Rock Exotica Totem vs Camp Ovo vs Butterfly Knot

Рет қаралды 70,690

2 жыл бұрын

THIS IS VIDEO 3 OF 10 - See textbook 👉 www.hownot2.com/post/canyon-r...
Here is a free course featuring Brent Roth about different ways to set up rappels through a canyon. This considers ease of rigging, abrasion, ease of rescue and how efficient it is to move people through the canyon.
Episodes 1-5 show the systems,
Episode 6 shows how it can all be done with 1 device,
Episodes 7-8 are friction tests,
Episodes 9-10 are break tests of the hardware and the knot blocks.
All the episodes are in the textbook
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Introduction
01:14 - Setting up the twin system
03:30 - The twin rope isolated static system
06:07 - Drawbacks of this system
09:29 - The twin rope isolated releasable system
12:48 - Why this system is superior in rescue operation
14:18 -About the Textbook
15:20 - Stitch blade device
20:24 - Alternatives if one does not know the twin system
22:02 - Another version of Camp ovo totem
24:30 - Flack against Joker’s simple
29:32 - Test time for Ryan
33:06 - Tying the knot the right way
36:45 - Testing the rappel
38:56 - Outro

Пікірлер: 109

@HowNOT2 2 жыл бұрын

TEXTBOOK: www.hownot2.com/post/canyon-rope-systems & Check out our canyon designs on www.hownot2swag.com Check out our new store! hownot2.store/

@m.agilnajib345 2 жыл бұрын

Why am I even watching this. I never do outdoor activities, let alone climbing, just an average joe with a desk job. But this is fun stuff, 10 minutes in and i thought its explained really well, I think I'll stick around.

@alexvalladares1070 2 жыл бұрын

Go to a climbing gym you should get into the sport!

@AZDesertExplorer 2 жыл бұрын

Get in to it! Super rewarding hobby.

@sp10sn 2 жыл бұрын

The real question is why are you at your desk and following along with a shoelace line on paperclip anchors?

@LOLLOF90 2 жыл бұрын

I find it helps me understanding Systems, physic, and problem solving that I many use somewhere else. Plus even if 90% of man can't tie knots properly, I can guarantee we all have at least a knot book at home that we go through at least once a year.. ropes and knots are somehow porn for our brains .

@daviddroescher 2 жыл бұрын

It's OK you are the typical customer for a guide service

@uploadsnstuff8902 11 ай бұрын

The level of expertise and quality of knowledge going around in this video is absolutely mind bending. The number of situations and years of experience that leads to that kind of discussion can't be emphasized enough. Thanks a lot for making this kind of videos.

@davidsnaz 2 жыл бұрын

Excellent method of tying the Alpine butterfly. This turns it into a process of muscle memory instead of having to see what's happening with each step.

@mattbaker1683 2 жыл бұрын

Awesome guys, thanks. I really like the way that butterfly is tied, gotta find the timestamp and go practice that one. 3:40 for the first example 33:06 for the slowed down explanation

@honorharrington4546 2 жыл бұрын

This is the first video of yours I have watched. From an outsiders, non climbers viewpoint I was able to follow the lesson and understand the whys and hows. The only point I had trouble with was Releasable. I was thinking releasable as in 'able to recover the rope from the ground' rather than 'able to let out rope to reduce chafing'. Once I realized that the last man would re-rig to descend without leaving hardware behind it all made sense. I imagine those hardware pieces are expensive. Kudos to you all for giving to your community and helping to ensure everyone has a safe and enjoyable adventure!

@TheRopeAccessChannel 2 жыл бұрын

This is so good! The amount of information and knowledge shared in only this video is great! The whole serie is going to be awesome! If you understand the principles you can create your own methods. Exactly the way I like to teach my rope access courses! Principles over methods👍🏼👍🏼

@whitewaterpirate 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, man! My thoughts exactly. Know capabilities and limitations and you can do more with less. A true technician.

@davidsnaz 2 жыл бұрын

@@whitewaterpirate A perfect example is that of the BAB in place of the stone knot. It's a great option that reduces necessary hardware.

@andyboheler8208 2 жыл бұрын

I have loved the videos and the camp stitch plate for years now very versatile ,cheap, and lightweight. Keep up the great work, you have a great team!!!

