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Thank you, Adam!

You're being generous. Thanks.

Nope, accurate... you're being modest!

A nice father-son activity. Keep him safe.

Great! Nice work.

Thanks Robert!

Thanks, Wilhey!

I'll hope the strainers stay out of your streams.

BBQ. Sorry, I thought I had responded, but it must have gotten lost. Yes, I love not having a stump left over to navigate the mower around. That particular location is now supporting a lovely crop of Day Lilies and one struggling young MacIntosh apple tree. Not a problem with the soil: my wife just doesn't want me cutting down other trees to let the apple tree get the amount of light it needs. (Poor little tree is probably asking if this is some kind of a cruel joke.)

Thanks. Just hoping I can help at least one person somewhere avoid injury or property damage.

Opinions vary. Thanks much for yours.

Thanks! Great to hear from a fellow engineer.

Thank you, Gordon!

Thanks Igo. That's my goal.

Thanks, but I don't have nearly the breadth of knowledge needed to be an arborist. Wish I did.

Will, Caught me. Yes. Practicing engineer. Hanging desperately on to 64, so I only have a few years of climbing ahead of me. With that many Live Oaks, I'm guessing you are probably someplace down south where you don't really need the firewood. If that is the case, that's a pity. Definitely a good idea to get the small ones out of the way first. Good luck with the big ones! Terry

I can just about picture that. I tend not to use wedges much, opting instead for some variety of pulling down. I have a back leaner I need to take down in the next few weeks and will try it with wedges-only, just to explore where the reasonable limit may be on their use.

Thanks Terry.

Thanks. That's very nice to share. I wish someone would make a nice series for new Groundies to view before they start working. I was tempted, but I don't think it's in me.

Thanks, Brian.

You're welcome John. (Nice picture.)

Your working for nothing

Thanks much, Drew.

If its like machining alot of people dont do the math and it bites them

Thanks Trix. When you consider all the ways that knot elements can be combined, there are literally thousands of knot assemblages that could be used. The results can be classified into two important categories: those that will hold and those that will not. Obviously, you want to avoid building an assemblage that turns out to be in the first category. Within the category of those that will hold, there are two somewhat important sub-categories: those that will be easy to untie when you're done and those that will be hard to untie. If you include a square knot or a granny knot early in the assembly and that part of the assembly will tighten up, either of those two elements may become hard to untie. Using several half hitches around the standing line can make just about any messy assemblage of knot elements below it into a secure system. The best knot assemblages will be reliable, simple, and easy to untie. Two of the classics meeting these criteria are the Timber Hitch and the Cow Hitch. Several good videos of each are posted I definitely prefer the latter. Arborpod and the Climbing Arborist have posted the following: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/aM-XoZCWrM22n4U.html kzfaq.info/get/bejne/mdyagbypqNOtops.html In each case, rather than having the hardware, imagine the hardware replaced by the standing line going up to the tree's crotch.

Thanks again! I wasn't sure if there was one single right knot for that specific job. It's good to know there are multiple knots to consider. Cheers!

Sorry, John. This is the first I've heard of it. If you feel like you can trust it for the claimed loads, then you can probably use it for loads under those limits. I assume those were working load limits. Not sure how the "tape" stands up to abrasion. You might need to keep an eye on potential deterioration due to UV, as well.

Thanks Terry for your quick reply! Muletape is very interesting stuff, seems like something you might be interested in playing with. It's polyester webbing, strong, light, low-stretch, and marked with a measurement at every foot. Its intended application is pulling heavy cable through conduit. It's made flat to reduce friction/cutting-in on interior conduit bends under heavy loads. And its cheap. You can get the 2500 lb. test in 500' to 5000' spools for about 6 cents a foot. Or any bucket truck you see will probably give you some. Most use it once and then discard it.

