Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)

Рет қаралды 104,404

Күн бұрын

Marty Cagan is a luminary in the world of product. He’s the author of two of the most foundational books for product teams and product leaders (Inspired and Empowered), he’s the founder of Silicon Valley Product Group (one of the longest-running product advisory groups), and he’s almost certainly worked with more product leaders and teams than any human alive. Now he’s releasing his newest book, Transformed, which is sure to become a staple of tech-powered companies worldwide. Marty’s previous appearance on our show remains one of the most popular episodes to date. In this conversation, we discuss:
• The rise of “product management theater”
• Changes in the PM role post-ZIRP and the shift from growth to build functions
• The disconnect between good product companies and online product advice
• How over-hiring has created challenges in the product industry
• The most important skills for PMs to build
• How to know if you’re on a “feature team”
• The potential disruption of product management by AI
• Marty’s new book, Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model
• Four new competencies required for successful product organizations
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Find the transcript and references at: www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/pr...
Where to find Marty Cagan:
• X: / cagan
• LinkedIn: / cagan
• Silicon Valley Product Group: www.svpg.com/
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: / lennysan
• LinkedIn: / lennyrachitsky
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Marty’s background
(04:46) His take on the state of product management
(12:08) Product management theater
(18:33) Feature teams vs. empowered product teams
(24:48) Skills of a real product manager
(29:27) The product management reckoning is here
(32:05) Taking control of your product management career
(34:59) The challenge of finding reliable product management advice
(40:18) The disconnect between good product companies and the product management community
(44:23) Top-down vs. bottom-up cultures
(47:06) The shift in product management post-ZIRP era
(49:44) The changing landscape of product management
(52:05) The disruption of PM skills by AI
(55:56) The purpose and content of Marty’s new book, Transformed
(01:02:05) The product operating model
(01:08:27) New competencies required for successful product teams
(01:11:25) Marty’s thoughts on product ops
(01:15:13) Advice for founders who don’t want product managers
(01:18:06) Lightning round
Production and marketing by penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Пікірлер: 96

@deannie39 3 күн бұрын

The clarifications in this interview were refreshing, particularly when Marty defined empowered teams: Product Leaders provide the bets and Product Teams provide the solutions. So powerful. And wow Lenny, nice to know that your interviewees find your podcast as interesting as the rest of us! Way to go sir!

@whattimeisitnow124 2 ай бұрын

Marty Cagan is sometimes too theoretical but I appreciate how Lenny pushes for practical advice.

@paq2643 Ай бұрын

I wished they go through an actual example for Top Down vs Product leaders doing product strategy. The challenge I see at times is when finding the sweet spot of what is a bet that leaders can hand down to product teams vs what is handing down a roadmap. Without finding that sweet spot, we get to confusing situations like when you disagree with leaders (see comment from @orgrinberg7977). This is maybe because of inconsistent language, they are confused on what is "features" to hand down vs "bets" to hand down. I haven't read the new book, so hopefully there are more details there.

@JonSchleicher 2 ай бұрын

I feel there is so much to what Marty is saying about really good people, "in Earnest" trying to do the right thing. "The willing worker" as deming used to say. There's so much to being lucky, to being fortunate enough to have the right exposure to truly Customer focused ways of working. Lots of noise to find healthy ways of working, i really care about the outcomes of teams and solving problems. The world is a better place for myself, my kids, my friends and it's sustainable all around. There's an og by the name of deming that focused on product experimentation almost 70 years ago. He was part of a group that transformed Japan in ww2. At the end of the day all the learnings and practices fell to "the prevailing system of management". Had gm and Ford not been bailed out by us government, theater may not be a description of modern knowledge work

@alexeyhimself 2 ай бұрын

Interviews with Marty are the ones I click "like" button first and then start watching. Thank you, Lenny! Thank you, Marty!

@EbiAtawodi 2 ай бұрын

Same ❤

@rajats497 2 ай бұрын

Ditto!

@buckstraw925 12 күн бұрын

The reality with many good cultures is that the product team is given a mix of "time to money" problems and "time to market" requirements to drive. In that very common scenario it is up to Product to find the optimal balance.

