I owned a music store from 1993-97. You wouldn’t believe the obstacles I ran into in those 4 years. You needed Billboard magazine to know what to buy. A year subscription was hundreds of dollars. Cassette tapes became phased out, leaving tons of dead inventory. CD’s still growing, so having to buy artists on both cd and tape, was expensive. Walmart selling cheaper than I could buy from wholesale. Then Circuit City, Best Buy came to town. I got out before Napster, which gave it all free. That was the death of the music store

No cd players in cars anymore sure hurts.

I still buy CDs. My teen daughter used to make light fun of me until she started to collect LPs. She noticed that she would pay anywhere from $20-35 dollars per LP and the CD editions only cost $5-$12 (and often had extra tracks not on the LPs), so now she collects CDs. CDs are just so much more practical than LPs - you can listen to them anywhere. The only thing I miss about LPs is the large artwork.

Still buying CDs. Couldn't give a flying fck what people are doing. Love CDs, the sound quality, the liner notes, the physical feel, the price, collecting them. The list goes on. Long live CDs...

One of the reasons is because back then there was nothing else to do. I’d read every word on the album cover. I knew who some of the producers and engineers were! 😂 Pre internet, 3 TV channels and my parents weren’t big on magazine subscriptions. Remember those?

Video killed the radio star Video killed the radio star In my mind and in my car We can't rewind, we've gone too far.

It's pretty telling that social media sites refer to music and visuals (video and photos) as "content" rather than calling them art. That tells you everything you need to know about how modern audiences are being conditioned to appreciate art.

It also correlates with the shift from "ownership" to "subscription/rental" based economics. When people OWN something, they make a commitment to it. When we stop owning "physical" things (like CD's) and shift to subscribing, downloading, or (free) streaming... there is no commitment to music. In our faster paced days, this paradigm holds true for life and our trend towards "experiential" spending... this money goes to massive corporations that have leveraged "fee for service", instead of allowing you to possess your own capital.

There is a direct correlation between the death of the CD / physical media sales and the rise of concert ticket prices. Would love to hear the inside of that.

I want to add that even bands like Foreigner, Boston, and Loverboy were largely faceless to all but the die hards. That's why Foreigner was able to tour with one or no original members for decades.

My father and I would rarely admit to enjoying each others' music, so when he finally broke that silence by telling me certain songs I was playing that he enjoyed, I didn't try to further piss him off. That was never the goal. Instead, I would try to find even more common ground. It became a great challenge, trying to figure him out, and what I loved that he also enjoyed. I thought it was a great honor to have his approval. He once came home and 'caught' me listening to one of his old albums, and he never said a word, but I could tell he was pleased. I'm 63 now, and I really miss him.

Growing up in Boston, and going to university in the area, there was nothing like going to Harvard Square and Central Square , checking out records at the Coop; or Kenmore Square checking out the locally owned record stores. This hands on experience was half of the music experience. You talked to the record store guy about records, you fingered through the albums. You discovered new musicians by album covers and what was playing in the store... Miss all that.

Discogs is even better than Wikipedia for getting to the details of a given record, and IMO a better place for it. Some folks have been transcribing the full notes for some albums, and it's an amazing resource, especially when the damn record companies don't put the proper information on the releases!

Best quote of the week "make better records"....cheers

I think the best liner note gag in history was Twisted Sister. The guitarist thanked the maker and the strings, the drummer his sticks, etc. And Dee Snider thanked Vidal Sassoon hair care products! lol And always with the line "are you listening, Vidal?" And then, after 3-4 albums (2-3 of which were big/massive mainstream hits), the liner note now said: "Dee Snider no longer uses Vidal Sassoon products. You blew it, Vidal!" Lol omg... I laughed for a week when I read that. And no one in the last 25+ years will ever have an experience like that.

I always thought rap music is what killed the music industry

Yes! Listening used to be a much more intentional activity. You paid attention. Hours spent on the bed, gatefold album open, liner notes and lyrics out. That was the visual stimulation that went along with the music of the day. Miss those days, but cherish the memories and routines of my youth that, if subjected to today's listeners, would never be fully appreciated (they'd get bored soooo quickly sans screen).

