Christopher Mastropietro, is Relevance Realization Vervaeke's "God" #1?
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4 жыл бұрынChristopher was a student of John Vervaeke, was mentored and in some ways apprenticed by him and now is a collaborator with John on the meaning Crisis work. He agreed to do a video with me and we had a good conversation talking about his life, religion and John Vervaeke's work.
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@zeb358 4 жыл бұрын
I surprise myself as to how many of Pastor Paul's videos I watch! Right now I'm enamoured by his openness, curiosity and compassion towards all those he meets. For me all his efforts to make conversation about the meaning of our lives gives me consolation. Keep up the great work you do sir!
@johnvervaeke 4 жыл бұрын
This was excellent!!
@kbeetles 4 жыл бұрын
" we devolved into such a degree of literalism" that we are incapable to discuss anything about God - exactly! Thank you Chris! Thank you Paul - another important conversation here ..... must be listened to again! You chaps are giving us a hard time now- one casual listening is not enough, even one avid listening is not enough to find all the gems! And often it is hearing a certain word or phrase or way of expressing something that is so very helpful!
@aqualityexistence4842 4 жыл бұрын
I finally watched.. what a treat! Christopher had a beautiful way with language. So many good ideas. I can't wait to watch again. Yes, John has been so generous.
@janelvee1713 4 жыл бұрын
The word that jumped out at me was "afflictive." Longing for God feels like an affliction to me, a mixture of sorrow, hope and connection to something real. Father Thomas Keating's words that the longing for God is God comfort me.
@julianw6604 4 жыл бұрын
For me, the best image of the meaning crisis is the image of homelessness, this sense that one was once home, but now homless. This yearning for a return to something you cannot articulate. Maybe this metaphor presuposes, in a way that the dying star metaphor doesnt, that there IS a home to return to.
@blooobish 4 жыл бұрын
i've been using a somewhat similar metaphor - rootlessness. almost that we'v traded being rooted for modularity, the increase in flexibility and adaptability also causing a decrease in that feeling of 'home' or groundedness. thats put me in the mindset of asking how we might combine the two - floating homes lol (to which social networks i think are a good 'map' - it would be cool for instance if the discord server or some such digital network allowed people to travel in the world while still belonging to a peer group wherever they may land, both physically and digitally).
@johnbuckner2828 4 жыл бұрын
Yeah, totally relate to this 45:25 - 47:30 It's almost like suffering from some form of lethologica
@RayC-pk9dg 4 жыл бұрын
"Birds have nests foxes have dens But the hope of the whole world rests On the shoulders of a homeless man You had the shoulders of a homeless man No You did not have a home" Rich Mullins "You Did not Have a Home"
@bard5865 4 жыл бұрын
So the biblical exile I suppose?
@julianw6604 4 жыл бұрын
@@bard5865 Or the expulsion from the garden, exile is also a good image.
@timothydeneffe249 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks again Paul for this. Your work is becoming more and more instrumental. Starting to become more comfortable with intentionally having a foot in each camp instead of saying I'm unaffiliated.
@dsuleyma 4 жыл бұрын
This was really cool, thanks for putting this together Paul.
@byaringan13 4 жыл бұрын
This is gonna be good! Thanks Paul!
@sheilairwin1756 4 жыл бұрын
Tennyson said, "Our little systems have their day; they have their day and cease to be; they are but broken lights of Thee; and Thou, oh Lord, art more than they." Sheila from Ontario
@pn5721 4 жыл бұрын
45:30 "Imagine that we're living in the afterglow of a dying star..." "the loss of that infinite aspect, as if partaking in eternity is lost to us."
@TheMeaningCode 4 жыл бұрын
As I was listening to this conversation, I was thinking that in all of the conversations I’ve heard, the missing element has been the Holy Spirit and there’s been almost no discussion about Him, and then around minute 59 when he starts describing the way John sees God, he’s pretty much describing the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer. At least that’s very similar to my experience of the Holy Spirit in my life. Also, whenever I am in a Bible study with other people who are authentic and authentically seeking to know God, it always amazes me how the Holy Spirit speaks through each of the individuals to deepen and magnify the meaning of the Word.
@brendantannam499 4 жыл бұрын
I’m not a believer anymore but I wonder did the focus on God in a nominal sense detract from a complete way of life that the holy spirit would make clearer and more intelligible. I found the Christian life dead, in love with the negative, and lacking joy and truth. If holy spirit is a real thing, it is either asleep on the job or an earth-changing facility that practically nobody tunes into.
