Postmodernism is just misunderstood + Answering comments on "Weakness Corrupts"

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essentialsalts

essentialsalts

4 ай бұрын

It's been too long, time to test out the new cam.

Пікірлер: 121
@kennethanderson8827
@kennethanderson8827 4 ай бұрын
I learned of Professor Sugrue’s death while listening to the Pascal episode on Tuesday. That news hurt. His lecture videos popped up on my KZfaq feed during Covid, for no apparent reason. I wasn’t a consumer of online philosophy, only history, as far as academic material is concerned. That “accident”, changed my life, and, in a circuitous way, led me to the great Nietzsche Podcast. I guess I’m trying to say that if I was gonna receive such shitty news, I’m glad it was from someone as respectful as yourself. Michael definitely doesn’t owe Asclepius a cock, chicken, or rusty weather vane.
@mixerD1-
@mixerD1- 24 күн бұрын
Something similar for me. Totally agree.🤞🏻👍🏻🫡
@Ajajajjddjd1917
@Ajajajjddjd1917 4 ай бұрын
I love your podcast so much. It completely changed how I see the world and helped me end a toxic relationship with my ex girlfriend that has borderline personality disorder.
@victorcode2075
@victorcode2075 4 ай бұрын
I found this channel recently, and am blown away by the content. You are miles better than any lecturer I've had. Thank you!
@rb5519
@rb5519 3 ай бұрын
For all these years I’ve thought of the idea of “will to power” as offensive to my sensibilities. (Based on never having read anything by Nietzsche) Your recent pair of Deleuze videos put this in a new light, to say the least! It struck me that I can hardly wrap my brain around what real power looks like. What we take to be “power” in contemporary society is really weakness. This thought brought me back to the book “Narcissism” by Alexander Lowen which I read in the 80s. In it he said that the pursuit of power is really an attempt to compensate for an inner sense of humiliation. That’s the kind of behavior that is presented to us as power in society. (of course, never mentioning the humiliation part).
@22ChampagneSupernova
@22ChampagneSupernova 4 ай бұрын
Love the Mazzy Star shirt :D
@amodernpolemic
@amodernpolemic 4 ай бұрын
I really appreciate that you invoked the Melian Dialogue. I get the sense that it had a big impact on Nietzsche's thought.
@drgordo112
@drgordo112 4 ай бұрын
I agree that Neitzsche is a proto-postmodernist.
@Villainilla
@Villainilla 4 ай бұрын
I think it's generally more fun to play with these ideas even if we may disagree with them. All I know is that Will to Power made me self aware of my own resentment and how miserable it made me, how it helped excuse my desire to inflict abuse. It also made me aware that if I excersize my power without resentment I'm still likely to hurt someone, but it's different frim wanting to abuse someone else. It's fun to me to have these meditations and decided on how I want to move forward in life. Also you look like you're fun to have a coffe and a chat with :) very handsome!
@cheri238
@cheri238 3 ай бұрын
Thanks! Dr. Sugrue, RiP 🙏❤ was awesome!! I am trying to catch up and I think you are amazing .
@raucousriley143
@raucousriley143 Ай бұрын
Discovered you from Weltgeist. You have great content, and nice shirt too. Mazzy Star Rocks
@westonsmith1271
@westonsmith1271 3 ай бұрын
Amazing channel, thank you
@untimelyreflections
@untimelyreflections 3 ай бұрын
Thank you!
@PinoSantilli-hp5qq
@PinoSantilli-hp5qq 3 ай бұрын
Pleasure to listen to you. You have a pleasant voice and speak well. Pretty level headed all around...
@bryanutility9609
@bryanutility9609 4 ай бұрын
Weakness corrupts is the best video you’ve done. I have several friends who live in frustration & resentment always focused on “the bad guys”. They suck ive stopped being around them: 😂
@vikramchatterjee4495
@vikramchatterjee4495 4 ай бұрын
“In a healthy marriage or relationship, you’re in it because you love the other person.” -essentialsalts “What is youth? A dream. What is love? The dream’s content” -Kierkegaard
@drbeavis4211
@drbeavis4211 3 күн бұрын
Dr. Sadler, who has been studying philosophy for several decades now, recommends the book "Postmodernism, or, The cultural logic of late capitalism" by Fredric Jameson if you really want to learn about postmodernism. I have only read a few pages of it myself as I managed to rent a copy online... but yeah, just figured I'd throw that out there for anybody that wants to actually dig into the subject. Sadler knows far more than your average person and I trust his recommendations.
@OverOnTheWildSide
@OverOnTheWildSide 2 ай бұрын
As a right-wing voter I appreciate that you address those issues and how you do so.
@bholenathvalsan8531
@bholenathvalsan8531 Ай бұрын
@Michael S this is the second time (different Nietzsche podcast episode) I see someone asking Keegan about Rudolph Steiner, Steiner was a lot of things, but not a philosopher. I know his writings may trick you into thinking it's philosophy but it's esoteric or occult literature.
@alexanderandro1895
@alexanderandro1895 2 ай бұрын
I could pick at several of the things in here but I'd rather praise you for pointing out that Ben Shapiro was making a moral relativist argument, while the anti statue mob was being absolutist. I feel stupid for having missed that at the time, and if someone makes you feel stupid you are indebted to them, thank you sir.
