PVK to John Vervaeke "God is Ancient the Solution to the Frame Problem"

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4 жыл бұрын

I've spent nearly 2 years now working through the work of Jordan Peterson and John Vervaeke. Part of what their work has in common is called the frame problem. Human beings can't see and interact with the world without a frame but the framing of the world through something in the world is roughly equivalent to what Christianity calls idolatry. Christianity I believe asserts that God is the only frame that finally works in a world that is combinatorially explosive. I think this insight helps to explain a number of assertions in the Bible and Christian theology including the fact that God is everywhere, and in another sense nowhere, that God is not an object in the world, and that you can't see God and live.
Conversation with Christopher Mastropietro • Christopher Mastropiet...
Conversation with Guy Sengstock • Transformational Liste...
JBP and Vervaeke Feb 2015 • Jordan Peterson & John... (the Frame problem and meaning)
Notes
Is Relevance Realization God?
How to explain the emergence of mind?
Homunculus fallacy
How does intelligent emerge out of processes?
No essences to fittedness
Replace a Newtonian way of thinking with a Darwinian way of thinking
Sacredness and the Sacred
There is no essence to relevance
The inexhaustible moreness of reality
Jonathan Pageau
John Hicks
William James
Idolatry
Machinery
God is the ancient answer to the framing problem
The worst things come from the best things turned bad
Pluralism
Bret Weinstein
Creating god in the internet Age
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Пікірлер: 125

@MortenBendiksen 4 жыл бұрын

It was really interesting to hear you touch on idolatry in this conversation. It was your old Bible videos touching on idolatry that really appealed to me as an atheist. I realize now that through my life I have been worshiping idol after idol while wreaking all kinds of havoc on the world around me. You'd think atheism was the ultimate form of staying away from idolatry, but obviously not in my case. What really caught me in the Christian web, was that this anti-idol God seems to have talked to a group of people, telling them that they would bring that 'light' to all nations, and then a few thousand years later it seems to have happened through the person called Jesus. I don't understand much else of what's going on, but that is enough for me. It saved me from myself. I don't feel magically different or better, simply more reality oriented, and a tiny bit more likely to listen to what other people are trying to say. Thank you for all these videos Paul!

@MrHwaynefair 4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing this, Morten! I'm thankful that you have the courage to embrace the surprising, life-altering Truth - that Truth that is a person - the person, Jesus Christ!

@JeffCaplan313 3 жыл бұрын

"I don't feel magically different or better, simply more reality oriented, and a tiny bit more likely to listen to what other people are trying to say." I think this is the point of ALL religions/spirituality. 😉

@marykochan8962 4 жыл бұрын

Now this is a fruitful conversation. It has really moved the material forward. What a privilege to listen to you two working together to process these difficult topics in such a loving manner!

@janelvee1713 4 жыл бұрын

A noble project, John, building that bridge. And I understand it much better when you speak with Paul who is also a bridge, a connection. Enormous gratitude for both of you.

@andrewrenwick9252 4 жыл бұрын

Here, here! 🍻 Well said!

@phrankenstein-wrongthinker1994 4 жыл бұрын

It is truly an honor to watch great conversations like these.

@j.p.marceau5146 4 жыл бұрын

Very interesting and insightful proposal Paul! These conversations are so fruitful, what a time to be alive! Thanks a lot Paul and John

@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын

And George and Ringo!

@michael2l 4 жыл бұрын

Vixen dixon haha 😂 also makes me think the two major pillars of the NT Corpus are the Pauline and Johannine texts.

@luistoomuchstudiesthebible7891 4 жыл бұрын

You know a video is good when after nearly two hours, your reaction to the two speakers saying their goodbyes is, “What?? That’s it??” Also, Paul, I wanted to pay you a specific compliment (and one to John for translating it into more psychological verbiage) for your insight into the relegation of God to the tabernacle and how in a sense that is us trying to contain Him (and also, Him allowing us to contain Him), but, with the provision that He can, at any point, break out, because it is His nature. Having grown up in a materialist culture, I sometimes want to rob God of His ability to be beyond and am tempted to demand He show Himself. It’s a nice reminder that I don’t know what I’m wishing for and that my place before Him should be one of humility and willingness to allow Him to reveal Himself when and how He wishes.