@TheMeaningCode 4 жыл бұрын
Brendan Tannam So many churches today will say that the trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but in all of their teaching and practice, their trinity is Father, Son and Holy Scriptures and I can see why you feel that kind of church is legalistic and dead. But the Holy Spirit is real and is our connection to Jesus now that He is no longer here in the flesh. If you ask God for the Holy Spirit, He will not give you a stone.
@leedufour 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks Christopher and Paul.
@susancassan6870 4 жыл бұрын
A long time ago, Jordan Peterson said, “We don’t know what KZfaq is for. It seemed like place for cute cat videos, but we don’t yet understand what it can do.” The reason I follow your videos and Vervaeke’s videos every time there is a release, is that a conversation is developing in this space that could never have happened before. Having Christopher on is adding another dimension that is expanding the conversation. The important thing about your and Paul’s conversation and efforts is that you are both trying to go somewhere with your understanding rather than just venting. And you are both so generously welcoming others, thousands of others, along on the journey and allowing them to add their insights to it. Jordan Peterson lit a fire. Millions of people realized they needed that light to see their life. You and Paul are doing the hard work of systematically attacking the questions he raised. Somehow, you and he are converging in a way that has the potential to provide, for those who are seeking, real answers. And there are more people, thanks to Peterson, listening than have been as materialism has dominated the culture for decades. I thank you for making a seat available to me for the wild and wonderful ride!
@brendantannam499 4 жыл бұрын
You're quite right about Jordan Peterson. He sure did light a fire. I hope we get to hear from him again. I was really looking forward to the talks on Exodus.
@marykochan8962 4 жыл бұрын
The sense of God receding. You explained it so wonderfully. And yet, he is so close. It Is we who move away.
@taratasarar 4 жыл бұрын
"Existentially courageous" indeed, Paul. Respect. And thank you again for another great dialogue. Thank you both. Very helpful.
@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын
Such beautiful articulation! Very impressive!!
@truelovecafecanada290dunda3 4 жыл бұрын
Beautiful discussion.
@katarinalkuhn9717 2 жыл бұрын
Wow. The end of this conversation has me yelling in the car, hoping Paul will hear my urging that he tackle some Iain McGilchrist's, "The Matter with Things". His recent conversation on Rebel Wisdom hinted at a world of revelation around the problem of what matter is. I would LOVE to hear Paul's take on some McGilchrist stuff!
@PaulVanderKlay 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, it's worth tackling. The question about what we mean by "Revelation" is not simple. Everything thinks they know what they are saying. I'm not so sure.
@marykochan8962 4 жыл бұрын
Oh Paul, I really agree with what you said about the way the term realization has its inside and outside. And how when you start to think about it you really see how it applies so much. I have often thought that the same thing is true of one of Jordan Peterson's favorite words, responsibility. Is it something imposed upon someone from outside or is it the ability to respond, coming from within? When we really stop to think about these words we uncover entire worlds of thought.
@IEGTI 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for your thoughtful observation, Mary!
@RayC-pk9dg 4 жыл бұрын
Lots of wisdom here.
@thomassimmons1950 4 жыл бұрын
What a fascinating young man. Another Vanderklay find. Paul would have been a great talent scout.
@calebdejong8478 2 жыл бұрын
Chris' articulation of Vervæke's religious unease reminds me of Nathaniel Hawthorne's description of Herman Melville: "He can neither believe, nor be comfortable in his unbelief; and he is too honest and courageous not to try to do one or the other."
@PaulVanderKlay 2 жыл бұрын
That's good!
@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026 2 жыл бұрын
“We have to ask questions. We have to talk.” Paul sounds like Francis Schaeffer. Dante senses what Paul pinpoints as the loss: “We have abandoned the cultivation of language with respect to God.” Dante is nailing down the pegs of the Medieval Context, as he sees it slipping away.
@raqko 4 жыл бұрын
Great talk, At 1 hr sounds like Brahman as God. Definitely watch Pastor Paul's sermons!
@pn5721 4 жыл бұрын
1:00:00. "The cascading disclosure of the realization..."