@kalervolatoniittu2011
@kalervolatoniittu2011 2 ай бұрын
There's a mountain between now and being truly powerful
@ClearLight369
@ClearLight369 4 ай бұрын
Scepticism is often used strategically as a wedge to dislodge the views you oppose, so that you can replace them with your own views. Of course, scepticism I also used, by for example Montaigne, to argue for conservatism. Since we can never know for sure if social change will work, we might as well stick with the status quo.
@WonderstoneTraining
@WonderstoneTraining 3 ай бұрын
"Reject Post Modernism. Embrace Post Traditionalism. Now with two scoops of raisins in every box." - Post Evola 🙋
@CyanAblaze
@CyanAblaze 3 ай бұрын
Postess - now that's the stuff
@WonderstoneTraining
@WonderstoneTraining 3 ай бұрын
😅this guy gets it@@CyanAblaze
@AngerTW
@AngerTW 3 ай бұрын
looking at western society alone, we can see developement in moral standards (with slavery, women rights, homosexuality - just to focus on recent times). does that mean that universal truths don’t exist or are we getting „closer to the truth” as time goes by? and one more thing, I remember hearing a Chomsky quote, where he said „postmodernism is like scepticism. both ideas can be discussed abstractly during a philosophy seminar, but nobody actually lives their life 100% according to those rules. they wouldn’t survive 5 minutes in the real world.” what would be your take on that? or how is your postmodern friend dealing with life? thank you for your perspective. it was interesting to listen to. keep em coming!
@drgordo112
@drgordo112 4 ай бұрын
Audio sounds good!
@LetsDrawStuff
@LetsDrawStuff 4 ай бұрын
We should get a Nietzschian analysis of saltburn
@alexanderleuchte5132
@alexanderleuchte5132 4 ай бұрын
'Every command leaves behind a painful sting in the person who is forced to carry it out.' - Elias Canetti "Crowds and Power" The concept of the "Befehlsstachel", "the thorn of an order", to me is an interesting metaphor for one aspect of how "Weakness Corrupts" and compells the subject of power to pass along these stings or suffer psychological consequences if they dont get discharged somehow
@CH4R10T_TV
@CH4R10T_TV 3 ай бұрын
I really liked this talk and appreciated the commentary. I do agree with some of the points about people misreading your video and Nietzsche. I would hope people would be fair to your point of view there. Reading Nietzsche was an eye-opening moment for me, and I'm still trying to work through some of the implications of On the Genealogy of Morality in terms of how I look at the world. I'm not a hundred percent on board with some of the commentary about postmodernism and the left; on the one hand, I totally agree that the two have been antagonistic at times. Feminists have been tearing into David Foster Wallace's work for quite some time (ex: Patricia Lockwood's review of his more recent posthumously published novel), whereas if you look at the work of someone like Thomas Pynchon, you can sometimes detect a distinct skepticism of left-wing movements (ex: the narrative of Vineland as a kind of cynicism of 60's era activism). On the other hand, when you describe left-wingers tearing down statues as having a concept of morality that is eternal -- relative to history and how they perceive it -- I'm not sure that's true. For a start, I don't think moral condemnation of history is the only justification given for tearing down the statues; when activists describe the statues as being erected by conservatives to intimidate black Americans and to reinforce and perpetuate certain values lionizing the Confederacy, they seem to be objecting to something ongoing. Of course, there are left-wingers who think as you describe, but I would say that's not the whole picture. Moral condemnation, in my opinion, is probably the least interesting way to engage with history, except for moral condonation. I think there's a little trouble with figures like Hicks, where I tend to see affirmative citations of his approach towards postmodernism and those things he associates with it as being argued in bad faith. There's that trap you mentioned where he and others seem to feel antagonized by what they detect as the conclusions of postmodernism, and works backwards from there. If we were comfortable reading a certain conservatism or traditionalism into Hicks's work -- or Peterson's public advocacy for that matter, which at least seems plausible to me as I'm more familiar -- then it seems like it would follow that it could be useful to make blanket conflations about postmodernism to create an appeal to a lost modernism that can be retrieved from the past or traditions. Whether we want to read that into Hicks's work textually or just see it in how his work is cited, I do think there's something to that view, especially since there seems to be a lot of conflation between postmodernism, Marxism, post-structuralism, and many instances of contemporary schools of art or left-wing thought generally. I bring this up as a hypothetical problem, as I need to read more. As a matter of personal preference, I think it works to consider Nietzsche as a proto-structuralist and proto-existentialist (a small edit here: I ran this past some friends and came away assured that it isn't *too* silly to call Nietzsche a proto-post-structuralist, which reads closer to what I meant, although classifying his work seems to have eluded scholars with good reason, so maybe it's all futile anyway). I don't think that's too controversial, and we can certainly see his influence in the thinkers of these movements and their successors. To wit, I tend to think of post-structuralism as the philosophical companion to postmodernism. I was confused for a long time by people making insinuations about postmodernism as a political ideology, because their accounts of it seemed to totally neglect the traditions of literature and literary criticism that birthed the concept, something I'm a little more familiar with. I don't recall hearing these fierce critics of postmodernism rant about John Barth's "The Literature of Exhaustion" or DFW's "E Unibus Pluram." They might find those texts provocative, if they approached them with an open mind! It's not that it's totally wrong to call some of the aforementioned philosophers like Foucault postmodern, it just feels like it's a description that is commonly reductively employed. Overall, I'm looking forward to checking out more of your work! This was a breath of fresh air.