@rosafalls8068 4 жыл бұрын

I really appreciate these conversations and how you, Vervaeke, and others are working through things, allowing us to take part, listen, and learn. It helps people like me to listen to others who can put words to things that I can't, and am not skilled enough to; yet, often thinking and wondering about. It's just real nice and almost a relief to listen to these conversations and ideas out loud that people such as you and Vervaeke put out in public, as if it gives voice to so much more.

@newkingjames1757 4 жыл бұрын

Couldn't click a video quicker.

@arulross70 4 жыл бұрын

You were"too accomodating" at points of this convo , case in point at around the 1:36:00 , vervaeke is not summing up/representing your notion accurately yet you say "yes". He merely grazes your point , and honestly that happens a few times throughout the convo. With respect to this particular notion, he didn't at all address the great schism in Bret's mechanistic darwinian assertions and his implicit (seemingly unconscious) belief in our agency to break free from it.

@richardmbakeretc 4 жыл бұрын

I loved the rephrasing of the David Hume quote: the worst things come from the best things turned bad The original quote: The corruption of the best things gives rise to the worst.

@alisaruddell3484 4 жыл бұрын

“You don’t have to be religious to be idolatrous... anything in which you’re ossifying the relevance realization machinery because of an ideology, because of your narcissism... there’s all kinds of reasons in which you’re freezing your framing and insisting that everything and everybody live within that frame. I now see why idolatry is such a pernicious sin.” (-Vervaeke) This reveals how important it is to distinguish the Center of the faith from the Periphery (or, what’s at the top of the hierarchy versus what’s lower down). I think some Christians “ossify” peripheral aspects of the faith and mistakenly think they’re upholding orthodoxy... when it’s actually a form of freeze-frame idolatry, stuck-ness that can’t see relevance anymore, only threat. I love John’s language to describe this problem.

@anselman3156 4 жыл бұрын

Do you have examples of "peripheral aspects of the faith"?

@mattspintosmith5285 4 жыл бұрын

Overall, Vervaeke is very respectful of religion in this conversation but you've managed to pick out a quote where he links religion to "ideology" and "insisting" and "idolatry", Alisa. We can certainly make an idoloatryout of a system. But don't we rather fool ourselves by imagining that by being non-religious that we have escaped the frames? Religion can be an alternative to the most pernicious ideology in the West - consumerism. I see no reason why being religious automatically means that the frame is frozen. "The Lord hath yet more light and truth to break forth from his word". (from the heterodox pastor)

@alisaruddell3484 4 жыл бұрын

Matt Spinto Smith great point, and I agree with you. I think the hope is that one could be religious, could be a Christian (and therefore have a frame, as we all must) but a frame that is still flexible and humble... a frame that can adjust to new situations, which is another way of saying “incarnational.” John Vervaeke is very respectful of other religions, and his critique of idolatry was a “wound from a friend” which can be trusted, not an attack on Christianity.

@alisaruddell3484 4 жыл бұрын

anselman I think it might be easier to locate the center than the periphery... it’s a safe bet (?) to begin with the Apostolic and Nicene Creeds, or ones that Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants can agree on. The more specific we get from there, the more the faith is being incarnated in a particular culture (and the frame is changing based on the uniqueness of the people). Andrew Walls’ book “The Missionary Movement in Christian History” is an excellent resource for this topic, as it shows the immense variety and peculiarities of Christianity over the centuries and continents, while the core remains the same.

@verntweld51 4 жыл бұрын

Alisa Ruddell it was the confusion of the periphery that brought me to the stability of Orthodoxy which I have found to be the center, the cement being the control of the passions, which includes control of greed (which is idolatry).

@leedufour 4 жыл бұрын

Thanks John and Paul.

@michael2l 4 жыл бұрын

Great conversation again! I do hope when John and Paul have their next conversation they get a chance to dive into Barfield’s thoughts on idolatry. Saving the Appearances is subtitled A Study in Idolatry and has a lot to say about what idolatry means in the modern frame, and how if we don’t arrest the idolatry it will arrest our ability to do science and end our capability to communicate intelligibly with each other.

