I like to flesh out the character (RP) and build mechanics around that framework. And if we (players & GM) are having a hard time finding the mechanics to support the RP well that's what homebrew is for

I typically start with a mechanical concept, how I want the character to play. Then I look for the best class/archetype to achieve that. Then, with a better understanding of the character's mechanics, I focus in on what defines them as a character, why are they like this, and how did they get there. Then, I use that again to inform the mechanical specifics, skill/general fears, and other more granular details, that lets me really build a character that functions in a way representative of who they are. Throughout that last step, I let each aspect inform the other, to really make sure the character is accurately represented by their function in every part of their build. When I choose a feat, I think about why that specifically applies to the character, and keep using that to build on who they are; then when deciding the next feat, I'll think about who they are to help pick the most fitting ability, and so on.

My first character ever was definitely a lot more like me than most of the ones I play now. But I'll still throw a semi-self-insert in there occasionally for variety. ;) As far as RP or mechanics first, I almost always start with the story and then do my best to replicate what I imagine through the mechanics, then sometimes the character changes to fit the mechanics a little better, and then that's usually it. To be fair, I'll usually at least have a class in mind to start since that's usually going to define a lot of what your character will actually be doing. But for my last character (RIP Tiefz), I did end up changing their class mid-way through character creation because I realized my intentions weren't QUITE getting across with the original class, so my unarmed fighter became an unarmed barbarian. PF2e has so many damn options, so it's usually pretty easy to just *pick things that make sense* and have it work out. I'm currently playing an absolutely non-min-maxed cleric of the Cosmic Caravan (Fate domain) and having a blast.

Mechanics all day every day, then RP to make those mechanics into a person. I love mechanical optimization and "feat Tetris". Plan out everything 1-20, then figure out who this is and where they've been.

Love the idea, and encourage roleplay the mechanics🎉

I have a cycle of character creation. Where I start depends on the inspiration. Let's say I get a cool mental image. "Telekinetic sword wielding." That's the foundation. I could elaborate on that and design a character backstory, appearance, etc, but the baseline concept is difficult to represent in rules so I focus on that first. After perusing the relevant spell lists, I find that none of them pull off what I want. Spiritual Weapon can't be a whole character. So instead, I remember that the metal kineticist has a kinetic aura that has a visual represenation of your element. Thus, I flavor the aura as the character surrounsing themselves with several sword-like shards of metal. Because I want the character to function decently, I look deeper into metal kineticist builds. With the help of guides, I find that metal kineticists are somewhat defensive and have lots of area-of-effect powers. I want something agile with a military motif, so I plan on emphasizing Acrobatics and Warfare Lore as two key skills. With the build mostly done I double back to the flavor to flesh it out, using the character's abilities and limitations as a guideline. Kirasha of the Unseen Army always wanted to be a great warrior, but had no talent for the blade. No matter how hard she trained, she could never get the hang of it. But her sheer determination was enough to awaken a power within her, creating a stable rift to the plane of metal within her very soul. She learned how to conjure strange shards of metal, and she could wield these shards with such grace that one would assume they were a part of her. In a way, they were. She could even strike multiple opponents at once. She named her unusual fighting style "Unseen Army" after the fact that her blades appeared to be wielded by an invisible squadron of soldiers with her at the center. And there you have it. Flavor informs mechanics, which in turn inform the flavor. And I can go around this cycle as often as I need to flesh out the details.

3:54 Wait. Hello. You have my attention. Caught me totally off guard.

Chatting with our gaming table, That story of the swashbuckler hero, that retrained into a hero, in mechanics, But is in every way, roleplay narrative, the same. That's very very exciting. My only point has been, find the mechanics that you enjoy, and will function, for you, in your campaign, at your table, (and with your DM), And then enjoy writing a character that inspires you, with those mechanics, and either make some subtle in the narrative, or other's featured in the narrative. But really the point is to have fun together.

One of the issues with making a complete role playing character is that boss fights make you feel useless. Those level +1 or +2 enemies really mess with how the player feels about their character. Just happened to a character at last night's session.

