i dont play mvc2 so when i saw the title of this vid i thought this was a tier list based on how well they'd ratio someone on twitter

0 cost always has utility. This is something I learned from Hearthstone.

I normally hate tier lists but I LOVE how you framed it in such a way that it's more about the value proposition of the character within the meta itself and not just "This character beats X". Great work Jim. Love your videos.

I remember Waaaaaay back in the day when I first saw this game as a kid I was utterly in love with Amingo. His design was just, still is to be honest, one of the most fun and interesting I'd seen in a fighting game character. You'd still be hard pressed to find another character like him. He's just fun, I've always had a soft spot for him. So of course imagine the sadness upon first learning he's garbo in this game. Seeing him in a top tier makes me beyond happy and validates the worth of this system even if it does require future tweaking and such. (And yea I know this is only one video and one set of opinions but honestly seeing that funky cactus man anywhere other than the celler is just... chefs kiss).

Jin has an X-Factor if he's the only member of your team left so he's a nasty anchor because his stray normals become monstrous and it doesn't take long to pull big damage with him.

Yea, I love the idea of this tier list, because it'd be fascinating to see a system where characters on the top and bottom get their points rebalanced for "seasons" of competitive MVC2. Sure, there might be some characters that become super high tier for their point cost for a season, but it keeps things fresh. Bumping Jugg and Ice up to 4, while dropping Dan and Servebot down to 0 would already make huge changes to many people's team comps.

This system is genius, it gives more use to the lower tier characters. Always seeing the top ones became too boring, always the same teams...

Seeing the roster explored this way is an interesting expose of just how many characters are tiered as highly as they are 100% because of their synergy with the top tiers, and how once pairing with storm or magneto is no longer mathematically possible their viability bottoms out, commando being the biggest example

Would be cool to see you and Jwong make some content explaining each character and their archetypes and what kind of characters they would pair with. With the influx of players getting into MVC2 now it would be great to see more introductory info about it

The character artwork for this game is still amazing 👏

I’ve been hoping one of the MVC2 content creators would make this. Been having trouble building a team for so long

Dhalsim can get a life lead and simply teleport on the top of the screen where many characters can't ever hit him and get a time over. And with ratios using weaker characters he could really abuse it. He has to be 4 points.

This was a great idea. I was hoping someone would make exactly this tier list.

Enjoyed the MvC2 content in YT for months now from all the different creators and this made me want to learn Marvel again, hopefully we have an MvC2 tourney here where I live too, though I have to stick to the mall for now since I don't have a PC for months as well even if it's on low damage setting.

This is actually mad helpful when constructing a ratio team. This content is needed lol

I'm excited to see how JWong rebalances the points in the future! One idea i had was that these points assume you pick a character's "best" or "broken" assist in many cases (e.g. TBone, CapCom) so how about make the points determined by the assist you pick? Like some characters would be the same point cost with all 3 assists, but others would cost less if you picked one of the not-broken assists. Suddenly CapCom is 1 or 2 points for people who just like the character and want them on their low-tier team and don't mine using a "bad" assist.

you should definitely make an updated version of this! would be great content and very useful to new players

You made a tier list based on numbers that were added from a tier list. Lmao it’s awesome you made this. I would like to see what changes Justin would do to the tier list.

Great approach to revaluate some characters that were forgotten because everybody had focused on playing with top tiers. Now you see more variety of characters and strategic gameplay that make this game a lot more fun.

Just want to say serious respect to you for just examining MvC2 into detail. You have a ton of fantastic content on this nostalgic classic and it's simply amazing to see a break-down analysis of the characters like this. It takes a lot of time and energy to really figure out all the details and nuances of the characters. Good on you! Noobs will understand how to get into this game without having to read a crappy one-dimensional user guide.

Never played before but I'm gonna imagine my team is gambit, roll, and probably sentinel. Actually gonna find how to set up the ratio version I remember reading about something being made that displayed the numbers in game. Great stuff as always. Making me wanna play yet another fighter after work.