@ctucker1129 4 жыл бұрын

At 59:00 Paul you mention how God is the only proper and safe frame. I want to add that those idolatrous frames are constructive as long as they are within that larger frame of the transcendent good (God) which I know you agree with however something needs to be emphasized... It’s not enough to tell ourselves that since we believe in God (propositionally), then our idolatrous frames are properly situated within the one proper frame. It requires repeated psychological moves to check in with the one proper frame as we are operating within other frames. We have to constantly keep the relationship and connection through the bouncing back and forth of our conscious awareness. That constant tuning in takes effort. It’s the requirement of faith. Further, we have to be on guard against turning the God frame into an idol frame. It’s difficult to manage but the alternative is that the idolatrous frames will disconnect from the one proper frame and we will get stuck in a meaning crisis or at least a meaning stagnation.

@kennyblobbin 4 жыл бұрын

Thankyou both! Keep listening to your gut and having compassion and loving the child within you. It seems that your hearts are so soft. Much love and encouragement!

@icutmycat6049 4 жыл бұрын

Now we do this every month 👏👏👍 Thank you guys 👍👍

@michaelparsons3007 4 жыл бұрын

Being complimented is awkward for Paul. Lol

@KillerKabel 4 жыл бұрын

.. Thank you. HahA~

@ezpz489 4 жыл бұрын

Fantastic conversation, Thanks Pastor Paul & Dr. John

@karlasears9985 4 жыл бұрын

So good once again I just love when he is on. Great job you two. One thing which keeps coming to me when regarding the meaning crisis ( I am a home educator for my boys) Is are whole education system starting from kinder thru 12th grade. I have a lot of thoughts regarding this, questions I have, and have askef myself. Our educational system is a huge part of this starting at the grammar stage through the Rhetoric years!

@annmacarthur7717 4 жыл бұрын

Definitely. Our education system is not helping boys to become men. There are many issues in that system that need fixing.

@MrBenbenbenbenny 4 жыл бұрын

Wow! Just absolutely profound stuff. This is soooo helpful for framing my own limited understanding of how I see the world and it helps me understand others. Thank you for this fantastic conversation!

@arulross70 4 жыл бұрын

the frame problem is also deeeply linked with pragmatism, which is touted as a solution for the frame problem. This is not the case, as pragmatism itself posits an ontology where getting closer to truth is equated with being better and that we could actually know if we are getting closer through some secular means. There is no secular justification for this axiom. Now , if we have the personal God we can adopt pragmatism through trust and Submission (both terms in their technical sense) as we trust that our actions are ultimately not beyond the scope of providence regardless of how misguided. Also that there are real metaphysical "checkpoints" , "save states" where if we get sufficiently close we actually do get better as opposed to an ontology where even failure by a pico-atom is absolute failure.

@jasonaus3551 4 жыл бұрын

What do you mean by "the Person of God?

@arulross70 4 жыл бұрын

@@jasonaus3551 typo ..personal

@WhiteStoneName 4 жыл бұрын

You guys need Rupert Sheldrake in this conversation. He’s been talking about all this stuff for decades. He’s a scientist, PhD in biochemistry. He was also a Frank Knox Fellow in the philosophy and history of Science at Harvard. He knows his stuff. Morphic Resonance! Morphic Fields.

@j.p.marceau5146 4 жыл бұрын

Yes... let the panpsychism flow through you... xD

@nicolaslg1421 4 жыл бұрын

What should we read/listen to from him?

@dandiacal 4 жыл бұрын

@@nicolaslg1421 The Presence Of The Past is a classic.

@blooobish 4 жыл бұрын

great conversation. we had a couple days maybe about a week ago in the discord chat where we were cycling thru the frame problem and how it relates to god - and specifically in relation to the command against idolatry, and how impossible in a sense it is to not form idols (which also branched into an interesting discussion on the difference between idolatry and iconography). it seems like the imago dei would be an interesting point in this discussion, and one that we played around with when trying to talk about it. it seems like whats floating around in this discussion is god as the symbolic ultimate frame - tho its perhaps in this experience of the imago dei that this 'symbolic god' breaks thru into 'novel contact/experience' (also interesting bit in that we might consider the imago dei as 'man as the idol of god', rather than the 'god as the idol of man' - which seems to point to a 'direction of relationship' that is perhaps found in the command against idolatry). really enjoyed this convo, will have to watch another time or two to make sure i picked it up, as i'm still fuzzy on certain parts lol.