@tugcekasikci8027 2 ай бұрын

7:41 Lenny’s try to hold the onair face tight when Marty said he’s a paid subscriber 😂 11:57 Marty giving a reality check to all companies who’s polishing their ideas kn this podcast 😂😂

@futureskyline2033 2 ай бұрын

After listening through 50 mins about what is not, what is not, what is not, things start to click for me: It is more than delivery; it is more than optimization! It is about leading new value. (discover, shape, and bet new value through product offering). To the nutshell, Product Team (2.0) = Innovation + Product Team

@piotrpacewicz4108 2 ай бұрын

Great interview, from my experinece I can share that even when company wants to switch to product way , work on outcomes, not on outputs, company fails because accounting, board is not outcome driven. It is much easier for board and accouting to use feature factories, project approach for planning budget. So even when company experiments with empowerd product team at the end Product Manager is asked for road map of items and time table "you know, just for accounting, to get founding" and thats spoils whol way of working

@devikottary3937 2 ай бұрын

Listening to Marty always always takes you back to the foundational of Product. It is like a lemonade on a summer day. Refreshing! Thanks Lenny, you are the best as always.

@tjdoss Күн бұрын

Notes: Outcome over outputs. Value and viability. Creator and not facilitator. Expert on users, customers and Data. Deal with all issues. Deep understanding of market. PM vs FTPM.

@iamparagjain 2 ай бұрын

This podcast is amazing and eye opener to lot of people who just dont understand the product and project management. Thank you Lenny & Marty

@makerphin 2 ай бұрын

Really good vision of the state of product in 2024 One problem I have seen with empowered product teams vs. Feature teams : it’s too vague for executives. Telling them “we’ll improve the product and fix problems” against a feature that sales say could bring X in revenue. One seems concrete and brings B2B revenue, the other one seems more uncertain

@SA-cs5ci 2 ай бұрын

As a beginner explorer of this field feeling so fortunate to have the right definition of the role and everything around it from the best himself. Such a refreshing episode, thanks Marty AND Lenny for making this happen!

@anarchycharles 2 ай бұрын

I hope this episode serves as an awakening call to all the founders and product leaders who say we can’t do things this way. Truly valuable lesson here.

@Drackomass 2 ай бұрын

Fastest click to watch ever, love Marty Cagan.

@TomOrbach 2 ай бұрын

Lol same

@haywardtreysparks Ай бұрын

As someone who's an aspiring Product Manager super helpful to learn what Product Management ISN'T as well as what it IS! Rivian is my dream vehicle. Thanks for the great Podcast!

@wyattmadhani985 2 ай бұрын

For the most part I agree with Marty and love the candid perspective. I wonder if he has noticed something I have (15+ years), which is that many members of the executive management around product today are $$ people, i.e., lots of MBAs, many of whom have never worked in product at the hands-on level but are now SVPs of product or CPOs. The directives that come from these guys with an "or else" attached have changed the expectations of what the role is all about. It becomes a bit of a culture clash, no?

@orgrinberg7977 2 ай бұрын

As a PM for the last 6 years - Marty is 100% correct BUT when you have A set of managers and a board of directors, you are sometimes bound to deliver features you don't believe in. and if you disagree with them, you will quickly find yourself unemployed.

@mikeprice2038 2 ай бұрын

HPPO is a real problem.

@kensbrickstories Ай бұрын

This right here. i have just been fired for that exact reason.

@user-rq2di3zc3u 7 күн бұрын

Hi, could you please guide me that how did you get into PM? Thanks in advance

@orgrinberg 6 күн бұрын

@@user-rq2di3zc3u started as a Tech support and CRM specialist in a company i worked for and busted my ass off to get a chance , and luckily i did.

@sabke-bhagwan 2 ай бұрын

i have the same belief, the fact that the material and courses out in market is already spoiling our next generation which is a fact, i am going to contribute from my side on whatever i can, thank you @lenny for this one.

@raducrv1 Ай бұрын

I work in a company with feature teams and is exactly how Marty describes it.

@gustavocomitre 2 ай бұрын

Really good one, thanks Lenny and Marty, one of the best podcasts!

@tinyloudredhead 2 ай бұрын

Am i the only one snooping around Marty's book shelf? 😂

@vegahw 2 ай бұрын

I would love for him to dive deep into why feature teams form. I think the real reason of why we have roles like PO and “Product Assistants” is because leadership fails at strategy and outlining those bets to go after and it results in lack of focus (build all the things), which then results in feature teams. At least that’s how I see it.

@JonSchleicher 2 ай бұрын

Feature teams is very close to a relic of "fixed skill set bank accounts to deposit from when needed". Also known as "resources". Which traces back to the first modern innovation, assembly line, economies of scale, fordism, taylorism. Not new things, just self-propagating and hand me down leadership and product playbooks.