@boxzx 2 жыл бұрын
Great Convo! I'm unable to find the video of Chris And John discussing the symptoms of the meaning crisis. Or Paul's response they mentioned in here. If anybody knows what to search for...thanks
@IkeOg 4 жыл бұрын
First yaay!!
@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын
Yaaaaaay!
@KingJorman 4 жыл бұрын
Great conversation. I’m not even done yet. Sad point about Brett not feeling welcome to ask questions in Hebrew school. Maybe because his teacher, who may very well was not a rabbi, felt threatened by Brett’s obvious intelligence. But especially because the Israelites are the wrestlers with God, so questions, doubts, and skepticism is part and parcel of being a Jew. A point about “is god real?” Lately I say there are different dimensions of reality. There is the reality of objects and there is the reality of experience, which has no extension in time and space. Both are real, yet in different ways. And so God is real, but how so? He’s not pointoutable in the common material object realm. But that doesn’t mean there is no God. Thank you Christopher and Paul! Great illuminating discussion!
@marykochan8962 4 жыл бұрын
Once again Paul has his videos on video tape!😂
@PaulVanderKlay 4 жыл бұрын
I'm an old man really I guess...
@michel-jeantailleur 4 жыл бұрын
Relevance Realization is more like prayer than like God. "The cascading disclosure of the realization..." of what you want or, more relevantly, what is wanted of you.
@peterbenjaminmusic 4 жыл бұрын
I appreciate the segment here about the non-binary confusion with grade school bathrooms. Yes, children are going to 'act out' roles according to a relatively simple dichotomous system. Adults, on the other hand, might act out something rather more complex (not complicated, yes?) or sophisticated by virtue of their more nuanced understanding of their own sexual and/or gender identity. The point here is that, if gender is in fact at least partially constructed by individuals and society, then it would stand to reason that introducing the whole gamut of expressive possibilities too soon would be overwhelmingly confusing to children. So, it's not hetero/cis/patriarchal normative oppression, it's a society acting out good and mindful developmental practice.
@gunterappoldt3037 4 жыл бұрын
One question: What do You think of the "Projekt Weltethos", initiated by Prof. Hans Küng? Did You get any inspirations out of this approach to a big, open-minded global dialogue, which, I think, already produced some interesting results by using a comparative-understandig methodoogy, like, e.g., the (albeit non-exhaustive, how could it be) synopsis of "Buddhismus und Christentum" by Michael Brück and Whalen Lai?
@PaulVanderKlay 4 жыл бұрын
No, I haven't heard of this.
@gunterappoldt3037 4 жыл бұрын
@@PaulVanderKlay May be, I overestimated the influence of this Projekt, which was started in Tübingen/Germany about 1991, at the "ökumenisches Institut", if I remember right. Prof. Küngs (discipline: allgemeine katholische Theologie; Prof. Küng participated at the Vaticanum II, has retired some years ago) intention was, to help reduce tensions especially between religions as still powerful socio-cultural agents, motto: "No peace on earth, between the peoples, without peace between religions!". At this time, the power of the theory of the unstoppable decline of Religion per se and it`s replacement by positivist sciences etc. was even stronger as today; yet the need for open dialogue between all world-views, competing with one another on global scale, seems even more important.
@gunterappoldt3037 4 жыл бұрын
Addendum: One insight of beknowing-man (homo sapiens) not only nowadays seems to be (scientific background: sociology of Religion, "classics", e.g.: Emile Durckheim and Max Weber, also Thomas Luckmann): Religion (big question: How do we define "it", the relevant phenomena, frames and contexts, etc. adequately to know what concretely we are talking about!) is too important to let it be monopolized by "the Religions".
@garrymckee 4 жыл бұрын
Dang! I might have to quit working to be first again.
@IkeOg 4 жыл бұрын
Slow your roll Garry
@garrymckee 4 жыл бұрын
Ike Ogiamien apparently its slow enough if i hit #3
@vixendixon6943 4 жыл бұрын
Dooh. At least I can boast about my hat trick of lately!
@marykochan8962 4 жыл бұрын
"This is me breaking the seal." Well that's a nice Catholic thing to say.😂
@Matthew-pm8fg 4 жыл бұрын
Not to speak with undue synonymity, but the System reminds me of Hegel in The Phenomenology of Spirit. Kierkegaard was right to point out that this System could not account for Faith. In other words, it could not draw the line between Relevance Realization and Infinite Passion. To quote my teacher, K., Faith is a Passion. (It brings us to Logos, as it were, running and running). Kierkegaardian Existentialism is the medicine of meaning.