I love the idea of ratio and wish there was something like this on other old games that suffer from balance problems, like KoF/CvS, those would be cool. That being said I may be wrong here but I feel this system still needs some adjustments, like raising the total points so you can make the difference between character points bigger (so it would be technically a nerf for some and a buff for others all together)

when i see MVC2 roll. I KNOW ITS GONNA BE A GOOD VIDEO

just wanted to drop a line somewhere to tell you thanks for covering this game so much. i use your videos while labbing and they are a godsend. this game has so much obscure stuff in it that trying to jump in to competitive play is really daunting/impossibly obscured. but it seems the only thing i'm interested in lately is old fighting games and mvc2 is the game i want to be able to pick up at any time and throw big combos. your channel, more than any other, has helped level up my game and i really appreciate it. well done, bro, keep them coming.

I made my team on the Yipes ratio tier list; and suddenly Justin wong adds a point to every single one of my characters LOL

thanks!! lf more umvc2 content with low/mid tier (would love to see some unexpected teams :D )

looks like maybe the ratio format could benefit from the top tiers costing maybe 6 with a couple still maybe at 5 and the total cost going up to 8. Just an idea given you basically had almost all the 4 cost characters at pretty low. I think this would put less of a crunch on 4 cost characters.

Man i love my man dan, its my favorite SF character and i like to use him on teams for fun (Even if i am bad) but the one point is just too harsh, i know why wong did not put him on the same block as roll but i really wish he was there

I think the main problem with the 7 point limit is that a single point makes a huge difference, and there ends up being characters who aren't worth it at 4 points, but would be busted at 3. There's not a lot of room for nuance, and idk why it's 7 points to begin with haha

Rollin down the tier list in my Katamari

Justin said when he updates the ratio list, Cap will be 2 or 3 points.

I think one thing that would be cool for the ratio format, even if it would complicate things, is to have characters cost different amounts of points depending on the assist you pick. For some characters this wouldn’t change much, all three magnetos should be worth 5 points for example. But I feel like commando with projectile assist would be a one point character and that would let people who want to play commando as a point character or experiment with his other assists use him without massively handicapping themselves. Same for other assist characters like Tron-Bon, psylocke or cyclops. Even characters like doom or sentinel (okay probably not sentinel) might be okay being worth one less point with their worst assist option.

Would be cool to make a video going over some good team comps based on this tier list.

Therapist: Super Saiyan Rose JMCrofts doesn't exist, he can't hurt you Super Saiyan Rose JMCrofts:

It's so unfortunate that Shuma doesn't have any reliable BNB's into super without assists because his level 3 is sick and shreds health bars, but it's so hard to land solo, and despite a 1 frame normal he's not great on point

This helped me decide on who to plug into Megaman + Ken. Since MM and Ken don't really rely on supers, Dark Sakura anchor would be extremely easy to pull off

Love your MvC2 content

Watching ur videos made me wanna play this game. Never really gotten into it when i was young cuz i was really young when the game came out but it is a classic and a really fun game to play

Would Dan and Servbot find a second life if they fell to the 0 point category?

Just checking to see what the team I chose would end up as and the best tier on my team is BB Hood and each other character goes down a tier Boy, do I have a knack to choosing low tiers, but we will see if I can make it work

I would love to see this point system in Evo.

Great advice! I would spam every two top tier characters and the zero point character.

Team I usually run is Juggernaut/Felicia/B.B.Hood or Juggernaut/Felicia/Anakaris. Felicia is my mascot, B.B.Hood/Anakaris are my work horses and Juggernaut is, well, we all know why he's there. Might look into Gambit, I did play him back in the day before I even knew what 'scrub' meant outside of cleaning and hospitals

Is it bad that when he described what the ratio game mode was the first thing that came to my mind was that vs mode in Tenkaichi 3 with the dragon points?

its like mvc2 year 1 all over again! Its insane to see ppl go through the discovering pains and think a character is broken or good and not know the countermeasures/strats/weaknesses developed over time. I remember very clearly when Spiral was Ivan Ooze reincarnated, Juggernaut and Iceman were "broken". And folks didnt know how to play storm/mag/sent (and still dont apparently) so they were mid tier. Its good youll get learn the why behind characters

I haven't played in months (vet of the game though), and I feel like my theory team (for Ratio) of Shuma, Strider, Akuma (i.e. 3 characters you have at the bottom of your Ratio tier list) could clean up.

Its crazy how much a single point value seems like it pushes a characters viability up or down in this format. Seems like it could probably use some tuning, but maybe using half points or doubling the points overall(so 14 point teams) then adjusting various characters as appropriate.