@KimeruDerHund
@KimeruDerHund 4 ай бұрын
At risk of sounding like a kid, the misunderstanding of "are you saying those in power are good?!" Is the central conflict between Raiden and Senator Armstrong from Metal Gear Rising, The Strong for the later are those who can take and go their own directions, while his weak, as a politician, are those who gather and out of weakness and cowardice reach accord and then enforce this agreement upon the general populous through propaganda, his Weak include the ruling elite and anyone that follows them, while the protagonist's strong and weak are those who are in the situation of strength and weakness, not out of their will and action but due to their circumstances. In the vein of dramatic homeric-esque "anime media" their battle is their debate, not to be taken allegorically but literally and mythically, their battle ends with the naive protagonist, a war orphan forced since his weakest age to take the path of a "soldier", overpowering the antagonist but at the end integrating his understanding of the weak and strong Also, btw, the japanese have produced probably 90% of "nietzschean media" to this day, though its peak was in the mid 80's
@tevildo9383
@tevildo9383 4 ай бұрын
I feel like there are a lot of Nietzschean ideas in the Dark Souls series as well which also comes from Japan.
@jaspar2236
@jaspar2236 3 ай бұрын
Never played that game but perhaps I will now. Would you mind sharing some examples of Japanese media with Nietzschean themes?
@KimeruDerHund
@KimeruDerHund 3 ай бұрын
@jaspar2236 Saint Seiya (manga) and other works by Masami Kurumada, Ashita no Joe (not nietzschean itself but has a similar understanding of human nature to nietzsche), Getter Robo/Getter Saga (manga) along with this any other red robot powered by green energy because they are all inspired by getter (e.g. Gurren Lagann) I'll might edit later to add more examples, keep in mind that most of this works, rather than trying to showcase or explain a philosophy, are as the author feels the world is (due to eastern writing traditions) and are mostly aimed to kids and teens (though japan doesn't have the parents associations or cultural zeal to erradicate any "edgy" content for kids like Saint Seiya), unless the work is aimed by adults the nietzschean themes will be delivered esoterically and will ask of you knowledge of buddhism (which is the form of nihilism they usually argue against) And finally, due to all of this works being the literal foundation of anime you will find, especially in 70-90's anime, a lot of "casual nietzscheanism", just taking nietzschean ideas and views as presuppositions, maybe some sort of shortlived "cultural nietzscheanism" if you will
@tevildo9383
@tevildo9383 3 ай бұрын
@@jaspar2236 The Dark Souls games were made by a Japanese studio, From Software. The plot is somewhat obscure, so there are different interpretations of their meaning. But from my analysis, the central conflict of the story is basically the "death of God" and navigating faith and nihilism or trying to find a better way. There are some pretty clear references to Nietzsche, for example, the plot of the first game's DLC is basically Beyond Good and Evil 146: it revolves around a legendary knight who battled monsters from the Abyss (a literal location/dimension associated with destructive nihilism) but was eventually corrupted and became a monster himself. There are also some hints at Eternal Return throughout the series, and Fire is a major cosmological and philosophical element (so at least an association with Heraclitus). Even the core gameplay loop could be likened to "What does not kill me makes me stronger" because you are meant to learn the game's bosses through failure and perseverance. The in game explanation for this is that your character is undead and cannot be permanently killed, so the only way to truly fail your quest is to give up and become a "hollow," a mindless, purposeless zombie that attacks living beings on sight. The games also have some incredible tragic story arcs and lore. And they have some of the best third-person action gameplay ever (the only game I think surpasses them in this regard is that same studio's other game, Sekiro). I grew up playing video games, but the Dark Souls series (along with great RPGs like The Witcher) really convinced me that good games are legitimate art and more than just mindless fun.
@jaspar2236
@jaspar2236 3 ай бұрын
@@KimeruDerHund What your brought up about Japanese media against Buddhism by way of Nietzsche is very interesting. I have watched Gurren Lagann and I did get a unique feeling from it. Something profound in it, not sure what, but there's definitely life affirmation in spite of circumstances. So it's usually more implicit, I gather. Cool, perhaps I'll check out some of those series. Thanks 👍
@kalervolatoniittu2011
@kalervolatoniittu2011 4 ай бұрын
Good work 🙂
@johnheilman818
@johnheilman818 3 ай бұрын
Power provides opportunities, both honorable and corrupt. Lying to yourself allows oneself to feel justified while improving your life at the cost of others' lives. Thus self deception and power leans to evolutionary advantages, and so it's not that power corrupts, but that shortcomings are pervasive, leading to situations that lend to power corrupting.
@martyvandiest
@martyvandiest 3 ай бұрын
10:30 🎯 "who hurt you Genghis Kahn" 🤣
@turinhorse
@turinhorse 2 ай бұрын
great teeshirt! loved Mazzy Star for many years. How about doing a top 10 Doommetal bands video!?!? i just saw Windhand a few months ago. thoughts?