Thanks much, Kevin. It is very difficult to throw any heavy rope a significant distance up into a tree and over the desired branch or crotch. It is far easier to throw a light twine or string when it is pulled by a weight on the end. The string needs to be strong enough to pull the heavy rope all the way up over the branch and back down. The friction created when pulling the heavy rope over the branch can't be ignored. The string also needs to be pretty light and fairly thin. While you may have been able to give the weight a good velocity for its mission, the string will be resisting that with increasing effort as the weight flies higher and higher.. The resistance will increase as more weight of string is added and there is more air resistance. When I was a kid living in Korea, we actually had real parachute cord to use. I would say that that paracord was on the heavy and large side of what I would want to use as a throw line. Most hardware store should have spools of nylon or polyester string that would be both small enough and strong enough to make good throw lines.

@@terryhale9006 Thanks for clearing that up.

Thank you, William.

I can't claim any experience with the dynema for pulling. It seems like it would have some huge pluses over chain. The weight would be much preferred to lugging around the 100 pound buckets of chain I use for big jobs. One concern for me would be the longevity. With that pulling work, rope and especially chain tend to get dirty. That is not a problem for chain, but if sand and grit get into the fibers of rope, they may start cutting those fibers. One thing I like about chain is that you can choke it at any point you wish, so you can easily accommodate for varying distances between your anchor and your pulled object. It also make progress capture easier. My next winch may be a dynema, rather than a cable winch. I have had instances where the cable has pinched itself on the cable drum making it impossible to pull out by hand. Not sure if the dynema would do better or not.

All true. Do I hear your professional responsibilities speaking?

Terry Hale Yes Sir and that of a mariner. Semper Paratus

Thanks, SIG!

+hamstersniffer Don't let it out, but he's actually a civil engineer and computer programmer who always wanted to be a lumberjack.

+Terry Hale HA HA! Oh my gosh Terry, I can so totally believe that. I say that as a warehouse logistician and part time computer programmer, myself. Always working it out on the slide rule. (not really, I'm not quite that old but close). I don't know if you've ever cut a tree or not but you are truly awesome.

Kindred spirits. We have 72 acres. I've literally been taking down trees since I was 8. (56 years ago.)

Thanks Eric. I'm actually hoping to wrap it up tonight. If you haven't seen it, it sounds like you might want to watch my video on Stump Removal - Holistic Approach.

Steffen P Meyer waste of time, after 3 pulleys something will break. Either a rope, carabiner or pulley will fail, thats if the head of the tree doesnt snap out first. Just watch and learn more about what you’re doing before you hurt yourself or someone else.

Purely Retrievability. While you are unlikely to ever need to choose a different tie-in point, if your bowline is up around a branch 50 feet up, it's probably staying there until you get the tree down. Call it fear of commitment.

Effort aside, sounds like great results.

Rather than the video suggesting that you should trust a man pulling on a rope to handle a back leaner, I thought precisely the opposite was being conveyed: A stretchy, under-strength rope could be extremely dangerous. The video also references the Back Leaners video, which contains some fairly strong cautions about the risk of relying on someone trying to pull over a back leaner. Glad your pulley missed you.

TheDadPenfield I totally agree I witness somebody trying to yank a stump out of the ground with a truck. He didn't have it tied to the stump good using a gigantic D ring on the stumps end. When it slipped off the stump stretchy rope sprung back and put the D ring dead center of his license plate ripping it from the screws, through the bumper finally stopping wedged in between the bottom of the bed and his spare tire. Looking back in a situation his rigging was very questionable.

That is what equipment I have and was planning on using. I am glad to hear someone else has proven that it works. It just seemed a stronger and safer method.

