Haha, nice!

ahahahahaha

How about "Romansh +6?"

Piston, in his Harmony text, uses Swiss 6th for the German 6th re-voiced to call the 3rd note an augmented 2nd above the tonic rather than a minor 3rd. The note then resolves up a semitone rather than down, which as Richard points out is what Mozart and Haydn both did, moving to the tonic 6-4 to avoid the parallel 5th.

Try saying "Swiss Sixth" 10 times fast.

yes

P.S. 11:04 = Swiss 6th! LOL

@@derekdavid1 Ha! I should've thought of that!

Maybe it's "on" Eb major but not "in" Eb major.

Only a fool such as I would argue with our dear host's dry and accurate sense of humor, but I think the distinction here between "modulating" for a few measures vs simply emphasizing the VIb with some of its dominant V7s is, to quote him in a comment, not substantive but rather a discussion of notational convention -- which from a listening point of view is irrelevant.

A II or IV would seal the deal!

I love this comment, because one of the primary goals of this channel is to help people realize that Haydn specifically is a top-tier composer.

@@Richard.Atkinson got me to sight-read one of his piano sonatas yesterday, too haha. I don't think I've opened that book since I bought it. Anyway, I shared your video to my music-tumblr, no-tritones-for-you ^^

Have you heard the symphony where the string section tunes up in the middle of the development section? Penderecki eat your heart out!

@@DeflatingAtheism If you're talking about the final 6th mvt. of Symphony No. 60 in C ("Il Distratto"), I talked about this moment in my video about Mozart's "A Musical Joke." But it's not in the development section... kzfaq.info/get/bejne/msxjl9VkyKqzlqM.html

@@Richard.Atkinson You are doing God's work. While I am not the theory geek of you or many here, I have found that when I look closely at Haydn String Quartets, I find many cases where Haydn does what what I was taught was original to Beethoven. Thanks for the great videos.

86 is such a masterpiece. But so are most of the others...

I don't think Beethoven got much out of his formal exercises with Haydn (he said as much himself), but Haydn was almost certainly his greatest influence, and it's pretty obvious Beethoven did extensive self-study of Haydn's works.

@@Richard.Atkinson Absolutely. He was probably just being an angry young man. We have probably all been there - yawning through lectures during the day - realising we are going no where unless we study furiously all night.

Mozart/Haydn/Beethoven/Schubert quartet!

I don't think there is a clear point of where Beethoven becomes Beethoven. This is what I notice in the Classical Era Trio of composers as I go from early works to later works: Early Classical Era: Haydn already showing his humorous self, Young Mozart borrowing heavily from Haydn's style, showing the musical brotherhood they had from the start (ex. Symphony no. 1 in Eb, Mozart ; Symphony no. 22 in Eb, Haydn) Mid Classical Era: Haydn's style already established, Mozart takes Haydn's humorous style and develops it into his own "Complexity from Simplicity" type of style(Simple individual melodic lines, complex melodic interactions and development)(ex. Piano Sonata in D major, Haydn ; Paris Symphony, Mozart) Late Classical Era: Haydn stays with his Conservative Classicism and his rhythmic and dynamic humor, Mozart goes in a different direction with his style, more towards Middle Period Beethoven, Beethoven himself starts in a style not far off from his Middle Period style, then later goes to a more Mozartian style(Surprise Symphony, Haydn ; Symphony no. 40 in G minor, Mozart(First Movement and Finale both have similarities to Beethoven's Fifth Symphony) ; 9 Variations on a March in C minor, Beethoven(Early style, not too far off from Middle Period) ; Flute Sonata in Bb, Beethoven(Composed from 2 years before Mozart's death to 2 years after Mozart's death, it has a very Mozartian style, maybe Beethoven wrote it as a peaceful requiem for Mozart, showing how much he learned from Mozart) Turn of the Romantic Era: Haydn, still keeping with his Conservative Classicism, even as Beethoven's style changes to reflect the time, Beethoven's style really flourishes into one of it's own, like Mozart's did in the Mid Classical Era(String Quartet in D minor "Unfinished", Haydn ; Symphonies 3 and 5, Beethoven(with Symphony no. 5 especially foreshadowed by Mozart before) ; Pathetique Sonata, Beethoven Definitely Romantic Era: Mix of 2 styles by Beethoven, a more Classical Period, recall of Mozart type of style, akin to that in his Flute Sonata in Bb, and another style that takes his Middle Period style and pushes the boundaries even further(Symphony no. 8, Beethoven(Recall of Mozart's Era kind of style) ; Appasionata Sonata(Middle Period style pushed even further than in the Pathetique Sonata or his Fifth Symphony, A precursor to Chopin's style)

Several of the Haydn symphonies begin with a 'fantasy' intro that could be late Beethoven, as far as I'm concerned.

All 4 of its movements are strange/exceptional in some way...

@@Richard.Atkinson Indeed.

i love this quartet K465

Another great one!

@@Richard.Atkinson Probably one famous German 6th which people might not notice occurs near in the beginning of Beethoven's 5th symphony (measure 20) which resolves straight to the dominant chord

I allways wondered why Mozarts' requiem has become so admired while the Haydn Stabat Mater is way better and in the same atmosphere, yet almost never performed. I agree with you that Haydn is undoubtedly one of the most complete musical geniuses of all time.