I have always loved CDs - when my dad passed away a few years back I inherited an amazingly huge CD and Vinyl collection (and me and my Dad loved a lot of the same stuff) - and I've finally got a decent setup again and started listening to CDs and Vinyl - I now understand my Dad's collection - it doesn't necessarily follow the bands, it follows the producers and the session guys. (Why does he have Steely Dan, Toto, Christopher Cross, Michael McDonald, Doobie Brothers, Eric Johnson) (why does he have Chicago, Peter Cetera, David Foster, Earth, Wind & Fire) (Peter Gabriel, Tony Levin, Manu Katche, Tracy Chapman) I now always read the liner notes while listening, and am getting to a point where I can tell who is on what albums from their sound (like a certain drummer, or producer) - to me this is really appreciating music - it's not about the headline name, it's about the band, and production and what each person brings to the table.

"There was so little information about bands that you studied liner notes." That one line took me back in time.

I used to love the little booklets that came with cds. It was so exciting to find lyrics, artwork and photos of my favorite artists.

I remember the recording industry defending high price CD's, saying prices would come down once their production capacity ramped up. I never did see CD prices come down.

I remember buying singles at Tower Records for the B-sides and Japanese imports etc. Paying like $30 for 4 songs and then all of a sudden a few years later, all of those songs are on Napster and Limewire for nothing. All of my friends who had massive bookcases of CD’s stopped buying music. You knew things were changing.

Growing up in a musical household meant new albums were a treat for everyone. We would sit around the stereo with new CDs, especially when the new Big Shiny Tunes mix dropped. Then we had MTV music and DVDs of performances that were played in the background during parties or any social times for that matter. It was so ingrained in everything we did. Now everyone is stuck to their phone scrolling mindlessly with an occasional laugh. Myself included. Im trying to get back to the old ways of taking things slower... We stress ourselves out way to much lately .. we need to remember how to work AND play again.

I stopped buying CDs when the only place around selling them became Wal-Mart and Target. Now I buy my Depeche Mode and Erasure CDs on pre-order when I first hear they're dropping a new album. I don't even know if things like singles with alternate mixes on them still exist. And I don't buy digital versions because I don't have a smartphone. I miss browsing music stores

I don't recognize this dude that Rick is talking to. But he's awesome. He's a really good compliment to Rick. Keep him on for more! Talk about industry topics.

This honestly just made me sad. I started playing drums in 1999. I was 14 years old. The death of physical media and music videos really affected music. I still play drums to this day but at the peak of my "career" all this was happening and made it even harder.

These conversations about the evolution of the music industry are fascinating. Keep them going.👍

I do agree with Lars, that downloading without paying is theft. That said, sorry Music Industry, the comment about "filler" is spot on. Due to being forced to buy albums with one or two good songs per album, with the rest noise, I've not paid for music since 2005.

The quality of music dwindled as we headed into the 90’s and beyond. You no longer needed the entire record because there was only a song or two that you liked-music downloading services also greatly attributed to the hunting of songs and the loss of tangible products to hold in your hand and devour. You no longer needed album sleeves, tape jackets or CD booklets for lyrics because you could find the info online. The internet really began catching fire in the late 90’s and nobody was ready for the changes about to come.

The last minute of the interview: So true! Tons of great tunes that never get heard. Top hits are not the only good music. Also if you are huge, your new song gets overwhelming airplay and becomes a hit even if it's only so-so.

It was uncontrolled GREED that killed the music industry. Artists were never allowed to include more than 3 good songs in a 20$ album. And the music industry did this because they thought that they controlled both the demand (by manipulating radio air play) and the supply. However, the moment mp3s became available online, the slaves were finally free of their shackles. And there was no turning back.

I had a couple of "cover bands" in the 60's & 70's as "front-man" singer, guitar, keyboards. . . I am 83 & I'm encouraged to see the young musicians today on KZfaq "covering" some of the greatest music of my era (1950's, 60's & 70's) as well as original songs of their own - - many of them are setting up "live" concert tours - - I hope people are getting out there to see & hear & support their efforts.