So this exact method was my thought process too. I’m assuming that you’re running the second strap through the end loop of the first strap and sliding it all the way to the end so the two straps bind together, and more straps and so on and so forth? Or are you using clevices between the straps? I’m was thinking all sorts of ideas like 1/2” wire rope, but noticed that the WLL is less on that than say 4” polyester strap! The 4” polyester strap has a WLL of 5400lbs. I’m not sure that I trust the stated 9000lb WLL on those harbor freight 3” X 30’ polyester tow straps, but if its true, then that should be sufficiently adequate pulling capacity, especially if supplemented or double runs used? Maybe overkill, but I’m dealing with a very large 32” base 120’ tall dead ash tree which is close to my neighbors house. The plan was to use either large capacity come along, or a 10,000lb chain fall with 10’ working distance. I’m not sure how much “force” would be required to pull a large (non leaning) tree over, once notched. I guess I’ll go look for the authors other video, about using chain and etc… Lots of tree guys claiming they hook it up to a skidsteer or a truck with the bull rope and pull it where they want it to go. My anchor would be another dead ash tree (two) about 150’ away(both very stout). I was debating using a 300’ section of 4” polyester strap with a proper 4” strap ratchet (5600lb WLL), and pulling on that with the come along or chainfall. I really don’t know how much “force” is needed, but I can’t imagine it being in excess of 2000lbs! Very interesting points in the video on side pulls and the forces involved, snatch blocks etc. That’s another situation where I’d be going way in excess of limits. No way am I trusting a 650lb snatchblock at 600lb. To close to the limit for my personal comforts on that one… and I’m sure the example was to make a point only. Well done video, I learned a lot!

I like stretchy rope with adequate strength because it has dynamic loading as the tree starts to move. With stiff rope you lose pull as soon as the tree moves.

With experience, numbers merely confirm intuition.

Hi, Bear. The diameter makes a difference. There are several good arborist supply houses. Your loication might make a difference onh shipping. The three I uses most frequently are Tree Stuff.com, WesSpur, and SherrillTree. You can shop others, but you will probably find that good pulleys have steep prices. How you are going to use them makes a difference. The serious arborist pulleys must be significantly stouter than the weight of the top or log they are going to be used to lower. That is because the pulley has to catch the weight of the falling log and that impact produces a shock that can be over three times the static weight. www.treestuff.com/store/products.asp?category_id=235 www.sherrilltree.com/tree-rigging/rigging-devices-harware/isc-compact-rigging-pulley www.wesspur.com/pulleys/pulleys-blocks-main.htmlwww.wesspur.com/pulleys/pulleys-blocks-main.html

@@terryhale9006 Thank you. I found a good price at E-Rigging.com.

Thanks, The. Enjoy your new cleared areas!

I don't profess to being a connoisseur of ropes. When it's all said and done, it comes down to strength, stretch and diameter. At the extreme, UV resistance, heat resistance, rot resistance, and oil and chemical resistance can matter. as well.

thebertt Exactly.

Thanks, Joe.

At 8:06, the second pull is only sideways, so the second rope only needs to be around the first rope, not connected to it. If I understand your question, you are asking about the annoying case where all the throw of your winch has been used up, but you still need to pull farther. If you had anticipated this "revoltin development", you could have put a butterfly in your first rope before you started pulling. As you note, any knot can reduce the capacity of the rope by up to 50%. Fortunately, such losses are not cumulative, but represent a loss of strength at the point where the knot is. Since the ends of the rope are already tied with knots, the overall strength (weakest link) has already been compromised. If the need to reset the winch was not anticipated, it's too late to toss a butterfly into the line. Instead, some type of hitch would need to be tried. I have not been faced with this particular problem, but my first attempt would be to try a Blake's Hitch with several extra turns.

I see immediately that you've been in that situation also? That's exactly what I was asking. Just a loop around the first rope. As I look at the diagram again, I see that the second pull is actually about 90 degrees. It makes sense that the addition of a loop would not further weaken the rope (A chain is only as strong as...). Thank you