@untimelyreflections
@untimelyreflections 2 ай бұрын
That’s awesome! My band actually played with Windhand, many years ago. I might do a video about that, maybe more than top ten I’d feel more comfortable doing a video giving the best introductory albums to doom metal
@turinhorse
@turinhorse 2 ай бұрын
@@untimelyreflectionsAWESOME! Windhand and Black Pyramid are 2 of my most cherished bands. already loved your channel, now i'm a fan. look forward to that video. would be great fun
@turinhorse
@turinhorse 2 ай бұрын
@@untimelyreflectionsalso, would like to exorcise this memory from that Windhand concert if i may... small venue, got to the show early, Dorthia comes out and hangs at the bar talking to a friend (?) and suddenly all my Nietzsche honed will to power shrivels in my miserable shell and i dont go talk to her. in the moment i called it politeness in not interrupting her, maybe i didnt wanna appear like a common gushing groupie. but i really regret not pushing it forward. amor fati
@cheri238
@cheri238 3 ай бұрын
Thank you so much!! RIP 🙏❤️ Dr. Sugre. I am very grateful for your videos, amazing. Jordan Peterson, I totally understand why I disagree with him, although he is intelligent. I love your videos
@villevanttinen908
@villevanttinen908 6 күн бұрын
I think too many are thinking this will to power "too humanistic way", The Will Itself is creating values, meanings and qualities, so that means: no free will. Is it was it is. Heidegger is kind of extension to Nietzsches philosophy and he helps a lot, at least I think so.
@Drunkwithsuccess
@Drunkwithsuccess 4 ай бұрын
That was fun
@goodroach9984
@goodroach9984 3 ай бұрын
You know for a long time I felt philosophy was utilized politically or it was either a product of political thinking, but as time went on I more or less reached your conclusion. I like how people have found ways to utilize their philosophies as they bring attention. At the same time, I am a little troubled that it might have brought the wrong kind of attention that would change the overall doctrine of philosophy, commodifying it for political ammunition. However, I don't think it's something to be too troubled about as I don't think it would ever change the root of philosophy, which is to understand the human condition. Though I guess even that definition might be called into question, lol.
@-Dekeita-
@-Dekeita- Ай бұрын
Interesting watching this after you interview Stephen Hicks. Lol maybe a little harsh saying hes running a grift xD But I do agree with the central point here that Nietzsche is a proto-postmodernist. I'd be curious to hear how the interview came about given your criticism of him here.
@GaryZellman
@GaryZellman 3 ай бұрын
What is revaluation of all values, and how is it relevant to doing away with meta-narratives (i.e. the ethos of postmodernism)? I'm not sure Nietzsche had in mind toppling of statues as an essential part of bringing about a new morality. The one thing the political right has that cultural leftists lack is a meta-narrative about the West. Its roots are in political liberalism, protection from government tyranny and tyranny of minority (not racial or ethnic) groups, respect for civil and human rights of racial, ethnic, religious minority groups, and representative government. This is why I think your point about leftist protesters applying one humanistic standard (i.e. a meta-narrative) to judging historical figures is a superficial one--- because they reinvent their values on a regular basis. Is that what Nietzsche would want? One group that used to have cultural clout can be deemed a pariah these days because of proximity to "whiteness" or "privilege." It is maddening to try to keep up with their diverging viewpoints. They have atomized the individual to the point of declaring war on a solidifying cultural (not ethnic, racial, religious) identity. Has postmodernism found a better inheritor of its credo than the cultural left?
@kenhiett5266
@kenhiett5266 3 ай бұрын
I agree, but there's a social/group component that's common and separate from the power dynamic you're speaking to.
@tevildo9383
@tevildo9383 3 ай бұрын
Just ranting, but I really wish Jordan Peterson would “give the devil his due,” so to speak, and actually do some proper analysis and exegesis of Nietzsche. I enjoyed that one video he made talking about Beyond Good and Evil § 6 for 40 minutes. And I was excited for a minute when he brought up Eternal Return in his latest discussion with Michael Malice. Even though I agree that Jordan has misrepresented the death of God, I don’t hate him and I would love to see him give Nietzsche’s ideas some serious attention rather than just throwing his name around and occasionally quoting him without context or proper explanation.
@alexanderleuchte5132
@alexanderleuchte5132 4 ай бұрын
"We had everything we needed in the forest, life was good. Now everything is expensive and life is stressfull." - A member of the Mentawai tribe
@ZM-dm3jg
@ZM-dm3jg 4 ай бұрын
That is an extremely flawed Rousseauian perspective. Just look at any survival TV show and you'll see how absolutely brutal nature is and how grateful we should be for civilization. Also, tribes go to war constantly, not over resources, but mostly over women. The myth of the Nobel, peaceful savage was propaganda.
@virtue_signal_
@virtue_signal_ 3 ай бұрын
The good old days probably weren't as good as we 'remember'.
@alexanderleuchte5132
@alexanderleuchte5132 3 ай бұрын
@@virtue_signal_ These people talk about their personal expirience of having the direct comparison and not some idealized fantasy of a golden age past
@ZM-dm3jg
@ZM-dm3jg 3 ай бұрын
​@virtue_signal_ Most people who have nostalgia for a period such as the Victorian era or the middle ages assume they would have been part of the aristocratic or bourgeoisie class even though they're not in the 1% today. Life really aucked for 90-99% of the population who were in the peasant classes
@alexanderleuchte5132
@alexanderleuchte5132 3 ай бұрын
@@ZM-dm3jg Life really aucks for 90-99% of the population who are in the peasant classes nowadays too
@piushalg5041
@piushalg5041 3 ай бұрын
One can appreciate Nietzsche ery much for truly explaining what post modernism means. And his desire to overcome nihilism has obviously failed Instead of it we have become the last men described by Zarathustra.