@theseersucker5077 4 жыл бұрын

first again! Woop woop! PVK and JV

@IkeOg 4 жыл бұрын

Wow... you did it again!!!! you're the PVK and JV CHAMP!!!

@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын

theseersucker At first I was 😡 Kept thinking I could never get back on top Then I learned how to get alone So you are back I will not crumble I will survive, hey, hey Well done Gary. It definitely wouldn’t be fun if we didn’t switch places constantly!

@ericlefevre7741 4 жыл бұрын

I normally watch my youtube videos at 1.5 speed. This conversation was so high level, I had to slow it down.

@camwg 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you

@Ritastresswood 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you both for such good conversation. I am just wondering whether anyone can enlighten me what ground ‘pluralism’ supposed to stand on? What is or what constitutes the notion of ’universality’ that John said had underpinned ‘pluralism“?

@elektrotehnik94 Жыл бұрын

It stands on the “I don’t know (what to do)” ground 👍 Which is not how we act/ live life (obviously), but it’s a state of mind that happens to us at times, none the less…

@raqko 4 жыл бұрын

Great stuff. When are you guys going to discuss soteriology and eschatology?

@marklefebvre5758 4 жыл бұрын

Any chance there is a summary of your (perhaps two or more) main points which made John think a bit more? Great video, overall, just that I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around your proofs for God being a solution to the frame problem....

@NikPapageorgiou 4 жыл бұрын

I really didn't get that whole "presence in absence and absence in presence". Can anyone explain it in common mortal terms?

@brentonbrenton9964 4 жыл бұрын

I think this is easily top 5, maybe even top 1 youtube video I've ever watched. So many insights. Someday you will both look back on this video as the moment you began to understand nonduality. You ARE that - a continual RR machine - God incarnate... God in an ever deepening understanding of itself... and you participate in that. Let me try to explain omnipresence. "God is omnipresent" is a true statement. You are present some places. Your presence (wherever it is) is experienced through consciousness. You are not aware of your presence anywhere except through 'experience' (is there a homunculus in your head?). In order for God to be truly omnipresent, he must have the same awareness as you - the same experience in order to have the same 'presence'. Otherwise he cannot truly be there as omnipresence (or truly know you as omniscient). God therefore is that which experiences all experiences. This is the nondual understanding: God is the consciousness seeing through all eyes, experiencing everything all the time. That is what is meant when we say "I see the spark of the divine in you"... God shines through and experiences all creation all the time - from the tiniest microbe to the human to whatever else is out there that experiences. God is not ONLY that (also the un-experienced) - but the only interpretation of the word 'omnipresent' leads directly to a nondual God. The devil is ubiquitous because it is your ego - always there wanting you to identify with it, screaming about self preservation and how the world is out to get you - distracting you from experiencing your true nature - divine oneness. The ego can and will die, either in life or after. This is why the devil is weaker than God, because the ego is a tool God made and serves his purposes... not the totality of undivided divinity. "You can't see God" - Nope: the eye cannot see itself. Consciousness perceives all, but cannot perceive itself. "If I see God, I will die" - Yep: the ego - the persona "I", the belief in Paul Vanderklay or John Vervaeke must die for you to realize that consciousness is prior to ego. The idolatry problem: because God is consciousness itself, worshiping something that consciousness experiences is backwards. Worship the One who experiences, not the thing experienced. "If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him" - You must - becoming enlightened is recognizing the unity of everything - the persona of the Buddha is an illusion - just like the persona of Paul and John. When Paul and John die, Buddha dies with them. It is the persona that is a Christian or a Jew or an Athiest.

@michaljosealtadelescubaies4118 4 жыл бұрын

Hi Paul, why do I instinctively find that in order to connect these two points we need to understand Mary the mother of God?