You have some nightmarish unknowns there. Probably the worst is the condition of the trunk. If the lean is over 20 degrees and the trunk is decayed, the tree could just be waiting for a good breeze. The difference between 20 and 30 degrees is huge. If the tree is leaning pretty much perpendicular towards the house, pulling perpendicular to the lean would be very bad. As soon as your pull began to break the hinge, the tree would not care what direction you were pulling and would fall on the house. If the lean is even getting close to 30 degrees, you should forget about using a bottle jack. In addition to the forces being possibly too large for the jack, the jack would put concentrated areas of pressure into what sounds like a suspect trunk. The wood could crush or split. I'm a bit surprised that you mention the possibility of climbing the tree yourself and bringing it down in pieces. That is probably not a good idea unless you are yourself a climbing arborist and have the right equipment and experience. Given the risks, I'd say you absolutely should hire a competent arborist to evaluate the tree and the best way to remove it. If the tree is in bad enough condition that they don't want to climb it, then they would need to bring in a crane. Normally, the need to use a crane would only increase the cost, so that is not something you could consider as a cost-saving option. You mentioned that you have a tow chain. I'm guessing it is not over 20 feet long. You would need more like 100 feet to be dealing with this tree. You mentioned having an 8000 lb winch. Do you have something to anchor that to (another big tree) in a good location? If you absolutely can not afford to hire professionals, there may be one possibility that you could consider. Since there are so many unknowns, I have no idea if this is possible. Additionally, I may have totally misunderstood the geometry. I assume you have a tree that has two main stems (trunks) and Stem A is leaning towards the house, while Stem B is nearly vertical. It might be possible to fasten a strong chain something like 30 feet up around Stem A and run that chain through a very reliable crotch around 35 feet up in Stem B and, from there, run the chain to anchor around the base of a good tree at least 60 feet farther away from the house. You could use your winch to take the slack out of the chain before choking the chain off, but you should not attempt to winch Stem A up. With this arrangement, the chain would be intended to prevent Stem A from falling towards your house. You might then be able to use a second chain or a very strong rope to pull Stem A perpendicular to it's lean and make appropriate cuts near the bottom of Stem A so that it would begin to move those few degrees away from the house that you mentioned you need before it would be safe to fall. Again, I have no idea if that would work and strongly advise you to bring in a pro.

Wow, I had no idea you would get back to me so fast! Thank you!!! I measured on some pictures and the Stem A lean does appear to be only 20º with another 10º lean in Stem B in the opposite direction. But neither tree is leaning towards my house, it's the house next door that's at risk. I'm the last house at the end of a dead end street and there's woods across the street and beyond the end so there's lots to anchor to. There's also a steep 10 foot drop between the tree and the street & a 3-4 foot drop next to the tree (in the direction of the fall) so I'm not sure exactly how that might affect root growth/stability. I do have 100' of steel cable from a zip-line but I think that's only rated for 3300#. The tow chain is 20' and the yellow strap is 30'. And the winch is 10' or 5' with the snatch block. And I have 100' of rope rated for like 500#. I've only been here for a year so I can't say how long this tree has been sick but I sprayed the ants and as far as I can tell it hasn't gotten any worse in that time. Plus I brought down a huge branch from the leaning side so that hopefully helped. I'm not even sure if this is one tree that has split or if it's two trees growing really close to each other although that seems unlikely. The two trunks together are 56" wide. However, I can see between the two trunks in spots. I think it may be an occlusion or whatever it's called that's pushing the two trees apart. And some of the branches seem perfectly healthy while others have no bark at all, have been eaten clean through and have actually fallen in a good breeze. So while I'm hopeful that the damage to the two trunks is limited, I don't want to just assume. I had actually considered doing what you suggest so that seems like a good idea. Are you sure it's best to cut the tree we've just secured with the chain at the bottom? Or should I use a ladder to climb above the chain at 30' and cut there? I could have a friend pulling on a rope that's even higher up in the tree. And should I use a hinge cut, possibly on an angle to ensure the tree falls away from the houses. Or maybe a plunge cut to a tongue and groove? I could lash the ladder to the tree so it won't fall. And strap myself to the tree as well. There's also no power lines anywhere in the area. I'd rent a 50' bucket from Home Depot if it weren't for all the sloping terrain. Anyway, thanks for all your help! And don't worry, I promise to be super-careful!

H, I really don't have enough information to make a good guess. As general rules, (1) the smaller the portion of the tree you are dropping at any given time, the less weight it has and the less damage it can do and (2) the closer to the trunk it will fall. However, standing on a ladder when the fall occurs makes you+ladder a much bigger target, with the base of the ladder down near where it is likely to get hit. It would actually be safer to be supported IN the tree with a buddy removing the ladder and replacing it after the cuts are done. Definitely do NOT use a tongue and grove.