Have you considered using captain commando on a 4-3-0 team? Idk much about marvel 2 but I thought ab that

i feel its telling that even using the ratios, the clear definitive best are still unquestionably MSS, and unfortunate that using a 4 point character is such a compromise that they are barely used. would this system benefit from another tier with MSS costing 6 points and a team totalling 8 points altogether? more points enable MSS too much but if they cost 6 maybe it could be done

I am ignorant, but from where the points value come, and how is used? I believe came from a competitive tournament trying to avoid 15 point team, and set with 10 points or so

do you know any good teams centered around doctor doom?

Have you done a CapVSNK2 tier list?

Now we just need a ratio ratio rule set where you're restricted to 7 points but also can only have 1 character from any given tier of jmcrofts ratio tier list. Then we'll get Maximilian to do a ratio ratio tier list and from that we'll get our ratio ratio ratio ruleset....

So would Gambit, Ice man, Ken(anti air) be considered a good team?

That thumbnail gonna be in my nightmares tonight

the thumbnail alone made me watch this. Amazing video nonetheless

Can you remake this for the 2.0 list?

Agree with all the kinda broken character picks with the exception of Storm. Without America's favorite dhc and various cheesy assists she doesn't justify giving up 5 points unless you have an absolutely stupid Storm like Khaos. I consider her the best character in the game but she's not as much of a one (wo)man army as Sent and Mags. EDIT: Thinking about it, she absolutely should be 5 points, for the simple fact that very few if any mid to low tier characters can do anything about her runaway. Jump to the top of the screen, float, lightning attack to reset air position, high priority normals to challenge anyone who dares challenge her air superiority, yeah she's a 5 pointer.

Who has the better roster? Mvc2 or ulimate/infinite mvc3? I'm leaning towards 2.

Would be kinda interesting to see a licensed Vs. game built around a ratio system; you could do more lore friendly character designs by making deliberately overpowered/underpowered characters but balance them out with their points cost.

Somebody send this to JWong and see what he thinks of it!

Still working on BB Hood. Gotta be able to make her work for me. She is just too funny to put down. I'm finding myself at this point just trying to avoid jumping and get my ground game right.

I haven't tried mvc2 yet, but if I did I was thinking of playing ruby heart and gambit, wasn't sure of the last one. I feel called out.

you know how like calculus has derivatives which are basically like slopes of slopes? for some reason this tier list reminds me of that concept.

Hi, I think this concept is amazing! Wouldn't it be cool if an upstart fighting game attempted to balance around this? This character is '4 points' but is very powerful however this is a utility character for 2. very nice balance idea. i know skullgirls has something similar with single chars being stronger than teams but, this could be different in a fun way.

Jmcrofts explaining to me how X characters anti air assist is “quite good”

I love using ratios. But I also love low tier fights. I find them a bit more entertaining.

Do you think any of the values could be tweaked?

jm u needa take logan to the studio, especially metal claw. the mix is there. instant overhead to drill claw / crossunder with cr. rh, air rave shenanigans

As a Spiral specialist I am offended to to see her under so many meh characters, but for ratios I guess it makes sense. I tend to use Spiral/BBHood/(anyone usually a 3 or above as anchor) and if I’m dealing with a tough player I swap BBHood with Doom and rocks assist. But Spiral can do some crazy shit, as long as it’s not Sentinal and sometimes Storm or Magneto. She kills Cable pretty easy if you know how to use her

In Gotcha Borg, a Normal Ninja cost 150. The enemy borgs cost around anywhere from 60 to 150. Your main character is around 350. Even if their hp and defense is trash, long as you can build an army that you can avoid attacks and dig in to deal damage, your tiny weak army might win against their heavy cost, or in mvc2 mid cost teams.

Godly thumbnail

jmcroft: Justin wong, I would love to see you do a tier list! Justin Wong: bitch I already did

Maybe if Dan and Servbot lower point to 0 like Roll then they will have their place in above tier for build a team.

Nice video. I think some characters should probably be rerated, such as Sent/Storm/Mags at 6, and Dan/Servbot at 0. I also think each assist should be rated separately where applicable (such as Commando).

Does a 7 point limit tier list exist for mvc3? I'd be curious to see how teams can be balanced in mvc3.

Not the mighty Roll 😱 She’s a true terror.

Psylocke is a good point character in Ratios, she has triple jumps and plenty of solo and assist helped combos. Also, I think there's more arguments for 4,3,0 right now then 4,2,1. With 4,3,0 you also get Juggernaut or Silver Sam or whatever you want! Also are you read up on Shuma+Iron Man? There's a bit of synergy there actually if you wanted to explore either character.