@pacodelaguardia2362 2 жыл бұрын

Dude this is all i've been studying but on a single video explanation, awesome content!

@medpacsherpa Жыл бұрын

I have been a fly on the wall for a few of your videos. I love them. But this was the first of the canyoning videos that I ran into. Great video. Scared the s... Out of me. As a low level ice climber the systems just hit me in the face. I could see the use, and realise when I should have used it. Thank you for the video, I will hunt for the rest of the series

@jonflannery8984 2 жыл бұрын

There’s a double twist, tuck the loop thru/between the twists to tie that ABK. As I understand it that knot is a little more Omni-directional in terms of how you can load the loop and strands. Sweet content guys thanks for sharing this series.

@STRsteve Жыл бұрын

Brent needs his own channel. I'll watch whatever he puts out there.

@jacktrussler20 2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely in love with this "corset" learning so much and it's as entertaining as I'd expect from such great personalities :)

@honorharrington4546 2 жыл бұрын

That should be "course-ett". :)

@POVdoing 4 ай бұрын

Awesome vid. These help at work

@DingleFlop 2 жыл бұрын

That blue thing is really cool!

@RadDadisRad 2 жыл бұрын

I watched this whole video. This is very informative.

@jeremyogrizovich3247 2 жыл бұрын

This channel rocks hard, thanks

@jameshuntsman6046 2 жыл бұрын

I spent most of my adult life climbing, did a few canyoneering excursions. A climbing friend and I did a canyoneering thing in Zion called mystery canyon. At the end we rode the Zion shuttle back to our car. I looked at him and said that felt weird, it was like doing the decent with out actually doing the climb. To fix this problem we quickly went up the road and climbed a 3 pitch route called headache above the Zion tunnel. Saved us from total melt down.

@cXilion 2 жыл бұрын

this is great! thx for this!

@maxpetermann5355 2 жыл бұрын

Awsome Stuff!!!

@shoqed 2 жыл бұрын

How not 2: 1. Build a drop tower 2. Don't use the drop tower

@whitewaterpirate 2 жыл бұрын

😂🤣😂 My wall is better.

@AZDesertExplorer 2 жыл бұрын

LOVE my Totem, no plans on getting a tattoo of it though. Lol

@richardsmith9918 Ай бұрын

Great skill

@RobertTadlock 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

@alextemus 2 жыл бұрын

I mean, the joker simple seems terrible (24:45), if you have 1 figure 8, just use the figure 8 block - where the two bights of the rope go through the larger 8 opening from opposite directions (it was used in the video where both bights come through the same direction)... I've used that a hundred times and had to release it while weighted about a dozen times and it always works. Super simple to inspect, basically impossible to do incorrectly.

@J-Rbs 2 жыл бұрын

We use it in France but not as a releasable systeme (Releasable mean "to give slack" correct?) We also use something call "huit à l'italienne" italian eight" both of ropes are blocked with this technique

@PeterDrinnan 2 жыл бұрын

I always put a stopper knot in the end of my ropes, even when not needed as a good habit. Good habits may save me some time if I get distracted.

@dunklezwiebel 2 жыл бұрын

Stopper knots in a canyon could cause you to drown

@whitewaterpirate 2 жыл бұрын

You must always conciddier the biggest envronmental threat. In rappelling in a waterfall, its drowning on a rope. Always and Never is a good place to start, but not always the best place to stay. 😉

@cjwaasdorp2478 Жыл бұрын

33:06 is the best alpine butterfly. Mind blown. Never going to tie it the other ways again. Might need to clip that as a dedicated short...

@that_kca Жыл бұрын

This is the best video due to the star at the start 🐈‍⬛

@linzh2753 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much for the effort and free courses yout put up! I know it isn't relavant to this video, but I really would like to know the feeling you get whilest on a rope swing. Is it the same feeling as a stomach drop you feel on a rollar coaster? Is it the same feeling as skydiving? Thanks for the answer, and thank you so much for all the great content!

@HowNOT2 2 жыл бұрын

it's more than a roller coaster because you fall further and more than a skydive because you start at 0mph when you jump as opposed to already moving. it's pretty fun

@thomasthurnher 2 жыл бұрын

Danke!

@420jahlion 2 жыл бұрын

a figure 8 on an anchor can get really tight from loading just on rappel. for a dual static rappel or solo ascender climbing i would use a double loop figure 8 very ez and fast to tie and wont load.