I've hit this point, a bit elsewhere. But I haven't mentioned this before, this way. There is nothing about the Wizard, spellbook, class mechanics, that force it to actually be Narrated as the studious Mage, who trained, and carries a book. You mechanically need a reference material, (the spellbook or substitute) and it should by default be able to be stolen lost or destroyed... But the narrative can be anything you and your DM agree to, painted over top of the underlying mechanics. You absolutely could play a Mage who has received a Pact for Power, and their spells exist within a grimoire or tome, or a magic crystal, Only type of thing that would be difficult to narrate past, Would be spontaneous vs prepared... A prepared Caster won't have that mechanical midday versatility, Similarly, a spontaneous Caster won't have that mechanical daily versatility. But even that still can be worked with. The power you were granted, has its benefits, has its drawbacks, has its limits. And then as you level up, you Gian more spells, We'll you commit more deeply into your Pact. And draw more power. Absolutely could use a Wizard class as a base , but roleplay it as a Draconic or Fey Bloodline, that you are growing into and learning to Unleash more of its power. Rogues are easier, They have so many skill potentials, and the different types of Rogue allow for subtle differences in primary ability, And sneak attack is just bonus damage when applicable mechanically,it's very easy to reskin those mechanics into almost anything. Ie. The skilled medic Rogue, Applies there knowledge of anatomy, to heal, or harm. Having witnessed and treated every gruesome injury coming off the battlefield, they know precise where to strike to apply the most damage. Ie. The pirate or 3 musketeer, (Firearm optional) swashbuckling along with style and flair, using a Rogue. The Thaumaturge is ripe to have its source for its esoterica be refluff Ed and rewritten. List goes on.

5:00 That's Really cool. OK. Disclaimer, I hope it never gets missed. I really enjoy your videos. I really enjoy your clear intention and purpose. I think we might have interesting conversations at a gaming table, and might it always have the same personal preferences, But. I respect you, and I hope that none of my comments (or the volume of comments) ever come across any way as Not respectful. I do try to use timestamps, for ease of reference. But yes. I will keep watching videos, and I will continue to engage in comments, in what I do sincerely hope is received as respectful, if not always agreement. (I heard an awesome quote... from one of my favorite channels... Abiut the complaint section of the comments, under the bridge, where the trolls lice) They said 'quote' "go ahead and complain all you want, the algorithm doesn't care either way, it only sees comment counts. So thank you for your engaging trolling, you are helping my channel, when you response, either way." Credit : (Corporal Kelly, Corporals Corner)

I have two favourite approaches, One is to sit down with the GM and hash out what the campaign is about, so I can come up with a character that can get the ball rolling and take the story in interesting directions. The second is I have a deck of archetype cards, I draw 3 of them and try to think of a character that embodies those three archetypes in some way. Either way only once I have a solid idea of the fiction of the character will I crack open any rule-books. Select an option from a list is probably my least favourite form of character creation. One place where design tradeoffs have to be made when designing an RPG is the tension between wanting to create a balanced game where all player options feel balanced with each other and having each option feel like it should to sell the fiction. Which set of trade-offs work better depends on the style of game you are playing, how skilled the players are at storytelling and how emotionally mature the players are.

I almost always go the frustrating route. Roleplay/Concept first, then mechanics. Then again, I also GM, so learning more and more about what is possible and (to my mind) functionally permissible with a character is pretty necessary.

Oh, I always start with the mechanics first. Then I go to bed. In the wee hours of the morning I get unceremoniously dumped to the floor by my upset character muse who inspires a backstory and refuses to let me sleep until I've worked on the character enough. In some cases, this requires changing the mechanics to match the new backstory. Changing the mechanics sometimes further changes the story and i go back and forth over a very restless week. Then, once I'm settled on everything and have had some sleep, I can look over the character, find the problems i didn't see because of lack of sleep and fix them, starting the cycle all over. ------ I have definitely changed some characters to make them fit better. I had elemental sorcerer who became a kineticist when Rage of Elements dropped. That better fit the instinctive nature of what I saw for her. She was a child of the winter storm.