Since it’s kind of on-topic, I really hate how “listening to music” on Apple Music doesn’t feel like listening to music any more. I’m sitting here with an incredibly powerful, high resolution device. It’s a perfect opportunity for tons of accompanying media. I still listen to some albums AS ALBUMS. I want information! I want to know everything, and I want pictures of it all too. You actually have to go to a different screen to even see the track progress. It’s less than 50% the experience it could be.

As a young lad, my all time favorite band was the legendary Hocus Pocus and their classic Focus. I would spend hours yodeling in school, at home or just in my yard. Then one day they came for me.

When my uncle passed he left me all his music because he loved to rock like I do, I had no idea what I would see, I ended up with two huge U-Haul storage boxes with 325 eight track tapes in them. From 69 to 81, some killer music. Those 8 tracks are still sitting in a empty room in the house in the boxes.

You can also add the creation of the IPod changed music purchases and the lack of album sales. It’s 99 cents for a song was more acceptable than filling your limited space then buying a cd or paying for album. Earbuds changed how people hear music and you have a private experience instead of blasting it on the stereo or in the car.

It's only getting worse. As Art of Guitar pointed out, his pupils went from knowing every track on an album, to knowing only some tracks, to knowing only one track, to asking to learn a random song they heard on Spotify and they can't even name the band, much less the musicians in the band.

One thing you can always count on is musicians getting screwed.

I'm an audiophile, a speaker designer and builder, and a music nut, and I'm shocked at 56 years old that the only places that I know to get CDs anymore is a used place about 2 miles away from my house called "2nd and Charles", then about a 40-minute drive from my house there is a second hand vinyl records and CD store, and finally places like Goodwill which I go to often. Best buy stop selling them probably three or four years ago and Target and Walmart I don't believe sell them anymore 🤔

I worked in the music/record business for six years - three years in the classic record & tape stores of the late 70's ('77, '78, '79) and then three years in distribution in the early 80's ('80, '81, '82). Who could have guessed that period would be the best time to work in the business before it eventually changed five years later with the onset of compact discs (CD's) along with the slow decline of both vinyl and cassette. 8-Tracks started leaving in the late 70's when cassettes started coming in at that same time, one listening format replacing the other, for use at home and in the car. For CD's, the analog-to-digital transfers couldn't expand fast enough, but they didn't sound good. When turned up, they were harsh on the ears when the dynamic range hit the wall. The first fully digital recording studio was Bear Tracks in Suffern, New York, owned by Spyro Gyra frontman, Jay Beckenstein. It took some time for all the other studios to re-gear into the digital age, but when mastered onto CD's (digital-to-digital) the sound was much better. But it still took years if not decades for re-masters to improve up to the quality they are today. CD's are still the most versatile listening format to use today for physical product. However, this is from the standpoint of being an original audiophile, where quality of sound matters. A generation or two of kids have little to no concern for such things, including their own favorite artists not getting a penny from all the music they've listened to for free, having no clue as to the end result.

We used to buy the first single and then the album when it came out!

Stu Sutcliffe was also a short term member of the Beatles.

I used to work in a Music shop. When I left it was still doing ok (1995). Then the local brick-and-mortar shops kept dissappearing and when the Czech legendary shop Indies closed in my home town, that was it.

It never fails to amaze me the amount of heat that Lars from Metallica got for trying to fight Napster and illegal downloading. All people saw was a rich dude trying to make money but were unable to see that he was already rich. He would be just fine. But the new artists that need every dime they can get aren’t making crap and end up quitting the business.

This surely has something to do with age. My 40 year old nephew would be able to name every member of the bands you didn’t know the names of. Probably wouldn’t do so well with the older bands-because those bands weren’t his passion. My 27 year old daughter could name every member of One Direction and all the bands who were from that era. My 16 year old could name the members of 21 pilots, AJR, etc. People know the bands they care about.