@Tubingonline1 Ай бұрын

That is an excellent insight. Thanks for sharing 👍

@user-iq3ti1yh6c 2 ай бұрын

Great podcast!!! Great guest!!! Super valuable information!!!

@alexanderferguson7520 2 ай бұрын

Marty is an OG in product thought and I'm so glad we got another round of this

@FMSims 2 ай бұрын

This was great. Will be sharing this widely!

@FarhaanMohideen 2 ай бұрын

Loved this podcast… have been following Marty for many years

@SocialDemocraciaPT 2 ай бұрын

Received the book last Monday 4th in Europe. I highly recommend getting the book Transformed (and the other 2 to complete the trilogy of PM) 😊

@ankur4270 2 ай бұрын

Marty Cagan is dope.💪

@jgonsalk 2 ай бұрын

Great interview! One criticism I've always had for Marty is that he argues that PMs should always do what the best companies do. I don't disagree, I work in a product led company. But I'd love to see some first principles thinking or, even better, empirical support for this approach. I wonder whether feature factories exist because the business model doesn't have the margin or opportunity to see substantial return from this approach or if they just have people who are incapable of doing this (I've definitely seen the latter)

@tinyloudredhead 2 ай бұрын

Given my background studies in enteprises at scale: "feature factory" or "sales led" orgs have one common problem statement: weak Marketing culture (push culture or bad understanding of market research and reuse) - That's why the industrial design parallel is relevant. The fact that a lot of money was thrown at "innovation" without validating a market need did not help. Herd mentality to have/want the latest feature isn't helping either. Some technologies may have been premature on the market. Also airbnb example- as much as airbnb is cool i wonder if Lenny would confirm if airbnb would have taken off for re-use of existing spaces if the morgage/2008 recession would not have forced people to find alternative revenues. Not fair to attribute success without the market conditions at the time. Here's the marketing history evolution which did not catch on at scale as a competency for a wider org instead of an "industrial age functional department" or people don't know its history to see how they are repeating old mistakes (reinventing the wheel - engineering or sales teams tend to lack this knowhow, sales may be just chasing quota, the conflict between sales and marketing is known and old in most orgs - outside the tech bubble) fullscale.io/blog/the-evolution-of-marketing/

@markspringfield6112 2 ай бұрын

Agree with everything said here. Crazy thing is the number of companies still hiring specifically for product ownership or product operations and insisting on SAFe certification. You can understand the difference between adding value and just going through the motions, but if the company that's hiring you doesn't then you're stuck competing with all of the feature team people.

@rachealcee 2 ай бұрын

Two of my faves!

@mimkusss4e Ай бұрын

Good talk - thank you both.

@Kamso316 2 ай бұрын

A product manager is a creator focused on value (to the customer) and viability (to the business). A product manager should be an: Expert on users and customers Expert on data Expert on sales, data, monetisation etc

@haywardtreysparks Ай бұрын

The most valuable part for me as someone trying to become a GREAT product manager.

@francismumbi49 2 ай бұрын

I am with Marty Cagan....

@vitorzucher435 2 ай бұрын

two legends get together.

@user-iq3ti1yh6c 2 ай бұрын

Dear Lenny, where is the information mentioned in podcast?!!! It is a such a useful feature!

@brettharper4778 2 ай бұрын

Hey Marty! Great interview!

@jninlove 2 ай бұрын

Great interview❤

@strantheman 2 ай бұрын

Many times the reason why they have so many project managers or product managers who do project management is they think the engineers can't be trusted to do the work on their own. They think they need some sort of authority figure over them to manage them.

@LWarrenF 2 ай бұрын

How about this one: a SAFe RTE + program manager for just three teams? Plus a whole bunch of BAs, a scrum master, POs, a product manager, and an executive over those. The benefit of this arrangement was that most people didn't have to work more than 2 hours a day :)

@stephenc9813 2 ай бұрын

Juat finished Inspired, by Marty. What a treat! Thanks again Lenny, keep the pace going! ❤

@InfectedTofu Ай бұрын

The problem of marty with POs stems from the same one he claims people have with PMs - he talked to bad POs who are really only backlog managers. A real PO is exactly what he claims a PM is - someone who is accountable for value and viability. For larger organizations I agree a team needs a PM as Marty describes, as the PO is much more akin to a CEO - prioritization on larger scale and strategic scope. But Scrum is defined for a one team (4-9 people). There, the PO and the PM is indeed typically one role, as you don't really need two people doing these activities full time in such a small scale. If you look at scaled scrum frameworks, they typically have a completely different definition of a PO - the scale changes the work. They will not assign a PO per team - then it's no longer Scrum. When you do that, you get the types of POs Marty is justifiably complaining about.