So, my first character ever in TTRPGs was a hot mess. It was in PF1e, and joining a Kingmaker campaign at 9th level. IRL, I'm a 6'5", 250-ish lb dude and immediately was drawn to playing a Gnome Arcane Trickster, a real sneaky magic-talent type (base classes were Sorcerer and Rogue), which is about as opposite me as possible. Even though he was horribly unoptimized (thanks, crazy-complicated 1e), he was, mechanically, perfect for the RP that I wanted, where he was essentially a Rogue with firepower. Dude was great at roleplaying hiding in the background all the time. In 2e, I'm playing an Inventor with a Construct Companion. As one of the two most experienced players, I waited until others selected their classes to try and fill in some gaps, as we had no ranged martial, I leaned into that and he has a firearm. So mechanics ruled at first, but I used the backgrounds presented in the campaign in order to make sure that I could craft a backstory that worked for both why the character is the class he is, as well as his motivations for being in the party. Character selection was for mechanics, but creation became the point for how I was going to try and RP him.

There are two equally important & utterly contradictory rules about how I choose characters: Rule #1: I go for something that inspires me or catches my curiosity. This can be mechanics or role play. Rule #2: I do NOT play subtle classes. I am reserved in real life. At the gaming table, it's go big or go home!

It is about the mechanics. What is best in TTRPGs? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you and to hear the lamentations of their women!

I don't really care about the class or character being like me or not I pick the most mechanically interesting one that fits the given campaign perfectly I do usually prefer natural stuff especially primal magic (I love nature and nature photography) Edit: we have an upcoming northern expedition inspired campaign I had no plans to play Thaumaturge, but the boat has a witch hunter role that no one wanted (first mate was the other special role) Thaumaturge was too perfect for witch hunting and when building it I grew to love it So I would say I do role-play first and then see if the most fitting one is something I could enjoy playing

I only have a little bit of experience with PF2, but I've done a lot of PF1, and I know that system pretty inside and out; and I've honestly been a little disappointed by how much PF2 feels like it's a little stricter with it's roleplay-machincs combos. Specifically, I feel that PF2 significantly reduced how much overlap there is and how viable alternate or secondary class roles are; you have a ton of builds to choose from, but less mix-and-match along the way. It makes it feel to me I definitely am the type to build characters entirely around mechanics first (many times I've got an idea in my head, thought about a few potential angles, then sat down and spent the next 6 hours or so with a dozen PFSRD tabs and some word documents open, piecing together the puzzle of the build that I want from lvls 1-20) and then use those mechanics as a writing prompt essentially to craft a character out of (I tend to assign character reasons to every ability, and will deliberately switch out some of the optimization for better flavor); although sometimes I have short blurb of a character concept to give me the idea for the mechanics (although these are usually aesthetics rather than roleplay). Back in PF1, my favorite classes were (in order): Barbarian, Alchemist, and Oracle (with an honorable mention for Cavalier). Because I found them to be the most versatile in the game by far. In particular PF1 has the best Barbarian class of any game ever made, and I have well over 20 fully distinct (both mechanically and in roleplay) PF1 Barbarians in my repertoire. I still really like the Oracle in PF2, and while I've been highly disappointed with their handling of the Barbarian and Alchemist, I've so far really liked the PF2 Ranger and Thaumaturge a lot. I think, other than a few basic play styles I lean towards (melee glass cannon is usually my fave), ultimately the thing I'm drawn to in TTRPG characters is the ability to craft and combine unique mechanic specializations (why I like the Ranger over the Fighter; an individual Fighter is more versatile by virtue of being largely a generalist with no real weaknesses, where the Ranger as a class to make characters out of is more versatile by virtue of providing several different specialists to play as) with unique flavor combinations (a Fighter, a Ranger, and a Barbarian who all do the same big damage with the same big sword each feel aesthetically different, and each call for different roleplay and story beats; a level of variety that PF1 leaned into more than PF2 does, which seems to think those characters would be redundant more than I do). As far as roleplay concepts that I tend towards, I'm both more and less versatile than in mechanics. I'm not very "good" at roleplay (I have no ranks in Perform and CHA is my dump stat), but I AM a writer, so I'll craft pretty detailed characters of a pretty wide variety of archetypes, and even if I have difficulty being "in-character" and improvising their roleplay, I can usually build and explain their arcs and actions to make sense and give the rest of the players the right understanding of who they are and what's going on with them.

