That Deftones guitar is the first thing that comes to mind. That's almost a middle pickup. 😢

coughstrandbergcough

My Caparison Brocken 8 is like that. I like how it sounds and all but it’s way too far away from the bridge for a super percussive attack.

you have to consider the scale length

Schecter and Keith Merrow figured this out at least. After 2013 all of Schecter's guitars had the bridge pickup moved really close to the bridge due to Keith's input.

Thanks so much! I just need to understand guitars better. I hate the fact that we've spent so much money on things like pickups and tonewoods and glue necks and nitro tops which ultimately have very little to do with guitar tone. So far scale lengths seems to be the biggest spec I've found that really makes a huge difference.

@@mlsoundlab now if only we can uncover why my vocals sound god awful lol

Would love to hear more!! What scale guitar? What pickup? What's the negative sound if you're too close to the bridge?

@@mlsoundlab 27" WelGuitar custom. Bare Knuckle Silo in the bridge. Seems like too close to the bridge you loose dynamics and a bit output too. 2cm keeps that twang going while retaining the beefy and organic side.

Aww Resington you da man!!

Yup this is exactly my point. And why a HSS strat bridge pickup will not sound exactly like a Gibson bridge pickup. Longer scale length Fender makes it brighter - not the bolt on neck but the actual scale length and different string tension. And then they've compensated for that brightness by having that bridge pickup further away from the bridge to make it darker. The only thing is - that's not exactly the same kind of brightness. Proximity to bridge pickup seems to affect brightness around 2khz while scale length brightness is a much broader overall brightness....... we will find the truth!! 😅

Thank you! 🤲 -Kai

Glad you found it helpful! -Kai

Thanks matey!!

Thank you 💪 -Kai

Honestly I think original Gibson design must have been "as close as possible" to the bridge and neck. Remember that pickup distance is likely relative to the scale length. So on a longer scale guitar you're likely 2-4mm further away to be comparable to a Gibson scale. But still I think Gibson tried to get as close as possible with pickup rings.

Regardless of pickup location, Raising the pole pieces nearer the strings will increase brightness. Lower wind pickups and/or ceramic or alnico 5 will also give a brighter tone. There are other tricks as well

Check my previous video! Scale length is the biggest issue when trying to make Fender and Gibson sound like each other. I had no problems getting my short scale Fender sounding close to a Gibson Les Paul. Actually the Fender had a shorter scale and was therefore even fatter. 😮

@@mlsoundlab A Jag is as much shorter than a Gibby as a Gibby is compared to a Strat. 3/4ths of an inch.

Polepieces!! That's what I used for my measurements. And that varies even between all of my seven Gibson Les Pauls too.

@@mlsoundlab interesting, how much different was it between the les pauls?

That is a common problem with multiscale guitars - slanted pickups are a lot more expensive to work with, but straight pickups will have compromises in the placement. With the added scale length of a multiscale though, you can afford to have a larger distance between the saddle and the pickup, so it's not quite as bad as it looks. -Kai

Mikko chiming in too - which ever side of the pickup is closer to the bridge will be slightly brighter. I would say it's better to have the thick strings being picked up closer to the bridge and the thinner strings further away. Generally you want low notes as bright as possible and high notes as fat as possible. That is the aim of many guitar builders.

The pickups weren't screwed in for this test, they were freely moved around and taped in place (obviously not a sustainable practice, but it works for testing purposes). -Kai

​@mlsoundlab yeah, but again, most humbucker bodies, fully assembled are at least 12mm in height, and then adding the height adustmentment tabs adds another 8mm. So given you had to raise the bridge high enough to accommodate that, and leave enough space for standard string clearance over the pole pieces, that would be close to 25mm. How did you physically play the guitars at that point?

That was the reason I couldn't do it with a Gibson. The Tokai pickups have short feet so I can easily place them with tape and pressure to the top. It was not pretty 😂

​​@@mlsoundlabYou should have shown that. Rather convenient you didn't. Sorry but this doesn't pass the smell test. I built an offset V last year that I put a Duncan JB in. The guitar has a pickguard into which the pickups are mounted (like on a Strat). I miscalculated and milled the pickup cutout about 10mm farther toward the bridge than I had intended. The pickup took a very different character. No less aggressive than previous JBs I've installed closer to bridges on other builds, just more beefy and singing. I never made a new pickguard because it sounded really great in the so called "wrong" position. My result in that case is inconsistent with the results you showed us. Additionally I had a Gretsch Corvette for many years. Those guitars have a long neck tenon so the neck pickup is pushed farther back. As a consequence, the inverse phenomenon occurred where there was additional clarity in the position, almost like the middle position on a Strat, but no less strength of signal.