2000-2010 was the decade of music forums, and I was in a number of different metal band forums at the time. Many of the big selling rock bands might have become faceless on traditional media, but a lot of 15-25 years olds were talking about music all the time on those forums. We discussed different aspects of the songs on the albums as well as the musicians and their influences. A lot of my friends got into progressive rock bands other than the big names (Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Yes) through discussions on forums for the progressive death metal band Opeth. Steven Wilson was producing their albums in the early 2000s, and he proved to be a gateway to a lot of non-metal bands for us metalheads. Things changed after Facebook became big and forums started disappearing in the early 2000s. I still talk to a good number of people I met through those forums, but I haven't met anyone new to have such discussions since the forums lost their significance.

Fascinating interview Rick. I came of age in the late 1960's and 1970's in Boston, MA and I was into rock and prog rock back then and still am. As a teenager I was an avid listener of the old FM radio station WBCN in Boston, MA. They turned me on to some great rock and prog music not heard on mainstream radio back then. Like you, I read all the liner notes, fascinated by the musicians and who the recording engineers were, sometimes seeing the same engineers on different group's albums. Listening to early King Crimson in 1969-'70, I was so impressed with Gregg Lake's vocals with KC that it led me to becoming a life long fan of ELP.

Man I miss the good old days ! 👍

Wikipedia is where I go to see who wrote songs, produced albums, played on a song, etc. It's crazy that I used to know who Roy Thomas Baker or Mike Stone or Mutt Lange was. Now I know Rick Rubin and that's about it!

I was at Heathrow Airport to meet a friend arriving and The Strokes walked out of Immigration and no one else there knew who they were. It was their first visit to the UK.

The CD skip button was the start of listener's attention span. My 14 year old son barely listens to s whole entire song. He has probably never listened to an entire album. Reading about who is in the band and who was involved means nothing to teens now because it's drum machines and a keyboard. Who cares who programmed it? They just want a good song.

I still buy CDs sometimes to my collection and to support my favourite artists!

I owned Edgar Winter's They Only Come Out At Night for years before opening the fold and reading who was on the album. I was very surprised to learn Ronnie Montrose played guitar on that album.

As physical beings I think humans attach value to physical objects. Even a crappy/hissy sounding cassette copy of somebody brother's scratchy LP felt more real, more tangible, more valuable than an mp3.

Great conversation. Keep it up.

I kept so many music magazines back in the day. They were my go to internet before the internet for reference.

The two of you gel nicely together. Loved the content. Thank you both

The concept of the "filler tracks" was crucial to the full album demise. Both the industry and artists were guilty of it.

Up until mid 2018 I had a collection of 700+ vinyl LPs and over 300 CDs, including albums that I’d had since the early 70s. However, in mid 2018 I hit some financial difficulties and liquidated 600 of the LPs, something I wish I could undo in part, but now I’m going back to at least get the CD version of some of the truly memorable LPs. I completely identified with Rick keeping everything he’s bought. Great video, Rick!

I love these interviews with Jim Barber!!! So informative.

Im sure, this is my favourite musical/business channel ever, these videos are so good, quality over quantity

I'm a huge music nerd and I loved this! I'm also an old school guy that read the liner notes to every album, cassette, or vinyl I bought so I could know who every member of the band thanked and all the equipment they endorsed...it's all digital now, and that's ok but I miss those days😊 great interview fellas

I remember standing in line to buy 'that album' that was premiering at the music store on a particular day because I couldn't wait to hear it. Face to face interaction with complete strangers that through the music and details of a band you/we were not strangers at all. Common bond. I miss that big time. Around here I don't know where to even buy CDs. Yes I still buy CDs.. 😅

still collect cds for multiple reasons-no ads/internet, ownership, no edits/removal of songs, convenience, sound quality, gorgeous artwork, supporting the artist. New CDs are still cheap & good portable cd players on amazon are at reasonable prices.

Discogs is where I go to find the liner notes for bands (who played on them, who engineered, etc.). Wikipedia is where I go to find out the history behind WHY the album was created, or why the band put the album out.