@crunch8484 4 жыл бұрын

In Jewish / Kaballistic interpretations of the Torah, travelling from place to place represents change or advancement to different spiritual states. The term "generations" also represents the evolution of spiritual state, and mothers are also the physical, biological connection from a father to his offspring. The feminine archetype is about nurturing the next generations, as well as inspiring men to change and improve, thus the feminine forms the connection between the current and future state ( place, point etc ). Mary, as the archetype mother and channel of connection between God and the world, represents that connection. Well thats one theory anyway!

@janelvee1713 4 жыл бұрын

"God is a symbol that puts the spirituality by which we experience sacredness into this ongoing, evolving disclosure of the inexhaustible more-ness of Reality." Beautiful.

@alisaruddell3484 4 жыл бұрын

Jan Elvee I loved that part too, especially “inexhaustible more-ness.” I’m going to keep that jewel of a phrase.

@KRGruner 4 жыл бұрын

Now, this makes PERFECT sense within the God 1 worldview. Still trying to figure out where God 2 fits in, though. Every time someone in the conversation mentions "God" I am wondering whether they include God 2 or not. In fact it seems to me that God 2 lends Himself, potentially, to idolatry. God 1 suffers no such liability, as far as I can see. Anyway, I suppose this will keep me thinking for a while. Excellent conversation, yet again.

@johncart07 4 жыл бұрын

The hardware will never explain the software.

@arulross70 4 жыл бұрын

A way in which this duality of mind and matter ,spirit and materially can be addressed within the Christian frame ( with Christian language) : Yes spirit precedes matter and it's the heart that counts but in this temporal realm the certain actions, configurations of material have spiritual ramifications ..i.e murder is still bad when it is accidental and rightly so . The question that should be asked is what to the specifics of these spirit -matter connections and materiality itself reveal about God's nature.

@GrimGriz 4 жыл бұрын

End clip at 57:33 - determine start clip by relevance to end clip

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

59:30 . . .what [incarnated] "word" is at the top of our hierarchy ?

@timothydeneffe249 2 жыл бұрын

Paul Vanderclay, i hope you see this: Don't know how Vervaeke will achieve the needed scalability he wants without the narratives we have been gifted that developed and got tuned over 1000s of years. Maybe someone will eventually be able to come up with a scalable model, but for now i cant fathom how we can both work on it and use it. Maybe we can clean up the failures of the current ones (namely the christian one) and use it while we keep working on getting the Christian tendency to stagnate in it's own frame, to self transcend it's weakness. I honestly don't know yet, I'm on the fence. It seems the christian narrative/model and it's historical factors might not be replicated for a long while. Thoughts anybody? It's somehow related to the recent conversation with JP Marceau and Vervaeke on the need for cosmic teleology or not in RR.

@PaulVanderKlay 2 жыл бұрын

I saw it. The "stagnate in its own frame" grabbed me. Thanks.

@peten5426 4 жыл бұрын

“One of the meanings of the first commandment- 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me' (Exodus xx, 3)-is that one should not substitute an intellectual abstraction of God for the spiritual reality of God. One therefore sins against the first commandment when one substitutes for the fiery, luminous and vibrant Being of life the abstractions of a 'principle' or 'idea'-be it the 'First Cause', or the 'Absolute'-which are, truth to tell, only mentally 'graven images' or mental idols created by the human intellect.” From the meditation on Justice in “Meditations on the Tarot.” Relevant to the conversation on idolatry.

@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын

Pete N to ‘Thou shalt have no other gods before me’ and no substitutes to for the fiery, luminous and vibrant Being of life, my thinking is like what Peterson says “ No one knows. We’re separated from infinity by death and ignorance “. I will go as far as to say that having Faith in a spiritual reality of God, does not trump the attempts of people with no Faith making reasonable attempts to conceptualise it intellectually, not with the cards at hand at this time anyway. And maybe all roads lead to Damascus after all. Be well

@Seth_D_Myers 2 ай бұрын

The idolatry and having a God you both understand and can’t understand and working in both frames to reset each other reframe each other seems very correct.

@J_Email 4 жыл бұрын

near 1h28m JV mentions the worst things are the good things gone bad - awesome sentiment at this point - check out Ivan Illich in talk with David Caley on this subject in the Corruption of Christianity - its a great listen

@stefangernert3499 4 жыл бұрын

How does the "intelligent design" theory (?) Fit into the "evolutionary" Self?