Hmm should storm sent mags be 6?

When building a team you need to also consider the counter picks. IE BBHood hunters ult vs your average characters do garbage but compare that to landing it on Hulk, Sentinal or any other large / very large targets it can all but one shot them. Especially if landed against a standing assist character before they hop out. So putting the point max system aside my Top team was Black Heart opener or first swap in on combo confirm with Sentinal as a starter & as my 3rd it was either Omega Red, Doom or Silver Samurai. My combo was if able get the Air juggle Sentinal into air super then Black Heart's meteor ult into his standing RHC ult into any of the 3rd champ's aoe ult. With some good button mashing your last ult can do NUTTY damage. I used to scrimmage vs a competitive player who mained Ryu, Juggernaut Tron Bon. I won usually 1 in 3 on average. As for your list I would take Captain America over Cyclops ANY day especially as a Shoto style character.

Theres a way to balance this even more. For example charging 6 might be too much for top tiers but they should be 5.5 perhaps. So the idea to balance this is, double the points of all, then some +1 some -1. But to make it the most balanced we would x5 everything, then add +4 to the busted ones +3 priority +2 value +1 decent. So you would have a team to make with 35 points, sentinel cost 29, dan cost 5 roll costs 0 wolverine costs 6 megaman costs 18 etc. But could prolly bump up the points to 36-38 and it'd be better. If done right all characters would be proportionally even to pick eventually relative to their cost, making all characters viable. 37 points would probably be best as its the midpoint of the +4 added to the 7x5.

It would be cool if they doubled all costs and your total to 14 so they could have deeper balance.

Trying to wrap my head around this points thing. Some of em I can see but omega red is 3 points but Cammie is 4?

Great list. Like to soon Justin take a look at this and respond. Also makes potentially adjusting some point values around worthwhile. Perhaps Dan and Servebot should be Zeros. Perhaps make it an 8 point system and move Sentinel, Magneto, Storm up to 6. Perhaps 4 and 5 pt characters that are near the bottom could be dropped a point. Great work.

if you land shuma's eyes, its a guarantee landed super

What’s DHC??

I actually have Dan cause of him being zero points in the latest one I saw by J. Wong, haha. Very fun character

Nice list. Roll near the top its pretty funny lol

So Juggs, BB Hood and Gambit? Sounds good.

Has Justin's system changed after this?

My team is definitely gonna be Jill/Cammy/Roll. Jill and Cammy are my favourite characters on the MvC2 roster and Roll allows me to have both of them on a team, plus using Roll is funny too.

Take a shot everytime he says "they do have an infinite". You will die.

(insert character name) IS BROKEN 😮

I don't think you have studied chun and shuma capabilities with certain top tiers. Chun just sux if she's alone, which you usually just lead with her and use assist to combo into super with. Also has niche assists herself in an overhead assist and a pretty damn good AAA. For a 1 point character, you get A FAST walker with an air dash, meaning you can do some CRAZY crossups and throw mixups. This helps you spam your assist rather safely because you can often get your assist to be behind your opponent which we all know is hard to punish. Chun also has literally almost average health lol. Shuma has the perks of having a 1 frame jab i believe which basically stops Magneto leads from just getting their turn on you first and having death setups with chaos dimension with certain assists (Blackheart-B, Venom-B, IM/WM-B). Its 3 bars, i know, but most other low tiers don't even have usable supers to begin with, so at least it has lethality. Plus getting health back from throws kinda compensates for it's lower health. That throw does some damage if you know how to mash.

godlike thumbnail

You gotta redo this for the updated list

...yeah, don't expect Roll to stay at zero. In the right setup, she becomes a chip queen. Also her lack of a hit box will annoy opponents to no end.

Watching Khaos play with Shuma these past few months, I'm ready for him to be reassigned to at least decent.

Tbh I can’t agree with all your statements I’ve been playing mvc2 since it released From high to low tier but again it’s always good to get another opinion. You do have so valid points, for example marrow just is not very good but to say shuma chun n the wolverines are bad I disagree I feel some characters ratio should be turned down like spiral, sim and other characters like magneto/sent should be turned up to like 6 Anyways like your stuff Thanks

Felicia's Please Help Me! does a lot of damage.