@the0nlytrueprophet942
@the0nlytrueprophet942 4 ай бұрын
You look exactly like what I want my Nietczhe guru to look like.
@rb5519
@rb5519 3 ай бұрын
War. What is it good for? Scientific and technological advancements. -Matt Christman (very loosely paraphrased)
@drgordo112
@drgordo112 4 ай бұрын
I lived in Sweden for a while. The mentality is collectivism over individualism. Any hint of individualism can come across as bragging (see Rules of Jante).
@michaelrussell7806
@michaelrussell7806 3 ай бұрын
Nietzsche is a concise and beautiful writer whose ideas can be readily digested, even if you disagree with him. The problem with those who came after him who aped his style and ideas (Derrida, Foucault) are that their philosophy is couched in a style that is just the opposite - intentionally obtuse, full of jargon, like a magic trick more than serious thinking. Most postmodern writing is just crap, and the people who pretend to understand it are irritating.
@drgordo112
@drgordo112 4 ай бұрын
The only problem with postmodernism is postmodernists!
@tangerinesarebetterthanora7060
@tangerinesarebetterthanora7060 3 ай бұрын
Postmodernists are a bunch of resentful pencil necks.
@kennethanderson8827
@kennethanderson8827 3 ай бұрын
This is a comment unrelated to this video, but given that it’s an election year- oh, goody goody gumdrops!, I feel compelled to offer some advice in these idiotic, and hyper political times. If you feel overwhelmed by the angst that the divisiveness of our times tricks you into, as the media driven spell that it is (and nothing more), go read On the New Idol, and On the Flies of the Marketplace in book one of Zarathustra. The perspective I get from it is not only liberating, it’s deep, and really funny.
@user-jr5vy2bg5q
@user-jr5vy2bg5q 3 ай бұрын
Keegan, while history may have been written by the victors, the internet had given every loser a voice. It doesn't take much to realize the implications.
@HammyGiblets
@HammyGiblets 3 ай бұрын
Fade into....
@water4112
@water4112 4 ай бұрын
How does one gain power though?
@Ajajajjddjd1917
@Ajajajjddjd1917 4 ай бұрын
Power is capacity
@tangerinesarebetterthanora7060
@tangerinesarebetterthanora7060 3 ай бұрын
Through the unification of your instincts towards a particular goal.
@water4112
@water4112 3 ай бұрын
@@tangerinesarebetterthanora7060 and how would one unify all their instincts?
@deathhexxxgaming3431
@deathhexxxgaming3431 3 ай бұрын
I just thanks god this page only has 200ish likes and 30K views....
@coorz64
@coorz64 4 ай бұрын
53:00 This is 100% true. Unfortunately, there are many disingenuous people who seek out philosophy content to reaffirm post-hoc conclusions. As your account grows in popularity, you may come across more people who are less interested in an open exploration of philosophical ideas, even ideas that may run contrary to my personal views. Keep up the great content!
@alexanderleuchte5132
@alexanderleuchte5132 4 ай бұрын
I recommend the video "Asking Hunter-Gatherers Life's Toughest Questions" here on KZfaq, they have some very interesting thoughts on Postmodernity
@keylanoslokj1806
@keylanoslokj1806 4 ай бұрын
It's a form of degeneration and incapacitation of the species. We Are detaching from nature, and harming everyone long-term.
@yogiafricankumarsanu3181
@yogiafricankumarsanu3181 4 ай бұрын
Krishna is the overman history has ever witnessed.
@shmaughn
@shmaughn 4 ай бұрын
I think the postmodernism the left uses is more in the poststructuralist area.
@luiscrespo9902
@luiscrespo9902 4 ай бұрын
39:58 Incoherent ideas gain their power from human corruptibility and natural selfishness. That is, if all is relative, I'm free to, selfishly, do as I wish having no restraining canon. A dogma that allows me to do whatever I want (as postmodern ideology may suggest to many), to not be restrained by value systems which are in any case "relative," is always welcome.
@untimelyreflections
@untimelyreflections 4 ай бұрын
I agree. It seems therefore that a faith in individual human reason would be misplaced.
@kenhiett5266
@kenhiett5266 3 ай бұрын
​@@untimelyreflections I think you're confused about the perspective on postmodernism from the public figures you mentioned. It's not that it doesn't have legitimacy. The problem is that it's contradictive in practical application. Postmodern philosophy is an endless splitting of hairs that's antithetical to a cooperative society and human flourishing more broadly. This is why the brilliant Nietzsche fell flat on the answers to his own insights. I would argue that a 180 year old healthy Nietzsche would still be flailing for answers to his own questions to this very day. Herein lies the problem with our predicament. I suspect a direct conversation with Peterson or Hicks would be enlightening for you. I don't say this to belittle in any way, but I think you have a straw man perspective on both of them.
@kenhiett5266
@kenhiett5266 3 ай бұрын
​@@untimelyreflections The idea that postmodern philosophy is irrelavant to the ideologies of the modern left is so ridiculous, I can't believe you said it. Where do you think these ideas about gender identity come from? What about the rejection of merit? Have you seen the polling data on race relations over the last several decades? Turns out that focusing on differences leads to division. Who would have thought? Ideologies brought on by postmodern philosophy have left western acedemia in tatters, but there's nothing of it? The STEM fields are predictably more resilient, but even those departments have been infiltrated. You need to learn the difference between theoretical philosophy and praxis. You're several moves behind, my friend.