Thanks Ob. That's a real veteran Power Wagon.

heh-heh-heh... he said "snatch" ...

Kirby, What's the point of braiding three ropes together if you still have to use three winches? The hard work is still in cranking the winches. Can't argue with your success, however. Rigging the rope up into the tree, fastening to three other trees, and cranking down a hundred-foot tree every 22 minutes for 7 hours is incredible!

Kevin, You are correct that 45 degrees would be optimal. However, There will not be that much improvement between 30 and 45 degrees. The force needed to pull down a large tree is dependent on the tree and whatever you have done to cripple it, either by cutting its roots or sawing through the trunk. With one of my cable winches, I probably exert around 2500 pounds, which is going over its rated capacity. On two occasions, I insufficiently weakened the roots of a tree and my pull caused the trunk to crack. One was a big white pine, the other a medium sized red maple. Fortunately, I was checking progress and saw the cracks developing, so I didn't pull them down on myself with a catastrophic snap. On another occasion, I was trying to extract a large basswood and maxed out the tension in both winches, so I had to cut more roots. If you are cutting the tree down, it should take a lot less force, basically the force needed to pull it past vertical and the force needed to snap the hinge you've left. The required force should not be under-estimated for any sizable back leaner. It takes a bit of judgment to look at a tree from the side and decide which direction it is leaning. If you are cutting down a tree and having trouble getting it to pull over, you should NOT cut the hinge narrower. That is a common mistake that can be disastrous if the tree is not leaning precisely in the direction you want it to fall. Once you've crippled the hinge, the tree will take your direction of pull as no more than a suggestion.

@@terryhale9006 I can't tell how pleased I am to get a response You have been a bit of an inspiration for me for some time. Thank you so much. The best part about your response was the mention of cutting roots! This is because about a year ago I was out in the woods and was experiencing that all too familiar thought while making a back cut, that goes something like this "Hmm... This feels too dangerous, am I about to become a Darwin award winner?" followed by "Maybe I should I call OSHA and have them send out a film crew to document a great 'How NOT to' video" In that moment it occurred to me that there is no reason to be so close to death. There must be safer ways to fell trees. Esp since as a homeowner I am in no rush, I enjoy the mental workout of problem solving, the physical work out of manual labor, and there is no commercial interest. Suddenly the dozens and dozens of videos I had watched about felling trees and chainsaw technique (that largely presume speed or commercial interests are the priorities) all became largely obsolete. I wanted to find the safer ways. I thought of five things and one of them came after seeing a few wind felled trees. I noticed that the root systems spread out over the surface like an umbrella, all easily accessible form the surface.. and I thot. “AHA..maybe the best of the risk free ways to bring down a tree is from a distance where no harm can befall you is to cut the roots and pull it over”. My thinking is that much of the strength of the root system in comes from the dirt and the interplay with other roots (aka form of the root system), therefore roots can support the tree with much less mass than the trunk. Then I realized that the roots are really doing essentially nothing to support the downward force of the tree which is done by the ground, the roots are mostly giving lateral support which also requires much less mass (akin to guy wires on a tower - why cut the through the entire base of the tower when all you need to do is cut a few guy wires). IOW root cutting and pulling seems superior to me cuz 1) Much less cutting (aka easier) my wild guess is 25% -33% of the wood in the trunk cab be cut to pull down the tree. 2) More relaxing and less maintenance and headaches that come form running a chainsaw 3) More importantly, is the safety derived from not being so close to the tree when cutting, and the safety derived from the decreased rate of fall (at least initially). I have tried this on some tiny trees (1 in diameter) and some very small trees (3-4' diameter) and it was ridiculously easy and in fact required no saw, just a few strokes with a mattock. And was planning to start on larger trees, so to see you have done it on a huge tree means I am not crazy, and it works! Again I can’t tell you how enthused and thankful I am! Until your comment about cutting the roots, never really stuck with me that when pulling the tree over with chains there was no notch cuz in the earlier videos in the series you were talking about pulling done trees with notches, and I just assumed there was a notch we couldn't see in the video. Thanks again! Oh and any thoughts about how high up to attach ropes/ chain.. how important is height to enable us to get adequate foot lbs, or can we just attach it at arms length (8 ft or so for me) since we are using a winch and not relying on a truck or a couple of burly guys The idea of big forces makes me nervous so I would think replacing force with height is very important, but if additional height doesn't materially lower the forces we must impart it would be a waste to try to get the additional height.