@ahmedodufuwa9792 2 ай бұрын

Great stuff here

@azharhabeebmohameds7920 20 күн бұрын

Is there a way to like this video multiple times 😊

@LennysPodcast 20 күн бұрын

🤣🧡

@ash1m 2 ай бұрын

Whats the car rental startup that Marty mentioned in the lightening round?

@CarlosPMartin_ 2 ай бұрын

What article is the one he mentions around minute 32 that made the rounds?

@user-rc7dc5ku5m 2 ай бұрын

Finally someone told the truth))

@annxiao7721 2 ай бұрын

I was laughing so hard. I love his strong language. Meanwhile I think it’s a losing battle. It’s human nature to be lazy to think and to criticize. Very few can do that.

@sagsur1933 2 ай бұрын

I've seen product managers at companies trying their level best to actually innovate and upper management freaknig out and steering them towards good becoming feature teams. During mass layoffs who do you think got fired? The product manager.

@akashhande 2 ай бұрын

I watched this and I am having an identity crisis. Someone please share one of those product theatrics podcasts that Marty talks about.

@anuragkale6269 Ай бұрын

What is that Data Management Systems book in Marty's bookshelf at 7:37? It s the leftmost book in the lower shelf. Google does't seem to bring up that book by title.

@LennysPodcast Ай бұрын

I just asked Mary about this, here's his answer 🤯 -- That is actually the very first book published on database management systems, and the author was none other than my father, Carl Cagan. Published in 1973 by John Wiley & Sons He was also the first Computer Science PhD in the US.

@anuragkale6269 Ай бұрын

Wow! Thanks for finding that out Lenny!

@prateekgour07 2 ай бұрын

Great podcast Lenny and Marty. One question that was not clear the ways to upskill PM. It was mentioned 90% of the online content is not right but then how to get that 10% and how to verify if it is right ???

@AnkitaShettyYT 2 ай бұрын

Read his books

@KaiMelo 2 ай бұрын

Why does he say that having a product manager and a product owner is an anti-pattern? Can anyone share resources on that?

@francismumbi49 2 ай бұрын

I use LaTex

@ot3991 2 ай бұрын

Who was the guest Lenny and Marty spoke about with respect to Product Ops? At 1:14:23

@LennysPodcast 2 ай бұрын

These two: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/b7yUnNt-nrG0fmg.html, kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qq2DYLGZ3diyj4U.html

@alexeyhimself 2 ай бұрын

A Rivian! And 2 BMW motorcycles! Wow! 😲 Tell me what your Product Leader drives and I'll tell you who you are! 😄👏

@ghogarth 2 ай бұрын

My version is "How do I know what I think until I see what I say?" 🙂

@DingoBingo4000 2 ай бұрын

#MartyGPT

@Tenelia 2 ай бұрын

Disparaging remote work at this time is akin to condemning the utility of the first automobiles because of cobblestone roads. I'll wait for the sociology research to catch up.

@franciscosanchez2585 2 ай бұрын

Does someone recognize the book that has build on the name?

@morphieus16 2 ай бұрын

Tony Fadell, Build

@morphieus16 2 ай бұрын

Tony Fadell, Build

@franciscosanchez2585 2 ай бұрын

Thank you

@Olexandr____ 22 күн бұрын

Great stressing air... For 40 minutes!!!! Nothing particular was shared yet

@mleanca Ай бұрын

Mark 32:00

@bdm233 2 ай бұрын

At 43:16 who is Christian that they both talk about?

@LennysPodcast 2 ай бұрын

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ib6JlpiD1LuXfJs.html

@randalx 2 ай бұрын

Are there any certifications that follow the Empowered Product Team model?

@kuntu1943 2 күн бұрын

This man is really frustrated by this issue. Lenny should sub name this episode LAMENTATIONS 😤😅

@I-sed-no 2 ай бұрын

Sounds like a commercial for his book

@lyasandrovych 2 ай бұрын

Agree. And not in a positive way but with over-salted criticism. I will listen for the second time to grasp the ideas better rather than the stile of spitting venom in the hope of winning customers and persuading.

@praveensg 2 ай бұрын

Sounds like you are just warming up to his concepts. Read the other two books. He talks about the same stuff. I love him for being factual.