@kalervolatoniittu2011
@kalervolatoniittu2011 2 ай бұрын
This is not the subject here,but have you been in Finland ever ?
@Ozscaro
@Ozscaro 4 ай бұрын
So still no answer about Khan....😂 and if obsence of power corrupts because of weak character than power also corrupts for same reason.
@untimelyreflections
@untimelyreflections 4 ай бұрын
There was an answer: Genghis Khan probably didn’t hurt people because he was weak, but then he probably didn’t hurt people for the sake of hurting. The fact that I don’t have perfect psychological knowledge of Genghis Khan’s inner states makes it difficult to say anything else that isn’t speculation. Also if your takeaway is “power corrupts because of weak character”, you misunderstood.
@amodernpolemic
@amodernpolemic 4 ай бұрын
You don't think there's a mind-independent reality? The universe existed long before humans evolved (I understand you realize that). But what about physical consequences? I might think in my mind that I can breathe water, but if I put that to the test, I would drown. I might think that I could fly if I jumped off a cliff, but in practice that would result in me falling to my death because of gravity, which I would call objective truth. I don't know the implications of this knowledge in terms of how we should live or what we should do, and ultimately I go with more of a William James approach. You may already know this too, but from Professor Sugrue's KZfaq channel there is a video of Professor Staloff lecturing on William James where he calls him a sort of American Nietzsche. I quite like that idea. Anyway, just here for the discussion. I don't know shit.
@amodernpolemic
@amodernpolemic 4 ай бұрын
I take your point that Nietzsche's idea of power included political power, but I would assert that he primarily meant creative power (though who knows for sure). Creative power comes from nature and isn't derived from your relation to other people (e.g. being dictator of a state). It seems to me that while the dictator of a state or someone of that ilk has influence over people's lives, they are in fact quite weak and pathetic by nature. They are weak and pathetic for needing to dictate other people just to fabricate a sense of power for themselves. The most profound power is found in the individual who can create values for themselves to live by--in other words, a lack of neediness.
@untimelyreflections
@untimelyreflections 4 ай бұрын
The point is not that power comes from the relation to others. The point is precisely that ressentiment arises as a result of a power imbalance in relationship to others. The video was not attempting to talk about “power” in the abstract, but the reason why a lack of power in relation to the external world creates the breeding ground for ressentiment and bad conscience (“weakness”).
@amodernpolemic
@amodernpolemic 4 ай бұрын
@@untimelyreflections I understand and I agree. And unfortunately for the last few years I have been testament to your point. Something I'm striving to overcome.
@okaytoletgo
@okaytoletgo 4 ай бұрын
Greetings from a woman in rural Vermont USA. How are others settling with the set of this stream? How about putting the camera and mike a little further away from your face/body--it covers a lot of it in this stream--and perhaps more set behind you. P.S. A presenter others might find interesting is Ken Liberman of coffee tasting descriptors fame. (kzfaq.info/get/bejne/g8eBaNFhnti8Z3U.html) Phenomenology Edmund Husserl on Objectivation, Intersubjectivity and Community Affairs. He learned Tibetan, spent 3 years at Sera and wrote a book about the debate practice in the yards. It's entitled Dialectical Practice in Tibetan Philosophical Culture, An Ethnomethodological Inquiry into Formal Reasoning.
@niev1111
@niev1111 3 ай бұрын
nice eyelashes
@AshRivers-xz2pk
@AshRivers-xz2pk 4 ай бұрын
THAT’S WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE !?
@untimelyreflections
@untimelyreflections 4 ай бұрын
I’ve shown my face on the channel many times 😅
@BlackMantisRed
@BlackMantisRed 4 ай бұрын
What people need to realise when it comes to politicians you can have weak politicians and you can have strong politicians. In the UK so many of the people in politics are flabby lazy old men who seem to resent and fear the general public. They seem to fear the possibility of losing their jobs for having differing opinions. This all comes from a place of weakness. Since freewill does not exist people can be born weak fill themselves up with hatred towards the strong then later find themselves in positions of power without shaking that weakness off.
@LetsFindOut1
@LetsFindOut1 Ай бұрын
27:30 have you read Jordan Peterson's 1999 book maps of meaning? im not being disparaging towards you. I genuinely want to hear your critique of his more rigorous work because I don't have the academic background to completely understand the context in which he discusses the ideas of nietzsche, religion, psychology, and his general philosophy of being. it seems to be a recurring pattern that almost no one who criticizes Jordan Peterson has ever read that book, and that's where his attempt to merge science and religion is fully flushed out. i've read it but I'm no academic and I'm still trying to understand it. He only wrote that one book until he came out with 12 rules for life recently, so it's not like there's a pile of books to have to slog through to find his true philosophy. I don't understand why people who criticize him don't just read it to understand his full point of view instead of criticizing a snippet of what he fleshes out over 100s of pages in his book. I guess you could argue that a philosophy lacks merit if you can't summarize it over an hour or two, but I think he's tapped into some deep truths that are well worth someone of your academic caliber investigating. I enjoy listening to your podcast. Id would love to hear a critique of that work on the level that you give to other thinkers.