@@christianwouters6764 interesting take. I don’t know if Haydn’s stabat mater is superior (or whether they are comparable), but it is definitely a very nice work.

Bruckner 7 is my profile picture.

Dyslexics untie!

phryg yeah, obroe!

@@pleasepermitmetospeakohgre1504 yeah I can’t read music, but I can hear it!

I wrote a cello piece where parallel fifths between bII - > i and bVI - > V are a recurring thematic element. I like the severity of the sound, particularly when combined with open-string double stops on the cello.

@@DeflatingAtheism Without hearing your piece, for some reason, your description reminded me of this moment from the final 5th mvt. of Bartok's 4th Quartet (viola and cello playing double-stopped perfect fifths), starting at 1:17 in this video: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/i56EltV-q6zVeps.html

P. S. This movement will be one of my next videos after the Brahms Symphonies...

Brahms does that a lot!

Another popular interpretation is that Germany is north of France, which is north of Italy, and that variable note goes progressively "south" in each chord. Include Switzerland, if you like. And another, if politically incorrect, interpretation is that the Italian is the simple one (fewest notes), the German is the one that sounds like a "dominant 7th chord" (a more popular stereotype around W W II) and the French is the ambiguous one (it's symmetrical structure yielding 2 candidates for "roots" -- from a time when Tom Lehrer could write, "Then France got the bomb, but don't you grieve, 'cause they're on our side, I believe." All in good fun.

So Mendelssohn is Italian?

@@spiritofeden5377 Well, I know he composed and performed in Italy. And I hear that Italian style in a lot of his works, with Symphony no. 1 being like the only symphony of his that I've listened to that's clearly more German than Italian(Beethoven's Fifth Symphony influence all over it). And I've listened to 3 of his 5 symphonies, symphonies 1, 3, and 4

Schubert seems a little Frenchy in sensibility.

Brilliant!

That could work. All of this nuance with notation is largely just a question of people agreeing on a convention.

Oops, I just wrote a comment saying that without reading this. Sorry for being redundant :/

Actually yes! The +6 chords have been very frequently used as a device to modulate from one key to its mediant. In my opinion, it’s pretty jarring if not done well, but it can be done pretty well.

Yes, that’s the point I’m making at 12:14.

-I just realized the Neapolitan sixth in Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 23 (from your video) arises in exactly this way.- A more obscure one that came to mind was Chopin's Polonaise, Op. 40, No. 2, trio section. There's a passage that goes "V -> I (in A major) -> V -> I (in A-flat major)", which is a respelling of "German sixth -> Neapolitan sixth -> V -> I". Edit: Actually the Mozart example is missing a note so it doesn't qualify as an augmented sixth at all.

Yes, try Mozart's piano concerto no. 17, 20 and 25 first movements, you can see the progression of N6, #ivdim7, V in there

I actually had an image that I pruned from the final version of this video that showed how the Fr+6 is just a V7/V chord in 2nd inversion if you raise its lowest note by a half step. So yes, they naturally function in the same way, since both contain the leading tone of the dominant.

Also, I would definitely call the last few chords of that movement "V of V on a pedal of V" but the first part of the measure is still a retardation.

This is also Schoenberg's explication, a ninth chord without the fundamental

@@alessandropalazzani A major ninth chord without the fundamental AND with lowered fifth ("Verkürzter Doppeldominantseptnonenakkord mit tiefalterierter Quinte", in German), afaik.

bVI could also be thought of as a tritone sub for V of V as well. Though I guess it's analyzed differently in classical music

If you can figure out how to do it, I'm happy to approve them.

I think maybe I could do it in a txt file and send it to you, idk. I will study the best way to do it. Can we talk by mail?

I generally try to stay out of these semantic arguments over labeling, but somehow I allowed myself to be involved in this one...

It can be rather a vortex! Good job avoiding most of them, but yes, this one's tough to stay away from.

@Austin Culler Agreed completely! My only quibble is the label "V6/4" itself. I know what it's trying to say, but isn't it a little inconsistent compared to what the usual meaning of "I6" (for example) is? Arguably that's more a problem with the Roman numeral system itself than anything else, since it's a little weird that the Roman numeral indicates the root while the Arabic numerals reference the bass.

@Austin Culler Yes, all that is true, but I guess I should put my qualm a bit more pointedly. In C major, if we call G-C-E a V6/4, what do we call D-G-B?

@Austin Culler Mmhmm yeah, to me it sort of seems to point towards Roman numerals maybe no longer being the right solution in general, though unfortunately nothing's really swooped in to take their place!

A bit late: there are ten billion ways but how about after setting the key of Ab: Ab - A halfdim7/G - D7/F# (now youre already in g minor territory but you can skip straight to) - F dim7 - C/E, you can go to A7/E and voilà D minor. This sort of follows the principle of chromatic movement in opposing directions.

In the same vein: you can use A flat as the Neapolitan of G minor, and go Ab - Ab/C - gm/D - e dim7 - dm/F - e halfdim7/g - A - dm.

Ab - Ab7/Gb - F7 - Bb - ehalfdim7/g - A - dm Ab - f# dim7 - Bb/F - ehalfdim7 - dm