Beatle fans know about Stu too.

I love your sit downs with Jim Barber. I learn so much.

Burned CDs is a major factor that doesn’t get talked about much in these conversations. More people had PCs and the speed got much faster by 2005. My band Taproot was on Atlantic Records, and we would do signings at record stores, and kids would literally bring burned CDs to the stores to have us sign them, which was not only offensive to the band but to the store. This was when I knew the revenue was definitely going to drop out of the music business.

I often found my favourite tracks on an album changed over time.

Studying vinyl LP sleeves was part of the process...

When the CD came out, the record companies hit the jackpot because they we’re basically re-selling what they’d already previously sold on vinyl. When the internet came along it was the same thing but in reverse. Record companies were totally caught out like you wouldn’t believe. They were so up their own back sides thinking the good times were never going to end. I ran record stores in the U.K. in the 80’s and 90’s and we thought the same to be honest but then … boom… it was all over. Closed the shops, now there’s very few independent record shops existing, most of them survive on second hand stuff. The few major chains left rely on T-shirts, magazines, books, headphones etc etc. The fun went out of buying music by 2000.

Beginning in the 90s, you could listen to the CD before you bought it. That allowed lesser known bands to attract listeners. That is how I discovered most of my world music. This process ended with the closure of major music chains.

Fascinating discussion about how these trends happen, more like this, please! About liner notes, Bandcamp allows bands to post liner notes, credits, and song lyrics. More bands should take advantage of that.

Every now and then at a garage sale or flea market I'll come across an old CD that still has the original price tag on it, and I'll shake my head in sheer amazement that people (including me) used to pay that much for an album.

I love conversations like this. More please!!

Don't forget how the iPod changed the way people listened to music in 2001 (and encouraging the Napster model). I still have a CD player in my car because I have so many CD's from back in the day that I still want to listen to.

The "Thick as a Brick" album was a newspaper! I read that thing 100 times I think. They also had some suggestive photos included so that might have been some of the attraction for a 13 year old boy.

I thought it was because I was getting old that I didn’t listen to music after the early to mid nineties. Now it all makes sense. There is good music out there but takes a long time to find it.

Great conversation gentlemen.

Great conversation as usual.

Discogs is also becoming a good source now for music credits...

Yo! Rick hit 4 mil subs! Congrats!

One thing not mentioned in all these comments is the down side of the enormous impact that Michael Jackson’s “Thriller” had. I remember the 1980 to 1982 period well because Rock as a whole was getting a much needed “shower” with new wave bands and others looking to the British Invasion 60’s for inspiration. Disco was on its way down after the excesses of 1979. But “Thriller”, as big as it was, brought MTV forward as the law in town, and every recording act had to play by the new rules. But the biggest part was that disco had returned in the form of Hip-Hop, leading to some acts that were truly lacking in the memorable department, sacrificing melody for rhythm, rhythm, rhythm. Add the “bottom line” mentality that is permanently embedded in the entertainment industry, and here we are. As for the internet, don’t forget said “industry” turned its back on Napster and fans having power to choose what they want. The point is; Greed ruled yesterday, Greed rules today, Greed will rule tomorrow. It won’t change.

The reason why people don't know the 'other' members of rock bands as much anymore is that the performance style that allowed guys like Jimmy Page or Keith Moon to shine in their own right went out of fashion. That's a whole other chapter where you'd have to talk about the impact of punk and the idea that everything needs to be 'accessible'. In the subgenres where virtuosity in performance is still valued, people DO know all the band members. Like Tool for example.

This was such an unbelievable discussion, thank you Rick!

I love these "in the weeds" discussions about the music biz and the history. Fascinating!

I still buy CD's today if I hear something I like. Even for older bands I buy used CD's just so I can own something physical, rather than just an MP3 file.