@rudivandoornegat2371 3 жыл бұрын
Jordan Peterson: Why? (impotence church and when material and immaterial touch) John Vervaeke: Why? (bad church and what happens when material and immaterial touch) Christopher Mastropietro: Why? (search for the missing link) Little Brett Weinstein: Why? (disappointed in Hebrew school) Sally: Why? Me: Why? (the missing link) PVK answer: We know enough, we never know all. And also PVK warns: don't expect the Disney experience in Yosemite! On the other hand the church doesn't cater to people that ask Why, especially the rationally wired young kids like little Brett Weinstein. Probably Judeo-Christian religion lost a great mind to atheism in Brett Weinstein, in this way. This was a conversation I really enjoyed.
@TheMeaningCode 4 жыл бұрын
The separation of God from His creation is the genesis of space. Without separation there is no space. And space is essential for the existence of action that begins the existence of time.
@robb7855 4 жыл бұрын
I wonder if this Vervaeke-ian frame of "in-tune-ment" can hit the Right note.
@sunrhyze Жыл бұрын
At 1:19:00 Paul talks about the self, the narrative, all of that depending on our state of health. I'm rejecting materialism, moving beyond the Deism I'd settled into for 40 years of adult life, and learning the Church's view that we are "embodied souls." But my husband has had two strokes in the last seven years, is clearly diminished mentally as well as physically, and in my experience is simply not the same "self" that he used to be. So where is the missing part/percentage of him, of his soul, of his "self"? Is it trapped in there? Where is "there"? I have tons of questions and no one to explain any of it to me. I can't imagine the frustration of a bright young mind like Weinstein's, being fed the dogmas and not allowed to ask any questions. We have lots of questions.
@WhiteStoneName 4 жыл бұрын
1:28:18 “God as an object...literalism.” That’s modernist thinking! Gabriel Marcel calls it “objectifying thinking”.
@WhiteStoneName 4 жыл бұрын
Thoughts: 1. Duality and non-duality is not a simple, obvious issue. *see Eric Weinstein’s #IslandRules 2. PanENtheism is dope and not pantheism. 3. I was also grieved at Bret’s story of Hebrew school not being open to questions. That’s also ubiquitous in much of Western Christianity. For reasons I often try to articulate. *see Esther meek. Also, ask the question of **why** the church has been/is so afraid of questions (even earnest ones).
@marykochan8962 4 жыл бұрын
We've got a very weird synchronicity going on that has to do with salt and freshwater. You'll notice it when you see my video. By the way, I'm not a very fast speaker I don't think, so you could probably play my videos much faster and still get everything.
@PaulVanderKlay 4 жыл бұрын
I'm loving that video Mary. I'm so loving what you'rd doing with this.
@brendantannam499 4 жыл бұрын
Paul's open mind reminds me of the clergyman (and philosopher) Thomas Reid's letter to David Hume which ended with these gracious words: Your friendly adversaries, Drs. Campbell and Gerard, as well as Dr. Gregory, return their compliments to you respectfully. A little Philosophical Society here, of which all three are members, is much indebted to you for its entertainment. Your company, although we are all good Christians, would be more acceptable than that of Athanasius ; and since we cannot have you upon the bench, you are brought oftener than any other man to the bar ; accused and defended with great zeal, but without bitterness. If you write no more in morals, politics, and metaphysics, I am afraid we shall be at a loss for subjects. I
@sac78008 4 жыл бұрын
This is the dead land This is cactus land Here the stone images Are raised, here they receive The supplication of a dead man's hand Under the twinkle of a fading star. T.S.Eliot, the Hollow Men
@thomassimmons1950 4 жыл бұрын
Paul Tillich: THE COURAGE TO BE Wow...this kid is amazing! This is soul talk God or (no) God! PS: Look at how Orthodoxy has bloomed, spring like in Russia, after the Bolshevik winter. "It ain't over till it's over." (Yogi Berra) Or, or...how about this: God is the Holy Spirit, unveiling of the mystery of the Church throughout History.
@123uiogd 4 жыл бұрын
The world is fraught with God 😋
@joshuadonahue5871 4 жыл бұрын
Third?