@blazeweaver7467 Жыл бұрын

OK, the joker is releasable, which means I can pull my rope out when I get down. But I'd be leaving 2-8's 4 biners and a sling at the anchor? Is this just to send the group so you could lower/rescue the less experienced? Then you'd clean all the gear and rap down... answered my own question, you've definitely got me thinking...

@truthlies9708 2 жыл бұрын

Let’s go totem! I use it for tree climbing, maybe because I’m east coast 😬

@greatorangesky 2 жыл бұрын

Tree access knowledge would go so far here

@jaapiegoedhart2904 2 жыл бұрын

12:00 xor gate (exclusive or) in stead of or gate.

@whitewaterpirate 2 жыл бұрын

😂 thanks.

@user-fs5bg1xj8t 2 жыл бұрын

How have you never seen that plate! 😂

@mikess308 2 жыл бұрын

Maybe i missed it, If youre putting 2 people down a twin system, when/why wouldnt you want to always isolate the systems?

@guywittig5069 2 жыл бұрын

FYI: We have found that using an ATC in guide mode works better than a GiGi because it is less prone to slipping.

@AdamEdington 2 жыл бұрын

I've seen a hope knot on the rockface, tied by someone who should have known better, fffffructose!

@markus717 Жыл бұрын

At 5:45 he converts the twin line into a "static block" with a 'biner. Is that what the hitch is called?

@josephliberatore5458 Жыл бұрын

Kong oka and hydro bot all the way!

@jonathanazbell9596 2 жыл бұрын

Could you do an Eight Munter Overhand with the Totem in order to carry less gear?

@williamgrizzle8480 2 жыл бұрын

just here for to boost the algorithm.

@AdamEdington 2 жыл бұрын

How to measure signal voltage, put a standard weight on the loaded line, then have a draining bucket of water on the signal line

@tubecat101 2 жыл бұрын

If you are repelling to the ground and the ends are on the ground what a knot in the end of the rope going to do?😂😊

@salimufari 2 жыл бұрын

33:30 This is the only way I've every known to tie a butterfly. (take a bite, full twist & feed the bite through the cross) Single or double line. The whole 3 wraps around your hand & braid method always seemed so cumbersome to me.

@onelastcast03 2 жыл бұрын

I just love how you say "you have to have a brain". Common sense is not that common. LOL! I love this.

@daviddroescher 2 жыл бұрын

If common sense where the plague, far too many would survive by means of natural immunity.

@squatch2461 Жыл бұрын

🍻

@leonardocera3092 2 жыл бұрын

Can you do a drop test on a petzl micro traxion and a ct rollnlock?

@mountainmandoug 2 жыл бұрын

And can you do with multiple ropes? The results will differ with ropes of different sheaths.

@HochstartHarry 9 ай бұрын

In saxon sandstone you never tie the ends. Risk of getting your rope stuck in a multipitch tower is much greater than abseiling of the end. On my first tower i tied the ends and promptly on the first abseil it got stuck 15m below the next stand, it took me 1.2h to get it unstuck from the ledge i was on. Now i simply pay 105% attention when abseiling and then give the followers a firemans belay.

@wallanwallan658 2 жыл бұрын

Around 8:30, Ryan poses a very good question about why it doesn’t seem standard to tie knots in the end of the rope or use a backup for dry canyons without a swimming release, and I don’t feel Brent answered the question. Can you help clarify if I missed something? Even if the rap station manager verifies the rope touches the ground, why is it still not still standard practice to use a third hand backup when there is no risk of drowning on the rappel, as in a dry canyon?

@daviddroescher 2 жыл бұрын

For dry landings tie the knot was the answer given. It isOnly skipped for wet/swimming landings.

@therflash 2 жыл бұрын

That was explained in their canyoning video, you don't want to get tangled in your ropes underwater while desperately trying to unclip, so you intentionally rap off the ends just above the water. Only applies when rappeling into water, on a solid ground, tie a knot.