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

1:24:53 This reminds me of the idea of "living tradition". . . and of "development of doctrine". . .

@gaspingfortruth 4 жыл бұрын

Just finished Hubert Dryphus’ 8 hr commentary on Moby Dick. He gives Melville a haunting reading of the turn towards polytheism in the shadow of Ontotheology. Something Melville couldn’t have been aware of himself yet somehow captured it in his story.

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

1:13:36 "presence" of particularity: Tent / Tabernacle. . . Temple. . . Jesus ("he tabernacled [pitched his Tent] among us). . . Church & individuals ("do you not know that you are Temples" / Paul). . .

@MsGardener77 4 жыл бұрын

Wow, Guys!... Yeah, so much here...

@AdurianJ 4 жыл бұрын

Alexander Bard is a Swedish Singer/Songwriter known for his Libertarianism and somewhat depraved lifestyle ! He also likes to be provocative and is/was? a member of the Swedish version of Idol/"Sweden Got Talent". Two bands he was part of was "Army of Lovers" and BWO/"Bodies Without Organs" but he's much much more prolific as a songwriter than as a band member.

@falcondark5338 4 жыл бұрын

Ah Paul! So tantalizing/exasperating when I simultaneously realized that John doesn't follow you on the black box/ Weinstein critique thing, and that you were backing down because of an unfortunate connotation of an otherwise apt metaphor. More so because I think you did mean black box in the way he laid out, just maybe at a more metaphysical level? Anyway maybe for the best, after he reads Miracles you two might have more of a common idiom to work with.

@Mcpwnt 4 жыл бұрын

43:47 it seems to me RR is God as a function of the RR world view. That Vervaeke is objecting to the person part of god still because he wants to be able to use this with non theists maybe missing the point that god is going to be a activation of parts of the brain in a material pattern that invokes a experience and that's going to be the same weather its God or RR or One or whatever. Now it might be a pattern thats spread over time so it appears different from a particular frame/test. This would just make the proving more difficult not disprove it.

@PaulVanderKlay 4 жыл бұрын

I think this is a great comment.

@thomassimmons1950 4 жыл бұрын

Relevance to what...for whom?

@kennyblobbin 4 жыл бұрын

Maybe we need to seek God. And when we see Him (Jesus) we do die. And that’s where life is?

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

1:21:26 Also, on idolatry: Eugene Peterson / Eat This Book. . . (beginning of the book). . .

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

1:35:17 This is similar to the development of doctrine / John Henry Newman. . .

@DanHowardMtl 4 жыл бұрын

Check out all those books!

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

1:02:05 This (science) project sounds somewhat like Mortimer Adler's (philosophy) that he designated as "dialectics". . . See: Adler / How to Read a Book. . .

@IkeOg 4 жыл бұрын

Second!!! Yaaaaaaay!!!!

@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын

Shall I withdraw my claim to Second?

@IkeOg 4 жыл бұрын

dixon you've been studying quantum stuff right? So lets say we are both second in superposition

@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын

Ike Ogiamien “We’re in the stickiest situation since Sticky the Stick Insect got stuck on a sticky bun”! What to do? What to do?

@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын

Ike Ogiamien You are very generous, Sir! Please take your Second place, before we get Ouantum entangled. There’s always tomorrow to bring us a smile / Maybe we should borrow that thought for awhile / For then we’ll both remember that this is just a game. Be Well Sir Ike...

@joeya289 4 жыл бұрын

Not enough books in the background, I'm not sure if these guys are smart or not 😉

@aeonian4560 4 жыл бұрын

Shouldn't it be "God is the Ancient Solution to the Frame Problem"

@GrimGriz 4 жыл бұрын

17:33 - insert Wai H. Tsang

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

1:17:08 As John Senior calls it, the "Real Absence". . . and he was a believer ! 😄

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

1:15:21 Scientifically, the Heisenberg Principle !