@untimelyreflections
@untimelyreflections Ай бұрын
I read that book before most of you even knew who Jordan Peterson was. I *love* that book. He’s not correct about Nietzsche or postmodernism, though.
@amodernpolemic
@amodernpolemic 4 ай бұрын
"What do you do with the people who don't agree with that central value?" It's funny you should say that. I've often felt like the mere fact I exist is proof that Plato, Descartes, and Kant were wrong. Just because they wanted humans to be rational doesn't mean we are.
@BlackMantisRed
@BlackMantisRed 3 ай бұрын
If I am honest I cannot see Nietzcha as being a big Slavoj Žižek fan.
@floydgb1
@floydgb1 3 ай бұрын
Playing "the devil's peterson": I think Peterson would agree with you that nietzsche is a proto-post-modernist, the key word, I imagine he'd say, is "proto". I think peterson acknowledges the idiosyncrasy in his dire opposition to "post-modernist cultural marxism" juxtaposed with his love/obsession with Nietzsche - arguably the first post-modernist. I think peterson feels it all went wrong somehow immediately after Nietzsche, and this culminates in his disdain of foucault specifically. I think its obviously political with peterson, devon's left-wing lense of foucault is what peterson opposes (for whatever reason - personal political power probably) To be charitable: Peterson genuinely loves Nietzsche's ideas, and i don't think he cherry picks - he's read the books obviously. So, he wants to separate nietzsche from the rest of the post-modernist herd that peterson considers somehow politically left-wing. Is this so bad or "inconsistent"? or is peterson simply explaining his views (political and idiosyncratic as they are... arent we all)? To put the historical context on it: Peterson was harangued for his views as he went on paid college speaking tours by democrat party activist undergrads. That made him mad and also famous. This group of undergrads at top colleges around the US and UK is who he's mad at. This is who he thinks are "cultural marxists" though I think he thinks they don't know it. This all ties into recent ideas you've covered on weakness, resentment and corruption. That's as much due as I can give the devil.. So, ultimately, I agree that peterson's politics seem petty since he's given very little rational justification for moraly castigating quote, "post-modern cultural marxism" as evil. He's mad at the undergrads but he's blaming some esoteric theory it seems. Genuine question: Is there ANY literature on cultural marxists or did peterson make that term up? He's spent years demonizing this theory and I can't summon a shred of reasonable argumentation explaining his issues other than his ceaseless descriptions of gulag archipelagos from the soviet union a century ago. Gulags bad, Agreed. Often peterson comes off as a hammer looking for a nail, trying to find a high falutin narrative to support news-cycle political talking points - his 9-5 is political punditry after all. Anyway, You did a great job of explaining a more refined view of how post-modernism can, in fact, deconstruct the individual entirely rather than collectively. Great show, keep up the great work!
@untimelyreflections
@untimelyreflections 3 ай бұрын
Lmao at “the devil’s Peterson”!!! But also good comment.
@user-jr5vy2bg5q
@user-jr5vy2bg5q 3 ай бұрын
There is literature by the Frankfurt School, a whole bibliography so to speak. Keegan did an interview with a professor (Mark Levine) on the podcast that shed a lot of light on what Peterson sees as a boogyman.
@s.lazarus
@s.lazarus 3 ай бұрын
"ANY literature on cultural marxists or did peterson make that term up?" The way Peterson uses it is mostly a made up term, or at the very least, corrupted by paranoid liberal/conservative critics. I've come across different uses of the term where it tends to mean a shift of focus from privileging economic phenomena as the main determinant of social structure or historical phenomena, towards culture or ideology being more important for analysis and political action. So whereas classical marxist analysis -a la marxism leninism, or dialectical materialism from the Soviet Union, and beyond- emphasized "economics" -following the metaphor [first *suggested* by Marx in his preface to the Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy] of the division of society into the economic base and the political, juridical, ideological superstructure- so called "cultural marxism" started emphasizing culture, ideology, etc. Who are these authors that started elevating the superstructure as main point of analysis? Well, some trace it back to the Italian Communist Party's famous theoretician Antonio Gramsci, who relabeled the "economic base" as the "infrastructure". Others simply point to the Frankfurt School's shift from economics to culture. There are more. Truth in point is that Engels already countered misinterpretations of the materialist conception of history merely privileging the "economic base" instead of other fields of social structure. Here's a quote from a letter he wrote to J. Bloch: "According to the materialist conception of history, the ultimately determining element in history is the production and reproduction of real life. Other than this neither Marx nor I have ever asserted. Hence if somebody twists this into saying that the economic element is the only determining one, he transforms that proposition into a meaningless, abstract, senseless phrase. The economic situation is the basis, but the various elements of the superstructure - political forms of the class struggle and its results, to wit: constitutions established by the victorious class after a successful battle, etc., juridical forms, and even the reflexes of all these actual struggles in the brains of the participants, political, juristic, philosophical theories, religious views and their further development into systems of dogmas - also exercise their influence upon the course of the historical struggles and in many cases preponderate in determining their form." www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/letters/90_09_21.htm Notice how he doesn't even say that economics is ultimately determinant but "the production and reproduction of real life" (something already mentioned in The German Ideology, and reiterated in The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State), even though immediately he appears to characterize this as "the economic situation". There is much to say, but life is at the center of Marx and Engels revolutionary vision. Make what you'd like about that. It's important to say that they're not entirely innocent about how people posthumously treated their work, there are places where they seem like hard economic determinists, other places where they're more lax, and places where they're more ambiguous. A great number of revolutionaries, theoreticians, and academics have tried to glide through these formulations appealing to the magic word "dialectics". My suggestion? Take it with a grain of salt. It's two revolutionary visionaries struggling with their own changing view points and trying to express them as best as possible. They were not doctrinaires hailing a new creed, nor did they try to create a doctrine or a new dogma, like some did using their work. But also, they were not wimps avoiding influence or risk; like everyone else, they were affirming their own perspectives, impulses, and forces, within the revolutionary movements of their time. After all, they did not invent the word "communism", they merely placed it front-stage, following the pre-marxist proletarians and revolutionaries who called themselves communists. Sincerely, a communist who loves Nietzsche. P.S. There's also no such thing as "historical materialism", there's only a materialist conception of history. Much more methodologically open, if you like. Life is at center of it. Just like life is at the center of Nietzsche's thought.