I personally like the Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard because they don't necessarily come with pre-inbuilt identities. And this is also why I actively dislike the Champion and Inventor, because the Champion can only be a representative of a god, and the Inventor can only be an unreliable craftsman. I asked the questions why can't I be a farm boy who became a champion to fight for his love interest or village, and why can't I be an inventor who's inventions don't randomly explode? I can actively try to pretend that I don't have certain features and mechanics, but then I'm actively handicapping myself which could lead to the death of my party. But then there are classes that I don't like solely based on a mechanical standpoint, like the Psychic, the Summoner, and the Thaumaturge.

3:15 Thank you. Might be the first time, in the series, I've heard you actually say the phrase. Blank slate. To apply roleplaying on top of. The 'character' bor 'class' hooks, Are almost all suggestions. Not at all intended to be enforced, or exclusive, or exhaustive. But give you some idea of either some iconic archetypal heroes who might well be represented by the mechanics, or, some ideas to help inspire your own narratives. Every class is a blank slate, Some. Mechanics will lend themselves slightly better to one quadrant of roleplay narrative, than to another... But. Still, there are very few hard elements in any class that need to be 'fit into the narrative', Or have the narrative written around. It might be fun to play a character who sprang to mind when reading the class suggested narratives, But please, feel free to create imaginatively beyond the few suggestions on the page.

5:46 Agreed.

I always so mechanics first. Roleplay comes last for me, as to me I always emphasize the G part of RPG. It's not that I hate the RP part, but I feel numbers will always feel more natural to me than the talky talky bits. I easily get bored if the talky talky goes too long and I'm not able to participate in a meaningful way. I also just plain struggle with putting a face to the sheet. And so I have long list of builds that have no face to them. 😩 But that's a bit of my own rambling. Mechanics first, roleplay second, because the few times where I have done roleplay first I haven't really been able to make it work. For example, I had in mind this henshin hero type of character but there's really zero mechanical support for that at very low levels. At higher levels you can just take any of the battle form spells. But for someone starting out? You're out of luck. I'm not against homebrew, but I find it a lot harder to sell PF2 GMs on homebrew since balance is made such a huge emphasis in PF2 (which I like but on these very rare occasions such as this it actually is a detriment). That and I don't know of any homebrew that supports that concept anyway.

Personally I don't like the wizard, but I do play a lot of int characters for the RP reasons of tactics and information control. In 5e I play a lizardfolk artificer who's a ruthlessly efficient tactician, playing out fights and whole arcs like games of chess where every visible move is a way to manipulate the opposition. My current pf2e character is a ratfolk magus who more and more is taking on an out of combat role as a spy, trying to get his hands on any information he can.

6:09 agreed.

Ok. I have a question for you. A. Personal Challenge, but a friendly one. Having listened to your Love for the flavour of the Investigator. Here is my question. Would you prefer to build a character that fulfills your detective inspiration and craving, that functions (more effectively, more reliably, and perhaps, dare I say, more powerfully) (or more impactfully) Or Would you prefer to work to 'fix' the balance or function of the Investigator itself? And I will say, that I did notice, one or two unique things the Investigator class can do at low level better than the Rogue at that level. Ie. There is a Medic Investigator Subclass, that has some very appealing very unique (skill medicine) healing bonuses, for that one job. Quite difficult to replicate on another class. Even with the investigator archetype considered. That's a point, in its favor. I don't see the same about the vaunted +1 bonus to RK, or the ability to grant a +1 bonus to RK to an ally... And many of the other Investigator bits, are accessible through the archetype, In such a way, that. A Rogue(skills + precision +feats) or Thauma or Fighter or Ranger (hunted prey etc) or Gunslinger, for fun, Or your INT Wizard or Psychic, for that matter, if not your Wisdom Cleric or Druid... But any of them might collect some important Investigation bits through skill selection, roleplay, and if necessary, the archetype. In the end. Do you love the Investigator class? Do you even 'like it'? Or, do you love the flavour in the suggested narratives, And perhaps, even love a few key mechanical. Components(accessible to anyone through the archetype)?