@kiljoy5223 4 жыл бұрын

Re RR... or actually Religio, I think of that Ramachandran video kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hqx6g9eHt9KtZmg.html I’ve linked to it a few times... Ramachandran is being playful but he has a point. Would it make sense to say religio is about unifying... this sort of apparent cognitive (metaphysical?) dissonance?

@GrimGriz 4 жыл бұрын

Mind comes from mind in densities of amnesia

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

1:00:58 . . .and angels too ! 🙂

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

1:01:35 Theologically, devils and angels CAN be anywhere; they are present where they ACT. . . whereas God is omnipresent: and therefore is everywhere, though distinct from creation. . .

@AexisRai 4 жыл бұрын

I offer for consideration these very different conjugations of "If you see God, you will die." (1) "If you [encounter, without a frame] [the combinatorially explosive nature of reality] you will [be unable to function]." (2) "If you [attempt to fixate] [a single encompassing frame] you will [inevitably fail to deal with reality as it is]." Both are about framing; in one we can read it as about God's nature, and in the other, as about idolatry. (I admit that (2) is more like "if you attempt to make yourself able to see God as per (1) without dying, you will die but in a different sense". But the symmetry appeals to me.)

@PaulVanderKlay 4 жыл бұрын

consider the Genesis 3 story that if they eat of the tree they will surely die. When I was a kid reading this story I always wondered about why they didn't just die right there, as if the fruit were poison. Obviously the story was working on a level not quite according to my child-like expectation

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

1:32:23 🤔. . . Every "truth claim" has to have that !

@MHAFOOTBALL 4 жыл бұрын

God is the father of all fudge. Yes

@rationalphilosophy4339 4 жыл бұрын

Paul, have you considered that perhaps consciousness is not emergent from matter, but perhaps the other way around? Quantum Mechanics suggests this. You might want to look up the KZfaq channel Inspiring Philosophy (a Christian apologist) as he has several videos that address this: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/n6x1dbJ4sdDZoWg.html. I deeply respect John Vervaeke, but he is trying to get meaning out of (outdated) Newtonian Physics.

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

56:37 . . .so that we might become [in Christ], as it were, another incarnation of the Word. . . "partakers of the divine nature" (Peter). . .

@christopherk222 4 жыл бұрын

1:04:04 "replacing" religion. . . Now there's a project for you ! 😄

@tonym6566 4 жыл бұрын

50:00 57:50

@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын

Second again?

@IkeOg 4 жыл бұрын

Hmmm.... I think I was second mi lady.

@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын

Fifes And Clarions Yooooooo Fifes! How you doing?

@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын

@Fifes And Clarions Busy making a list of words that Vervaeke uses that I don't understand. Will need more paper and ink!! Why do I do this to myself? It is not good for my Ego..

@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын

@Fifes And Clarions I sure hope so. I've been told that if I stockpile all of these into my head I will only have to shake my head occasionally and they all will line up in an orderly fashion when I open my mouth and make me sound like I know things, very important things! Is that true Fifes? 😜

@kiljoy5223 4 жыл бұрын

Top ten 🙄

@IkeOg 4 жыл бұрын

Lol. I love it!!

@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын

Kiljoy Nice 👍

@kiljoy5223 4 жыл бұрын

@@vixendixon6943 😊

@bettermentprojectnotes808 4 жыл бұрын

“Father of all Fudge!” Makes me think of the tension of the already, not yet kingdom! It’s the spirit lead and the thought through! It’s by faith not by works lest any man should boast, yet work out your salvation! None of those equations balance! Father of fudge indeed!

@lzzrdgrrl7379 4 жыл бұрын

FIX the title: "God is the Ancient Solution to the Frame Problem".....'>........

@therunawayrascal 4 жыл бұрын

last!

@carlotapuig 4 жыл бұрын

Weinstein's thinking is so lazy, I don't gain much from listening to him. I struggle taking the likes of Bret Weinstein and Sam Harris seriously. Just too shallow and lazy thinking

@glof2553 4 жыл бұрын

Maybe he’s just stale, but I find the Weinsteins way more interesting than Harris. Not to say they’re my favorites, but still.

@jasonaus3551 4 жыл бұрын

So is there a sky Daddy? That is just as lazy

@glof2553 4 жыл бұрын

Jason Aus smallbrain