@h80096
@h80096 3 ай бұрын
Nah JP wants you to read Nietzsche so you can understand it… and not do it. Because Nietzsche is right
@damienpace7350
@damienpace7350 4 ай бұрын
Dude philosophy underlies politics. Sorry you don't see that
@untimelyreflections
@untimelyreflections 4 ай бұрын
Will to power drives politics. Your political philosophies are a fun distraction for intellectuals.
@untimelyreflections
@untimelyreflections 4 ай бұрын
@BeckyYork Except I don’t see “Will to service” in nature. I see things eating each other, extracting energy from other lifeforms so that they can reproduce their own forms.
@damienpace7350
@damienpace7350 4 ай бұрын
@@untimelyreflections its just a wrong take mate. I don't want to criticise you because I love your show, but will to power might be at the core of the onion of human behaviour but its not all its layers. Its massively reductionist and misleading to say that it is. Society orients itself around norms, moral stances and accepted consensus. These also change over time. Its ok for Ghengis Khan to create mounds of skulls its not ok for us to that do. So what's an 'ok' thing to do at any given time? That depends on social, moral, philosophical arguments and positions. Whilst obviously a lot of what is said online in political/philosophical circles is a wank, that's also true for most of anything that's said. Nonetheless WHY our current politics work the way they do and why our current consensuses have been reached is a philosophical and moral examination that needs to be discovered not explained away by a non answer such as 'will to power'. Yes people want power, now why does our current society work the way it does?
@untimelyreflections
@untimelyreflections 4 ай бұрын
@@damienpace7350 I disagree its a wrong take. Sure, people adopt social, moral, philosophical positions - but why do they adopt them? Are they argued into them? A philosopher can only convince the masses of something that they will find convincing, and they'll find convincing what makes sense to them according to their perspective and what gives them advantage. Take Marxist revolutions that created socialist states. If you think that the reason why there were socialist revolutions is *because* of Marx, that completely ignores the fact that there was a material basis for those revolutions. If there wasn't a proletarian underclass for whom the Marxist theory would be motivating, they wouldn't have revolted in the name of Marxism, but some other idea. We actually have counter-examples, such as when the Iranians revolted, but established a government on the basis of Islam because that was the idea that resonated with people there - Marxism was not an intuitive or indigenous idea and it didn't take root in the soil. So I'm not denying that people have moral, religious, or philosophical ideas - I'm denying that rational discourse or debate, or disseminating concepts into the 'marketplace of ideas' is what drives politics. I don't think that people read a philosopher and then decide to onboard values that they'd never held before, or reject values that are plainly advantageous to themselves or those they have social bonds with. > , now why does our current society work the way it does? Our current society is run by technocrats who have figured out that society can be managed like a Skinner box, and since average people are driven by desires (conscious or unconscious), they can be manipulated on the basis of those desires. I think most of the philosophical or political discourse that takes place amongst this underclass is yet another means of occupying the attention of the masses/fulfilling their desires (i.e., their will to power is sublimated into intellectual competitions rather than physical).
@damienpace7350
@damienpace7350 4 ай бұрын
@@untimelyreflections I don't want to take you too far away from your work by drawing you into a discussion but I would like to say a couple of things. On something like the communist revolution you're arguing that they couldn't have taken place without the economic conditions. Well sure but they also couldn't have taken place without theorists like Marx which was essential for the Bolshevik movement. So I don't see what the dispute is, Marx was necessary. Is this just an argument of chicken or egg? On seeing society as a Skinner box run by technocrats, that's true of course but not a full picture. People consent to technocrat control provided they're within certain theoretical and philosophical bounds. They become discredited and vulnerable when they're outside of them. Some controlled outlets of discontent might be allowed by authority figures but it's all a matter of degree and these avenues can discredit a regieme. If a regieme is philosophical discredited and viewed as only working for itself it's weak. I can understand that people put too much credence on philosophy and politics in explaining things but to put NO weight on that whatsoever doesn't describe how reality works in practise and to me seems like a cope for people who have decided not to engage. Let's just say that the Greeks and Romans took politics seriously and didn't dismiss it all as kabuki theatre. Philosophical/political ideas also get dumbed down and percolate through the general community informing their understandings of life.
@Johnmaxveyyy
@Johnmaxveyyy 4 ай бұрын
You had great audio
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