Excellent point about the unavailability of singles. I remember one song in particular: "Are You That Somebody" by Aaliyah. It wasn't available as a single, and if I recall correctly, it was even one of the songs that prompted Billboard to change the way they tabulated their Hot 100. But about that song - it wasn't even available on any of Aaliyah's albums. The only way you could acquire it legally was to buy the soundtrack album for the film Dr. Doolittle. That made me angry. So I felt absolutely no guilt over downloading the song via Napster. In my eyes they didn't lose any money, because I was never going to buy that soundtrack album anyway. Fast-forward a few years to when iTunes came out. I thought immediately that the best thing about iTunes wasn't that you could buy music from home (as cool as that was). The best thing about iTunes was that you could buy songs a la carte. No more having to lay down $19 if you only wanted 2 or 3 songs. I like CD's and I have a big collection, but I buy very few these days. I'm choosy with how I spend my money, and most of the time I don't find all 10 or 12 songs on the album to be worth it.

Well, two of my all time career-influencing bands were Alan Parsons Project and ELO. Back then (mid 70’s to mid 80’s), only the front guys were “known”, but early on we didn’t have a clue what they actually looked like. Pictures (not really videos) came later in their careers, but “looks” weren’t the money making secret for those guys (with all respect, though…). Sure, super-fans would know every name, but these bands were both mainly studio ‘projects’. Besides, numerous solo artists used various session players. They’d be Toto members, Nashville notorieties, Wrecking Crew (various), Hitsville or Sun people… We didn’t know what they looked like, not often their names - but we DID recognize their particular style and sound. Less “individual” focus, but definitely crystal clear identities… 👍

Awesome conversation!!! And yes, a lot of memories! I worked in the music industry from 1986 to 2003. I saw a lot of what you spoke about from the inside (I was at Epic when Pearl Jam vs. broke those soundscan records 😂)… My last incarnation in the business found me working for Miles Copeland from 2000 to late 2002. Back then, he had some very prophetic thoughts about the importance of band branding. He knew even then that music would help brand and the artists would make their living from publishing, touring, and merchandising…. I’d love to see you interview him!!!

Love the lighting in this.

Very informative Rick, thank you. Excellent guest too.

I love these conversations you have with Jim. They are always so interesting!

I did college radio in the mid 80s then played in local bands from the mid nineties to mid-2000s. In both eras I was struck by the large volume of tremendous songs and recordings that flew 100% under the radar, then just disappeared. I mean to the extent that the bands writing and producing these songs were often unsigned, usually self-promoted, and often short-lived. I found other stuff too, sometimes-like great demos of signed indie artists that never made it to their (limited) record catalogue. Some bands and artists had one great tune. Others had lots but no money, no good connections, no business sense, the wrong look, or they just burned out too fast. But what really struck me throughout those years was that the bands that did get attention, that did get signed, were often bland and vapid. After a while, I realized that I’d been cursed with an ear for good songs in an era where other things drove success. I developed a fantasy that “if I ever won the lottery,” I’d go around to markets around the US and do “field recordings” of this stuff the way John and Alan Lomax did in the Delta and other areas to capture great blues and folk music that would otherwise have been lost to history. Needless to say, I never won the lottery😂 But I’ll bet the great music is still out there, in dive bars, living rooms, and little clubs, blinking in and out of existence mostly unmarked while millions listen to the pre-packaged, homogenized garbage fed to them by the music industry.

Love the chats, could listen for hours.Good stuff-

The return of vinyl and cassette popularity with collectors has been a large part of why CD sales dropped during the 2010s onward. Regardless, while I do collect certain vinyl and cassettes, I still prefer (glass-mastered) CDs whenever possible.

These are the conversations I absolutely love! Keep up the great work!

I really enjoy these conversations with Jim. I’d love to see more!! 🙌🏻😁

In 2000 I had worked for BMG for 8 years and we got a platinum and mirrored award from the company as a "thank you" for sales (we had like 8 of the 10 largest selling albums that year - Backstreet Boys, Nsync, Santana, Dave Matthews, etc). The next year our sales took a plumet and I had the option of going to 3rd shift (which I couldn't do) or taking a layoff package. I still have the award as a reminder of how quickly fortunes can change.

Great interview. As someone who was working overseas while this was going on, it connects a lot of dots👍