@garrymckee 4 жыл бұрын
Joshua Donahue nawan youre 4. ;-)
@amazonbooks237 Жыл бұрын
Love saves Hope From the Ashes of Despair The Ground of Being is the creative source of the archetype, from which the intelligence of the Logos incarnates the 'symbollic life,' according to Jung, that is the stuff of Individuation. Self is the Golden Flower afforded by the soul's perfection, and this makes self at-one with the notion of God. To come to the full realization of self is akin to the Atman's coincidence with Brahman; therefore implying the transcendence-immanence actuality of the living Christ, or Buddha free of the vsymbolic projection and empowered directly from the archetype as the 'Word made flesh.'
@marykochan8962 4 жыл бұрын
Guess what?
@PaulVanderKlay 4 жыл бұрын
Was Mary first?! Looks very close. Both say 6 minutes.
@IkeOg 4 жыл бұрын
I'll take a draw
@marykochan8962 4 жыл бұрын
@Dan Wagenmaker I'm even more nefarious than I thought I was.🤔🐔🐓
@PaulVanderKlay 4 жыл бұрын
Mary's whole channel is just a scheme to win the "first" game?!
@marykochan8962 4 жыл бұрын
@Dan Wagenmaker oh believe me I'm really waiting for people to start unpacking the multiple levels of truth I stuck in that video. It's such a strange thing, that you can write or say something and have a sudden realization that you put something together that you didn't even know you were putting together until after it was done.
@Seth_D_Myers 2 ай бұрын
The literalism and having to a physical object to believe in something.
@de0den 4 жыл бұрын
1:22:40 - Peterson is not a preacher. The reason he is so compelling is that he is not. He elucidates the Biblical stories in a way that even confirmed atheists can see their significance at least in a psychological/philosophical way. If he were a preacher I would not be a follower.
@dospook 2 жыл бұрын
It's just like me to leave the most revelant comment. Basically I think the young fella, expressed a huge over bloating of round- about adjectives to over indulge each congratulatory avoidance of a simple and direct reply. Blowing lexical bubbles in his milk. So besides complimenting John in such a regurgitative manner after first being bound to John and his work, I think this young fella might have advanced semiotics and the great elucidation of man kind through this type of discourse absolutely zero. A string of 30$ words bound between 10 & 20$ words linked together, surrounding each topic like a bubble wrap, protecting a bag of marshmallows from unnecessary dents. Wtf? ! Why compliment this young fella in any manner other than to thank him for the softest non- advancing verbose verbal handjob which both John and the this pastor could handle. With some unwanted sprinkles mixed in. It's as if the young fella talked about his sharing a swimming pool with John where John had nicely pissed in the lap lane, And now the this young fella finally got to feel his own warm piss in John's swimming pool. Flaps about with his plastic floaties on just describing ho great their collective piss reflects off the floaties. NOT advancing a topic at all. "Yup, he's just spinning in circles in the deep end of the semiotic piss pool, speakin as high-fu'lutin' as Nothing Burger CAN speak. Bless the old guys soul for seeing the best in everyone. It must have been a hell of an exercise in tolerance to put up with a coated- narcissist such as this. Didn't either of you guy get your " I blew the best smoke up my interlocutor's ass" trophy yet?! No!!!? Well someone has to start handling out the awards to end this obscenity once twice, thrice and for all. It's almost an embarrassment to me that I knew each word spoken. I just didn't think I'd finally witness the gravitous of empty circumnavigation until this moment. In summary: no praxis! Yo!
@malpais776 4 жыл бұрын
Christianity is on its way out. What are we going to accept as a replacement? A sacred replacement?
@marykochan8962 4 жыл бұрын
Christianity can only be on its way out if it is not true. If it is true it will not be on its way out. It may Wax and Wane but it will always stay. Christians are not looking for a replacement for it. And it may be that some do not really recognize how many Christians there are.
@joub8600 4 жыл бұрын
Whatever happens to be around online and in public life. I doubt any of our musings will change anything... Best to remain with what you have and tough it out as best you can...
@julianw6604 4 жыл бұрын
@@marykochan8962 It can be on the way out and true at the same time.
@marykochan8962 4 жыл бұрын
@@julianw6604 not if part of its truth is that it will always be protected by God from going out.
@marykochan8962 4 жыл бұрын
Although, to Steel Man your point, Jesus did ask if when he returned he would find faith on the Earth.
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