argument) so I don’t understand why NK is making it seem like freeplay is off limits. The only thing I can compare it to is if you tell a child that you bought them candy and then putting it on a shelf they can’t reach and only giving them one piece, then throwing the candy away I could understand if NK made a mistake, thinking people might want this and being wrong, understandably so, balancing a video game is extremely difficult and game devs always want to make everyone happy, which just isn’t possible. But I’m sure they’ve seen the backlash and there’s no further point in fighting them. The only thing that matters now is whether they actually remove the limit or not.

Yes! I agree! But, I think bosses should have A limit, when all paragons come out, they should put a 5 paragon limit, It’s free play that’s the problem, there should be NO limit for free play. I think this was a “infinite paragon glitch” defense. But, you can just fix the bug! So, your talking about bosses, I’m talking about free play. There should be a BIG limit for bosses, for free play, there should be no paragon limit. This update is horrible

do you play on a potato or something???

Tip for next time: Don't show your user ID in your video. People can log into your account

You fool... YOU SHOWED YOUR ID IN THE BEGINNING OF DBY

I have a non-paragon cap related comment. You talked about farming and the monkeyopolis hard nerf. Which brings up a scary point. Nk is balancing farming methods around top players. The farming meta seems to change every update, because some farming method is hit hard every balance change. Thing is, casuals often don't keep up with the farming meta while top players do. When the meta evolves and is nerfed, top players simply create a new meta, which is nerfed again. This cycle slowly makes casuals' farming methods obsolete. Suddenly the monkeyopolis they loved using is making less money. The boat farms they heard were good are not good anymore. And they get left in the dust. And with the boss events getting harder (holy SHIT this week's elite lych was so fucking hard) they are ensuring that slowly, the majority of the fanbase who doesn't sweat their ass off, has to learn how to sweat. Has to learn the meta. Has to learn the strats that they will nerf the next update. And if they don't? They get thrown away, as Nk has slowly but surely made a gamemode that downright isn't fun for them, or anyone at this point. Nk, perhaps unintentionally, has made a gamemode that completely disregards the majority of their playerbase. And with their current path, this issue seems to grow only larger and larger.

video

Thor from kingdom rush is weaker compare to Mcu and Comics because in comics he's 1600 years old in mcu he's 1500 years old in kr unknown. So in marvel universe the older the asgardians are the stronger they get

Take into consideration the fact that in the future we might see something like a full on support paragon Here I'm mainly referring to a possible monkey village paragon, what's that gonna do? One would assume it'd buff other paragon towers however that would be kind of odd to have to sacrifice 1 of your now 4 total paragon slots just to buff the 3 others At that point, would a village paragon even ever work?

They're starting to balance the game around bosses and its really annoying. Like why should freeplay be crippled because they want to balance around bosses. Same thing as nerfing stuff in single player or casual play because it's op in a multiplayer game its dumb and I hate this philosophy

NK is really falling off since engie paragon. i honestly believe that the new ace para isnt that good, and what is good about it was a fluke. i love the game, i really do, but theyve made alot of bad choices in that last 6 months

I think free play should not have a Paragon limit it totally ruins late game.

Bro wtf was the background gameplay it was so fucking laggy

Do you agree to my opinion? Completely remove the paragon limit to any mode except Bosses. But the limit depends on what difficulty it is. However, there are two options though but I think the other option is already a win. Option 1: Normal Boss - Paragon Limit: 8 Elite Boss - Paragon Limit: 4 Option 2: Normal Boss - Paragon Limit: 4 Elite Boss - Paragon Limit: 8 Questions: Why is there still Paragon Limit? = To make boss harder than it should be but not as bad as it originated. Why 4 and/or 8 Paragons? = For those game that are Co-op and each one can have either 1 or 2 on each player. Does this affect the gameplay of a single player boss mode? Still yes, but not as bad as it is on what's going on in the 33.0 highly stricted Paragon Limit. Btw, this is just based on my concept of how to fix this Paragon Limit Problem.

Paragon limits shouldn't be in free play. Boss events are fine, like 3 paragons at most, choose the best ones for that exact scenario, I get that, don't make it too easy, give us a challenge. But in free play, that's just plain dumb. You'd just go on Cubism or Logs and choose Ace, Boat and Ninja. Done. Highest round possible, with those. Change the free play. PLEASE.

So glad I quit playing this trash game 3 months ago :)

videos that are absolutely inSANE in quality like this (and bc voduke goated) are why i subbed ever since i came across your KR vids, I hope NK sees this and what other players feel abt this; 👌🤧🤌

i guess just uhh uhhh uhhh only get the meta ones 🥲

Freeplay and sandbox shouldn't limit the number of paragons in one screen/game/map.