@HowNOT2 2 жыл бұрын

@@therflash yup, what you said

@waynegriswold8953 2 жыл бұрын

SRT= stationary rope technique , DRT double rope technique , DdRT Doubled rope technique . just saying this to me makes the most since

@haydenivey8448 2 жыл бұрын

The other danger of the knot on the end of the rope: once you get down and you pull your whole rope through the quick link at the anchor, the end of the rope doesn’t pass through the quick link because you forgot you tied a knot in it. Your rope is stuck and you can’t ascend it. You have no rope for the rest of the canyon and you freeze to death in the night. Much bigger risk than falling off the end of your rope IMO

@J-Rbs 2 жыл бұрын

I'm in trouble to untie Butterfly Knot when it is to much load Any techniques to avoid this ? (Maybe with a biner ?) I'm from France sorry for my english, I understand more than i speak. By the way, what a great Job!

@WildOnThriller 2 жыл бұрын

You can try a stone knot. Isolates both strands for simultaneous rapelling and easy to untie once the carabiner is removed. It is not releaseable/lowerable though (same as butterfly) kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qt-KqLWc3NHeoZ8.html

@MichaelBylehn 2 жыл бұрын

Nice guys. You got me with the clickbait preview image. 40mins video with no index or quick mention of what was mentioned in the clickbait. So I'd have to commit to be ready to watch 40mins simply for the curiosity of what...item I suppose? or knot? (hence why I'm curious) is banned. So take your victory as I leave this page frustrated.

@whitewaterpirate 2 жыл бұрын

24:32 stars the “clickbait“ discussion that is 4 minutes long. Since this video is about systems I would recommend, I start and end with those systems. Thanks for watching.

@b.griffin317 2 жыл бұрын

The only thing I learned from this video is a new way to make a butterfly knot.

@4wardlobster 2 жыл бұрын

Not yet to the totem part, I’m a SW canyon guide ACE certified. Have my IRATA/Sprat level 1 from Rig las vegas. I was taught the joker and instead of a totem was shown how to set up twin releasables using an ATS called it the jester. Bit easier to visually inspect than the Joker, and it requires less hardware. Is there a reason this isn’t being included? Will stay tuned to find out why the totem is illegal based on thumbnail, but I’ve had no issues. Keeping weight and systems light and simple.

@whitewaterpirate 2 жыл бұрын

I have love for the TOTEM, but I can only cover so much (See Totem @ 28:25 and the text book). The Totem is not what was "outlawed" in Europe, the Joker Simple is what was advised agenst using.

@4wardlobster 2 жыл бұрын

@@whitewaterpirate got some extra time following up after finishing the video. I’ve always called it the jested but I rig it differently on a totem and an ATS. It is the same as the belay plate on the totem but I use an additional carabiner and threads each side of the bite in opposite directions. The carabiners are placed on opposite sides of the belay plate so you need extra hardware but it is still releasable, you just remove a carabiner opposite the side to release it! The extra bends mean that thing won’t budge, would love to see it pull tested.

@pieterveenders9793 Жыл бұрын

@@whitewaterpirate That thumbnail was definitely clickbaity. First of all Europe is a continent, not a country, and as such "Europe" can't outlaw anything because it's not a single country. Although it's not the same thing as Europe and not a single country either, the EU could potentially outlaw something as it does create legislature, however it has never produced any legislative bans when it comes to climbing or belaying/abseiling techniques either. Hence neither "Europe" nor the EU has banned it.

@catherinebugden 2 жыл бұрын

Locking carabiners, you definitely don’t need two. Makes me think a climber converting their techniques and gear for canyoning but ok I’ll admit it doesn’t necessarily hurt.

@whitewaterpirate 2 жыл бұрын

Hmmm, not sure which ones you are referring to, but if it's two lockers for the backup draw, watch this... kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pshggbebncDVhHU.html You could get away with one, but way risk it? Non-lockers have there place in canyoning, just not in rigging systems.

@catherinebugden 2 жыл бұрын

@@whitewaterpirate I’m referring to the ones your using in the video. I know PNW is a bit different than Sandstone canyons as we use a lot of bolted Anchors with webbing. I was more wondering if you really do use the locking Carabiner quick Draws that much or it was more for a an anchor replacement for the video?

@whitewaterpirate 2 жыл бұрын

@@catherinebugden Now I understand. The setup I have with the CAMP OVO and sling I keep together. I use it for 'linked' and 'un-linked' bolts.