The test in the video is faked. See my main thread comment for the explanation.

The test is faked. If he raised the strings high enough to get a humbucker under the strings, the guitar would be unplayable.

@@peachmelba1000 It most certainly was nearly unplayable. Very demanding and did not stay in tune very well. Not faked. The Tokai pickups do not have those high legs that Gibson pickups do. On a Gibson you can't even lift the strings high enough.

Getting guitars to sound as good as possible is more important to some people than others. We're personally in the business of making guitars sound amazing, so this is our own exploration in the matter. This also isn't an actionable video - no one's going to re-route their guitars to put the pickup closer to the bridge after this. Glad you enjoyed the video regardless! -Kai

@@mlsoundlab I totally get that, it's a really cool thing, specially for experimenting, getting guitars to sound good is extremely important to me too :), keep rocking!

Exactly, why I love the sound of my Epiphone , just sounds a bit better.

If you're starting to lose 2k you're functionally deaf.

@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 Let's hope not. 🤞

@@ericolson326 You'd probably notice well before you're at that point.

Listening to DI is a little bit difficult. 2khz makes a huge difference especially in the "kerrang" and aggressiveness of a guitar. Many times this is exactly that area where the guitar high end is not competing with anything in the mix. Usually from around 4khz forward drum cymbals will start taking quite a bit of space so that 2khz might be the only spot where guitars are being heard constantly. Super important frequency area.

Oh yeah - compare the position of the M80M to an Ibanez multiscale like the RGDMS8. The difference in bridge pickup placement is incredible stark, especially on the low string (arguable the most important string to get right on an 8 string). -Kai

I think everyone needs to be reasonable when it comes to all this. It bothers me quite a bit NOT KNOWING THE TRUTH about what matters in an electric guitar. After doing these tests it's becoming so much more clear. Right now I think scale length is likely the most overlooked spec out there. It should likely be the first thing you think about. What tuning you play in and what kind of a brightness you want to have.

@@mlsoundlab very true, i mean if that wasn't the case what would be the point of baritone guitars, outside of tension?

@@ScoliosisMcGee Tuning lower becomes a problem obviously. It's so funny that a lot of guitarists think you need more strings to tune lower. The amount of strings makes absolutely no difference. Scale length is what it's all about. A Fender scale goes down to C or B quite well but after that you likely need more range. Remember that a regular scale 7-string is the same scale as a Fender tuned to B.

Oh yes most definitely! 😅

I'm sure it's an intentional move to pull the bridge pickup away slightly on a longer scale guitar. Remember that longer scale guitars will automatically be much brighter when tuned to the same tuning because of the string tension difference.

This is what I have been preaching ever since Glenn 'F@cking' Fricker demoed his rant on pickups do not impact distorted sound. I have a Schecter KM and an Ibanez RG Prestige, I swapped the KM Fishman bridge pickup to the Ibanez to verify his findings and what I found was the sound is different on each guitar. On the KM the sound is tinnier and the same pickup sounds FATTER on the Ibanez all because of the pickup placement. There is about a 1/2-inch difference in placement from the bridge.

@@mlsoundlab Not completely a fact, see my comment below. Both guitars are standard 25.5 scale, other than being from different manufacturers, the bridge pickup placement is extreme from each other.

​@@Shred_Rocket i bet you also figured that the difference becomes more noticeable the lower you tune them right ? I've got an RG and a cheap epiphone SG and they have very different specs, but besides scale length, the most obvious difference is that the epiphone g310 has a bridge pickup that is way to far from the bridge. I've always noticed that the epiphone sounded muddy and lost its "new string brightness" sooner, it also sounds thicker and thicker the lower you go in tuning, to the point of getting a bit undefined compared to the RG which keeps a rather "sharp" sound.

Intentional maybe?

True! -Kai

Not sure if you're being cheeky. He's talking about 2200 Hz. Within your stated range of hearing, brother.

The pickups had short legs, and was taped to the top of the guitar for the samples - this allowed it to be freely moved around for the testing. -Kai