Thanks TreeBoi. Love your videos. Part of the inspiration to get this old man up INTO the trees.

If more than a tipping force is needed, I use chains almost exclusively.

@@terryhale9006 Out of curiosity… Why chains vs say the previously mentioned 3”X30’ polyester 9000lb WLL straps? And do you use a come along or a chain fall or motorized puller?

@@georgebland9931 At this point, it's really a matter of going with what I am comfortable with. I simply don't have experience with straps. Beyond that, I have two concerns that are probably unfounded. First, steel has very little elasticity and when it fails, (three times before I went to heavy gauges), it basically just drops to the ground. I would expect straps to behave much like rope and potentially snap back quite dangerously. Of course, if you buy a strong enough strap, you will be unlikely to be able to generate the forces to snap it. Second, you can get chain dirty and it is not a big deal. However, straps or ropes can get sand into the weave which will gradually wear/cut the fibers. Though not a concern, I like the way you can use a grab hook to fasten two chains together at any point along their length. I don't feel good about trying to clamp onto the midpoint of a strap.

+jonesy369 Thanks Jonesy. I'll give that some consideration. There are only a few knots that can't be trusted. Of those that can be, there are some that will bind up really tight and become very hard to undo. The good knots (those that are reliable AND easy to undo afterwards) are already well covered in quite a few videos. For anchorage, the Cow Hitch and the Clove Hitch, each with a couple of Half Hitches for backup, are my favorites. The Bowline, to hold the pulley, is another favorite.

+Terry Hale midline knots like the alpine butterfly or triple bowline are good to learn to. Also, probably worth mentioning, most of those cheaper pulleys you can buy for $15 or whatever are not meant to be anchored by rope. They often require an intermediary accessory between the rope and the pulley such as a clevis or carabiner because the bend radius is too tight on the pulley anchor point and may actually cut the rope

D. Ryan Shaw Correct. (I was going to mention that, but it was already becoming a bit of a dissertation.)

Fair enough

There's a lot to be said for good common sense and some experience.

Thats pretty fuckin interesting. It makes all the sense in the world. Yet simple and effective

@@northsneads3662 yes and you can control the release if you wanted to lower a heavy load.

@@lewy1 hot damn. Twould be a fool not to do this.

Beats having to mobilize a huge bulldozer to deal with the big stumps.

Ray, Sorry, but I'd need more information to offer a worthwhile suggestion. All I can offer is that the ideal pull direction will always be in the direction you want the object to move. that means that , if you want your mast to be lifted up, the rope and pulley should be above the mast. It would probably be desirable to lift to an intermediate angle, block it in place, the reset your rigging before the final lift.

@@terryhale9006 i hear ya.. i did think of the blocking but without trucks and stuff, not sure how i would accommodate that - i live alone in the middle of nowhere pretty much - just getting things here is stupidly expensive if it's even possible. just as a illustration, the mast is connected at the bottom on a pivot, 40 ft long in 10ft sections. currently it's bolted together and supported at multiple points so it doesn't sag over the winter - the base and up to the second section is relatively level then it slopes away. i'll have to use my tractor to lift the end up to get the wind turbine on, so would imagine it will start out at maybe 10d from horizontal. so you're saying the best would be if my lift point was 32' from the bottom (the second guy wire ring on the mast), then the anchor point should be 32' up the tree? (ish?) . using your tree pulling illustration, it's basically the rigging backwards and the tree pulling up the 'ground'.