@whitewaterpirate 2 жыл бұрын

Linked bolts are permanatly connected to provide redundancy. Like the chain anchor you see me using in the video. In that case I'm clipping both carabiners to the ring just to keep my system together. Simply gear management. Webbing and quicklink is rigged the same as a linked, although usually not redundant. Un-linked bolts are two separate hangers or rings that need to be 'linked' by the anchor manager to provide redundancy (You can see it on the wall @ 14:20). In this case my sling is the link and I clip each ring with a locker. The OVO is girth-hitched to make "equalization" adjustments easy.

@randyreese6413 2 жыл бұрын

I was a canyoning guide in Japan for six years and love what you guys are doing here, but have a serious issue with what I've seen. One of the first things they teach you in training to be a canyoning guide is to ALWAYS clip in from behind. Mr. Roth repeatedly clips in from the front with the gate to his carabiner facing the wall; that’s a death move in canyoning. Your moving and rubbing against the rock can cause your carabiner gate to come open regardless of the gate type, the carabiner can then come unclipped and you will have a very unfortunate fall. I have seen it happen with my own eyes. Even for expediency’s sake in a video like this he should never clip in from the front as it sets a bad example. It’s very clear at 39:34

@whitewaterpirate 2 жыл бұрын

I completely agree with you that the carabiner gates should not be against the rock. In some of these rigging systems the carabiner rotation is not clear until the system is loaded. I think the assumption you are making from one video is a bit harsh. I can only find one example that looks off and that system is particularly awkward but it is very clear that 39:34 is the end of the video so I'm not sure what you saw.

@cjwaasdorp2478 2 жыл бұрын

Actually, clipping from the rear leaves your screw gate locked in the up position which allows it to slowly wiggle downward when it is jiggle back and forth. It is generally recommended to click from the front, then rotate it so that your screw gate locks downward. This is taught as "screw down so you don't screw up". In the case of the videos, your argument is moot because he does not clip into a fixed bolt hanger, he clips into a ring that is perpendicular which means all of the carabiners are sideways regardless of which way you put them in. Also, your link does not go to any place in the video, it goes to the end.

@randyreese6413 2 жыл бұрын

@CJ Waasdorp That's only if you're clipping in your carabiner to build a system or hang a bag and you're using an unattached work carabiner. When you clip in your own anchor you always clip in from behind so 1. You can always see your gate is closed, 2. Clipping in from the front and flipping over your carabiner on your anchor the way you are saying would force you to move your anchor loop over the coarse gate knob over and over and damage the rope, possibly causing it to break at a very unfortunate time. 3. Clipping in from the front and flipping over your carabiner on your anchor the way you are saying would also make it impossible to quickly unhook your carabiner in situations where you may have your entire body weight on the anchor and it's carabiner and need to get off quickly.

@cjwaasdorp2478 2 жыл бұрын

@@randyreese6413 if you clip from the front and rotate, you can see your gate as it is no longer against the rock. It's the same as clipping from behind except the carabiner is upside down so that the gate moves downward. Also, when you rotate it, rotate it so that the gear runs along the spine, there's no reason you would run it across the gate screw. And it's just as easy to get out of as your gate is facing outward. This is all context specific though so perhaps we're talking different contexts (I'll be honest, based on your descriptions I'm having a hard time following). I think it's all moot because he's generally clipping hard goods at a perpendicular to the face (e.g. ring) which leaves the biner parallel or he's clipping to freely rotating pieces. And he has lockers that are not screw gate so the discussion is moot.

@randyreese6413 2 жыл бұрын

@@cjwaasdorp2478 I'm having a hard time following how you could clip in a carabiner tied to an anchor into a ring from the front without rinning your loop accross the gate knob, unless you take the rope off, clip on your carabiner from the front, then reattach your rope, which completely defeats the purpose of having a carabiner on your anchor to begin with. Again, you are describing the use of unattached working carabiners, I am talking about attached carabiners such as your anchor or quickdraw.

@GoodLuck-rh8tb 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for this. I think the flow chart is suboptimal and not quite logical. Both isolated and compound systems have static versions and releasable versions. But they are of course separate categories, resulting in 4 instead of 2 categories of twin rope systems. I think it would be better to separate these in the graphics. The way it is done can be a little bit confusing.

@whitewaterpirate 2 жыл бұрын

But its soo compact. 😂