Presumably, if you are using rope, you are actively pulling on the rope when the tree starts to move. If you continue to actively pull until the tree is committed to its direction of fall, no slack should develop. It is true that you can't get a manual winch to pull fast enough, but I would recommend against using a winch with rope. Not impossible, but it has to be a very strong rope to handle the pulls that a winch can generate.

I never 'pull' a tree. Trees will always win in any tug of war. About 1973 I was witness to someone using a Chevy to belay a fall. A presumably static rope was routed up and over the crotch of a tree to retain the fall long enough to steer it aside. The car ended up in the crotch of the tree, 10 plus feet off the ground. It was not even a whole tree,, just a major limb on a large front yard maple. There is no vehicle that can certainly guide a tree down short of a 75 ton Sherman tank. That 2 ton Chevy was tossed like a child's toy and looked like a crumpled tin whistle a second later. I never hand pull a tree either,, the puller, the man or woman who may be pulling is between a one ton (a small tree) and 100 tons directly at their person. Nope. Also, you cannot force a tree to do what you want. You can advise it, spin it,, play all kinds of tricks,,, but it is ALWAYS the tree that will decide. If the tree is a full leaner over the house,, you get a crane, a bucket, you climb,,, but you dismantle one bit at a time. For even a minor leaner,,, I can 'talk' the tree into maybe 90 degrees left or right. I HAVE spun, rotated trees nearly 180 degrees,,,, but that is not something that you can do even 50% of the time If a tree needs a helping hand to head in a safe direction, I get a line as high as is practical,, to the bole if a straight pull. Possibly to an off set branch if I am to spin the tree to guide it in. I use a large nylon,, my smallish ropes are 5/8" and I prefer braided to twist. (Twisted fiber ropes can get very 'squirrelly' under tension.). I tension the rope with block and tackle, or a come-a-long, or a three part trucker's hitch,,,, or some combination. The goal IS to stretch the rope, so that the pull continues for a long time after the tree has begun its descent. A static rope will only keep pulling for a very short time/distance. A static rope may only have a stretch % of 3 or 4 but a good nylon,, marine grade anchor rode, in the extreme, can stretch up to 40% before it is permanently damaged. I WANT a rubber band that keeps pulling. I agree with your cautions,,, I NEVER get in line with the rope under tension. 150 feet of nylon under 750 or 1000 pounds of pull will seriously injure. You do not touch it, you do not 'help' it in the middle. Good way to lose fingers. My belay rope,,, is a static line,,, nylon is useless as a belay line. Belays are set nominally 90 degrees to the desired fall. They can be set more than 90,,, maybe 10 or 20 degrees,, to swing the fall... or less than 90 to only come into play as a safety. I have worked within the last 12 months with extreme static lines, UHMWPE, 7 to 10 times stronger than steel and with less stretch than solid stainless rigging rod. Trees make you humble. The moment you think you have it figured out,,, "Its gonna fall right there. " You'll cut into it and find it hollow and headed straight for your truck,,, or you will 'know' it is going that way,, and it falls exactly the opposite direction. And the tree guys that I know , the old guys like me, they have all had the same humbling experiences. Young guys, women,, have loads of confidence,,,, but do it for 40 years,,, and that confidence is replaced with,, I 'think' it is going that way. The only one within the circle of fall is the cutter,, there are no trucks, cars, people, children,,, move the swing set and the doghouse. Cut the 200 trees for the Boy Scouts the week before they arrive at camp. Clear line to run, the the first moment it starts to move,,, you run. The rest don't get to be old.

In one of my other videos, kzfaq.info/get/bejne/iKloY7Scy67GhKM.html , I've included content that I hope will warn homeowners not to be overconfident about the ability of their vehicle to exert an adequate force.

Oh,, complete agreement. Vehicles, even large powerful trucks, are not powerful enough and the timing is never perfect And IF you have tied the tree rope high,, that gives maximum angle of force,,, the same force is lifting the rear wheels off the ground. Its a no win. I have seen one do it well. They did not do a direct pull. The pull rope was routed to a snatch block at the base of tree in line with the proposed fall. The vehicle was able to exert a level pull and at a safe angle to the fall line. Even at that,,, if the tree wants to go some other direction,,, the tree win win every time.

A tiny point on my recommendation: Get the rope through the crotch first, Then tie around the base. The way you are doing it is fine 99% of the time. There will only be a problem if you ever decide you want to get your rope back down before the tree comes down. This could happen if you decide the crotch just isn't right. It could happen if your work gets interrupted by a hail storm. It could happen if you get an urgent call to go somewhere. In each case, you will be unable to retrieve your rope and you will have to use another rope in the first case and hope no one steals or vandalizes it in the second and third. If tied around the base, retrieval is quick and easy. Again, it will rarely matter, but it is pretty annoying when it does.

@@terryhale9006 Thank you very much for that. Doing it the way I've been doing it I've always been very aware of that I was putting a rope up in a tree that I couldn't practically get back down without cutting the tree down, but I have yet to ever encounter one of those 1% situations where that's been a problem. I just wasn't sure if there was another reason I was missing. Thanks!

please show your work

Thanks, Dave.

John, I'll confess I had to do some digging for this one. First, the sort of good news. For a 3/8 inch steel cable, your actual new break strength should be something like 12,000 to 15,000 lbs, depending on the steel used. In theory, you shouldn't be able to break it with a 9,000 lb winch. HOWEVER, as that cable begins to wear, its strength will drop, so, sooner or later, you will be able to break it with your winch. In researching the matter, the best professional advice seemed to be that the strain at failure (how much it stretched per length before breaking) should be determined by actual tensile tests to failure, rather than by calculations. Never-the-less: For 3/8” cable, presumably 1x19 construction (19 wires, wound in one bundle. Modulus of elasticity, E ~ 15,600,000 psi. Actual steel cross-sectional area, A ~ 0.8 πDD/4 = 0.088 sq.in. Length = 100 ft. Maximum load at failure, W = 12,200 lbs Strain ~ (W x L)/(E x A) Strain at failure = 12,200 lbs x 1200 inches / 15,600,00 psi x .088 sq.in. = 10.7 in Weight of 3/8 cable = .25 lb/ft x 100ft = 25 lb Mass = 25/32.2 = .78 slugs Peak Acceleration, a = F/m = 12,200/.78 = 15,714 ft/(sec x sec) However, this acceleration only acts over the equivalent of 5 inches (V x V) = 2ad = 2 x 15,714 x ½ x 10.7/12 = 14,011 (ft/sec)(ft/sec) V= 118 ft/sec = 80 mph Now, 80 mph is definitely a concern. However, there are a couple of mitigating factor. First, not all of the cable is accelerated to that speed; only the far end at the break. Second, when cable fails, much of that failure goes into unwinding the strands. Typically, something like 15% of the strands do not break immediately, as the unwinding frees up some of their length. In those first few milliseconds, the broken strands contract, but are largely restrained from flying great distances, as they are still wrapped around the strands that have not yet broken. Of course, in most situations, there is still a load on the cable and once that load has taken up the momentary slack in the unbroken strands, the load will snap those strands, as well. This time, however, those few strands can't support nearly the load, so they break before building up the huge tension that could cause the big acceleration. Depending on how many pulleys were used as force multipliers, the load on the broken cable could pull it faster and faster as the load fell. The speed of the cable for that circumstance would be unrelated to the energy released by the snapping.

I'll hope as well. It is tough to guess how much pull is needed. I'll hope nothing important is at risk if 3000 pounds turns out to not be enough.

If your rope is long enough, it doesn't have to be tied up in the tree. As long as you can get the rope over a high branch, the end that went over the branch can be tied around the base of the tree. There are several ways of getting the rope over a branch, but the best involve a weight on the end of a long string. When the weight comes down, take the weight off, tie your rope on and pull the rope up over the branch.

Ok now I see...didn’t notice the graphic at 13:02 shows that. Your videos are excellent and I appreciate the engineering approach to explaining solutions.